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[Boombloxer]

Maintain that much momentum? Probably not. But there's a pretty wide gap between maintaining the highest sales ever achieved by a single platform near launch (which it did in Japan) and falling all the way to the point where it's now the second best selling console (PS3 is besting it both weekly and for the cumulative year right now). What's more, the momentum is clearly pushing even further in the PS3's favor, with third parties seemingly abandoning the Wii altogether and many fans speculating about a necessary replacement in the next 1-2 years.

Have we ever seen a system which was the clear winner for 2-3 years suddenly get outstripped by a system everyone presumed dead, like the PS3? It's never happened. Not even close, really. The Wii was going to slow down, but it surely did not need to slow down this badly.

This is what I was getting at with my earlier question. The previous generation winners sold 100+ million consoles. Wii's at 50-something now, but the momentum has ebbed quite a bit.

Can anyone imagine that happening with the PS1, PS2? So, clearly, something has to give.

 

[Rocket Punch]

Meh, it's been a fair trade off this gen. Wii and DS game development has been considerably cheaper compared to 360, PS3 and PSP games so why shouldn't they have to pay to advertize their games and pay upfront for manufacturing? Are you gonna tell me UMD, a propietary media format of its own is that much faster to produce?

Everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too.

 

[redbarchetta]

Have we ever seen a system which was the clear winner for 2-3 years suddenly get outstripped by a system everyone presumed dead, like the PS3? It's never happened. Not even close, really. The Wii was going to slow down, but it surely did not need to slow down this badly.

But we've never seen anything quite like the Wii before. It launched at a price significantly less than its competitors and catered to a crowd largely consisting of casuals. Since then, the price disparity has decreased drastically and the Wii has seemingly reached a saturation point with its target market.

I think there are several factors at work, with third-party support just being one of them (and not the main one, imo). Basically, conditions for the Wii are so different, I'm not sure how meaningful comparisons to previous generations really are.

 

[AceBandage]

with...people around him? to...record the comment?

Actually, it was to a holographic projection of a cloaked Yamauchi.
"What is tine biding, master?"

 

[gerg]

with...people around him? to...record the comment?

That's how we know he said it, right?

This is what I was getting at with my earlier question. The previous generation winners sold 100+ million consoles. Wii's at 50-something now, but the momentum has ebbed quite a bit.

Can anyone imagine that happening with the PS1, PS2? So, clearly, something has to give.

The Wii's at 70+ million units now.

 

[Vic]

with...people around him? to...record the comment?

Andriasang covered the news which came from Bloomberg Japan: http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2010/09/30/3ds_price/

 

[Fredescu]

I think there are several factors at work, with third-party support just being one of them (and not the main one, imo).

If a lack of software isn't the main reason, what is?

 

[WrenchNinja]

Iwata said that? Out loud?

It's about this I think: http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2010/09/30/3ds_price/

EDIT: Oh hey, beaten to the button.

 

[zero_suit]

Wii's at 50-something now, but the momentum has ebbed quite a bit.

More like over 70 million...

 

[Lonely1]

Hey, someone's stuck in 2008. Have you bothered to check the App store lately? Played any of the games?

There's real games with real gameplay at 0.99$. Simple yet entertaining games.

There's better games between 2$ to 3$.

And then there's gems like Undercroft at 0$ courtesy of Jagex marketing budget.

And did you bother to read the thread?

 

[Boombloxer]

But we've never seen anything quite like the Wii before. It launched at a price significantly less than its competitors and catered to a crowd largely consisting of casuals. Since then, the price disparity has decreased and the Wii has seemingly reached a saturation point with its target market.

I think there are several factors at work, with third-party support just being one of them (and not the main one, imo). Basically, conditions for the Wii are so different, I'm not sure how meaningful comparisons to previous generations really are.

You surely have. The target market might be different, but a hot product is a hot product. It's about maximizing that--can you honestly look and say "there is nothing more that they could've done to maintain momemtum?"

