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[And_Gignac]

As a queer person myself I don't think Persona 5 has to do that as some sort of rule. They will include who they think works for the story. I have other media I can enjoy that features queer characters if I want to experience that type of thing.

Demanding this one-size-fits-all thing for entertainment is strange to me but many of my own queer friends partake in this behavior so it is what it is.

As a queer person myself I think we deserve representation. Persona fails in this, portraying us in homophobic ways. The frustrating thing is that they did so with Persona 2 and they were about to do it again with Yosuke in P4. I personally won't buy P6 if they don't tackle this issue.

 

[GNOSIS]

I don't expect any good LGBTQ story in Japanese games at all considering that they are very backward in this regard for a developed country.

 

[EMT0]

As a queer person myself I think we deserve representation. Persona fails in this, portraying us in homophobic ways. The frustrating thing is that they did so with Persona 2 and they were about to do it again without Yosuke in P4. I personally won't buy P6 if they don't tackle this issue.

Do you mean about to do it again with Yosuke? If that's what you mean then yeah, I agree that they'd have done something incredible if they'd followed through plus had Yosuke do a bit of soul searching as an ending to his social link. If you mean Persona 4 would have had a positive representation of gay people without Yosuke, I actually disagree, since we're talking about hypotheticals here. Without Yosuke's homophobia (plus hypothetical admittance of projection + romance option with Yu), you'd have Kanji and his ambiguous representation of male-male attraction. The game ultimately tells you 'Nah man, it's cool! Naoto was actually a chick all along!' It doesn't actually portray homosexuality positively, but instead as something that has to be begrudgingly accepted. Kanji is in all likelihood bi, but the game doesn't have him accept it or explore it any more than superficially, it just gives him an out for both him and the others to shrug and move on with their day to day lives. If you recall, a Shadows' appearance isn't a literal representation of what a person really is. In 4, they act more as a representation of what a person fears most of what they reject, extrapolating their self-doubts and inhibitions into caricatures.

If Yosuke was left intact as intended, his homophobia would have been an excellent portrayal of the daily struggles LGBTQ people face in Japan, and the ultimate revelation of his being attracted to Yu plus his projecting his own demons would have made for an excellent closer and a strong message for all audiences. Sadly, that wasn't the case.

 

[Dangansona]

Hey instead of focusing resources on a female option or doing a gay romance, in a game that has many social sim elements...

Let put money behind so many shitty animated dumb cut scene's that have fanservice.

Blah.

There is a huge different in the amount of time required to implement the things you are describing.

 

[wbEMX]

If P5 is any indication, they aren't.

That right there pissed me the fuck off. I don't mind having no queer characters in the roster. But this clichéd "representaion" of gay people is just.... fucking stupid. It's the same thing in anime. They're always either overly flamboyant, want to fuck every male they see or both.

 

[Antiwhippy]

I don't expect any good LGBTQ story in Japanese games at all considering that they are very backward in this regard for a developed country.

You should play (this is kinda heavy spoilers for the game honestly)

Spoiler

the house in fata morgana.

Nier also does queer representation very well.

 

[Burbeting]

Made a thread about this subject back when the game released.

It's a shame how poor the LGBT representation in the game was (outside Lala, she was pretty great), when the game's core themes were all about people who were oppressed. This, coupled with how gratuitious the fanservice was at points, made the core themes of the story feel hollow.

 

[Laughing Banana]

You can prooooobably frame Yusuke's homophobic scenes in p4 as him being a typical teenager who in the end came to accept Kanji anyways and included him as one of his inner circle of friends.

Tho from how they used okama jokes in p5 I guess those Yusuke scenes were nothing more than their attempt at 'comedy' anyways.... Honestly kinda surprised when the okama jokes appeared in p5.

And oh yeah, some of the conversation in this thread reminded me of this:

 

[Valkerionseven]

That right there pissed me the fuck off. I don't mind having no queer characters in the roster. But this clichéd "representaion" of gay people is just.... fucking stupid. It's the same thing in anime. They're always either overly flamboyant, want to fuck every male they see or both.

In general, 99% of the time this is how I've seen LGBT portrayed in Japanese mass media. " So ridiculous that its entertaining " is the general stance here. Its how outlyers of the norm are shown sadly. Heck try being black here and not seen as either a "fake body guard" or a "rapper." Its annoying as hell that people play up this stuff but its kinda just how it is. Its definitely a part of everyone trying to get their 15 minutes of fame on TV that caused this type of stereotype.



