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"Persona 5 Can't Champion Marginalized Underdogs Without Queer Characters"

fhqwhgads

Member
The reveal functions as a "gotcha!" moment of levity rather than actually treating Erica as a fully functional trans woman with her own problems.

Her "friends" constantly try to meddle in her sex life and try to scare away Toby a guy she is interested in (who is also interested in her). After she has sex with Toby he finds out she is trans and is clearly unhappy with the situation. This is clearly falling into the shitty "trap" stereotype. Towards the end of the game she starts having the nightmares meant to punish men.
Goddamn it Atlus. That was my main positive thing I had to say about them in all this.
Just solidifies that they need to stop including this kind of stuff if they're going to treat it like dirt the moment they get the slightest bit of positive light on the matter. Thanks for the info.
 

Isotropy

Member
Yeah the "outcast" thing never really clicked.

I read a post, can't remember where, lampooning outcast characters in young adult fiction - something along the lines of "oh, he's a straight middle class boy who's SLIGHTLY SKINNIER than the other boys! Oh his tribulations!"

Persona could go a lot further in reflecting the breadth of difficulties teenagers face.
 
Anyone who tries to claim that Persona 5 was about "outcasts" kind of missed the point of Persona 5. The game was about imbalanced power structures and abuse. Some of the characters coincidentally happened to be outcasts, but that wasn't the main driving theme behind the narrative.
 

IrishNinja

Member
it's been years for me since 4, what were Yosuke's more homophobic moments?

also yeah i too thought they hinted with Kanji, but didn't Naoto have some genderqueer elements or am i remembering that wrong
 

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
Anyone who tries to claim that Persona 5 was about "outcasts" kind of missed the point of Persona 5. The game was about imbalanced power structures and abuse. Some of the characters coincidentally happened to be outcasts, but that wasn't the main driving theme behind the narrative.

Uh, people who are marginalised by the power structures they live in are outcasts.
 

Dantis

Member
Anyone who tries to claim that Persona 5 was about "outcasts" kind of missed the point of Persona 5. The game was about imbalanced power structures and abuse. Some of the characters coincidentally happened to be outcasts, but that wasn't the main driving theme behind the narrative.
Yep! P5 is about how the world is what we, collectively, make of it. If you accept things as they are and let bad people step on you, things will never change.
 
I haven't played Persona games but the SMT series at least often deals with themes of class and social inequality without actually talking about gender, race or sexuality, which is a shame.
 

PK Gaming

Member
That's the joke. There aren't any.

I can't think of one well written LGBT+ character in Japanese video games that is explicitly and proudly queer

The most prominent one that comes to mind is ironically from the Persona series (lol). Jun from Persona 2: Innocent Sin.

Jun is gay as hell, but the game allows him to be more than that, with him having traits that are very un-stereotypical. You can also make the protagonist date him, and they're not ambiguous about their relationship. Like, other characters are cool with his homosexuality. Even Lisa (Basically Ann Takamaki, but with better writing) is okay with it, despite how much she loves the protagonist.

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The earlier Persona games were handled by a different team, hence the completely different takes on homosexuality.
 

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
it's been years for me since 4, what were Yosuke's more homophobic moments?

also yeah i too thought they hinted with Kanji, but didn't Naoto have some genderqueer elements or am i remembering that wrong

Thinking that kanji was going to rape him just because he slept in the same tent.
 

TheLight

Member
Uh, people who are marginalised by the power structures they live in are outcasts.
He just said that the game was about power abuse and societal structure. Sure each protagonist is an outcast in their own way but it's all based off of the story arcs persona 5 chose to tell through each palace.
 
it's been years for me since 4, what were Yosuke's more homophobic moments?

also yeah i too thought they hinted with Kanji, but didn't Naoto have some genderqueer elements or am i remembering that wrong
The thing with Naoto is that she is fully capable of embracing her feminine side when given the opportunity. She isn't dressing herself ambiguously because she's struggling with her gender identity, she's doing it because she feels that her male dominant career field would not treat her seriously if she dressed and acted feminine. It's no surprise that her shadow is a robot that outright claims that her ambiguous identity is framed by her desire to excel at her career.

Playing through Persona 4 recently, I was reminded that Naoto's dungeon had the theme of surgically enhancing robots to be something else entirely... it didn't sit right with me.

Persona 4 could have been something had they made Kanji a gay pansexual man and Naoto a trans boy.... but it fell flat on its face with the messy ass dungeons and dialogues that both had.
The most prominent one that comes to mind is ironically from the Persona series (lol). Jun from Persona 2: Innocent Sin.

