[Panajev2001a]

http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...DN/20120038637

and

http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...DN/20120040762


The first is a 2011 patent application by SCE, filed by Richard Marks, in which you can clearly see a depth sensing PS Eye like device providing a 3D view of the scene and the player. Personally, such a camera + a cost reduced move set-up (maybe bundled with PS4) would cover a whole lot of game scenarios very very well.

The second patent details a kind of interesting idea for BC and an idea (coupled with ever improving software emulation) which could help provide excellent BC with future PS home game consoles.
The idea would be to connect a compatibility add-on that would connect to the new generation game console and provide the HW necessary to run the old software on while allowing the user to use the game controls, the output connection, and other resources such as the storage space provided by the new generation device.

This approach would allow one compatibility add-on to power one or more compatibility platforms: a PS3 compatibility add-on for PS4, for example, could help PS4 to play PS3 games as well as PS2 and PSOne titles taking advantage of the software emulators for PS2 and PSOne running on PS3 today and that could run on this kind of add-on.

[JaseC]

I seem to recall the possibility of peripheral-based backwards compatibility being thrown around before.

[Ninja Moomin]

This would be a good getaround for the fact that there likely won't be an Nvidia GPU or CELL processor in the PS4...

If i can't play my PSN library on whatever comes next then count me out.

[jeff_rigby]

http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...DN/20120038637 and http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...DN/20120040762 The first is a 2011 patent application by SCE, filed by Richard Marks, in which you can clearly see a depth sensing PS Eye like device providing a 3D view of the scene and the player. Personally, such a camera + a cost reduced move set-up (maybe bundled with PS4) would cover a whole lot of game scenarios very very well. The second patent details a kind of interesting idea for BC and an idea (coupled with ever improving software emulation) which could help provide excellent BC with future PS home game consoles. The idea would be to connect a compatibility add-on that would connect to the new generation game console and provide the HW necessary to run the old software on while allowing the user to use the game controls, the output connection, and other resources such as the storage space provided by the new generation device. This approach would allow one compatibility add-on to power one or more compatibility platforms: a PS3 compatibility add-on for PS4, for example, could help PS4 to play PS3 games as well as PS2 and PSOne titles taking advantage of the software emulators for PS2 and PSOne running on PS3 today and that could run on this kind of add-on.

Pocket-lint is starting to wonder if that really is the case. Is the next-generation machine really going to be called PS Orbis? Or could that actually be the working title for an entirely different product - a rival to Microsoft's Kinect, perhaps? New evidence uncovered by gaming website Kotaku leads us to favour the latter, even though many sites are claiming it's further proof of the former.

My guess is Orbis is the code name for a suite of games and applications that use the PS eye and/or a new Depth sensing Eye camera and would also include the use of the Vita and handheld devices with cameras and screens to include PS Suite platforms. Augmented reality would be one possible use.

The publish dates for the patents might mean they are for a PS4. It's possible the depth sensing camera could find it's way to the PS3 hopefully with better S/N and low light. The depth sensing camera patent was published the same month that OpenMax 1.2 was published and it has APIs necessary to support a Depth sensing camera or Orbis.

This is old news. Second thread started here.

It will never be just that. Kinect-like functionalities would actually enhance the Move possibilities as they provide extra information about player absolute position/distance/orientation so you don't have to guess that via Move tracking. ie Move alone can't tell the difference between moving to the side or just extending the arm to the side. Or between moving forward or extending your arm forward. I see this as an upgrade of the "PS Eye-side" of the whole Move set up.

[BoilersFan23]

This would be a good getaround for the fact that there likely won't be an Nvidia GPU or CELL processor in the PS4... If i can't play my PSN library on whatever comes next then count me out.

Some PSN games will probably work on PS4 easily; however, some games that utilizes the PS3 architecture (Cell and RSX) might not work regardless, unless a developer re-works on a game to make it work on PS4.

[theBishop]

ugh.

[jeff_rigby]

Similar roadmap for Sony?

Exclusive: Next Xbox to have Blu-ray, Support Augmented Reality Glasses 2011 - 2015 Zoom in on the pictures.



