Neuromancer said:

As long as it can still do Pandora Radio, the PS3 browser is good enough for me.

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this.

Pandora > *

methos75 said:

I really don't think Sony is following MS considering that things like themes and wallpapers were already part of the XMB UI on the PSP long before the XB360 was out.

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actually, official PSP Theme support was added long after the 360 was out.

We're probably getting a webkit ( the base that Chrome and Safari use) port in the next six months or so. Technically, the PS3 apparently already has part of one. Some people at Beyond3D have been digging like crazy (I don't even know why), and discovered the old official Sony PS3 linux maintainer is working on a webkit port. Since webkit is open source, here's a link to the project:

http://downloads.snei-opensource.com/pub/webkit/webkit-10.10.01-14fd0bd2/

It's difficult to summarize the Beyond3D thread (it gets weird in places), but it looks like at least the netflix client and probably all the other post-firmware 3.5 streaming apps use the HTML5 javascript engine built-in the PS3.

So what are we downloading when we download these apps? I think it's just the video streaming plugin along with some possible art assets. It was noted that plugins that were released before firmware 3.5 (hulu+) had smaller downloads after 3.5.

And while there's only just enough webkit to run streaming apps now, more updates were promised in the coming months.
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1504387&postcount=274 (note: bolded text in quote added by poster).

So yeah, we're probably getting Chrome (Safari seems unlikely). The hard part, the javascript engine, is mostly done and running well enough to support streaming apps.

Move support?

Rapping Granny said:

Ok I can't even browse GAF anymore because now it's just a giant wall of text whenever I try to view it.

Streaming sites like Justin.tv and Ustream.com have become pretty useless right now that they added adverts before the stream begins, so the PS3 browser shows the ad with sound and picture, but when it's finished the stream of the content is played through sound but no picture.

It seems Sony keeps taking features out with it's firmware update and keeps making the current ones even shittier.



Off topic Sony rant

Also Sony. GO FUCK YOURSELF with your paid avatar bullshit, you haven't given a single free avatar ever since you decided to upload more 100x100pixel pictures after 4 years of the same ones to your shitty service. At least XBL gives out some free ones in their promotions or holiday specials and most importantly let's us use the XBL camera to take our own avatar. I know this is a small thing, but is it really that hard to give out these things for free.

Hey Sony, MS doesn't make it's entire XBL revenue from paid avatars you dumb motherfuckers, it's by providing a better usable service and charging for it, not like your shitty Playstation+, oh 2 free Fat Princess avatars and an hour of Infamous, oh don't mind if I do, let me get my wallet.

BTW where the fuck is CROSS GAME CHAT! Fuck text chat, that shit is useless when the XMB is slow as shit in the 3rd party games like Read Dead Redemption and Bad Company 2, it's slow and sluggish. By the time you opened up the text chat, you already spawned and are dead again.

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works better than the 360 browser. oh wait...

Thunderbear said:

think it's a shame gaming sites don't make their sites compatible with the PS3, if youtube can do it they can do it.

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Making a modern web based app on that browser is not fun nor easy... kinda NDA-ed on that so I won't expand on this, but I hear a lot of cussing from people working with it .

androvsky said:

We're probably getting a webkit ( the base that Chrome and Safari use) port in the next six months or so. Technically, the PS3 apparently already has part of one. Some people at Beyond3D have been digging like crazy (I don't even know why), and discovered the old official Sony PS3 linux maintainer is working on a webkit port. Since webkit is open source, here's a link to the project:

http://downloads.snei-opensource.com/pub/webkit/webkit-10.10.01-14fd0bd2/

It's difficult to summarize the Beyond3D thread (it gets weird in places), but it looks like at least the netflix client and probably all the other post-firmware 3.5 streaming apps use the HTML5 javascript engine built-in the PS3.

So what are we downloading when we download these apps? I think it's just the video streaming plugin along with some possible art assets. It was noted that plugins that were released before firmware 3.5 (hulu+) had smaller downloads after 3.5.

And while there's only just enough webkit to run streaming apps now, more updates were promised in the coming months.
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1504387&postcount=274 (note: bolded text in quote added by poster).

So yeah, we're probably getting Chrome (Safari seems unlikely). The hard part, the javascript engine, is mostly done and running well enough to support streaming apps.