Saturation point...not sure I agree, only because the older consoles sold more than that. I can't look up the data right now, but it might be useful just to compare lifespans to say, the PS2, and the sales trends.

The Wii's at 70+ million units now.

Link me por favor, I did a quick search, got 50. I want to know anyway.

 

[redbarchetta]

If a lack of software isn't the main reason, what is?

I listed some of them.

 

[Trurl]

Iwata said that? Out loud?

I knew people should have kept quiet about their willingness to pay top dollar for the 3DS. >=[

 

[redbarchetta]

You surely have. The target market might be different, but a hot product is a hot product. It's about maximizing that--can you honestly look and say "there is nothing more that they could've done to maintain momemtum?"

I actually didn't say that, and instead stated the opposite, so I'm not sure why you're asking.

Saturation point...not sure I agree, only because the older consoles sold more than that. I can't look up the data right now, but it might be useful just to compare lifespans to say, the PS2, and the sales trends.

The older consoles had a different primary demographic.

 

[jamesinclair]

lol @ people complaining about point 3. Of course they have to pay beforehand, if they want a loan they should go to a bank, why should Nintendo take the risk for others again? It´s nice to want things but we aren´t living in dreamland. Wow what a crybaby that Alchemists guy.

Seriously.

Is this what people want:

Midway: Id like to order 2 million copies of my new crap game. I will pay 1/3 of the price now, and the rest later
Nintendo: Deal
*Game flops, Midway goes out of business*
Nintendo: !?!?!



Also, 1,000 units is too much to ask for....? Who the hell orders a shipment of games in a number less than that?


Also, the turnaround time in a new order isnt by choice. Nintendo has also lost out on big sales because they underestimated demand and it took another month to get new copies out. There was a Kirby title for GBA that sold out immediately, and then took 3 months to get restocked (missing November and December retail)

What exactly is Nintendo supposed to do? Flash media is the best for portable gaming.

 

[AceBandage]

I knew people should have kept quiet about their willingness to pay top dollar for the 3DS. >=[

Blame "People will pay $400 for the 3DS" Pachter.

 

[Celsior]

I think the inference here is in regards to retailers and third-party developers, rather than internet forum-dwellers.

But yes, he said that.

They basically did the same thing for the Wii, didn't they?

Retailers usually make a percent of what the product is sold for, so there is always pressure to have a higher price on items. Retailers might have given Ninetndo more room, more displays areas just for the price to be higher. With the demand wanted for the 3DS this is the price they think they could get away with. Remember when Retailers wouldn't carry the Go unless they made a nice profit on the ones sold?

Seriously.

Is this what people want:

Midway: Id like to order 2 million copies of my new crap game. I will pay 1/3 of the price now, and the rest later
Nintendo: Deal
*Game flops, Midway goes out of business*
Nintendo: !?!?!



Also, 1,000 units is too much to ask for....? Who the hell orders a shipment of games in a number less than that?


Also, the turnaround time in a new order isnt by choice. Nintendo has also lost out on big sales because they underestimated demand and it took another month to get new copies out. There was a Kirby title for GBA that sold out immediately, and then took 3 months to get restocked (missing November and December retail)

What exactly is Nintendo supposed to do? Flash media is the best for portable gaming.

Yeah, small developers go out of business very easy in today's market, they probably have loan deals with Capcom and square enix but no way they are making a deal with a small developer. Really, DD in on ever system, if you do not want to pay for carts make DD games.

 

[Black Rainbow]

You surely have. The target market might be different, but a hot product is a hot product. It's about maximizing that--can you honestly look and say "there is nothing more that they could've done to maintain momemtum?"

Saturation point...not sure I agree, only because the older consoles sold more than that. I can't look up the data right now, but it might be useful just to compare lifespans to say, the PS2, and the sales trends.



Link me por favor, I did a quick search, got 50. I want to know anyway.

