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LTTP: Bayonetta - or "How not to do QTE" >:|

A

Articate

Banned
So, I've been playing Bayonetta over the last two weeks. I really enjoy the game, and it's up there almost being a new Devil May Cry to me. I'll get to the rant you may see coming from the topic in just a second, but I'd like to start off by saying why this game's battle just isn't as good as DMC.

Because of all the combos. Yes, I'm nearly done with the game now, and I've learnt to master them, but it took half the game. In DMC you learn the basic combos in the matter of missions, then you just need to learn how to stylefully connect it all together, and that's the stuff I love, not being perplexed between if I was trying to do PPPKK.P or PPPKKK or PPKK.K(Hold)PPKP->R1(Forward)K-PP.PP.P. But this might be discussed as it actually does make for fun combat now that I'm done with half the game. I just enjoy the way DMC does it by not giving you 500 combos to being with, but rather layers it on in forms of new weapons and techniques.

But that's ok. It's a different approach. I like that.

But. Holy shit. This is the most retarded way ever to do QTE. Not only that, but I've become accustomed to just spamming R2 coming out of ANY cut-scene, because apparently that's the way you connect action and cut-scenes, but having the enemy ram you in the cut scene, only to give you control, get hit and you sit there going "oh. Right..".

Everything else in the game is great. Pretty standard DMC style stuff. I like it. "PRESS UP AND X!!!!!!! You didn't? Well, now you're dead. Heehee." - it's like the game is just taunting me at this point, because I just silver/gold/platinumed my way all the way through The Tower of Truth on the first try, which I find quite the achievement, thinking I was looking good to survive the whole level by using no items. Felt good. Half HP left when I had killed the reiterated boss outside of the building and the flames start gushing up from underneath the building? Died 3 times. And I could start right there!! It's just like the game refuses me to get good statues by SHITTING on the first time player, whereas the second time you're playing through this game ALL of those fucking retarded obsticles will be moot and outright boring. SO WHY ARE THEY THERE?!

So many bosses do this in one way or other, too. You're beating him good, and everything looks nice. You're learning the patterns of the boss, when suddenly a boss-fight cut-scene comes up "PRESS CIRCLE AND TRIANGLE oops you're dead. You can start exactly were you were and get low ratings. You know, this is how you have to learn the game, you know" it tells me, and I tell it to fuck off before I restart the chapter so I can no-die on this mothafawka. I just see NO reason to put these ridiculously stupid obsticles in the game. It's like McDonalds forcing you to eat the containers the food comes in before you can actually eat the food. In this case it would be playing the game again, just to not die to these ridiculous things. Of course the statues are as pointless as the deaths themselves, but they could at least remove one of them. AND STOP PUNISHING NEW PLAYERS IN ARBITRARY WAYS THAT NO NEW PLAYER CAN GUARD AGAINST.

It has ruined the game for me. It would've been an awesome game without. Now it's just a frustration-fest. I hate whoever's idea this was.
 
K

Kiriku

SWEDISH PERFECTION
I agree 100 %. It's really annoying when you're doing well in a couple of battles only to miss a QTE, die, and get a low ranking. It's so strange, giving the player punishment based on a very digital input when the rest of the game (in battles) is a lot more analog, so to speak. Also, I usually don't have any problems hitting QTEs in time, but I've failed a number of times in Bayonetta.
 
P

Proven

Member
QTEs were the worst part of Bayonetta, yes. I don't think you'll find anyone disagreeing about that.
 
G

Gravijah

Member
One of the few games where I immediately replayed it on the next difficulty. And then the next. Oh, what a game.
 
S

szaromir

Banned
The game's much more enjoyable when you are going for high scores/higher difficulties/achievements/whatever as you know what to expect, but overall the QTEs are indeed terrible.

Why did you choose the PS3 version?
 
Alx

Alx

Member
I don't remember any insta-death QTE... the most annoying one was
the barrage of missiles coming from a flying ship right at the end of a cutscene
, that deals extra-damage , and the only difficult one is
in the last Jeanne fight, when you throw rockets back and forth
.
It's true that the QTEs are not the best part of Bayonetta, but they're also sparse and mostly easy.
 
D

Don

Member
Bayonetta was my favourite game of last year but some of the QTE's were terrible. I don't have a problem when games use them for finishing moves on enemies, but instant death QTE's that appear out of nowhere during cutscenes always suck.
 
