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[DeaconKnowledge]

Rockstar didn't touch the Wii because supporting the Wii is incompatible with their broad platform strategy, but that just means Rockstar was never there as a "get." Small publishers are a legitimate area of growth for Nintendo in the third-party arena in a way that R* are not.

No argument here.

I just want to dispel the idea that it is "all 'x's fault". The explanation in the OP is surely a valid one, but to assess that as a catch all for every developer (which will no doubt and already has happened in this thread) is folly. There will always be something that Nintendo, or any other platform holder, can do to endear themselves to their 3rd party contractors. Removing these roadblocks will definitely free up more low-mid tier support, but the gap between Nintendo and larger devs will most assuredly remain.

 

[Gravijah]

I can't believe Nintendo is running the same racket they have been since the NES days...

Old habits die hard.

 

[redbarchetta]

I am arguing that these policies are archaic remnants from a time when it was a legitimately horrible idea for Nintendo to engage in spending wars with Sony and MS of any kind. As Nintendo grows in wealth and size, and as Sony and MS are forced to reign in spending both by Nintendo's successes and their own failures, it is becoming increasingly likely that Nintendo should be more aggressive with their spending.

But do you not think these policies may be partially why they've grown to such wealth and size?

At any rate, I'm curious as to what sparked Iwata's recent third-party musings.

 

[Refreshment.01]

Alchemist's boss stance is kind of silly. Nintendo has been the main console manufacturer that have stock with cartridge or solid media the longest. This type of storage is more expensive than what the competition offers, so theres more risk involved for both parties, that its nintendo and third parties. So it is understandable that they need to cover their asses.

 

[Mrbob]

No, 1 and 2 are VERY bad. Especially when talking about Japanese games and Japanese sales, not being able to restock a title for 3 weeks could effectively kill all chance of the title selling more copies ever. In the case of niche titles which experience great word of mouth, being able to restock immediately after the first week could mean losing the chance to double or even triple sales volume. That's VERY bad.

Especially if they have to pay all manufacturing fees up front. Pay a bunch of money and it takes Nintendo a month to make the investment worthwhile, if at all. Reshipment comes too late you lose momentum.

 

[Mandoric]

I wish companies would quit whining that Nintendo wont advertise their games for them. Is the most retarded thing, just because sony and microsoft waste millions that way it doesn't mean nintendo should.

Note: This guy isn't (necessarily) asking for free advertising--if Nintendo sponsors x show, they have partial to complete control over what advertising appears and how much it costs. He may be suggesting that they reserve ad slots for suitably high-bidding publishers or give publishers the option to beat an unrelated company's bid.

 

[Laguna]

lol @ people complaining about point 3. Of course they have to pay beforehand, if they want a loan they should go to a bank, why should Nintendo take the risk for others again? It´s nice to want things but we aren´t living in dreamland. Wow what a crybaby that Alchemists guy.

 

[Lonely1]

ghettoization != solving problems

Well, the rhetoric seems to be, specially in the handheld market, that Apple, and its model of $0.99 fart apps, is the savior from the evil Nintendo empire.

 

[rpmurphy]

It's clear this developer does not understand the manufacture process or the fact that Nintendo are not going to take financial risk in order to make another company money.

Turn around time is longer for cartidge than it is for DVD, always has been and it used to be 6 weeks back in the N64 days so I'll say there has been an improvement there.

The minimum order will be whatever makes it worthwhile to set up a production line to make that game divisable by the number of games that nintendo ship in the master cartons.

So if a company wants to order more than they can afford who bails out NIntendo when they don't sell? That's why they pay upfront.

I used to work in production and order N64 carts from Nintendo the rules while difficult for smaller publishers are there for a reason.

I'm not an expert here, but it sounds like issues 2 and 3 are strongly influenced by the practice of issue 1. What's the rationale behind not allowing repeat manufacture of smaller quantities? Wouldn't reducing the manufacturing to X hundred copies improve the turnaround time and reduce the risk for both Nintendo and 3rd parties? Otherwise it does make Nintendo appear like moneygrubbers who don't care about fostering good relations with 3rd party publishers or care about their side of the deal.

 

[gerg]

At any rate, I'm curious as to what sparked Iwata's recent third-party musings.

Nintendo's colossal failure with the Wii in Japan.

 

[outunderthestars]

So many of those issues would vanish if Nintendo moved away from physical media all together....

That said. I fail to see why a line of credit couldn't be extended to publishing partners.

 

[stuminus3]

Bollocks. Most western devs have shown themselves to be more interested in pushing graphical and online boundaries than pushing for new types of gameplay. Why would they be interested in supporting a company that has a completely different vision of the industry than what they have?