Click to expand...

Nice find.

It doesn't have to be Chrome or Safari though, they could simply port the current browser front-end to use the WebKit rendering engine.

Panajev2001a said:

Making a modern web based app on that browser is not fun nor easy... kinda NDA-ed on that so I won't expand on this, but I hear a lot of cussing from people working with it .

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Why would anyone make an app based on the current browser? See my post above.

androvsky said:

Why would anyone make an app based on the current browser? See my post above.

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Because they have to . The app must get out soon so it started quite a bit of time ago.

I find it hilarious that a browser on a mobile device runs like 1000x better than the PS3 brower.(talking about old cellphones, pre-iPhone stuff, hell my 2005 cell has a better browser) Those devices have little ram and crap specs but managed not to crash every 2 seconds.

Anyways, if PS3 gets a Chrome browser.....

Imagine if it could access the Chrome apps?

Edit-I've used the browser quite a few times. It seemed fine to me. I just used it to download some XMB themes or some MP4 trailers off of the web.
The browser is meh.....

I'm using my ps3 right now as I post this to watch fist of the north star on crunchyroll. The video ads fuck it up occasionally but I'm amazed that i can actually do this and not pay 50 bucks a year. I have no complaints.

I never use it.
Tried it once. That was once too many.

AmericanNinja said:

works better than the 360 browser. oh wait...

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I think in the end everyone should realize they did not have a browser for a reason.

Browsing the internet on consoles is awful. Theres always going to be problems with software not being supported or updated enough.

Leave it to pc guys.

Atomski said:

I think in the end everyone should realize they did not have a browser for a reason.

Browsing the internet on consoles is awful. Theres always going to be problems with software not being supported or updated enough.

Leave it to pc guys.

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Thank you. This is why I hate the clamoring for a browser on the 360. It will just be a POS that will never be fully capable.

hgplayer1 said:

Thank you. This is why I hate the clamoring for a browser on the 360. It will just be a POS that will never be fully capable.

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I would use the 360 browser as much as I use the one on the PS3 and Wii... never.

Atomski said:

Browsing the internet on consoles is awful. Theres always going to be problems with software not being supported or updated enough.

Leave it to pc guys.

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Yeah? Tell that to the millions of Mobile Safaris working extremely well on iPhones out there.

felipepl said:

Yeah? Tell that to the millions of Mobile Safaris working extremely well on iPhones out there.

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phone browsers are different. they are mobile and convenience is the biggest reason for using them.

hgplayer1 said:

phone browsers are different. they are mobile and convenience is the biggest reason for using them.

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And the convenience of using a browser on my TV is the biggest reason for using the PS3 browser.

Reply to Androvski

We're probably getting a webkit ( the base that Chrome and Safari use) port in the next six months or so. Technically, the PS3 apparently already has part of one. Some people at Beyond3D have been digging like crazy (I don't even know why), and discovered the old official Sony PS3 linux maintainer is working on a webkit port. Since webkit is open source, here's a link to the project:

http://downloads.snei-opensource.com/pub/webkit/webkit-10.10.01-14fd0bd2/

It's difficult to summarize the Beyond3D thread (it gets weird in places), but it looks like at least the netflix client and probably all the other post-firmware 3.5 streaming apps use the HTML5 javascript engine built-in the PS3.

So what are we downloading when we download these apps? I think it's just the video streaming plugin along with some possible art assets. It was noted that plugins that were released before firmware 3.5 (hulu+) had smaller downloads after 3.5.

And while there's only just enough webkit to run streaming apps now, more updates were promised in the coming months.

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1504387&postcount=274 (note: bolded text in quote added by poster).

So yeah, we're probably getting Chrome (Safari seems unlikely). The hard part, the javascript engine, is mostly done and running well enough to support streaming

Click to expand...

Edit: it's not chrome. If you look at the quote, it's "generic webkit" and Chrome can't use Cairo, also from the quote. In the disclosure it's a Target=GDK/GTK+ webkit port which I didn't catch at first.