Jun is gay as hell, but the game allows him to be more than that, with him having traits that are very un-stereotypical. You can also make the protagonist date him, and they're not ambiguous about their relationship. Like, other characters are cool with his homosexuality. Even Lisa (Basically Ann Takamaki, but with better writing) is okay with it, despite how much she loves the protagonist.



The earlier Persona games were handled by a different team, hence the completely different takes on homosexuality.
I've never played either of the Persona 2 duology because it hasn't been on any consoles or handhelds that I've owned. I'll look into playing it one day.
 

cj_iwakura

Member
The thing with Naoto is that she is fully capable of embracing her feminine side when given the opportunity. She isn't dressing herself ambiguously because she's struggling with her gender identity, she's doing it because she feels that her male dominant career field would not treat her seriously if she dressed and acted feminine. It's no surprise that her shadow is a robot that outright claims that her ambiguous identity is framed by her desire to excel at her career.

Playing through Persona 4 recently, I was reminded that Naoto's dungeon had the theme of surgically enhancing robots to be something else entirely... it didn't sit right with me.

Persona 4 could have been something had they made Kanji a gay pansexual man and Naoto a trans boy.... but it fell flat on its face with the messy ass dungeons and dialogues that both had.

I've never played either of the Persona 2 duology because it hasn't been on any consoles or handhelds that I've owned. I'll look into playing it one day.
No PSP, Vita, or PS1/2/3?
 

IrishNinja

Member
Thinking that kanji was going to rape him just because he slept in the same tent.

The thing with Naoto is that she is fully capable of embracing her feminine side when given the opportunity. She isn't dressing herself ambiguously because she's struggling with her gender identity, she's doing it because she feels that her male dominant career field would not treat her seriously if she dressed and acted feminine. It's no surprise that her shadow is a robot that outright claims that her ambiguous identity is framed by her desire to excel at her career.

Playing through Persona 4 recently, I was reminded that Naoto's dungeon had the theme of surgically enhancing robots to be something else entirely... it didn't sit right with me.

Persona 4 could have been something had they made Kanji a gay pansexual man and Naoto a trans boy.... but it fell flat on its face with the messy ass dungeons and dialogues that both had.

ah, damn...yeah, troubling all around then. as a yakuza fan, it's far more transphobic...but yeah, at best, these were missed opportunities.
 

EMT0

Banned
You can't expect that to be taken seriously when out of persona 3-5 (admittedly assuming on 5, I got a bit over halfway then my ps4 hard drive failed and I've not restarted yet...), he's the closest any non-mc gets to having a canon love interest with Naoto.

At most you can maybe argue he is Bi. But if p4 has a gay character in the cast, it's Yosuke if anyone.

Dingdingding. If they had never cut out Yosuke being romancable(the lines were voiced and everything, go youtube it), I'd be 110% OK with his casual 'hurrhurr' homophobia, because it'd have made Yosuke the most human and relatable character in the cast to a large number of people who have bashed gay people in the past out of ignorance and misconceptions but don't hold actual malice in their heart, whether they've grown out of it or not. And even more so for those who remain in denial about actually being gay. That said, Yosuke, even if he isn't gay, is still one of the best written characters in video games. Yes, despite his gay bashing, and actually, because of it. Hear me out.

When was the last time you played a game where the characters weren't perfect, and what flaws they had were superficial and quirky, something that could be played up for laughs? For example; Ryuji from Persona 5 is a loud hothead and can be simple at times, but you know he means well. He can be Japan-style anime pervy at times, but through his interactions with Ann and the others over the course of their social links/main plot, you know that he clearly holds respect for them. In other words, Ryuji is only flawed when comedy demands it. Otherwise, he's perfect in his own quirky way. He has no serious personal failings. He's handsome, he's likable, and he fills a niche in the Phantom Thieves.

Alright, now Yosuke. He's friendly, he's likable, he never lets you down. He's the right hand of Narukami throughout Persona 4 and the guy who acts as the voice for our otherwise semi-functional mute of a protagonist. He bickers with Chie, he has a pervy side played up for laughs (fucking awful Golden addons aside). But, and here's the thing, despite how likable and reliable he is, he has a pretty obvious flaw. This dude just won't shut the fuck up and take some social cues when he gets annoying to others. This ties into how his joking about is how he tries to be personable and likable to others in his social link, but eh, spoilers. This is shown in his constant bickering with Chie, with how Saki seems to have very little patience with him, etc. But most notably to a lot of people, is how he plays off Kanji's insecurities to crack jokes. Whether Kanji is gay or not, that's for others to debate. But Yosuke has a) No ability to tell that he's crossing a line and b) Zero actual malice behind his actions, just his own insecurities being projected.