Bet you didn't know id wanted to port Super Mario Bros. 3 to PC.

Mark Rein's bullshit is not the same as "Western Devs".

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

lol @ people complaining about point 3. Of course they have to pay beforehand, if they want a loan they should go to a bank, why should Nintendo take the risk for others again? It´s nice to want things but we aren´t living in dreamland. Wow what a crybaby that Alchemists guy.

He may be a crybaby, but it's definitley a valid argument.

When I read the OP I immediately thought of Marvelous. Every game they release is a gamble because their profits are razor thin. In the time it would take them to reprint a surprise hit, demand could die down completely once titles flood the used market, and they have no protection against units they've already purchased. For smaller devs that draws a thin line between profitability and massive losses.

 

[outunderthestars]

I'm not an expert here, but it sounds like issues 2 and 3 are strongly influenced by the practice of issue 1. What's the rationale behind not allowing repeat manufacture of smaller quantities? Wouldn't reducing the manufacturing to X hundred copies improve the turnaround time and reduce the risk for both Nintendo and 3rd parties? Otherwise it does make Nintendo appear like moneygrubbers who don't care about fostering good relations with 3rd party publishers.

Why couldn't Nintendo just open another cart manufacturing plant or two?

 

[redbarchetta]

Nintendo's colossal failure with the Wii in Japan.

You're being factitious, right? Define "failure." It's still the #1 platform of this generation in Japan, and has outsold their last several consoles by several magnitudes. Sales have slumped, sure, but that doesn't equate to "colossal failure" by any stretch.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

You know what, nevermind.

 

[The Shadow]

Nintendo shitting on third party developers/publishers? GTFO....

 

[Opiate]

But do you not think these policies may be partially why they've grown to such wealth and size?

I think their general conservatism helped them enormously. I think these specific policies are an extension of that, which had both upsides and downsides when a company is comparatively small and with less resources than their competitors. I really can't say whether these policies were ever "good" or "bad" during those times, but I can confidently say that they're bad now.

While Nintendo is still smaller and less resource rich than its competitors, the gap has been closed hugely and as Amirox suggests, they may actually have the most capital available for the video game industry in particular.

Policies that were once successful in a different environment may not be successful now. It is extremely useful for a Walrus to have its extra coating of blubber in the locations it typically lives: it's very cold and food sources can be scarce. If you transfer that same creature to tropical waters, what was once a fantastic strategy becomes a very poor one in the new environment.

Nintendo's environment has changed.

 

[redbarchetta]

So many of those issues would vanish if Nintendo moved away from physical media all together....

As would their sales...

 

[gerg]

You're being factitious, right? Define "failure." It's still the #1 platform of this generation in Japan, and has outsold their last several consoles by several magnitudes. Sales have slumped, sure, but that doesn't equate to "colossal failure" by any stretch.

I'm defining it as a failure because, had Nintendo had much, much, better relations with third-party publishers it would be in a much better position than it is now.

 

[WillyFive]

I'm defining it as a failure because, had Nintendo had much, much, better relations with third-party publishers it would be in a much better position than it is now.

Hrmmm....by how much?

 

[sphinx]

speaking about the future, I must say I was honestly surprised by the E3 unveilment of the 3DS where nintendo seemed to step back from the spotlight and left the likes of Capcom and Konami take the stage.

Nintendo and 3rd parties have never looked as much in an agreement as when we saw that presentation at E3 so I'd say it's a fact that nintendo MUST have improved 3rd parties relationships prior to the handheld's unveilment and I suspect that it includes all the points the alchemist boss is complaining about.

Nintendo isn't perfect but they sure have learned from their mistakes and I am sure we'll get a proper update for their online infrastructure (otherwise Capcom would have never thought about RE:Mercenaries 3D), co-op advertising and logistics like Cartridge/Media manufacturing.

 

[redbarchetta]

I'm defining it as a failure because, had Nintendo had much, much, better relations with third-party publishers it would be in a much better position than it is now.

You said "colossal failure," which is pure hyperbole. They're still the market leader in any individual market as well as worldwide. You can argue they might be in a better position than they are now, but again, not anywhere near "colossal failure" territory, unless you also consider Microsoft and Sony to be failures as well.

 

[RurouniZel]

You're being factitious, right? Define "failure." It's still the #1 platform of this generation in Japan, and has outsold their last several consoles by several magnitudes. Sales have slumped, sure, but that doesn't equate to "colossal failure" by any stretch.

I think he means the Wii's failure with 3rd parties in Japan.

