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Japanese dev reveals some of the issues third parties have with Nintendo

Jonnyram

Member
After Iwata's big speech at the 3DS announcement, about how third party games are not selling like Nintendo's, Alchemist's boss got a little infuriated, and posted a blog entry to vent his anger: http://www.alchemist-net.co.jp/nikki/?p=2741

The crux of the matter is that a lot of the issues with 3rd parties on Nintendo hardware are still Nintendo's fault. In particular, the software manufacturing process leaves a lot to be desired. Here are the key points mentioned:

1. Repeat manufacture starts from X thousand units.
Say your game is more popular than you expected (or you were a little too "safe" with first run numbers). If you decide to manufacture more copies, Nintendo says you must start with X thousand (the X is secret because of NDA). Other hardware manufacturers start at 100. There's a massive risk involved for smaller publishers, in particular, here.

2. Manufacture turnaround time is 3-4 weeks.
In the case of DS games, it takes Nintendo 3-4 weeks to manufacture a second run of carts. Other hardware manufacturers have a one week turnaround. When your game is selling like hot cakes, you can understand the need to get extra units out quickly. Nintendo, apparently, doesn't.

3. Manufacturing costs have to be paid 100% upfront
Other hardware manufacturers are not mentioned here, but the example is given that "let's say it costs 1000 yen per unit to manufacture" (actual cost depends on cart size), and if a game is expected to be a big hit and sell 1 million units, that's 1 billion yen that has to be paid upfront. That's a ridiculous amount and causes a bit of a headache as far as company capital goes. He suggests reducing it to 1/3 upfront payment, to ease the problem.

4. Nintendo could try to help with TV advertising
Right now, Nintendo is sponsoring a lot of TV shows via advertising. It would be a good opportunity for Nintendo to sub-let advertising, at a reasonable price (thanks cvxfreak) to third parties during these programmes.

He mentions the last point is really a personal request, but the others are serious issues.
 

Scrow

Still Tagged Accordingly
interesting

hopefully nintendo sees this and takes steps to fix the issues, or this guy simply emails/phones them directly
 

KamenSenshi

Junior Member
I wish companies would quit whining that Nintendo wont advertise their games for them. Is the most retarded thing, just because sony and microsoft waste millions that way it doesn't mean nintendo should.
 

Amir0x

Banned
KamenSenshi said:
I wish companies would quit whining that Nintendo wont advertise their games for them. Is the most retarded thing, just because sony and microsoft waste millions that way it doesn't mean nintendo should.

Why shouldn't Nintendo help them the way Sony and Microsoft does?

Wait, scratch that... let Sony and Microsoft keep getting all the games that all the Nintendo fanboys keep whining they don't get.
 
KamenSenshi said:
I wish companies would quit whining that Nintendo wont advertise their games for them. Is the most retarded thing, just because sony and microsoft waste millions that way it doesn't mean nintendo should.

Thats precisely what it means.
 

Opiate

Member
Amir0x said:
Why shouldn't Nintendo help them the way Sony and Microsoft does?

Wait, scratch that... let Sony and Microsoft keep getting all the games that all the Nintendo fanboys keep whining they don't get.

It's an undesirable market distortion, but that's certainly not Nintendo's reason.

These are tangible, significant issues. It's a much sturdier explanation than image issues or other boogeymen.
 

Haunted

Member
I can personally vouch for 2 and 3 causing huge problems at the publisher I've worked at (for?).


1 was not an issue for us in the two cases where we had to order additional runs. 4 has always been the publisher's responsibility, although it would of course be nice of Nintendo to help and support 3rd parties in that way.
 
Amir0x said:
Why shouldn't Nintendo help them the way Sony and Microsoft does?

Wait, scratch that... let Sony and Microsoft keep getting all the games that all the Nintendo fanboys keep whining they don't get.
it's not so bad. nintendo games are awesome ^_^. fuck the rest.
 

Mrbob

Member
Is full manufacturing cost being paid up front the norm? Seems crazy to have to foot that whole bill right away before making a return on the product.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
KamenSenshi said:
I wish companies would quit whining that Nintendo wont advertise their games for them. Is the most retarded thing, just because sony and microsoft waste millions that way it doesn't mean nintendo should.