Because as we know, Yu and Yosuke are tight. They're besties. And considering the content that was cut, Yosuke has some feelings for Yu that make him uncomfortable, even if there's no actual confession in the end. Yosuke's homophobia is based in insecurity, combined with his need to constantly keep people laughing resulting in bad jokes that just make us all shake our heads in frustration. Yosuke is the most human member of the cast because of it. He's obviously flawed in ways that can objectively be changed for the better. Unlike Yukiko(that quirky laugh!), Chie(MEAT!) and Teddie(I was raised in a TV World by my Sensei!), Yosuke's obviously flawed despite having redeeming qualities. And based on Yosuke being clearly displayed as good-natured, it's a safe bet that with time he will change. It'd be nice if he did it over the course of Persona 4, but then, isn't that too easy? Persona 4 is already bordering on wish-fulfillment where the protagonist is the cure to everything wrong with everybody ever, what's one more thing, right? Eh. Come now. Are you telling me that you've outgrown serious personal failings in the span of 8 months? We should be applauding the Persona team for having restraint in fixing everything and not inching the protagonist deeper and closer to Marie Sue territory.

So in summary. Yosuke's probably the best portrayal the team has ever written of an actual teenager, because he has very obvious failings despite his general good nature and likability. He's childish, he's insecure, and he's casually homophobic. By the time the game ends, he's clearly striding to overcome all of these things. I like Yosuke despite all of these things, and I appreciate Yosuke all the more because of it although I'll admit that it comes across as an accident that he turned out well, rather than actually intentional without the added context of the cut content. That said, I'll defend Yosuke's homophobia, but I'm not touching Japan's 'teehee boobies, bathouses, panty shots' bullshit that he, Teddie, and occasionally Kanji dip into with a ten foot pole. There's teenage stupidity and childishness over sex, then there's whatever the hell Japan keeps peddling in manga, anime, and video games. And it'll be a cold day in hell before I express anything but disgust at Atlus' portrayal of gay people in Persona 5.

EDIT:
Yosuke is only written well if we could actually rebuke him.

As it is persona 4 is a passive endorsement that his behaviour is just boy being boys which is a fucking destructive narrative and entirely against the message of persona 4.

This is also true to an extent. It's frustrating and stupid that you can't challenge Yosuke's childishness, and to a lesser extent the others' acting out. It honestly feels at times that the more you analyze Persona 4, the more some of its highs were accidents and in no way deliberate. My interpretation of Yosuke is easy as hell to overlook when taking him at face value.
 
I mean, it's a good game.

It's just not the driving social commentary that people wanted.
I think it's better to say it's not the driving universal social commentary that people wanted. It's closer to the following if anything:
P5 in general didn't really explore disenfranchisement of minorities, be it racial/sexual/etc. and focused more about abuse of authority positions and corruption. I assumed it was a Japanese thing that "rebelling against society" was interpreted more as fighting against rigid social hierarchies instead of challenging bigotry that's more common in the US.
As far as the article goes, my biggest issue is the portrayal of LGBTQ issues as the only requirement for a story to be social commentary about young adults. I'm not defending P5's take on queer issues in any way, but as someone who has seen his disabled brother be condescended to and outright ignored for years, it drives me up the fucking wall when fair treatment of LGBTQ issues is presented the sole criteria for how inclusive a story is. I'm all for more and better treatment of LGBTQ characters, but that's not the only group that's largely ignored or maligned in modern stories.
 

ZeroGravity

Member
P5 in general didn't really explore disenfranchisement of minorities, be it racial/sexual/etc. and focused more about abuse of authority positions and corruption. I assumed it was a Japanese thing that "rebelling against society" was interpreted more as fighting against rigid social hierarchies instead of challenging bigotry that's more common in the US.
Yes, this was exactly it, and it did this extremely well, although a lot of its themes are very much universal. Just because it didn't represent "x minority group" specifically doesn't detract from that.
 

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
Yosuke is only written well if we could actually rebuke him.

As it is persona 4 is a passive endorsement that his behaviour is just boy being boys which is a fucking destructive narrative and entirely against the message of persona 4.
 
P5 in general didn't really explore disenfranchisement of minorities, be it racial/sexual/etc. and focused more about abuse of authority positions and corruption. I assumed it was a Japanese thing that "rebelling against society" was interpreted more as fighting against rigid social hierarchies instead of challenging bigotry that's more common in the US.

This would be my takeaway as well and I felt it tackled its intended focus very well.
 