Exclusive: Early Details on Microsoft’s ‘Kinect 2′

[davepoobond]

i think we're in the growing pains period between "traditional gaming" and "superubercool holosuite gaming."

no one ever thought that too hard about the transition period in the middle and how much it sucks

[jeff_rigby]

i think we're in the growing pains period between "traditional gaming" and "superubercool holosuite gaming." no one ever thought that too hard about the transition period in the middle and how much it sucks

The USB port on the PS3 can't support higher resolution cameras, PS3 has memory limitations but the SPU can do a very good job at gesture and speech recognition. IF the PS3 had more memory it might have been practical to connect a higher resolution camera to the Gigabit network port (expensive). A better depth sensing low res camera (same res as Kinect 1.0) for the PS3 USB port is still possible

Xbox 360 has more memory (memory pool not split) but the PPU can't process recognition routines as well as SPUs so it can't use a higher resolution camera to process finger recognition and only gross movement recognition is attempted.

Next generation game consoles with USB 3.0 and more memory as well as APUs are going to allow for a MUCH BETTER Kinect 2.0 as well as a depth sensing high resolution camera for the Sony PS4.

[TriGen]

Seems likely enough. This is definetly the time where companies are trying to bridge the gap between casual and core gaming fans.

[jeff_rigby]

I ran across this PS3 gesture recognition patent

Published May 21, 2012 http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20120135805.pdf


PS3 - May 2012 published Gesture Recognition is controller and Move input only, no depth sensing camera mentioned.

[Satchel]

I ran across this PS3 gesture recognition patent Published May 21, 2012 http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20120135805.pdf PS3 - May 2012 publish Gesture Recognition + Depth sensing camera for the PS3????

So Kinect for PS3?

[jonabbey]

I ran across this PS3 gesture recognition patent Published May 21, 2012 http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20120135805.pdf PS3 - May 2012 publish Gesture Recognition + Depth sensing camera for the PS3????

It'd be great if the next PlayStation Eye was HD. It's always been disappointing that the Eye is as low-res as it is.

Though the low-light sensitivity is great.

[Ninja Moomin]

Some PSN games will probably work on PS4 easily; however, some games that utilizes the PS3 architecture (Cell and RSX) might not work regardless, unless a developer re-works on a game to make it work on PS4.

wait.... there are ps3 games which don't use cell and rsx?

[Agent Icebeezy]

Similar roadmap for Sony? Exclusive: Next Xbox to have Blu-ray, Support Augmented Reality Glasses 2011 - 2015 Zoom in on the pictures. Exclusive: Early Details on Microsoft’s ‘Kinect 2′

Those glasses seem interesting

[jeff_rigby]

It'd be great if the next PlayStation Eye was HD. It's always been disappointing that the Eye is as low-res as it is. Though the low-light sensitivity is great.

It's probably still going to be run low-res for AR but might have better performance now that OpenMax 1.2 is a standard:

The OpenMAX IL 1.2 camera component is also updated with the following advanced capabilities: Enhanced Focus Range, Region and Status support; Field of View controls; Flash status reporting; ND Filter support; Assistant Light Control support; Flicker Rejection support; Histogram information; Sharpness control; Ability to synchronize shutter opening and closing events with audio playback.

Video demoing SOEmote the real-time personal expression of characters, truly bringing the roleplay back to roleplaying games. The new feature is based on the revolutionary facial recognition software created by Image Metrics and integrates Vivox’s Voice Font technology.

Video demo

[patsu]

The second patent details a kind of interesting idea for BC and an idea (coupled with ever improving software emulation) which could help provide excellent BC with future PS home game consoles. The idea would be to connect a compatibility add-on that would connect to the new generation game console and provide the HW necessary to run the old software on while allowing the user to use the game controls, the output connection, and other resources such as the storage space provided by the new generation device. This approach would allow one compatibility add-on to power one or more compatibility platforms: a PS3 compatibility add-on for PS4, for example, could help PS4 to play PS3 games as well as PS2 and PSOne titles taking advantage of the software emulators for PS2 and PSOne running on PS3 today and that could run on this kind of add-on.