Situation: Nintendo doesn't have enough third party support. Nintendo agrees this is a serious problem.

Cause: Third parties don't feel like they can do as well on Nintendo systems, at least partially because Nintendo doesn't help them out while the other platform owners will.

Your response: There's no problem and third parties should shut up and support Nintendo even if Nintendo doesn't help them out.

...
 

KamenSenshi

Junior Member
I don't mind if they miss out on fps 233561001. I normally get all the consoles so its not an issue for me but this thing with companies placing the blame and responsibility where needs to stop. Nintendo doesn't like losing money while the other two are fine with it apparently. After all this time the 3rd parties should know this.

What Im saying is, it is not a good thing to be in the habit of always paying for others games one easy our another. Sony was known for gta and tomb raider, now on everything. Sure variety is nice, but at what price, why does the market lesser have to hand out services to try and get games.
 
Amir0x said:
Why shouldn't Nintendo help them the way Sony and Microsoft does?

Wait, scratch that... let Sony and Microsoft keep getting all the games that all the Nintendo fanboys keep whining they don't get.

Because Nintendo can't outspend Sony and Microsoft. They don't want to have to rely on moneyhatting games (and rightfully they shouldn't have to as market leader)

But that is also only a small part of 3rd party developer's reluctance to support Nintendo. There is a long standing hatred that dates all the way back to the NES/SNES era (and western devs hate them even more since they stand for everything that is the opposite of what they are interested in)

Personal grudges are very hard to kill. And most 3rd party devs' visions of the future of the industry are aligned with Microsoft and Sony's visions. To them, Nintendo can be seen as a mortal enemy.
 

Amir0x

Banned
Opiate said:
It's an undesirable market distortion, but that's certainly not Nintendo's reason.

These are tangible, significant issues. It's a much sturdier explanation than image issues or other boogeymen.

I don't know what reason Nintendo has for being cagey as fuck, but they could certainly stand to be more open. The last thing we need is more 80s era Nintendo shitting up the entire industry with their horrible practices.

DMPrice said:
it's not so bad. nintendo games are awesome ^_^. fuck the rest.

uh...hm.

Nuclear Muffin said:
Because Nintendo can't outspend Sony and Microsoft. They don't want to have to rely on moneyhatting games (and rightfully they shouldn't have to as market leader)

This excuse might have worked before, but Nintendo is filthily wealthy, and can easily throw weight behind any developer they choose. And yes, they could even outspend Sony or Microsoft if they wanted to. It's not necessarily about how much a company could hypothetically spend, but how much they ACTUALLY would spend.

Nuclear Muffin said:
But that is also only a small part of 3rd party developer's reluctance to support Nintendo. There is a long standing hatred that dates all the way back to the NES/SNES era (and western devs hate them even more since they stand for everything that is the opposite of what they are interested in)

1. All devs reluctance to support Nintendo is well grounded. Good for them.
2. The Western Dev comment is ridiculous.
 
KamenSenshi said:
I don't mind if they miss out on fps 233561001. I normally get all the consoles so its not an issue for me but this thing with companies placing the blame and responsibility where needs to stop. Nintendo doesn't like losing money while the other two are fine with it apparently. After all this time the 3rd parties should know this.

They do know this. Thats why they don't work with Nintendo.
 

fahr

Member
Those developer issues are the same issues devs had with nintendo over 20 years ago. They haven't changed yet, why would anyone expect them to now?
 

duckroll

Member
These costs and manufacturing issues actually explain a lot of shortages and undershipping of initial shipments on the DS for smaller and lower budget Japanese games. Infinite Space, EO1, and SMT Strange Journey come to mind.
 
Stumpokapow said:
Situation: Nintendo doesn't have enough third party support. Nintendo agrees this is a serious problem.

Cause: Third parties don't feel like they can do as well on Nintendo systems, at least partially because Nintendo doesn't help them out while the other platform owners will.

Your response: There's no problem and third parties should shut up and support Nintendo even if Nintendo doesn't help them out.

...

Aren't circumstances like this prior to Playstation's launch exactly how Sony managed to climb to the top?