U

Uno Venova

Banned
I agree, nothing is worse than going through a whole section with no deaths, only to rack one up just because you missed a button.
 
K

KenOD

a kinder, gentler sort of Scrooge
I was fine, not pleased though, with all but one of the QTE events here. Not sure why, but after fighting Fortitudo and having your half of the church thrown away, I just couldn't get the timing down and would die. Had to go through that video and load up again and again. Rest were easy or didn't matter (bullet spin through lava, never bothered to do it as I didn't have to).

Still, while I love Shenmue, I wish QTE never existed as cut scene moments. I always wish we never had people fall so damn in love with the idea of "tap button furiously", it's rubbish.
 
G

"God's Beard!"

Member
I think the ice skates and secret boss were the only really fun parts of the game. Otherwise I'd rather play DMC1 or Ninja Gaiden Black. Or God Hand.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Pro tip: Hold down the button that you are supposed to press with timing.

Works every time. QTEs are lame but they certainly don't hurt the core combat in the game, which is phenomenal.
 
X

XenoRaven

Member
I guess I'm one of the few that likes a little bit of trolling in my action games. When I die because of a random QTE I didn't expect, or an enemy hits me straight out of a cutscene, I laugh and enjoy the experience. The next time I will avoid the obstacle defiantly. It's all part of the fun for me.

Can I ask how a lame QTE is any different from some ofthe crazy changes in boss patterns or having to jump on the helicopter in Hard Corps Uprising (for those who've played it)? Or would you guys take issue with that too?
 
K

KevinCow

Banned
Alx said:
I don't remember any insta-death QTE...
Click to expand...

How could you have played Bayonetta for any amount of time and not remember insta-death QTEs? I gave up some halfway through and there was at least one in every chapter.

It's like not remembering Bayonetta having embarrassing and horrible cutscenes.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
I haven't played Hard Corps but I will say that I would rather take a change in boss pattern over a random QTE. Reason is that I know that if an attack is coming, I have options to avoid it (Jump with X or dodge with R2). If they throw a QTE at me, then it's a guessing game of any of the 4 buttons (or more) in any combination and if you haven't seen it before you are screwed because of the strict timing.
 
R

Ramenman

Member
Yes Bayonetta's QTEs suck.

But there are like, 3 of them in the whole game ? Who the fuck cares ?

Even when "done well", QTEs are still the lamest thing ever. If you're complaining about the 4 QTEs of Bayonetta, you should never ever play God Of War.
 
Alx

Alx

Member
KevinCow said:
How could you have played Bayonetta for any amount of time and not remember insta-death QTEs? I gave up some halfway through and there was at least one in every chapter.
Click to expand...

Maybe I didn't fail them. :p Like I said I found most of them easy, and those that were hard to avoid were not fatal. Can you remind me which ones were insta-death ?

KevinCow said:
It's like not remembering Bayonetta having embarrassing and horrible cutscenes.
Click to expand...

Even if I did like the cutscenes, it's easy to forget about them actually since after the first playthrough, most will probably skip them all. And seeing most of the game requires at least 3 or 4 playthroughs. :p
 
A

Articate

Banned
I really enjoy the challenges in these types of fighting game. I think I got highest ranking on all missions in DMC4. It's a perfection thing I really like struggling for, and I love the reward of being able to juggle enemies in the air and doing nice combos and getting a lot of combo-points. It's just so daunting caring about perfection when I know there's gonna pop up a button combination or otherwise THE MOON IS FALLING DO SOMETHING OOPS YOU'RE DEAD events which punishes me just because I haven't played the game before.

It does cheer me up to see that everyone's in agreement about this thing, though. Oh, and the story is pretty messy.
 
V

viewtiful_dru

Member
Pretty much the first one in the game, in Chapter Two I think?

The one where you have to jump onto that falling building that's on fire. You miss it, you die.
 
K

KenOD

a kinder, gentler sort of Scrooge
XenoRaven said:
Can I ask how a lame QTE is any different from some ofthe crazy changes in boss patterns or having to jump on the helicopter in Hard Corps Uprising (for those who've played it)? Or would you guys take issue with that too?
Click to expand...

Imagine Metal Gear Solid 4, you go five minutes of watching Ocelot and Solid talk about hair trimming techniques only to be stopped suddenly by "QUICKLY PRESS TRIANGLE TO SCRATCH!", it's out of nowhere and doesn't help the game any from my point of view. That sudden jarring effect of going from observing to supposed to act just isn't how we are trained to behave or watch.
Meanwhile Hard Corps Uprising, I'm always in control of what my character can do on screen, it's never stopped suddenly or long enough for me to feel like I'm observing rather then playing.