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/pdf/2010/100729e.pdf

Page 9

 

[The Take Out Bandit]

Yep.

See, if you'd send me to E3 as your representative every 3DS would come with a hot chick in the box and be priced at $99.99!

 

[ShineALight]

Link me por favor, I did a quick search, got 50. I want to know anyway.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6261400.html?tag=recent_news;title;1

As for Iwata's quotation, he's probably right, it will still sell very well at that artificially inflated price. I appreciate his candidness there, but I agree with gerg that it was not meant for the ears of consumers. It's also worth noting that all we have is a paraphrasing of what he said, and no direct quotation.

 

[Fredescu]

I listed some of them.

Price and saturation? Software is the solution to both of those.

 

[Amir0x]

That's how we know he said it, right?

I mean we sort of expect all corporations to be big and greedy and that's their right if consumers are there to pay whatever exorbitant bullshit price they charge, but to actually say it out loud in the presence of someone who could relay it to the general public?

Christ...

 

[Osuwari]

i'm all for Nintendo losing dominance again if it means getting more games and more effort from them.
the arrogance didn't take long to fill their heads.

 

[AceBandage]

I mean we sort of expect all corporations to be big and greedy and that's their right if consumers are there to pay whatever exorbitant bullshit price they charge, but to actually say it out loud in the presence of someone who could relay it to the general public?

Christ...

Well, it certainly beats "People will want to work more hours to afford our product."

i'm all for Nintendo losing dominance again if it means getting more games and more effort from them.
the arrogance didn't take long to fill their heads.

Uh, what?
Their output this gen has far outstripped their output from the past two gens.

 

[TKM]

#3 is a problem even for decent-sized publishers, and reflects Nintendo's conservative business practices. This is not how most manufacturers of media like Technicolor, JVC, Sony DADC operate. Nintendo used to require a line of credit set up so that as soon as the goods are delivered to the dock, invoices are presented and paid immediately. As credit started to tighten worldwide, they started requiring payment up front before manufacturing even begins. Why would any company want to pay for goods not even delivered? What if there's a delay? Defect? Partial shipment?

They get away with it because they own the platform. Virtually every other business offers credit terms to one another. You receive the goods, inspect for completeness, pay within 30-60 days. Some require wire payment instead of paper checks, but nothing as tough as what Nintendo wants.

 

[rosjos44]

I have a question, how do you expect a niche game to sell to a mass market? Even with good marketing I think that would be a rough sell. Most of these small companies make games for hardcore markets. Not everyone is going to play these hardcore games and how often did these niche titles sell on PS2 / PS1? It is very hard to sell bucket loads if the market it self is not into that genre / game anymore. Regardless of how much money you throw at it.


I did forget that 5th cell is part of Warner brothers regarding their publishing efforts. My bad. It makes me wonder why other companies follow their lead.

 

[ElFly]

Surprise, cart manufacturing is slightly slower and more expensive than disc printing.

Fucking manufacturing, how does it work. But yeah, let's hate on nintendo because they can't break the laws of physics.

Still worth the minor load times and battery saving.

 

[gerg]

I mean we sort of expect all corporations to be big and greedy and that's their right if consumers are there to pay whatever exorbitant bullshit price they charge, but to actually say it out loud in the presence of someone who could relay it to the general public?

Christ...

I really don't have a problem with what he said. As AceBandage said, at least he's being honest and down-to-earth about it.

 

[redbarchetta]

Price and saturation? Software is the solution to both of those.

How does software make up for price?

As for software, third-parties have done little to reach the Wii's core demographic with few exceptions, such as Just Dance. One would think if third-parties were capable of such, we would more than a handful of examples, even with Nintendo's current practices. Instead, it seems Nintendo's software is what sells systems to their core demographic.