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

That turnaround time is brutal, especially for surprise hits. Unfortunately, this, along with the various other issues (minimum order sizes, for instance) aren't so much Nintendo's fault as much as they're a consequence of the manufacturing process. Cards are still fiddly to make and any manufacturer will do what they can to keep their margins high.

I suppose one solution to the problem is to have a standby train available for small runs. Third parties could re-order, but have to pay more per cartridge. Problem with this solution is that the standby train would basically represent idle plant in a manufacturing plant which goes against the very idea of modern manufacturing. If you put it into full-time service, I suppose it could work as a supplement for stuff you're trying to get out the door anyway, but downtime will still represent money lost and it isn't an efficient solution.

The requiring money up-front though, is a bizarre practice. It's one thing to be fiscally responsible and discourage shirkers, but it isn't good for building relationships with other businesses either. Deposit upfront and the rest on delivery is the modus operandi of most manufacturing businesses I've heard of. Don't know what's going on here.

Part of the issue is that Nintendo won't "outsource" manufacturing either, since controlling the process of making carts has been their bread and butter since the NES days. I don't know what it's like for the Wii (I suspect the use of DVDs allows the cost of manufacture to remain low and comparable to other platform holders), but this is unlikely to ever change for their handhelds.

 

[Fredescu]

It's still the #1 platform of this generation in Japan

Interesting choice of words. It certainly isn't.

 

[redbarchetta]

I think he means the Wii's failure with 3rd parties in Japan.

Perhaps, but even his follow-up post failed (heh) to clarify.

Interesting choice of words. It certainly isn't.

Console, my mistake. (Even though they also possess the largest platform, which kind of supports my point...)

 

[Linkup]

Alchemist seems like small japanese shovelware dev...

Poor guy, probably better to pursue wii/dsi/3dsware than expect Nintendo to magically pop out carts faster or make them cheaper etc.

 

[legend166]

The first two issue definitely sound like legitimate gripes and would be very annoying for small publishers.

The third just seems like an issue of doing business. I don't see why Nintendo should have to front two thirds of the bill to manufacture carts for third party publishers straight up. I mean, if the game bombs the company is still going to have an issue paying back that loan and if it doesn't bomb, then it's not really a problem. Sure, I imagine it would be annoying for start ups and such, but inability to raise your own capital isn't really Nintendo's problem.

The whole 'Nintendo needs to advertise' thing is something I take a different view on. In the current marketplace and to be able to compete with Microsoft and Sony, Nintendo should definitely take steps to help promote third party games. On the other hand, I'd rather Nintendo/MS/Sony to just be hands off and let third parties stand on their own two feet. Otherwise you get a case of the haves and have nots.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Why am I not at all surprised Nintendo's still running the same crap they used to?

Come on, Nintendo, you have all this and you still sit there scratching your head as to why third parties don't come to you the way they come to the others?

 

[Opiate]

You're being factitious, right? Define "failure." It's still the #1 platform of this generation in Japan, and has outsold their last several consoles by several magnitudes. Sales have slumped, sure, but that doesn't equate to "colossal failure" by any stretch.

First, it's not the number one platform. It's number three. Second, context matters. Just as Playstation fans will insist we examine the PS3 in a vacuum and come to the conclusion that it's doing alright for itself, it is not dying and is now vaguely profitable, a realistic person can recognize that, in the context of the Playstation family, this represents enormous declines in virtually every observable fiscal metric.

Similarly, the Wii is doing acceptably by some standards now. It is doing terribly by the precedent it set in the early stages of this generation, and Nintendo clearly failed to capitalize on their enormous success.

 

[mr_nothin]

potential. There are other outlets. This is why we have Wiiware and other digital distribution systems.

Its not like the Wii is the only platform for these games. Even if it is again there is Wiiware and I think its more akin to what your talking about rather than a retail release for a small developer anyways.

Well I guess that's why third parties don't like Nintendo much. They see no potential there. They cant potentially make money on the system. Business is all about potential (how much could my game potentially sell on this platform?). If Nintendo's making it so hard when compared to other companies then they're the odd man out. Wiiware is also thought of as "the bargain bin" by a lot of consumers.

The Digital Distribution market isn't very big right now (relative to the regular market). It's an area where consumers expect to pay $10-20 on a game. Hell, people are a little upset with the $15 pricing of Sonic 4 on PSN and XBLA. Why should developers/publishers be shoved off to the "bargain bin" of the industry because they want to try something a little different (or try anything at all for that matter). It's not like Nintendo's making it hard for small developers....they're making it hard for every 3rd party dev. I don't think Nintendo really wants to change all that much.