I don't like having my movie interrupted by a random "press button now", it's why I never got into FMV games and Xenosaga was my greatest disappointment last generation. QTE moments while you are "observing" to trick you into thinking you aren't playing any more may not hurt the game in some cases, but it's never enhanced the experience either.
 
F

Frankfurt

Banned
XenoRaven said:
I guess I'm one of the few that likes a little bit of trolling in my action games. When I die because of a random QTE I didn't expect, or an enemy hits me straight out of a cutscene, I laugh and enjoy the experience. The next time I will avoid the obstacle defiantly. It's all part of the fun for me.

Can I ask how a lame QTE is any different from some ofthe crazy changes in boss patterns or having to jump on the helicopter in Hard Corps Uprising (for those who've played it)? Or would you guys take issue with that too?
Click to expand...

Because you can see those coming. While QTEs are a crapshoot.

And I say that as someone that only died at one of the Bayonetta QTEs (I played Ninja Blade the week before getting Bayonetta, so I was ready for anything at that point). I don't think QTEs are the worst part of Bayonetta. There's a lot more dumb shit in the game than those, the combos that are only there for aesthetics and don't serve any purpose in actual combat, the incredibly boring boss fights, the camera getting you stuck outside the screen whenever you're close to a wall, the projectiles that hit you from off-screen, the camera being slower than you, the panther transformation serving no purpose besides opening 2 doors, the god-awful writing (no, being a silly game does not justify shitty writing - watch Smoking Aces and Shoot-em-Up for more information), the ugly character designs... If the game didn't have such buttery-smooth controls it would be a total waste of time.
 
A

Articate

Banned
Alx said:
Maybe I didn't fail them. :p Like I said I found most of them easy, and those that were hard to avoid were not fatal. Can you remind me which ones were insta-death ?
Click to expand...

Chruch being thrown at you. Clock-tower falling down. Evading the tentacle of the tentacle boss with circle + triangle. Running away from the flames on the building, which were counter-intuitive. AND THAT STUPID ASS SERPENT THAT CRUSHES THE PATHWAY YOU'RE STANDING ON OUT OF NOWHERE. I still don't know how to properly dodge that one. It's not a QTE, just a "jump away" event, which are also particularily buggy, because the game only recognizes one way of getting away. Dodging will mean death. And that rolling ball down the hill in memory chapter. Yeah, that's just off the top off my head.
 
S

ShockingAlberto

Member
Articate said:
Chruch being thrown at you. Clock-tower falling down. Evading the tentacle of the tentacle boss with circle + triangle. Running away from the flames on the building, which were counter-intuitive. AND THAT STUPID ASS SERPENT THAT CRUSHES THE PATHWAY YOU'RE STANDING ON OUT OF NOWHERE. I still don't know how to properly dodge that one. It's not a QTE, just a "jump away" event, which are also particularily buggy, because the game only recognizes one way of getting away. Dodging will mean death. And that rolling ball down the hill in memory chapter. Yeah, that's just off the top off my head.
Click to expand...
The serpent only kills you if you're running too fast.

It's always going to hit the same place at the same time. If you're in the way, it's going to hit you. It's not a QTE, it's a thing that happens in the level. Like a thwomp.
 
F

Fimbulvetr

Member
Articate said:
AND THAT STUPID ASS SERPENT THAT CRUSHES THE PATHWAY YOU'RE STANDING ON OUT OF NOWHERE. I still don't know how to properly dodge that one. It's not a QTE, just a "jump away" event, which are also particularily buggy, because the game only recognizes one way of getting away. Dodging will mean death. And that rolling ball down the hill in memory chapter. Yeah, that's just off the top off my head.
Click to expand...

That's a setpiece.

You can easily double jump as soon at the serpent goes for the platform.

Also how is it buggy?

And the ball? lol Panther and witch time, it takes no effort.
 
S

ShockingAlberto

Member
Fimbulvetr said:
It's easy as fuck and doesn't penalize you nearly as much as failing a QTE.
Click to expand...
Does failing a QTE punish you? I'm not asking rhetorically, I honestly don't know.

The only time I can recall failing a QTE was on purpose and it started me over at the beginning of the cutscene. I took a hit to my score, but I figured that going in.
 