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
Problem with the whole challenging social hierarchies thing is that persona 5 already undermined itself by confirming to tied social stereotypes.
 

Blindy

Member
Could care less if they tackle issues like this or not, as long as the game is good and the quality of the game is good that's all I really care about. If it has a great gay representation, that's cool. Doesn't make me think of the game any more or less.
 
That doesn't seem 100% accurate, just going off what I've seen since being here since 2003
LGBT+ representation is rising apparently however:
The media representation of LGBT figures influences Japanese people’s attitude towards sexual minorities. Despite a growing number of queer celebrities seems to suggest Japan’s friendliness to a variety of sexual orientations and gender identities, most of these famous LGBT people are often limited to onee characters who are presented as overtly feminine in their behaviours and in the way they talk (Hongo, 2008). Furthermore, gay personalities, in many TV shows, are often portrayed as flamboyant and comical characters, who are constantly ridiculed by dominant heterosexual people (Makino, 2010; Shoushi, 2008). These images create a stereotype among Japanese people that all gay men act in the way that the media represent or ‘idealise’ sexual minorities (Watanabe, 2012). For example, a TV show “Naruhodo High School” (Akimoto, 2011) casted gay personalities whose reactions to several stimuli (e.g. electric-shock pen) were judged if they conformed to how ‘a real woman’ would respond. If they displayed any masculine demeanours, they were labelled as a ‘fake onee’, and thus, considered ‘non-gay’ individuals in Japanese definition (Brazor, 2012).
https://tujprejudice.wordpress.com/2013/11/26/lgbt-people-in-japanese-mass-media/

They're caricaturized, which is bad.
Could care less if they tackle issues like this or not, as long as the game is good and the quality of the game is good that's all I really care about. If it has a great gay representation, that's cool. Doesn't make me think of the game any more or less.
Meh. I played through Persona 5 and I loved it. Good aesthetics, music, etc. for the most part. Your apathy towards this is probably because representation is more than likely really positive and innumerable in your case.

Sexual minorities can enjoy media that doesn't represent them because almost always no media represents queer folk. However, that doesn't mean that representation should be treated like it isn't shit when it's super important for people to see themselves in something that they enjoy.
 

PK Gaming

Member

LotusHD

Banned
Could care less if they tackle issues like this or not, as long as the game is good and the quality of the game is good that's all I really care about. If it has a great gay representation, that's cool. Doesn't make me think of the game any more or less.

Feels like a weird thing to say about this game in particular, but alright.
 
LGBT+ representation is rising apparently however:
https://tujprejudice.wordpress.com/2013/11/26/lgbt-people-in-japanese-mass-media/

They're caricaturized, which is bad.

It's definitely true the mainstream media over here only pushes the most stereotypical depictions but I'm talking about street level everyday life as well. There are pretty famous gay districts in most major cities as well as a more general comfort with gender fluid in more historically based entertainment


This is specifically about bullying. Of course there are people being mistreated but it's not state or societally sanctioned
 
Way back when I got the game, a friend described it to me as a game about rebellion written by privileged people who never needed to rebel.

The more I play, the more I've come to agree with her
 

DeSolos

Member
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If P5 is any indication, they aren't.

This was definitely disgusting. I like that it served as a subversion of Ryuji and MC who usually are the ones hitting on girls, but it shouldn't be at the expense of a marginalized group.

They could've gotten away with like, I don't know a creepy older lady hitting on them or that one stalker girl from school.
 

DVCY201

Member
I greatly enjoyed P5, easily a contender for GOTY, but there are some glaring narrative shortcomings that hold it back. I was disappointed that the theme wasn't extrapolated further, and developed with more interesting characters. It largely focused on "rebels" within a strict hierarchical system, and for that it succeeds.

I think the inclusion of a more diverse cast would've been interesting
 

PK Gaming

Member
This is specifically about bullying. Of course there are people being mistreated but it's not state or societally sanctioned

The point is that LGBT people are treated terribly either way. Whether through being completely ignored or harassed, there's a legitimate problem here. Progress is happening, but it's slow.
 
She isn't dressing herself ambiguously because she's struggling with her gender identity, she's doing it because she feels that her male dominant career field would not treat her seriously if she dressed and acted feminine. It's no surprise that her shadow is a robot that outright claims that her ambiguous identity is framed by her desire to excel at her career.

Is this actually addressed very much? I only recall the police NPCs belittling Naoto based on her age, and the only thing known about her mother is that she was a successful detective.
 

OrionX

Member
While I wouldn't phrase it as something Atlus "must" do, it's certainly something that would mean a lot to me. Considering that the romance options aren't very detailed and aren't acknowledged in the main storyline, it would've taken very little effort to include just one in P5. Yusuke was only a couple of lines away from being enough for me.