It's rather amusing that the company which positioned their system to significantly benefit from small, quirky developers has (what appears to be) the least friendly corporate policies for those same small businesses.

Yea it is ironic. It seems that it's easier for developers to just go the PSN/XBLA route than to create a game for the Wii :lol

I cant believe people are taking up for Nintendo when it comes to this. They're the ones missing out on the games.

 

[Boombloxer]

I very much doubt these are the reasons Nintendo is not receiving development from major third party studios, particularly in the west.

Rockstar didn't touch the Wii, say, for a Grand Theft Auto title because they had to pay the manufacturing costs up front? Right.

This sounds like more of a concern for low to mid level developers. While it is a VERY valid one, I very seriously doubt these are the worst or even moderate issues to a company that runs on anything other than a strict budget.

NM, didn't see the previous posts:

I just want to dispel the idea that it is "all 'x's fault". The explanation in the OP is surely a valid one, but to assess that as a catch all for every developer (which will no doubt and already has happened in this thread) is folly. There will always be something that Nintendo, or any other platform holder, can do to endear themselves to their 3rd party contractors. Removing these roadblocks will definitely free up more low-mid tier support, but the gap between Nintendo and larger devs will most assuredly remain.

I don't think it's a catch-all, but its legit. I do think they could do more to help out the smaller pubs, and expand some of that to the big boys.

There's a bunch of stuff that they can do, but they don't. Meanwhile the competitors do, so they reap the rewards. They said they want to change this (again), so let's see if any of this stuff does.

 

[gerg]

Hrmmm....by how much?

That's hard to say.

I think that there may have been a point where the Wii could have reached around 20 million sales. Heck, there was a point where it was outpacing the PS2 in sales.

Now it struggles to sell over 20,000 units a week.

I'm not good with numbers and sales-age predictions, but saying that poor third-party support chopped off around five million units (at least) from the Wii's LTD sounds all nice and flashy.

You said "colossal failure," which is pure hyperbole.

Fair enough, it was hyperbolic. (And I myself generally dislike hyperbole).

They're still the market leader in any individual market as well as worldwide.

Of course, this is an accomplishment. I would still consider the Wii's position in Japan to be a failure, however. It has done well, of course, but no where near as well as it could have done.

(Also, I'm not sure why you're mentioned the Wii's sales worldwide, when my originally, admittedly hyperbolic, post specifically referenced Japan.)

You can argue they might be in a better position than they are now, but again, not anywhere near "colossal failure" territory, unless you also consider Microsoft and Sony to be failures as well.

Well, yes, different companies can fail at different things for different reasons.

 

[redbarchetta]

First, it's not the number one platform. It's number three.

I know, that was a slip-up I addressed before.

Similarly, the Wii is doing acceptably by some standards now. It is doing terribly by the precedent it set in the early stages of this generation, and Nintendo clearly failed to capitalize on their enormous success.

They capitalized on it for three years. It's unrealistic to expect them to maintain launch momentum four years out. I'm not arguing they couldn't have performed even better, but to say they're performing "terribly" is seemingly an exaggeration.

 

[sfried]

The whole 'Nintendo needs to advertise' thing is something I take a different view on. In the current marketplace and to be able to compete with Microsoft and Sony, Nintendo should definitely take steps to help promote third party games. On the other hand, I'd rather Nintendo/MS/Sony to just be hands off and let third parties stand on their own two feet. Otherwise you get a case of the haves and have nots.

This is a very interesting perspective. Perhaps what they meant was an infrastructure for exposing titles, but I think the've been trying hard to alleviate that by merging their "advertisment" channel (Nintendo Channel) with their "distribution" channel (Shop Channel). Time will tell if it works, but I also think they need to also rely heavily on feedback/presonal written reviews in much the same way Amazon posts customer feedback first and foremost.

 

[redbarchetta]

(Also, I'm not sure why you're mentioned the Wii's sales worldwide, when my originally, admittedly hyperbolic, post specifically referenced Japan.)

Well, there wasn't much reason not to--it addressed your point with some elaboration and took like an extra second to type.

(Also, I'm not sure why you're mentioned the Wii's sales worldwide, when my originally, admittedly hyperbolic, post specifically referenced Japan.)

It sounded like you were speaking in an overall context.

At any rate, I appreciate your very level-headed response =)

 

[gerg]

They capitalized on it for three years. It's unrealistic to expect them to maintain that much momentum launch momentum four years out. I'm not arguing they couldn't have performed even better, but to say they're performing "terribly," except in specified cases, is seemingly an exaggeration.