Muahahahaa~ Was wondering about this since I heard of LightPeak and Thunderbolt. If they do it right, they can also sell an updated PS3 with a (cheap) upgrade module to PS4 too. It's just a matter of perspective.

[patsu]

So Kinect for PS3?

Kinect is very depth camera specific.

That Sony patent applies more to recognizing gestures from a variety of sensors together (e.g., Dual Shock + depth cam).

[jeff_rigby]

http://www.internmatch.com/internshi...tion-intern--4 March 2012 Intern Job posting

This intern will work within the Acoustic Analysis Group and the team is looking for motivated and enthusiastic students who will contribute to the voice recognition system and technologies for the PlayStation platforms. Examine and create window tools for multi-modal audio and video data collection. Analyze multi-language emotional speech data and create baseline. Engage research for improving voice recognition for emotional speech and kid’s speech. Conduct multi-modal emotion recognition, including video recognition when possible. Improve the robustness of voice recognition for noisy conditions, including array processing and speech enhancement. Speaker identification, speech synthesis, and voice morphing.

Emotion recognition in voice so the game can react is part of the feedback for AR.

[Angelus Errare]

Alright! Even more accesories! Just fucking pile them on Sony!

Hey parents, want your kid to play Wonderbook 2?

You'll only need

PS3
Eye 2
Move
Eyetoy 3D
Sony Head Goggles
Wonderbook

SIMPLE AND STRAIGHT FORWARD

[Jal]

HW BC makes perfect sense, everyone can have BC if they want it but it doesnt add extra cost to the system for those who don't care.

[patsu]

Alright! Even more accesories! Just fucking pile them on Sony! Hey parents, want your kid to play Wonderbook 2? You'll only need PS3 Eye 2 Move Eyetoy 3D Sony Head Goggles Wonderbook SIMPLE AND STRAIGHT FORWARD

IMHO...

Wonderbook should be an eBook gaming platform for PS Mobile and Vita.

PSEye, EyeToy 3D, and Move essentially enable natural interfaces for apps and gaming.

Head Goggles, 3D glasses should be a separate visualizing platform by itself.

They all can be used by PS3, but they should not be limited to just PS3 only. Should extend to all Sony and perhaps 3rd party devices.

[jeff_rigby]

I occasionally go back over old threads and this one just begs for an update.

There will be a new Xbox361 (in Microsoft powerpoint) and called Xbox365 in one cite released this holiday 2012. The digitimes rumor of a PS4 (must be a PS3.5 if released in 2012) now in hindsight has more weight and it has a Kinect Interface supporting a depth camera.

Xbox361=Xbox365=Xbox Infinity=Xbox project 10 Is a Xbox360 with 1080P HDMI pass-thru, low power modes, updated interfaces and likely more memory. = XTV like Google TV support

http://controversy.typepad.com/video...rs-at-ces.html

"According to reliable sources, the Xbox Infinity (which has a slight chance of being called Xbox 365 when it launches) has in fact been revealed to major developers at the 2012 CES! The reason these developers have not mentioned anything to the public or the media is because the developers have signed a contract preventing the console from being discussed publicly. And from what I'm told, the Xbox Infinity is still on schedule to be released in time for Christmas of 2012 in North America. I'm looking forward to seeing the Xbox Infinity in action at the 2012 Electronic Entertainment Expo!"

Xbox365 is the XTV Xbox 361 and is scheduled for Christmas season 2012 in North America

365 is indicating the same that PS3.5 indicates, newer hardware. HDMI pass-thru, low power modes and newer hardware is going to require emulating the older hardware not the 3 PPC processors.

XTV with HDMI pass-thru implies always on low power modes. Low power modes require hibernate, the ability to turn off parts of the console hardware at will. Low power modes would be very very hard to implement in older hardware designs. It's probably easier and cheaper to trash the older designs and start over.