C

ChronicleX

Banned
QTE's were shoehorned but when are they never shoehorned? Anyways I gotta rip your spine out for this
Articate said:
I'd like to start off by saying why this game's battle just isn't as good as DMC.

Because of all the combos. Yes, I'm nearly done with the game now, and I've learnt to master them, but it took half the game. In DMC you learn the basic combos in the matter of missions, then you just need to learn how to stylefully connect it all together, and that's the stuff I love, not being perplexed between if I was trying to do PPPKK.P or PPPKKK or PPKK.K(Hold)PPKP->R1(Forward)K-PP.PP.P. But this might be discussed as it actually does make for fun combat now that I'm done with half the game. I just enjoy the way DMC does it by not giving you 500 combos to being with, but rather layers it on in forms of new weapons and techniques.
Click to expand...
You are just plain wrong. There are basic combo's in Bayonetta, plenty of them. You are doing it wrong. You want high time, It's the same as DMC. You want todo this games version of the Stringer? It's the same as DMC. You want a basic spam 1 button 5 times combo that varies based on speed of input? It is there, same as DMC.

As for the part in Bold, WTF? You start off with one set of weapons and only one, the rest is either unlocked from the shop, got from bosses or found in the levels you know the same as DMC. Are there moves to buy in the shop = Yes oh look, SAME AS DMC.


You are complaining about problems that do not exist. If you want to know what a move looks like so you understand if your doing it correctly / how it works, that is what the loading screen is for.
 
F

Fimbulvetr

Member
ShockingAlberto said:
Does failing a QTE punish you? I'm not asking rhetorically, I honestly don't know.

The only time I can recall failing a QTE was on purpose and it started me over at the beginning of the cutscene. I took a hit to my score, but I figured that going in.
Click to expand...

Death(whether through failing a QTE or just sucking at the game) not only lowers your end of level ranking(which means your medal bonus will be smaller), but subtracts a large chunk of your halos, hampering your spending power in Rodin's shop.

Don't get me wrong, I've never actually failed a QTE in Bayonetta(okay, maybe this one time), but they were unneeded all the same.
 
Alx

Alx

Member
Articate said:
Chruch being thrown at you. Clock-tower falling down. Evading the tentacle of the tentacle boss with circle + triangle. Running away from the flames on the building, which were counter-intuitive. AND THAT STUPID ASS SERPENT THAT CRUSHES THE PATHWAY YOU'RE STANDING ON OUT OF NOWHERE. I still don't know how to properly dodge that one. It's not a QTE, just a "jump away" event, which are also particularily buggy, because the game only recognizes one way of getting away. Dodging will mean death. And that rolling ball down the hill in memory chapter. Yeah, that's just off the top off my head.
Click to expand...

Trying to remember... I honestly don't think I ever failed the ones in the first few chapters (church, clock tower, escaping the lava...). It's litteraly a "press Y to not die" with a huge time window.
The boss tentacle QTE are not insta-death, if I remember correctly.
And the rolling ball is easy, once you know that all you have to do is run (the panther transformation makes it completely anecdotal, even)

I do remember the many deadly falls from the path destroyed by the dragon/serpent, though, but that's not really a QTE (for some reason I had no problem the first few times, but once I got used to bird/panther transformation, I failed it more often).
 
M

Mutombo

Member
I don't really care about Bayonetta for some sort of reason. It seems it doesn't matter you button mash, you will always hit some sort of combo. At first I thought it'd be one of those games that gets more fun the better you get, but after a few hours more I still found it to be all pretty much the same.

And what I hated the most were the 30 second shootout bonus levels after you completed a chapter. That shit made me feel like a retard because I really never could hit anything.
 
F

Fimbulvetr

Member
Attack You said:
Is there a right way to do a QTE? I don't see how Bayonetta did them any differently than most other games.
Click to expand...

There is, at best, a tolerable way to do a QTE. I'd still honestly just watch a cutscene than do one.
 
U

Uno Venova

Banned
Attack You said:
Is there a right way to do a QTE? I don't see how Bayonetta did them any differently than most other games.
Click to expand...

Well games like GOW and Heavy Rain would give you one or two more tries after you miss a button to still complete the section, I thought those were much better than they way Bayonetta handled it, which was miss one button and you die.
 
F

Fimbulvetr

Member
upJTboogie said:
Well games like GOW would give you one or two retires after you miss a button to still complete the section, I thought those were much better than they way Bayonetta handled it, which was miss one button and you die.
Click to expand...

For the insta-death ones? Nooope.