Recent interviews have more information on Netflix. The information is cited in the posts on the Playstation forum Firmware updates. It's in an article from a QT employee. http://www.fosdem.org/2011/interview/kenneth-rohde-christiansen

Qt WebKit is a very powerful engine, and it is quite easy to embed web usage in your apps. It even spots a hybrid approach where you can extend the engine from C++, so that you can access your C++ methods from the web view runtime. Quite powerful and used a.o. by Netflix on the Roku and the PS3, using a custom port.

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Netflix did a custom port of QT webkit to the PS3. This is what they are claiming as a full webkit port to the PS3.

QT webkit is a cross platform Hybrid "C" and webkit development platform. The includes in the Netflix 21 meg application are a webkit toolkit (not the whole webkit) and "C" library extensions to the basic POSIX PS3 OS. QTWebkit can also use Gstreamer plugins which may have provided a trick/adaptive streaming H.264 player.

In the QT Webkit site a QT webkit library for Linux platforms is said to be 21 megs. This is exactly the size of the Netflix downloadable application.

The Hulu application which is 7 megs most likely does use the HTML5 javascript engine included in PS3 firmware 3.5.

Edit: MS will probably not be providing a HTML5 browser for the Xbox but is providing support for HTML5. So far the updates to the PS3 are being used for IPTV streaming audio and video applications. How can we be sure Sony will finish and provide the PS3 with a new HTML5 Webkit browser? Will they stop as MS did on the Xbox and not provide a browser?

1) Portal 2 is coming and at the last E3 Sony was praised for "Open Internet" support. See note at bottom:
2) A Sony employee mentioned 3-D viewing from inside a browser. (requires HTML5 and WebGL; WebGL = direct calls to GPU from javascript engine for faster graphics)
3) It's an extension of the Google - Sony partnership and is good business for both. Sony also founded DLNA, possibly for the same reason.
4) The PS3 is missing many of the OS library calls to support a webkit. With webkit and also to allow porting applications to the PS3 from the NGP via PS Suite, the PS3 OS will have to be modified and fully support a modern desktop.

Cairo can use OpenGL as does a WebGL browser which would be required to view 3-D inside a browser.

My understanding is PS Suite requires OpenGL ES 2.0 support and common "C" OS library calls in the target platform. Edit: GDC and reading power point presentations from past GDC lectures now confirms PSGL = programmable low level GPU & shader support; PC, NGP, PS3 and Android 2.3 and later use a similar low level programmable model. Creating a PS3 OpenGL ES 2.0 library is possible but may not be needed. Custom support using PSGL vs. OpenGL for the browser is probable as is it's use for PS Suite. Edit: Either you use OpenGL 1.0 or OpenGL 2.0, you can't mix the libraries (the model and process is different) even though 2.0 contains many of the functions in OpenGL 1.0. The OpenGL 2.0 programmable GPU model is similar to PSGL.

http://www.khronos.org/opengles/

OpenGL® ES is a royalty-free, cross-platform API for full-function 2D and 3D graphics on embedded systems - including consoles, phones, appliances and vehicles. Embedded Systems don't typically have fully functioning complete operating systems with the support seen in a desktop PC, there being no need in a phone or game console.

OpenGL ES 1.X - For fixed function hardware: (RSX GPU alone)
OpenGL ES 1.1 is defined relative to the OpenGL 1.5 specification and emphasizes hardware acceleration of the API, but is fully backwards compatible with 1.0. It provides enhanced functionality, improved image quality and optimizations to increase performance while reducing memory bandwidth usage to save power. The OpenGL ES 1.1 Extension Pack is a collection of optional extensions added to OpenGL ES 1.1 that reduced variability and bring significant improvements in image quality and performance. Learn More...

OpenGL ES 2.X - for Programmable Hardware (RSX-SPU combination)
For programmable hardware: OpenGL ES 2.0 is defined relative to the OpenGL 2.0 specification and emphasizes a programmable 3D graphics pipeline with the ability to create shader and program objects and the ability to write vertex and fragment shaders in the OpenGL ES Shading Language. OpenGL ES 2.0 does not support the fixed function transformation and fragment pipeline of OpenGL ES 1.x. Learn More...

