There'll likely be new people for the next one with Hashino working on Re:Fantasy. That said, it's unknown if it'll be better since a part of the reason the writing's been praised for the past Persona games is that Hashino tends to be pretty passionate about the subjects he tries to portray in the games.
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"Persona 5 Can't Champion Marginalized Underdogs Without Queer Characters"
- Thread starter WrenchNinja
- Start date
There'll likely be new people for the next one with Hashino working on Re:Fantasy. That said, it's unknown if it'll be better since a part of the reason the writing's been praised for the past Persona games is that Hashino tends to be pretty passionate about the subjects he tries to portray in the games.
Chihaya could've been borderline ok if she was like the only adult relationship you could enter, where they have the one relationship where you seriously consider if it's okay for you to be with this older woman since it's a slight age difference. Where you engage with the ethics of pursuing it. Instead it's her, your teacher who knows better, your doctor, and a woman that drinks a lot. There's no good faith to be had there, they just wanted to pander.
I also figure it's partially because a lot of the people playing Persona 5 even in Japan are people in their 20s.
Poor GRIMES
Banned
I think there's a precedent for this characterization in Japan. Female japanese high school gangs date back to the 70s with their affiliations to the Yakuza and such.
It's not just LGBTQ... I didn't like that in P4, the character Hanako was basically just portrayed and characterized as a fat slob for the player to laugh at or think badly about. There was nothing redeeming about her character arc. They could have easily made her one of the most memorable characters had they given her a meaningful social link.
Same thing with the uncomfortably inappropriate Kashiwagi-sensei, who just plays into the stereotype of teachers seducing underage students. I love that game, but stuff like this definitely taints them.
Same thing with the uncomfortably inappropriate Kashiwagi-sensei, who just plays into the stereotype of teachers seducing underage students. I love that game, but stuff like this definitely taints them.
The people that play the game can ultimately justify dating whoever. Like I myself am older in real life, and I like the women, so if I wanted to, I would. That said, I just don't feel like the developers should've given us the option to date them, especially considering the first arc. (Yes I know it isn't a 1:1 situation) Just felt like they wanted to have their cake and eat it too.
Or better yet, time to be a college student if they really wanna stick to letting people date older women.
cj_iwakura
Member
Equal representation died with Persona 2 and Tadashi's departure.
Someone please find if this is true.
Yeah. It was an interview where they said they never experienced female friends growing up and figured it's not as unusual with newer generations. It kinda shows too. In Persona 4, the girls in the group pretty much tend to do their own thing in events. In Persona 5, it usually has more the whole group mixed together hanging out rather than separating itself.
I was just thinking about this, with people talking about how embarrassing the beach scene from Persona 5 is, I got thinking about the bad moments in Persona 4 and the Pageant scene came right to my mind.
Not only does it have LOL FAT PEOPLE with Hanako, but it also features them forcing Naoto to act and dress stereotypically feminine just because she's got large breasts, completely ignoring her entire character arc and thinking it's completely fine to have fanservice for her now that they stopped focusing on her story, but the worst of all is the crossdressing humour. A completely tasteless juvenile gag from the same company that had one of the extremely rare depictions of a Trans person in Catherine.
It's like I said, Atlus always goes for the absolute worst jokes and scenes they can think of for some reason that always manage to ruin any kind of positive effect that the focus on these issues could've had. All because they wanted some cheap laughs because in Japan this stuff flies with no questions asked.
Persona is one of my favourite series so I was really hoping they would have LBGT representation in 5 like they did in Persona 2. I know people like to bring up 4 but they completely mishandle those stories towards the end so calling them representation isn't a good thing.
5 is one of my favourite games but stereotypes of gay men and adults preying on students was disgusting and embarrassing for such a good game.
5 is one of my favourite games but stereotypes of gay men and adults preying on students was disgusting and embarrassing for such a good game.