My speculation is based on economics, would it be cheaper for both Microsoft and Sony to use exactly the same SOC....how much would it cost to include 6 plus SPUs Vs. the savings in one SOC for both. Both will have to emulate Xbox360 and PS3 respectively IN ANY CASE. Considering how tiny SPUs are at 32nm, AMD producing everything but the 2 1PPC+4SPU wafers and IBM assembling the AMD parts with the IBM manufactured PPC & SPUs = Oban and economical. Also, using the same interfaces (updated AMD hardware) as the PS4 and Xbox720 in the PS3.5 and Xbox365 insures common interfaces and accessories that can be used by all. This insures economy of scale where it matters, for LCD glasses for instance. Xbox has 10 megs of eDRAM used by the GPU and PS3 needs very fast memory for SPUs. Both can be supported with a faster down-scaled custom GPU and wide I/O ram inside the SOC. Since PS3 and Xbox360 will have to be emulated, more than 512 meg memory is needed. My guess would be two 500meg custom packages for a total of 1 Gig (Extra memory for the OS above that needed for emulation.

1) The 2010 Xbox 720 powerpoint is old and some newer indication that Xbox361 is still valid was needed. There are three for Xbox361=Xbox365=Xbox Infinity= Xbox Xfinity=Project 10 all released Christmas season 2012.

2) It is a new SOC with upgraded hardware using PPC processors so it will need to emulate a Xbox 360 not emulate PPC processors. There are two cites and common sense for this.

3) IF Sony is doing the same and the Digitimes rumor would indicate this then Sony will have to do the same most likely with exactly the same AMD hardware. That the Digitimes rumor has a PS4 (Has to be a PS3.5 if released in 2012) with a Kinect interface also supports the same hardware in both as does microsoft-sony.com and sony-microsoft.com. Both the Digitimes rumor and Microsoft domain registration occurred the same month; July 2011. This is the least supported with only one cite by a source that is considered unreliable.

XTV=> is 800 million new CE connected to internet market between now and 2016
PS3 will have HTML5<video>, Playready DRM and WebMAF by end of Oct.
Both Xbox and PS3 will have full browser support by the end of the year for the first time ever. WHY? How are they going to make money? What does this imply?

This is hindsight for the most part given the Xbox 720 powerpoint and a review of old rumors that now make sense.

The recent 56 page Xbox 720 powerpoint document mentioned a cheaper Xbox361 to support XTV with 1080P HDMI pass-thru coming 2012 holiday season. IF Microsoft is releasing a XTV refreshed Xbox then Sony is most likely releasing a similar model. Have there been any reports supporting this?

The answer is yes if you assume News bloggers have been confused assuming new models coming out in 2012 are Xbox 720 or PS4.

Digitimes Rumor: http://kotaku.com/5817874/report-the...otion-controls

"Taiwanese component makers tell tech site DigiTimes that Sony is readying a new home console for 2012. But that's not the interesting part. These component manufacturer sources tellDigiTimes that the PlayStation 4 will feature body-movement controls like Microsoft's Kinect. That's the interesting, if not unexpected, part. The PS3 currently has PlayStation Move motion controls, which are similar to the Wii's motion controls. The report states Foxconn and Pegatron Technology will assemble the PS4 for Sony. Foxconn and Pegatron Technology both assemble the PS3, which was originally manufactured in Japan. Sources told DigiTimes that the PS4 will go into production at the end of 2011 for a 2012 launch. Apparently Sony will manufacture 20 million PS4 consoles for 2012."

[shagg_187]

Jeff Rigby! I've missed your posts!

"PS3 will have HTML5<video>, Playready DRM and WebMAF by end of Oct."

I freaking hope so!

[jeff_rigby]

Jeff Rigby! I've missed your posts! "PS3 will have HTML5<video>, Playready DRM and WebMAF by end of Oct." I freaking hope so!

Take it to the bank as I have two independent sources and it fits with the Gnome cycle for webkit2 and Gstreamer 1.0.

Khronos says Augmented Reality is starting in Sept, Gnome Cycle is Sept 28 so we will get: Of course you will have to pay for anything but base functionality.

1) updated browser
2) This Christmas Season a New PS3 model that can support the camera from this thread as well as HDMI pass-thru and low power modes.
3) a massive update to the PS3 OS
4) Augmented Reality
5) Something like a Google TV, XTV etc.
6) Ultraviolet Apps
7) HTML5 Apps
8) Browser Desktop

And more! I have a 20% or less accuracy on when things get released or implemented so take dates with a grain of salt. As to what's coming I'll be proved to be VERY accurate.