Well, yes, it is unrealistic to expect Nintendo alone to maintain a console's momentum for four years. Indeed, that is the very argument for as to why Nintendo then needed thrid-party support to help it maintain the Wii's momentum.

Well, there wasn't much reason not to--it addressed your point with some elaboration and took like an extra second to type.

Well, sure, but I've never denied that, in an overall, worldwide context, the Wii's sales have been nothing short of fantastic.

That the Wii is still keeping ahead of the PS2 in regards to WW LTD highlights how successful, overall, the Wii has been.

It sounded like you were speaking in an overall context.

Nintendo's colossal failure with the Wii in Japan.

If you say so...

At any rate, I appreciate your very level-headed response =)

You're welcome. : )

 

[Thunderbear]

I've noticed a lot of ops post in Nintendo threads that never see in Sony/MS threads, is that because of some GAF history I am unaware of?

To the point, like many has said, when a 3rd party developer brings up valid concerns and Nintendo says it wants to be more 3rd party friendly, they should listen to valid concerns. Hopefully they will.

Though the "part of the reason 3DS is expensive is because of the E3 reaction" Iwata said irks me a bit. That's a part of Nintendo I don't like.

 

[cvxfreak]

I looked over the source myself, and for #4, the OP leaves out Alchemist's request of having Nintendo cooperate with third parties at a reasonable price (for the third parties).

 

[Amir0x]

I've noticed a lot of ops post in Nintendo threads that never see in Sony/MS threads, is that because of some GAF history I am unaware of?

To the point, like many has said, when a 3rd party developer brings up valid concerns and Nintendo says it wants to be more 3rd party friendly, they should listen to valid concerns. Hopefully they will.

Though the "part of the reason 3DS is expensive is because of the E3 reaction" Iwata said irks me a bit. That's a part of Nintendo I don't like.

Iwata said that? Out loud?

 

[Y2Kev]

Can you only publish 5 games a year? Bring back ULTRA GAMES

 

[Boombloxer]

I know, that was a slip-up I addressed before.



They capitalized on it for three years. It's unrealistic to expect them to maintain launch momentum four years out. I'm not arguing they couldn't have performed even better, but to say they're performing "terribly" is seemingly an exaggeration.

This is a general question, at its current pace, how many months will it be before the Wii hits 100 million sold?

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

Well, the rhetoric seems to be, specially in the handheld market, that Apple, and its model of $0.99 fart apps, is the savior from the evil Nintendo empire.

Hey, someone's stuck in 2008. Have you bothered to check the App store lately? Played any of the games?

There's real games with real gameplay at 0.99$. Simple yet entertaining games.

There's better games between 2$ to 3$.

And then there's gems like Undercroft at 0$ courtesy of Jagex marketing budget.

 

[redbarchetta]

Well, yes, it is unrealistic to expect Nintendo alone to maintain a console's momentum for four years. Indeed, that is the very argument for as to why Nintendo then needed thrid-party support to help it maintain the Wii's momentum.

My point is it's unrealistic to expect any level of third-party support to maintain that initial momentum. Could it have better improved? Presumably. But almost anything at this point relative to its launch would be a "disappointment."

 

[Opiate]

They capitalized on it for three years. It's unrealistic to expect them to maintain that much momentum launch momentum four years out.

Maintain that much momentum? Probably not. But there's a pretty wide gap between maintaining the highest sales ever achieved by a single platform near launch (which it did in Japan) and falling all the way to the point where it's now the second best selling console (PS3 is besting it both weekly and for the cumulative year right now). What's more, the momentum is clearly pushing even further in the PS3's favor, with third parties seemingly abandoning the Wii altogether and many fans speculating about a necessary replacement in the next 1-2 years.

Have we ever seen a system which was the clear winner for 2-3 years suddenly get outstripped by a system everyone presumed dead, like the PS3? It's never happened. Not even close, really. The Wii was going to slow down, but it surely did not need to slow down this badly.

 

[gerg]

Iwata said that? Out loud?

I think the inference here is in regards to retailers and third-party developers, rather than internet forum-dwellers.

But yes, he said that.

They basically did the same thing for the Wii, didn't they?

My point is it's unrealistic to expect any level of third-party support to maintain that initial momentum. Could it have better improved? Presumably. But almost anything at this point relative to its launch would be a "disappointment."

What Opiate said.

 

[-KRS-]

Though the "part of the reason 3DS is expensive is because of the E3 reaction" Iwata said irks me a bit. That's a part of Nintendo I don't like.

Interesting, where did you read this? Did he say it during the 3DS conference?

Edit: nvm

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Iwata said that? Out loud?

Yep.

 

[Amir0x]

Yep.

with...people around him? to...record the comment?