This is Sony's chance to make the PSP2 and make it a massive success outside of Japan.

Strong third party support and full integration with Playstation Network accounts = VICTOLY!

Well, a giant step in the right direction.
 
1 and 2 don't seem that bad but number 3 is pretty terrible. Though it would be nice if we knew how Sony/MS treats the same problem to put things in perspective.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
KamenSenshi said:
I don't mind if they miss out on fps 233561001. I normally get all the consoles so its not an issue for me but this thing with companies placing the blame and responsibility where needs to stop. Nintendo doesn't like losing money while the other two are fine with it apparently. After all this time the 3rd parties should know this.

Okay, great.

Situation: NINTENDO announces BOY WE'D LIKE THIRD PARTY SUPPORT. Third party points out his issues with Nintendo.

Your response: Your problems are bullshit, Nintendo doesn't give a shit about you. I don't give a fuck about third party games.

...

This is an issue that Nintendo is raising. This is a complaint that Nintendo has. This is a mea culpa that Nintendo has issued. The entire reason why this conversation is happening is because Nintendo is openly saying "We've gotta do better."

So your posts read as "Stupid Iwata, you're wrong. You should act more like Iwata, that guy really gets it!", right?
 

Firestorm

Member
I thought they stopped this shit when they lost market dominance with the N64. Did this start up again or did nothing ever change?
 

gerg

Member
The manufacturing costs thing is understandable - this seems like typical conservative behaviour working against its own interests - but why would Nintendo be so slow to manufacture cartridges? It makes no sense.

Even then, though, it seems strange that the blog post reads "Nintendo! Stop admitting that its your fault and start admitting that you have these problems!"
 
That's too bad. These policies in particular seem very unfair to smaller publishers. Also explains why a lot of smaller devs like Falcom and Nippon Ichi are not very big on Nintendo support.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
beat said:
I wonder if 1,2, & 3 - at least for DS - are about manufacturing carts vs discs.

Well, for what it's worth, Alchemist has never released a game on Wii and they've released several games on DS :p
 

Opiate

Member
I'm really glad these are coming to light. It's precisely these sorts of details that make a fuller, more realistic understanding of industry structure.

These issues may seem small, but they are the types of issues that tend to snowball over time. That is, the Playstation version (as an example) of a game might be slightly easier to produce, so they decide to produce that. That game does well. This, in turn, encourages other producers to follow suit, as there is now proven success. This extrapolates even further over time.

This is how even small differences in policies can have big impacts on corporate relations long term. Small differences in an industry focused on herd mentality creates extremely large swings in corporate governance -- this is true in any industry where corporations work together, not just gaming.
 

Arkaerial

Unconfirmed Member
Stumpokapow said:
Situation: Nintendo doesn't have enough third party support. Nintendo agrees this is a serious problem.

Cause: Third parties don't feel like they can do as well on Nintendo systems, at least partially because Nintendo doesn't help them out while the other platform owners will.

Your response: There's no problem and third parties should shut up and support Nintendo even if Nintendo doesn't help them out.

...

Let me quote that and highlight the part some people don't seem to see. Since it doesn't show Nintendo in a good light, it must be an attack on Nintendo
 

Amir0x

Banned
Firestorm said:
I thought they stopped this shit when they lost market dominance with the N64. Did this start up again or did nothing ever change?

Nintendo being Nintendo.

but damn if, they have Mario and Zelda, so we take it always :(
 

Somnid

Member
gerg said:
The manufacturing costs thing is understandable - this seems like typical conservative behaviour working against its own interests - but why would Nintendo be so slow to manufacture cartridges? It makes no sense.

Because they're cartridges I would imagine. I wonder how Wii stacks up.
 

duckroll

Member
cosmicblizzard said:
1 and 2 don't seem that bad but number 3 is pretty terrible. Though it would be nice if we knew how Sony/MS treats the same problem to put things in perspective.

No, 1 and 2 are VERY bad. Especially when talking about Japanese games and Japanese sales, not being able to restock a title for 3 weeks could effectively kill all chance of the title selling more copies ever. In the case of niche titles which experience great word of mouth, being able to restock immediately after the first week could mean losing the chance to double or even triple sales volume. That's VERY bad.
 