Information developed in these threads. This is hindsight for the most part given the Xbox 720 powerpoint and a review of old rumors that now make sense. The 56 page powerpoint lays out Microsoft's plans and those parallel Sony plans. There is even a partnership between them (microsoft-sony.com) that now becomes clear.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=473780

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=478668

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=477540

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=402172

[Glix]

Some PSN games will probably work on PS4 easily; however, some games that utilizes the PS3 architecture (Cell and RSX) might not work regardless, unless a developer re-works on a game to make it work on PS4.

Some might have to be transferred from PS3, while other games may only be B/C in one territory but not another.

They will hold PSone and PStwo compatibility back until at least the summer after the platform has shipped.

Seems like a smart plan.

[Hanmik]

Take it to the bank as I have two independent sources and it fits with the Gnome cycle for webkit2 and Gstreamer 1.0. Khronos says Augmented Reality is starting in Sept, Gnome Cycle is Sept 28 so we will get: 1) updated browser 2) This Christmas Season a New PS3 model that can support the camera from this thread as well as HDMI pass-thru and low power modes. 3) a massive update to the PS3 OS 4) Augmented Reality 5) Something like a Google TV, XTV etc. 6) Ultraviolet Apps 7) HTML5 Apps 8) Browser Desktop And more!

Normally I would dismiss most of this.. but seeing that you have proved me wrong before, I have to take your word for this.. and damn it sounds amazing..!

[Drencrom]

Take it to the bank as I have two independent sources and it fits with the Gnome cycle for webkit2 and Gstreamer 1.0. Khronos says Augmented Reality is starting in Sept, Gnome Cycle is Sept 28 so we will get: Of course you will have to pay for anything but base functionality. 1) updated browser 2) This Christmas Season a New PS3 model that can support the camera from this thread as well as HDMI pass-thru and low power modes. 3) a massive update to the PS3 OS 4) Augmented Reality 5) Something like a Google TV, XTV etc. 6) Ultraviolet Apps 7) HTML5 Apps 8) Browser Desktop And more! I have a 20% or less accuracy on when things get released or implemented so take dates with a grain of salt. As to what's coming I'll be proved to be VERY accurate.

Rigby at it again! Not sure what to think of this but you make it seem plausible :lol

[jeff_rigby]

Another patent for image and Sound capture using the depth camera in this thread. First filed Oct 26, 2011 and published Feb 23, 2011.

[PetriP-TNT]

[phosphor112]

Another patent for image and Sound capture using the depth camera in this thread. First filed Oct 26, 2011 and published Feb 23, 2011.

How does it sense depth? I've been wondering this.

[Galvanise_]

I remember hearing on the grapewine a long time ago that they had a version of the PsEye in internal testing that had two cameras instead of the one. It was basically a wider PsEye. I'm not a technical guy, but it was suggested to me that it was a depth sensing camera and could do some other funky stuff. Resolution was said to be considerably higher.

[jeff_rigby]

How does it sense depth? I've been wondering this.

A pulsed Infra Red source and then the reflected intensity difference. Closer should have higher intensity, as you move a hand toward or away from the camera the intensity of the IR reflection off the hand changes. This method needs allot of control over the camera settings and there was no standard for this until OpenMax 1.2 which was published to insiders Nov 2011 and to us Feb 2011.

Sony could have developed their own standard but for game developers to be able to easily port between platforms there must be industry standards.

I remember hearing on the grapewine a long time ago that they had a version of the PsEye in internal testing that had two cameras instead of the one. It was basically a wider PsEye. I'm not a technical guy, but it was suggested to me that it was a depth sensing camera and could do some other funky stuff. Resolution was said to be considerably higher.

I'd guess that higher res two camera 3-D or simulated 3-D with 1 camera may wait for the PS4 but that's just a guess. Depth camera for PS3 I think is coming.