If you're arguing Nintendo could be reaching the so-called "hardcore" demographic with more games, sure. But even that wouldn't have much of an impact--we've seen how well most "hardcore" games sell on Wii: they don't. Most hardcore gamers seem to prefer the better visuals and online of 360 and PS3 and there's little the Wii can do to combat those. Hence why the PS3's and 360's price drops have been so significant. With the casual market seemingly growing saturated, and "hardcore" gamers more inclined to buy a 360 or PS3, I'm not convinced there is a whole heck of a lot Nintendo could have done to vastly turn things around, without having compromised their initial success (such as by releasing a more powerful and expensive system).

 

[Amir0x]

I really don't have a problem with what he said. As AceBandage said, at least he's being honest and down-to-earth about it.

I do. He's basically outright saying "we are going to take advantage of the customers that made us a success! You guys will bend over and take it cause you clearly want it! KBYE!" Being down to earth doesn't make the comment less shitty.

Nothing we can do about it, but this is exactly the type of Nintendo that everybody loves to hate. Sony was having their turn, they floundered because of it, now Nintendo is back to its old bullshit.

 

[Boombloxer]

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/pdf/2010/100729e.pdf

Page 9

Danke.

 

[AceBandage]

I do. He's basically outright saying "we are going to take advantage of the customers that made us a success! You guys will bend over and take it cause you clearly want it! KBYE!"

Nothing we can do about it, but this is exactly the type of Nintendo that everybody loves to hate.

I personally have no delusions here.
Nintendo is an evil company.
Maybe the most evil of all.
They do all this stuff that pisses us off, yet we keep coming back to them in the 10s (100s) of millions.
They truly could rule the world if they had the motivation.

 

[ElFly]

Why shouldn't Nintendo help them the way Sony and Microsoft does?

Because Sony lost all the profits from the previous generations on the PS3, and MS lost a lot of billions too?

MAYBE Nintendo knows what they are doing.

 

[Kintaro]

From the publisher of GalGun...

Anyways, interesting insight. There is a lot of information on the other side we don't know. Is Nintendo the only company that produces these carts? How expensive is it for them to do so? For how many other companies do they produce such carts for each day? How much would Nintendo stand to lose if they cut the upfront payment to 1/3 of the price?

So on and so forth.

Bottom line is, if many (if not all) of these publishers have such a problem with the way Nintendo has done their business, why didn't they jump ship sooner? It can't be piracy concerns. The PSP was always right there.

 

[Amir0x]

Because Sony lost all the profits from the previous generations on the PS3, and MS lost a lot of billions too?

MAYBE Nintendo knows what they are doing.

not even remotely because they helped third party developers out.

but nice attempt at deflection

 

[BattleMonkey]

Because Sony lost all the profits from the previous generations on the PS3, and MS lost a lot of billions too?

MAYBE Nintendo knows what they are doing.

And this gets gamers the 3rd party software they want how now? Nintendo is smart and has made lots of money, but they are not the ones getting the software so many people keep demanding.

This thread isn't about whose doing better, but how Nintendo has for a long time shit on 3rd parties.

 

[ElFly]

not even remotely because they helped third party developers out.

but nice attempt at deflection

*shrug* money ill spent is money ill spent.

It's not like Nintendo doesn't help third parties.

They've loaned Mario to other publishers tons of times. They still get the shitty support from these developers.

And this gets gamers the 3rd party software they want how now? Nintendo is smart and has made lots of money, but they are not the ones getting the software so many people keep demanding.

This thread isn't about whose doing better, but how Nintendo has for a long time shit on 3rd parties.

But a lot of the points made here are due to one simple reason: makind DS carts is harder than printing DVDs.

They sacrificed flexibility and profit margins to give their consumers the best experience. But now they are evil because of that?

Retardness.

 

[rosjos44]

Because Sony lost all the profits from the previous generations on the PS3, and MS lost a lot of billions too?

MAYBE Nintendo knows what they are doing.