Firestorm said:
I thought they stopped this shit when they lost market dominance with the N64. Did this start up again or did nothing ever change?

Nintendo has yet to be humbled in the handheld space.

Explains why they could release a handheld that wasn't visible under normal lighting conditions, or a console in 2011 with no competent online infrastructure.
 
It's clear this developer does not understand the manufacture process or the fact that Nintendo are not going to take financial risk in order to make another company money.

Turn around time is longer for cartidge than it is for DVD, always has been and it used to be 6 weeks back in the N64 days so I'll say there has been an improvement there.

The minimum order will be whatever makes it worthwhile to set up a production line to make that game divisable by the number of games that nintendo ship in the master cartons.

So if a company wants to order more than they can afford who bails out NIntendo when they don't sell? That's why they pay upfront.

I used to work in production and order N64 carts from Nintendo the rules while difficult for smaller publishers are there for a reason.
 

rosjos44

Member
Why should 3rd Parties who are independent from Nintendo beg for their help with Advertising? Money issues? Quite possibly because most third parties cannot afford good advertising but they should not put the blame 100% solely on Nintendo for this. I wonder if any of these developers actually asked / talked to Nintendo to help them with their ad's I bet it cost them (3rd parties) money and they refused to do it. Imo if you want help you pay for it.
 
2. The Western Dev comment is ridiculous.

Bollocks. Most western devs have shown themselves to be more interested in pushing graphical and online boundaries than pushing for new types of gameplay. Why would they be interested in supporting a company that has a completely different vision of the industry than what they have?
 

Amir0x

Banned
dreamcastmaster said:
It's clear this developer does not understand the manufacture process or the fact that Nintendo are not going to take financial risk in order to make another company money.

Turn around time is longer for cartidge than it is for DVD, always has been and it used to be 6 weeks back in the N64 days so I'll say there has been an improvement there.

The minimum order will be whatever makes it worthwhile to set up a production line to make that game divisable by the number of games that nintendo ship in the master cartons.

So if a company wants to order more than they can afford who bails out NIntendo when they don't sell? That's why they pay upfront.

I used to work in production and order N64 carts from Nintendo the rules while difficult for smaller publishers are there for a reason.

"You're only getting fucked up the ass for your own good honey."

Nuclear Muffin said:
Bollocks. Most western devs have shown themselves to be more interested in pushing graphical and online boundaries than pushing for new types of gameplay. Why would they be interested in supporting a company that has a completely different vision of the industry than what they have?

Oh, it's this retarded Nintendo fanboy commentary again, for a second I was about to take you seriously.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
KamenSenshi said:
I wish companies would quit whining that Nintendo wont advertise their games for them. Is the most retarded thing, just because sony and microsoft waste millions that way it doesn't mean nintendo should.

The guy who wrote the blog post isn't suggesting they do it for free. He is saying that Nintendo should offer the chance to third party publishers at a reasonable cost. Otherwise they have no way to way to advertise their game on TV to the entire nation (in Japan).
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
Nuclear Muffin said:
Bollocks. Most western devs have shown themselves to be more interested in pushing graphical and online boundaries than pushing for new types of gameplay. Why would they be interested in supporting a company that has a completely different vision of the industry than what they have?

The problem isn't that claim, it's the idea that this is a case of "mortal enemies" or "deep personal anger". Companies are not angry and irrational like that. They define a corporate direction, and they do business with partners that help them realize that direction. If that direction is compatible with Nintendo and Nintendo is a good partner, they'll do business with Nintendo. If that direction is not compatible with Nintendo or Nintendo is not a good partner, they won't. It's not personal.
 

gerg

Member
Somnid said:
Because they're cartridges I would imagine. I wonder how Wii stacks up.

Ah, I overlooked the "In the case of DS games" bit. If the same timeframe is true for Nintendo's own titles, then I think that this is more an unfortunate reality of the software than it is of Nintendo being rubbish towards third parties.
 

rosjos44

Member
duckroll said:
No, 1 and 2 are VERY bad. Especially when talking about Japanese games and Japanese sales, not being able to restock a title for 3 weeks could effectively kill all chance of the title selling more copies ever. In the case of niche titles which experience great word of mouth, being able to restock immediately after the first week could mean losing the chance to double or even triple sales volume. That's VERY bad.