Honestly, even without the context of queer characters, the whole theme in P5 just kind of falls flat and looks silly. Might be an issue of the translation but each time someone would blurt out about the 'rotten adults' or w/e, it made me roll my eyes. Not to mention Talented Artist, Heiress, Teen Model, and Student Council President are maybe not the most relatable archetypes for this sort of story.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Eh, she's ascribing a lot to the game through a personal lens but whatevs
Honestly it would have been REALLY cool if they had a lesbian or gay character, and if it tied into their story of them being an outcast. I have pretty a pretty limited idea of how Japan treats homosexuality, but based on a few documentaries I've seen, it seems like being gay in Japan is pretty raw deal. Like you are really shunned by society, and people are embarrassed over the topic and don't want to discuss it. While the game could have benefited from the inclusion of a queer character (and I would have certainly endorsed it), I still can't see a place like Japan being progressive enough on this front until society starts to catch up a little.
To be fair I do absolutely think Anne is an acceptable role considering she is being
sexually abused and harassed.
The Yakuza series actually has more trans representation than any other game series I can think of.
Unfortunately they also have Michiru. Who is secretly kind of a badass but has goofy 'run away from the transvestite' gameplay. But there's like 4 other trans characters in the series and are handled much better.
Unfortunately they also have Michiru. Who is secretly kind of a badass but has goofy 'run away from the transvestite' gameplay. But there's like 4 other trans characters in the series and are handled much better.
TetraGenesis
Member
Agreed.
The two gay characters were horrible caricatures.
And I felt like the game shat all over its own development with Ann because you get the Protagonist and Ryuji pressuring her to get nude for a stranger to get what they want.
I finished the cruise ship level but stopped during the waiting period. Realised I didn't really care about the characters. They were all spokes to the protagonist's hub but he was a blank slate character.
And the way the confident system works means that there's no meaningful interaction between characters other than the protagonist one-on-one.
I agree with the article. The concept that the cast were outcasts doesn't really work.
And I felt like the game shat all over its own development with Ann because you get the Protagonist and Ryuji pressuring her to get nude for a stranger to get what they want.
I finished the cruise ship level but stopped during the waiting period. Realised I didn't really care about the characters. They were all spokes to the protagonist's hub but he was a blank slate character.
And the way the confident system works means that there's no meaningful interaction between characters other than the protagonist one-on-one.
I agree with the article. The concept that the cast were outcasts doesn't really work.
TissueBox
Member
It's more a commentary on the sociopolitical climate of Japan and the affected youth than anything.
Poor GRIMES
Banned
Student Council President is fine.
Makoto touches on having to continually keep up appearances and how shitty it was for her to be doing that, denying her true self in the process.
Teen Model was perfect as stated above.
Talented Artist... wew there's a lot to unpack there. Growing up with the "artsy crowd" myself and seeing how artsy people tend to reside outside the fringes of what's normal in society and whatnot is acceptable for the themes.
Heiress is a bit of a jump. But the
arranged marriage to keep the family in a higher tiered caste
I love Persona but it has a ton of room for improvement. 4 and 5 (and 3 to a lesser extent IMO) really want to provide meaningful commentary but they just...don't. Adding LGBTQ+ and disabled characters would really help. It's bizarre because the games seem to want to have their cake and eat it too with regards to pushing the envelope socially while also not pushing it at all. Persona is a great opportunity for progressive commentary, but ultimately they say less than the more structurally rigid mainline SMT games.
Phrozenflame500
Member
P5 in general didn't really explore disenfranchisement of minorities, be it racial/sexual/etc. and focused more about abuse of authority positions and corruption. I assumed it was a Japanese thing that "rebelling against society" was interpreted more as fighting against rigid social hierarchies instead of challenging bigotry that's more common in the US.
This actually seems like a good 'summing up' statement for Persona 5.
Linkstrikesback
Member
This is the same series that had a scene which basically amounted to "Isn't it funny that the guys almost slept with some trans people?" Also Erica isn't what I would call good representation.
M0nochromatic
Member
Huh, Persona really peaked with 2. It's a shame they can't get whoever made that one back in the saddle.
The script is definitely part of why it fell flat for me. Initially I was lax on it because they're in high school, so it makes sense for it to sound incredibly corny. But when the game is as long it is, you can only take so much.
Could you go into detail here? I've honestly never played Catherine and I've only heard about them through articles on the matter.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Yeah, especially since the county is 95% Japanese. You're not going to get American style dynamics in a very Japanese game set in Japan, written by 30-40 year old Japanese men.