I think many people expect the bigger guy to help out the little guy to some extent. I think many companies out their have bad practices in what they think will be a success or failure. Waiting 3 weeks for your new shipment to arrive does seem a bit much. However, I have a few relatives that are in the military and live in Japan and they pretty much stated to me that people they talk to dislike the high prices in Japan for games and systems. I think this is the major reason why you see a high used game market.

How can people think that certain niche titles will be a huge success in Japan if they have higher marketing budgets and carts will ship faster (faster than 2 to 3 weeks) if the game it self seems like it will only do so well in that Market? Market Analysis is a big part (at least should be ) in your budgeting / forecast plans. Nintendo hits their market all the time and its not simply because they have more funds for marketing ads (this helps alot yes) but its because they know what their buyers want.

I'm not saying number 3 is a big concern because it defiantly can be (the paying up front part).

 

[Thunder Monkey]

not even remotely because they helped third party developers out.

but nice attempt at deflection

MS and Sony prop up a Socialist agenda instead of letting the free-market decide!

To side with anyone other then Nintendo is to side with Socialism... are you a Capitalist or Commie?

 

[Vic]

#3 is a problem even for decent-sized publishers, and reflects Nintendo's conservative business practices. This is not how most manufacturers of media like Technicolor, JVC, Sony DADC operate. Nintendo used to require a line of credit set up so that as soon as the goods are delivered to the dock, invoices are presented and paid immediately. As credit started to tighten worldwide, they started requiring payment up front before manufacturing even begins. Why would any company want to pay for goods not even delivered? What if there's a delay? Defect? Partial shipment?

They get away with it because they own the platform. Virtually every other business offers credit terms to one another. You receive the goods, inspect for completeness, pay within 30-60 days. Some require wire payment instead of paper checks, but nothing as tough as what Nintendo wants.

Wow. Evil geniuses, I say.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

What blows my mind here is the Nintendo has (supposedly) gotten significantly better with their third party relations compared to the Wii's launch.

All four of these points are ridiculous for 2010. The 3 to 4 weeks is understandable with cartridges, but I really hope that isn't referring to Wii discs.

Also this stuff isn't even near all of the problems they have.

They still:

Need to get a competent online system
Support downloadable content
Bring demos to their online store without them disappearing
Need to provide a fair amount of internal storage space in their systems (3DS is a step in the right direction, but not nearly enough)
Not providing competent support for their accessories

And all this is just the tip of it.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to say that Microsoft (lol XBLA policies) or SONY (lol PSP policies) don't have their fair share of bullshit. But Nintendo needs a mountain of work. And if they really want to solidify themselves as the next "Playstation" or even rule the market with the iron fist they had in the 1980's they really have to address these issues.

Because Sony lost all the profits from the previous generations on the PS3, and MS lost a lot of billions too?

MAYBE Nintendo knows what they are doing.

Exactly they do know what they are doing, and the head honcho of Nintendo is telling everybody that they are going to do exactly what you are arguing against.

 

[Amir0x]

*shrug* money ill spent is money ill spent.

Doesn't matter since one thing has absolutely zero, zilch, nadda to do with the other. Nintendo isn't selling systems at a ridiculous loss, and they didn't go with a certain level of hardware that forced them to maintain those losses over a long period of time. Therefore, Sony and MS losing billions BECAUSE OF THAT is not a factor in Nintendo's success or lackthereof with third parties.

It's not like Nintendo doesn't help third parties.

No, it pretty much is exactly like that.

They've loaned Mario to other publishers tons of times. They still get the shitty support from these developers.

Your example of exerting their hand to third parties is allowing a bare handful of developers to whore out Mario? Really? :lol

 

[TunaLover]

Well that's explain alot, anyway it has always been the way that Nintendo run its bussiness, maximizing profit lowering risk. I think they should more friendly with their partners though.

 

[Fredescu]

How does software make up for price?