There isn't likely to be any introspective talks on this type of thing, and looking at it from a western point of view won't make anything happen either. But I do think we need to consider what regional differences there are in portraying, discussing, and viewing various topics because I think we all know Japan is quite different than -insert western country- Is it an excuse... kinda, but its the truth. Unless we have a serious talk in Japanese with the creative teams, and Japan as a whole for that matter, and get them to adopt a more western vision of how to portray different people... it won't change. And that imo is all other kinds of messed up, so we just have to hope things change on this side of the world to something that is more acceptable imo.

A bit of a nonsense rant but hopefully it made sense lol.

 

[snow in jamaica]

"Yosuke acts as the mouth that voices the thoughts and opinions that the player no doubt has while playing the game."

Soejima's own words on Yosuke.

 

[eyeball_kid]

That right there pissed me the fuck off. I don't mind having no queer characters in the roster. But this clichéd "representaion" of gay people is just.... fucking stupid. It's the same thing in anime. They're always either overly flamboyant, want to fuck every male they see or both.

I think this is way worse than the typical gay stereotype in anime. These guys are basically depicted as sexual predators looking to molest boys. As I said earlier, this is a kind of 1950's America depiction of gay men. It's incredibly damaging and offensive. Hashino should be ashamed of this.

 

[Antiwhippy]

"Yosuke acts as the mouth that voices the thoughts and opinions that the player no doubt has while playing the game."

Soejima's own words on Yosuke.

Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugh.

 

[Vital Tundra]

The whole heme of P5 is so shitty in practice. The fucking company with its streaming regulations on he game is literally the opposite of the what the game tells you, and the representation of homosexuals in P5 is so laughably Japanese and so tone deaf. The writers need to get their shit together if they really want to tackle heavy or interesting themes. Living in a vacuum these guys.

 

[Kinsei]

"Yosuke acts as the mouth that voices the thoughts and opinions that the player no doubt has while playing the game."

Soejima's own words on Yosuke.

Ugh fuck that.

 

[MiguelMexMIstery]

Thinking that kanji was going to rape him just because he slept in the same tent.

To be fair, it's just like snow in jamaica said:

"Yosuke acts as the mouth that voices the thoughts and opinions that the player no doubt has while playing the game."

Soejima's own words on Yosuke.

The moment Yu gained a voice in the P4 anime he joined Yosuke in the camp conversation.

"There are some things that I don't wish to try."

 

[Curufinwe]

People really get mad when game developers don't share their exact political and cultural beliefs.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

Isn't that age 30?!

You're thinking about Wizards or Gay Death. Women get a 5 year penalty for some stupid reason.

 

[Astral Dog]

Interesting i never thought Persona 5 was trying to champion anything 🤔

 

[ShironRedshift]

People really get mad when game developers don't share their exact political and cultural beliefs.

My humanity ain't some fucking political belief. I ain't a pedophile or stalker just because I like men, and that shit does lasting damage by reinforcing stereotypes about gay/bisexual men instead of fighting them. Which is just terribly ironic in a game about adults being terrible and abusing their power against those that have none/comparatively little that the developers would abuse their power to reinforce negative stereotypes about gay men instead of sticking up for the oppressed and using their power more carefully.

But no, it ain't about them not sharing by exact political beliefs. It's about my humanity not being up for debate, and fuck anyone who thinks otherwise and reinforces that shit. That has nothing to do with politics. At least, it's not something that should be up for debate in anyway, but alas...

 

[King Tubby]

Interesting i never thought Persona 5 was trying to champion anything 🤔

The main theme of the game is fighting back against an oppressive society.

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

People really get mad when game developers don't share their exact political and cultural beliefs.

Which ones are you referring to?

 

[duckroll]

"Yosuke acts as the mouth that voices the thoughts and opinions that the player no doubt has while playing the game."

Soejima's own words on Yosuke.

Throw Persona 4 into the incinerator chute. Gross.

 

[Antiwhippy]

To be fair, it's just like snow in jamaica said:

The moment Yu gained a voice in the P4 anime he joined Yosuke in the camp conversation.

"There are some things that I don't wish to try."

That... doesn't make it better.

 

[MiguelMexMIstery]

That... doesn't make it better.

Yeah it doesn't, just saying that some of the scenes people hate about Yosuke seem to be result of the protagonist being silent.

 

[Isotropy]

People really get mad when game developers don't share their exact political and cultural beliefs.