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The player in the PS3 is most likely written by Sony and was updated sometime around firmware 3.5 to support adaptive streaming. Edit: Android platforms and Sony are using Gstreamer to build their media players and applications. Webkit can use this also.. Proof =http://gstreamer.freedesktop.org/conference/ (May be an Android hardware developers choice to replace OpenCore with Gstreamer but might become universal on more powerful ARM chipsets)

See also for an idea of issue impacting Open Source library choices: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=9&sqi=2&ved=0CFkQFjAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Ffree-electrons.com%2Fdoc%2Fembedded_linux_sysdev.odp&rct=j&q=chrome%20gstreamer%20webkit&ei=RlJ7TbTAB4HBtgfivpW6BQ&usg=AFQjCNF7oKBWr1A4K3j7-ZKBEFXvNZRugw

And Sony Snap developer Site information. http://snap.sonydeveloper.com/img/snap/stack1.jpg

Gstreamer may be the source stack for the video editor in the PS3. There are a series of PDF and video files on the Gstreamer site referenced above. 150 plugins for Gstreamer, many that might be part of the NGP and coming to the PS3. Also in the first presentation PDF are charts of Gstreamer usage and the charts peak with the PS3 release and recently with PS3 firmware 3.5 - 3.56 (Adaptive streaming and trick player) (Chicken and egg applies here).

Opera uses Gstreamer for their HTML5 video

So we have the following libraries coming or in the PS3, all are required in some form for a webkit port: (confirm before quoting)

Android 2.3+..................PS3......................................NGP
Open Core?.......................Gstreamer...........................Gstreamer....................Android now using Gstreamer?
SQLite.............................SQLite.................................SQLite
OpenGL ES 2.0.................PSGL...................................PSGL ...........................(Android 2.3+ GPU API = more low level support; PC, NGP, PS3, Android use similar)
Webkit layout engine........Webkit layout engine.............Webkit layout engine
SGL Graphics?..................Cairo..................................?Cairo
SSL ................................SSL......................................SSL
Bionic LibC (Posix)?..........GLibC + (POSIX C Lib)?.........GLibC + (POSIX C Lib)?....Orig PS3 OS limited subset now being expanded

? above means, needs to be confirmed. It appears that there are several changes to the Android OS with versions after 2.3+. Android after 2.3+ means more powerful hardware platforms supporting games so Android evolved toward the Sony PS3 library choices. Biggest question is the LibC support as that would have the greatest impact on "C" portability between PS3-Android-NGP via PS Suite.

I'm hoping that with the update required for webkit and PS Suite Sony will realize there is a need for some homebrew in the form of at least javascript widgets.

The PS3 was a game machine and as such did not need OS support beyond the basic POSIX system. Applications written to this point had to include inside themselves what would normally be callable as part of a modern OS library. This is why Application sizes for the PS3 have been so large (200 megs).

http://community.us.playstation.com/thread/3390291?tstart=0

http://community.us.playstation.com/thread/3395726?tstart=0


http://store.steampowered.com/uiupdate/

On PCs Steam has been upgraded to use Webkit. Portal 2 and some form of Steam is coming to the PS3.

The new Steam UI is here, which enhances the way you already buy and play games, adding more info about the things that matter — getting games, playing them with friends, and staying current in the gaming world.

If you haven't already updated, you can use the "Check for Steam client updates" option on the "File" menu to automatically update Steam to the new release. If you don't have Steam installed, download it today.

Now using a WebKit based rendering engine for the client and in-game overlay web browsing components (replacing Internet Explorer)

Click to expand...

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/114/1144414p1.html

Marking the debut of Steam functioning on any next generation console, the features shipping in the PS3 version of Portal 2 include cross platform play (PC/Mac vs. PS3) for multiplayer games, persistent cloud-based storage of PS3 saved games, and cross platform chat (PC/Mac and PS3).

In addition, those who purchase Portal 2 for the PlayStation 3 may unlock a Steam Play (PC & Mac) copy of Portal 2 at no additional cost by linking their PSN and Steam accounts.

"We made a promise to gamers at E3 that Portal 2 for the PlayStation 3 would be the best console version of the product," said Gabe Newell, co-founder and president of Valve. "Working together with Sony we have identified a set of features we believe are very compelling to gamers. We hope to expand upon the foundation being laid in Portal 2 with more Steam features and functionality in DLC and future content releases."