Also, going by the excerpts I've seen I'm sure the loc does the already somewhat basic script no favors
Poor GRIMES
Banned
The reveal functions as a "gotcha!" moment of levity rather than actually treating Erica as a fully functional trans woman with her own problems.
This isn't even a "lol Japan" thing. Atlus is laughably behind when it comes to portraying queerness in general. The fact that Persona 5 doesn't even address it is beyond messed up. It's a game that calls out a bunch of prominent issues in Japanese culture, but conveniently ignores a rather big one. And the homophobic jokes on top of that... Literally every other major developer has moved on from that garbage. It's pathetic that Atlus still indulges in it.
This isn't even remotely true
A voice director telling Troy Baker to play Kanji as a gay person = / = Hashino telling him that. Not only that, but Troy Baker definitely played up how "gay" Kanji was.
I see this repeated constantly and it's incredibly annoying. You should know by now they don't respect homosexuality, so why give them the benefit of the doubt? It was something they played with and moved on. This narrative that Kanji was intended to be gay will always be bullshit.
Here's proof, straight from the databook:
People need to stop taking P4 shadows as literal facts.
This isn't even remotely true
A voice director telling Troy Baker to play Kanji as a gay person = / = Hashino telling him that. Not only that, but Troy Baker definitely played up how "gay" Kanji was.
I see this repeated constantly and it's incredibly annoying. You should know by now they don't respect homosexuality, so why give them the benefit of the doubt? It was something they played with and moved on. This narrative that Kanji was intended to be gay will always be bullshit.
Here's proof, straight from the databook:
People need to stop taking P4 shadows as literal facts.
snow in jamaica
Member
She plays into the "Christmas Cake" stigma, meaning women who "expire" after the age of 25. So you're supposed to laugh at her age complex and how pathetic she is preying on high school boys because being older than 25 means she's too much of a "grandma" to be attractive to men.
Her "friends" constantly try to meddle in her sex life and try to scare away Toby a guy she is interested in (who is also interested in her). After she has sex with Toby he finds out she is trans and is clearly unhappy with the situation. This is clearly falling into the shitty "trap" stereotype. Towards the end of the game she starts having the nightmares meant to punish men.
Poor GRIMES
Banned
Birdo 👏🏽
The more I think about Persona 5, I can't keep but thinking I really didn't like the story and/or the characters. Not only I found them unremarkable at all, but yeah, the teen model, heiress and perfect student aren't really "underdogs" for me. Maybe the forced marriage part I guess, but I only l liked Yusuke when I think about it.
Finished it two weeks ago and just felt flat, tbh.
Finished it two weeks ago and just felt flat, tbh.
I kind of agree with this post when it comes to that:
The main cast of P5 were certainly people who oppressed and abused by individuals in positions of power who would also hide behind that position to get away with their abuses, but weren't really the type of people to get ostracized by society at large, except maybe Futaba.
Birdo isn't gay. There's also the issue of her being trans originally being a joke.
MiguelMexMIstery
Member
cj_iwakura
Member
Poor GRIMES
Banned
That's the joke. There aren't any.
I can't think of one well written LGBT+ character in Japanese video games that is explicitly and proudly queer
Linkstrikesback
Member
You can't expect that to be taken seriously when out of persona 3-5 (admittedly assuming on 5, I got a bit over halfway then my ps4 hard drive failed and I've not restarted yet...), he's the closest any non-mc gets to having a canon love interest with Naoto.
At most you can maybe argue he is Bi. But if p4 has a gay character in the cast, it's Yosuke if anyone.
Technically, Junpei was the closes to have a canon love interest.
Not games, but Sailor Moon and Cardcaptor Sakura had amazing gay representation in the 90s. I think Japan had a massive conservative shift in the last 20 years though.
She wasn't a huge focus, but Automata had Operator 6O. Though you don't spend much time with her, you quickly get the gist of her personality regardless. In that game, her sexuality is what it is, she just casually indirectly reveals it by bemoaning the fact that someone shot her down.
It might also have to do with how homogeneous Japanese society is. About 98% of the population is ethnic Japanese.
The character is fine; it's how how most of the main cast some of whom are supposed to be childhood friends treat her that isn't.
Salty Rice
Member
Nah man Yosuke has the hots for Yu.
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