My humanity ain't some fucking political belief. I ain't a pedophile or stalker just because I like men, and that shit does lasting damage by reinforcing stereotypes about gay/bisexual men instead of fighting them. Which is just terribly ironic in a game about adults being terrible and abusing their power against those that have none/comparatively little that the developers would abuse their power to reinforce negative stereotypes about gay men instead of sticking up for the oppressed and using their power more carefully.

But no, it ain't about them not sharing by exact political beliefs. It's about my humanity not being up for debate, and fuck anyone who thinks otherwise and reinforces that shit. That has nothing to do with politics. At least, it's not something that should be up for debate in anyway, but alas...

Great response to an absolute shit-tier post.

 

[OrionX]

My humanity ain't some fucking political belief. I ain't a pedophile or stalker just because I like men, and that shit does lasting damage by reinforcing stereotypes about gay/bisexual men instead of fighting them. Which is just terribly ironic in a game about adults being terrible and abusing their power against those that have none/comparatively little that the developers would abuse their power to reinforce negative stereotypes about gay men instead of sticking up for the oppressed and using their power more carefully.

But no, it ain't about them not sharing by exact political beliefs. It's about my humanity not being up for debate, and fuck anyone who thinks otherwise and reinforces that shit. That has nothing to do with politics. At least, it's not something that should be up for debate in anyway, but alas...

This. So much this. It's just about respect and treating people like human beings.

And like, I would never demand that a developer include a gay person in their game, but if they do, and they choose to release that game all over the world, then it's damn sure open to criticism from all sources, regardless of "cultural differences."

 

[chrominance]

Yeah it doesn't, just saying that some of the scenes people hate about Yosuke seem to be result of the protagonist being silent.

Yeah, if anything it confirms the idea that it's not just Yosuke who sucks at being considerate, it's the game itself. (Or, if you want to be super generous, just the anime.)

 

[EmiPrime]

This is why I will never buy Persona 4 and 5 despite all the good word of mouth. I can almost tolerate erasure but I won't tolerate the "gay men are sexual predators" trope, that crosses the line. Shame on the colossal fuckwits at Atlus/Sega for preserving it in their localisations and the original writers for writing it in the first place.

 

[NESpowerhouse]

Not games, but Sailor Moon and Cardcaptor Sakura had amazing gay representation in the 90s. I think Japan had a massive conservative shift in the last 20 years though.

Not to mention Utena. That show was something else.

 

[SephLuis]

My humanity ain't some fucking political belief. I ain't a pedophile or stalker just because I like men, and that shit does lasting damage by reinforcing stereotypes about gay/bisexual men instead of fighting them. Which is just terribly ironic in a game about adults being terrible and abusing their power against those that have none/comparatively little that the developers would abuse their power to reinforce negative stereotypes about gay men instead of sticking up for the oppressed and using their power more carefully.

But no, it ain't about them not sharing by exact political beliefs. It's about my humanity not being up for debate, and fuck anyone who thinks otherwise and reinforces that shit. That has nothing to do with politics. At least, it's not something that should be up for debate in anyway, but alas...

There is another character is the game that is okama IIRC and the dev team did not used her in any scene like that. She's the owner of the bar where Lala goes and they don't throw any jabs at her from what I remember.

So the question is, did the developer did this thinking it would be a funny and harmless scene or out of spite for a minority ? There are all kinds of humor and, some of them, will be at the cost of someone else. There's then a chance that if you start filtering humor, the person might be scared to do anything at all. My point is, don't crucify the developers for one small thing within the game (small in the sense that the scene is very short if compared to, well, the rest of the entire game).

While I hate that game with a freaking passion, Akiba's Beat had an awesome okama character which was acting as an informant for the team and owner of a bar. It was the character that would say the right things at the right times to push the team to do the right thing. I was frankly surprised because it's a legit good character, in my opinion. This is just one recent case where I think japanese developers are, at least, trying.

 

[JCG]

Even after reading the article linked in the OP, I'd say "shouldn't" rather than "can't" here. The game didn't obligatorily have to include queer characters in order to make its point, one way or another, but I can agree that such a thing might have been helpful.

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

Not to mention Utena. That show was something else.

It's very odd that anime and manga have tons of gay and lesbian relationships, yet actual real life doesn't seem to reflect it in japan. Although, a great deal of it seems to be wish fufillment fantasy by folks not of the gender the characters are, ie women writing abotu gay men or men writing about lesbian women.

And Utena is an amazing show the likes of which we will probably never see again in anime, or heck, TV in general.