Portal 2 is due for release on the PlayStation 3, PC, Mac and Xbox 360 this April.

Click to expand...

Possible release dates for a new Webkit browser:

April with the release of Portal 2 (Portal 2 may not require a full webkit for support)
June at E3 (business reasons, best guess)
September or October with the release of S1 or the NGP

Razorskin said:

Sorry I can't really hear what you said, I have my two plus icons plugged in my ears.

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Massa said:

Nice find.

It doesn't have to be Chrome or Safari though, they could simply port the current browser front-end to use the WebKit rendering engine.

Click to expand...

Yes they could. I hope not as windows support is required for webkit and the ability to have multiple windows open at the same time is not possible without a significant rewrite for the Netfront frontend.

jeff_rigby said:

Reply to Androvski



Recent interviews have more information. The information is cited in the posts on the Playstation forum Firmware updates. It's in an article from a QT employee. http://www.fosdem.org/2011/interview/kenneth-rohde-christiansen



Netflix did a custom port of QT webkit to the PS3. This is what they are claiming as a full webkit port to the PS3.

QT webkit is a cross platform Hybrid "C" and webkit development platform. The includes in the Netflix 21 meg application are a webkit toolkit (not the whole webkit) and "C" library extensions to the basic POSIX PS3 OS.

In the QT Webkit site a QT webkit library for Linux platforms is said to be 21 megs. This is exactly the size of the Netflix downloadable application.

Edit: looks like QT webkit can use Gstreamer and Gstreamer has an adaptive streaming and trick play media play plugin that may be the one being used by everyone for the PS3 and other platforms.

Click to expand...

So how do we determine if Sony is indeed "releasing more updates with more support for webkit in the coming months".

What prompted me to email about firmware 3.5 was the observation that two existing IPTV applications (MLB is one) dropped in size 7 megs after a firmware update required by 3.5. This was most likely a generic HTML4 javascript engine moving out of the application when a HTML5 engine was available in PS3 firmware.

The initial NETFLIX application was 21 megs in size and contained it's own webkit tool kit and library of "C" extensions. It did not use the PS3 firmware 3.5 HTML5 javascript engine but provided one of their own. Recently Netflix dropped in size 3 megs, 21 to 18 megs with a firmware update required because of PS3 3.56.

A javascript engine is about 7 megs so it's not that....really I can't see any way to determine what was removed but it is a positive and most likely confirms that new portions of webkit or more likely some of the supporting libraries required by webkit were in PS3 3.56.

Recently confirmed at GDC 2011 was that NGP and PS3 were going to use the same or similar PSGL and shader libraries, the same toolkit chain and the same or similar Open Source OS libraries. This makes it easier for "C" portability between plarforms. Since NGP appears to now have the libraries required for a webkit port, those libraries in NGP will most likely be ported to the PS3.

hgplayer1 said:

phone browsers are different. they are mobile and convenience is the biggest reason for using them.

Click to expand...

So is opening youtube, a gamefaq walkthrough or a radioplayer on my TV screen. The browser is good enough for quick reading and supports bluetooth keyboard and mouse.

M°°nblade said:

So is opening youtube, a gamefaq walkthrough or a radioplayer on my TV screen. The browser is good enough for quick reading and supports bluetooth keyboard and mouse.

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What would you be opening a GameFAQ walkthrough for? Handheld? Why not just use the computer then?

Gravijah said:

What would you be opening a GameFAQ walkthrough for? Handheld?

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That and my Xbox360 games. For PS3 games, I used my PSP browser.

Yes, you can laugh all you want, but it was handy when I needed the assassin's creed 2 feather location map or the trophy guide.

Why not just use the computer then?

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If you have a computer that's hooked up to the same TV, that would definitely be a better alternative.
If not, it's easier to switch channels than to get out of the couch.

I also use the PS3 browser for quick reads like the weather report or TV guide since it boots up faster than my computer.

Please read edited message 169 above. Note Gstreamer and libraries in PS3 information.

Visit the Gstreamer site, my guess is Sony is using plugins from Gstreamer. The 150 plugins give you an idea of the features that could be supported and the lectures, what may be coming later this year with the GTKwebkit port. You will have to dig some but the 2010 conference PDFs and videos are worth watching.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=26159919#post26159919