The fact that they included such hurtful stereotypes though is what really bothers me. Because to me that says they do, in fact, remember that gay people exist, it just isn't worth taking them seriously or approaching the subject in a meaningful way. Persona will likely always be one of my favorite game series, I just wish it felt like they loved me back a little more sometimes.
 

ghibli99

Member
She plays into the "Christmas Cake" stigma, meaning women who "expire" after the age of 25. So you're supposed to laugh at her age complex and how pathetic she is preying on high school boys because being older than 25 means she's too much of a "grandma" to be attractive to men.
Can't tell if serious... but if so, that sure as hell wasn't communicated in the game (or implied). And it's a terrible thing to begin with.
 
The further I get from P5, the more I realize I'm never going to think about the game ever again, unprompted. It lasted 115 hours without managing to really say anything.

yep. p5 is the only persona game i've ever simply walk away from, once finished, & never really thought about afterwards :) ...
 
Can't tell if serious... but if so, that sure as hell wasn't communicated in the game (or implied). And it's a terrible thing to begin with.

It's a stigma in Japan and she has an age complex and IIRC frets over not getting dates. And I mean yeah, everything about her is awful and there are a lot of bad implications. P4 is a remarkably hateful game.
 

SephLuis

Member
I think it's better to say it's not the driving universal social commentary that people wanted. It's closer to the following if anything:

As far as the article goes, my biggest issue is the portrayal of LGBTQ issues as the only requirement for a story to be social commentary about young adults. I'm not defending P5's take on queer issues in any way, but as someone who has seen his disabled brother be condescended to and outright ignored for years, it drives me up the fucking wall when fair treatment of LGBTQ issues is presented the sole criteria for how inclusive a story is. I'm all for more and better treatment of LGBTQ characters, but that's not the only group that's largely ignored or maligned in modern stories.

Absolutely correct;

I can't think of a game that will ever tackle universal problems because it would be shallow. Persona 5 focuses on social problems regarding hierarchy and corruption, not bigotry.

I also agree that if a game is ever going to tackle issues regarding minorities, then they cannot forget those who have other types of problems instead of just LGBTQ characters.
 

Sayad

Member
She plays into the "Christmas Cake" stigma, meaning women who "expire" after the age of 25. So you're supposed to laugh at her age complex and how pathetic she is preying on high school boys because being older than 25 means she's too much of a "grandma" to be attractive to men.
Isn't that age 30?!
 

PSqueak

Banned
They....they think there aren't gay characters in Persona 5?

...


You know what, it's for the best they don't know what the gay characters in P5 were like.
 

DylanEno

Member
Not reading bc spoilers but based on the title, I disagree. You don't need a queer character to champion marginalized underdogs, like what :s Come on. I'd love to see more LGBT representation in Persona, but it not having a strong queer character doesn't make what it's going for entirely worthless, lol.

That being said, the beach scene was absolutely disgusting and the most tone deaf thing they could've possibly done to represent homosexuality. Completely embarrassing and I wish they could patch that shit out tbh

Also, regarding Yosuke's homophobia - I felt like it was a very apt character trait for him and it was a good representation of why that shit is bad. They never glorified him as a character - if anything, he was constantly the butt of the joke and the biggest shitlord of the entire group. If they made him cool like Yu, that would've been a serious problem, but no: they made him a bumbling, stereotypical and insecure dudebro (as far as dudebros go in persona land) that consistently proved a case for why homophobia is such a shitty thing.
 

Big0Bear

Member
I get why people would like to see this but I think a non white biracial character would be more outcast than a LGBT person. Other than miss Japan a couple years nonwhite biracial kids have it pretty hard out here and I think that would be a much better narrative.

If it took place in America I think and LGBT character would fit better being that there is a greater feeling of lonelyness dude to the society around.
 

duckroll

Member
The fact that you can't be gay but can date your teacher in this always bewildered me.

It doesn't bewilder me, but it is disappointing. Just realize that the dating stuff in Persona 5 isn't out to make any sort of statement about social taboos or anything but are entirely meant to be fetish pandering. Hot for teacher. Hot for doctor. Hot for School Council President. Etc. It's pure fanservice and these are things they think teenagers will find sexy. Sadly in Japan there is nothing sexy about being gay. It's seen as being weird and awkward, so homosexuality is used as a gag in the game. Persona 5 might be very serious about having themes about oppression and fighting against authority, but in the end it is also a Japanese game for the mainstream Japanese audience.
 
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