For the damage only ones? Of course you'll get a second try if you're still alive. Bayonetta has those too.
 
K

KenOD

a kinder, gentler sort of Scrooge
Attack You said:
Is there a right way to do a QTE? I don't see how Bayonetta did them any differently than most other games.
Click to expand...

The only QTE where I thought it was done right, as in made the game better for it, is Mass Effect and punching the reporter in the face. I didn't have to do that, but I sure did appreciate it.
 
Alx

Alx

Member
Attack You said:
Is there a right way to do a QTE? I don't see how Bayonetta did them any differently than most other games.
Click to expand...

I liked how it was done in parts of Shenmue 2 (especially those involving Ren) : it was more about using the usual action buttons (punch, kick, go this way) but triggering a cool animation. And some of them were not required, you could continue playing even if you failed them.
 
U

Uno Venova

Banned
Fimbulvetr said:
For the insta-death ones? Nooope.

For the damage only ones? Of course you'll get a second try if you're still alive. Bayonetta has those too.
Click to expand...
I don't remember getting second tries in the cutscene QTE's from Bayo but it's been a while so I might be fuzzy on some thangs.
 
V

Veelk

Banned
Attack You said:
Is there a right way to do a QTE? I don't see how Bayonetta did them any differently than most other games.
Click to expand...
Not in an action game. The idea is to give the player as much control against difficult enemies as possible. QTE is literally just a cutscene with random button presses as interaction. They are the antithesis to action games, and there is no good way to put them in no more than there is a good diet of pure junk food for someone whose trying to lose weight. At best, like Fimbulvetr said, you can do it in a tolerable way, but nothing better.
 
M

MechaX

Member
Attack You said:
Is there a right way to do a QTE? I don't see how Bayonetta did them any differently than most other games.
Click to expand...

At best, you them like in Vanquish. Not really difficult as they give you a pretty large time window, pretty short and fun to watch, if you mess up, usually it's no big deal and you keep fighting.
 
A

Articate

Banned
Attack You said:
Is there a right way to do a QTE? I don't see how Bayonetta did them any differently than most other games.
Click to expand...

It's the unforgiving nature that's my biggest complaint. If it lead to a different thing happening and me taking some damage, then I won't be ranting about it.

ChronicleX said:
You are just plain wrong. There are basic combo's in Bayonetta, plenty of them. You are doing it wrong. You want high time, It's the same as DMC. You want todo this games version of the Stringer? It's the same as DMC. You want a basic spam 1 button 5 times combo that varies based on speed of input? It is there, same as DMC.

As for the part in Bold, WTF? You start off with one set of weapons and only one, the rest is either unlocked from the shop, got from bosses or found in the levels you know the same as DMC. Are there moves to buy in the shop = Yes oh look, SAME AS DMC.


You are complaining about problems that do not exist. If you want to know what a move looks like so you understand if your doing it correctly / how it works, that is what the loading screen is for.
Click to expand...


What. No, what I said was that there are only the basic combos in Bayonetta and there's about 100 of them. They stay the same when you get new weapons, only a change is speed and what happens when you keep pressing the button, plus probably 5 combos change. That's the problem. New players are so daunted by the immense amount of combos that they don't know which one to do, and they don't know which one they're doing. And seen how incredibly more effective a wicked weave attack is than a normal attack, it just ends up hurting the new player like everything in this game.

And I'm pretty sure doing the same combo over and over will lead to less combo-points, so I have to try and mix it up. High-time was not the same as DMC until you get the katana, and even then you have to master the timing to not do the downward smash afterward or not get airborne. That's a minor complaint, but the idea is that DMC gives you some combos, then gives you some more when you've mastered those. Bayonetta just dumps them all on you and goes "well, my work here is done! Spend some hours in training mode which I btw will not tell you how to trigger".

I can see it being a good discussion if it's better to have a huge complicated system that is rewarding to the experienced player, or a simpler system that is easy to understand, hard to master. I feel DMC4 does both, but in the way of layering new stuff into the game all the time. Works wonders to me. In Bayonetta, once again, weapons are more like chosing how fast your attacks will be than anything. I know there are a few different combos with different weapons, but it's the exact same essense with every single weapon.
 
A

Attack You

Member
It's been...nearly a decade since I've played through Shenmue. I forget how they handled them. Otherwise, I dunno -- it seems to me if you blast one game for QTEs, then you may as well get comfortable because you've got a whole mess of games to rake over the coals.
 
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