[jeff_rigby]

If you want to make it your thread go through this list of Sony patents and present the more interesting ones that would use a camera and gesture recognition and apply to XTV, Augmented Reality and gaming.

1094 Sony patents give insight into Sony views on the future of XTV and gaming.

[androvsky]

This method needs allot of control over the camera settings and there was no standard for this until OpenMax 1.2 which was published to insiders Nov 2011 and to us Feb 2011.

Oh come on, there's no need for a proprietary camera for a closed, proprietary system to use an open standard for something like that. If anything is holding back a more advanced PS Eye camera it's simple business positioning; they're not going to launch it before the PS4.

[jeff_rigby]

Oh come on, there's no need for a proprietary camera for a closed, proprietary system to use an open standard for something like that. If anything is holding back a more advanced PS Eye camera it's simple business positioning; they're not going to launch it before the PS4.

A Industry standard API for control (Openmax IL 1.2) of the camera is needed if a Company is supporting an ecosystem or has plans to support multiple platforms with the same AR or casual gesture and voice control application or game or intends to support RTC or AR from a web browser (The browser must have a industry standard W3C sanctioned API control.) OpenMax 1.2 was delayed from 2008 till 2011 and to my mind signals the official start of what I believe you think is ONLY coming with the PS4 (next generation).

You should have objected to my previous post:

"PS3 will have HTML5<video>, Playready DRM and WebMAF by end of Oct." + WebGL + SVG + accelerated display. I have four independent sources and it fits with the Gnome cycle for GTKwebkit2 (and QT and EFL) and Gstreamer 1.0.

Khronos says Augmented Reality is starting in Sept, Gnome Cycle is Sept 28, Khronos says use Browser libraries to leverage support for Augmented Reality.

Iincluding a new camera is an assumptions based on XTV and AR launching in a big way this Sept. This is industry wide and the reason for OpenMax 1.2 including camera APIs and memory support in openmax to support Gstreamer-openmax . It's going to be part of the casual push coming (from Sony quotes).

"New PS3 model that can support the camera from this thread as well as HDMI pass-thru and low power modes. " IS wild speculation based on both PS3 and Xbox360 refresh occurring for the first time ever at the same time, both targeting AR and XTV (Xbox 360 will have a browser for the first time ever) and the Xbox 361 mentioned in the Xbox 720 powerpoint being a XTV (1080P with HDMI pass-thru) which implies low power modes = massive redesign. Add that to the Digitimes rumor, Sony can not let the Xbox have price and feature advantages and both are in competition for the same living room ecosystem.

Next generation, both Xbox 720 and PS4 are designed to fully support an ecosystem with serving to other video and audio platforms in the home. This generation can only partially support SOME ecosystem features planned for next generation.

[Canis lupus]

@Jeff: what are Ultraviolet apps and browser desktop?

[jeff_rigby]

@Jeff: what are Ultraviolet apps and browser desktop?

Ultraviolet apps

A Browser desktop is hard to define as it can take many forms, it can look exactly like the current XMB as the XMB UI already uses a subset of web browser native libraries (XML & OpenVG). The idea is to use and reuse the same libraries for the UI with Zero copy and to support opening windows to the web from the XMB or using Webkit libraries and javascript for applications as much as possible. This reduces load times for HTML5 apps, the browser and could eliminate the need to reboot every time an application is run.

If the XMB is a browser UI then just about anything possible in a browser is possible on the XMB. WebGL animation, AR, Browser windows, XTV....it's really exciting.

Edit: For instance MiiVerse on the WiiU is browser based and looks like another knockoff of the OLPC sugar interface (Similar to Vita).

androvsky and I have supported a new browser coming to the PS3 despite much criticism. He didn't believe Sony would rewrite the PS3 XMB to support a browser desktop. I thought the XMB would need to be rewritten to use Cairo and neither of us knew that the XMB was already using OpenVG which it turns out is essentially identical to the 2D SVG portion of Cairo. Sony just needs to support OpenGLES2 for the XMB and Cairo-eGL is supported, no other changes needed at least for the UI.

His opinions may have changed but it appears he still thinks small changes....he could be right and I am over estimating what's coming.