Then why do people pre order games? If people can wait months (or even years) for a game release I am sure those users can wait 3 weeks to get a copy if they want the game.
 
duckroll said:
No, 1 and 2 are VERY bad. Especially when talking about Japanese games and Japanese sales, not being able to restock a title for 3 weeks could effectively kill all chance of the title selling more copies ever. In the case of niche titles which experience great word of mouth, being able to restock immediately after the first week could mean losing the chance to double or even triple sales volume. That's VERY bad.

Yeah, that could definitely kill the smaller devs. Still, would you say 3 is the worst one? It just seems like a really big risk that might not even exist with the other 2.
 

KamenSenshi

Junior Member
No no, Im just saying I want Nintendo to continue to be careful if they are going to go down that path of paying for games. If it helps them get more games for their audience that's great, but, it leads down the path of trying so hard to please others that they lose their edge.
 
Amir0x said:
Oh, it's this retarded Nintendo fanboy commentary again, for a second I was about to take you seriously.

HEY MAN!

A touch screen to cast a spell instead of pressing complicated and scary d,df,f, and A is INNOVATIVE!

Hopefully SSF4 on 3DS has a 3DS mode. :lol :lol :lol
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
dreamcastmaster said:
It's clear this developer does not understand the manufacture process or the fact that Nintendo are not going to take financial risk in order to make another company money. Turn around time is longer for cartidge than it is for DVD, always has been and it used to be 6 weeks back in the N64 days so I'll say there has been an improvement there. The minimum order will be whatever makes it worthwhile to set up a production line to make that game divisable by the number of games that nintendo ship in the master cartons. So if a company wants to order more than they can afford who bails out NIntendo when they don't sell? That's why they pay upfront.

Of course there's a reason behind Nintendo's actions, but the question is whether the consequences of those actions are worth the benefits. The consequences include reduced third party support, which they've identified as a major problem. So perhaps they should expend cash (even "wastefully") in support of the goal of rectifying that problem.
 

WillyFive

Member
Great points.

It's interesting, because Nintendo was just talking about this thing in their conference, and they believed the main problem was that Nintendo games always sold the most.

Apparently, it's not.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
gerg said:
The manufacturing costs thing is understandable - this seems like typical conservative behaviour working against its own interests - but why would Nintendo be so slow to manufacture cartridges? It makes no sense.

Even then, though, it seems strange that the blog post reads "Nintendo! Stop admitting that its your fault and start admitting that you have these problems!"

What? Where does it sound like that? I read through the original and I can't see where you got that impression.
 
Stumpokapow said:
The problem isn't that claim, it's the idea that this is a case of "mortal enemies" or "deep personal anger". Companies are not angry and irrational like that. They define a corporate direction, and they do business with partners that help them realize that direction. If that direction is compatible with Nintendo and Nintendo is a good partner, they'll do business with Nintendo. If that direction is not compatible with Nintendo or Nintendo is not a good partner, they won't. It's not personal.

It's not about personal anger, the higher ups are not that stupid. But there is a certain level of distrust that Nintendo have never been able to truly shake off amongst Japanese developers (western devs have never really supported Nintendo ever outside of 2nd party collaborations like Rare, Factor 5 and Silicon Knights) and I do believe that it's rooted in Nintendo's practices as seen back in the days of the NES and SNES.

As for the western developers comment of mine, Nintendo's philosophy just isn't compatible with the likes of Epic, Critek, Ubisoft (proper. Not their shovelware junk), DICE and the like. Nintendo represent the opposite of what they are interested in, simple as.
 

CTLance

Member
Looking at that list I somewhat doubt Nintendo will yield and implement more pub/dev-friendly "mechanics".

Sounds like a risk-minimized profit-maximized modus operandi - for Nintendo, that is. Just what I'd expect from them.

Certainly makes some decisions more easy to understand.
 

7Th

Member
People that say that number 2 is "not so bad" clearly don't understand how big the used games market is in Japan.
 
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