It changes the value proposition. When the price disparity faded, the software disparity should have been there to take up the slack. People aren't going to buy a console at any price if they don't see value in the software. See: $50 Gamecube.

Most hardcore gamers seem to prefer the better visuals and online of 360 and PS3 and there's little the Wii can do to combat those.

We're talking about the Japanese market here, where "the hardcore" are buying the DS and PSP. I don't think this is a valid argument at all. Maybe the Wii dropped off a cliff because it's not a handheld, which to me is an interesting argument, but it's not the one you're trying to make.

Hence why the PS3's price drops have been so significant. With the casual market seemingly growing saturated, and "hardcore" gamers more inclined to buy a 360 or PS3, I'm not convinced there is a whole heck of a lot Nintendo could have done to vastly turn things around, without having compromised their initial success (such as by releasing a more powerful and expensive system).

I think the market is far more organic than some hardcore/casual dichotomy. I don't think there is any non software related factor that could have prevented traditional games from selling well on the Wii.

 

[zerokoolpsx]

#2 and #3 are harsh. 3-4 weeks to just produce a 2nd batch of games? That can really hurt a smaller developer with a niche title.

Andriasang covered the news which came from Bloomberg Japan: http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2010/09/30/3ds_price/

:lol Oh man.
Nintendo's policies really deter third party support.

 

[hosannainexcelsis]

From the publisher of GalGun...

And the upcoming Umineko remake which will be the PS3 GOTY!

It is disheartening to see that Nintendo has these sorts of policies which are especially harmful to smaller developers and niche games. Hopefully they'll change their ways for the 3DS, since that's likely to be the best platform for these sorts of developers to release on in the upcoming years. Obviously they're working heavily for support from companies like Capcom and Konami, but I want them to factor the Alchemists of the world into their plans as well.

 

[rosjos44]

#2 and #3 are harsh. 3-4 weeks to just produce a 2nd batch of games? That can really hurt a smaller developer with a niche title.

:lol Oh man.
Nintendo's policies really deter third party support.

I think you will see a change with their policies to a point in the next couple of years. I think 3DS will be the start of that change.

 

[redbarchetta]

We're talking about the Japanese market here, where "the hardcore" are buying the DS and PSP. I don't think this is a valid argument at all.

I'll admit I'm not intimately familiar with the Japanese market, and I'll also admit I forgot we were discussing that market exclusively. For that argument, I was definitely referring to the US and Europe. So in that context, yes, that argument may not be relevant (though I still think it holds some merit, but perhaps significantly less than other markets).

I think the market is far more organic than some hardcore/casual dichotomy. I don't think there is any non software related factor that could have prevented traditional games from selling well on the Wii.

There's more to the market than just two demographics, for sure--I enjoy games of both flavors. But it's pretty clear that Nintendo caters to a heavily casual audience who treats the Wii as basically a Wii Sports/Wii Fit Box and purchases additional software at a vastly reduced rate.

 

[Like the hat?]

IMO the only one that doesn't make sense is the not allowing smaller runs

But then again I don't see why a company would want to order just a few hundred extra carts, but I'm sure it comes up. It all depends on what that X is, really. 1-2k? I could understand, maybe. 5k? 10k? That would be ridiculous.

 

[ElFly]

Doesn't matter since one thing has absolutely zero, zilch, nadda to do with the other. Nintendo isn't selling systems at a ridiculous loss, and they didn't go with a certain level of hardware that forced them to maintain those losses over a long period of time. Therefore, Sony and MS losing billions BECAUSE OF THAT is not a factor in Nintendo's success or lackthereof with third parties.

Money is money, no matter where it went.

Your example of exerting their hand to third parties is allowing a bare handful of developers to whore out Mario? Really? :lol

Considering that Sonic and Mario at the Olympic games was Sega's biggest selling franchise for like four years, yeah, it is a lot better than a tv campaign. There's no discussion.

Then Sega turns around and makes the worst versions of the Sonic games on the nintendo platforms?