• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Kickstarter abuse? after collecting $300k ($50k goal) dev opens another ks for $1m

N

nickcv

Member
http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/11/27/pathfinder-online-begins-second-kickstarter-project/

Earlier this year, the folks at Goblinworks created a Kickstarter project for the tech demo version of their fantasy sandbox MMO Pathfinder Online. Not only did the team crush their initial goal of $50,000, but they went on to raise over $300,000 to create the demo. The Kickstarter bug seems to still be biting because the studio has announced another Kickstarter project for the completion of the game.
Click to expand...

With a new goal of one meeeellion dollars, Goblinworks hopes to expand from their tech demo and utilize the new team to make the very best Pathfinder Online possible.
Click to expand...

first kickstarter:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1675907842/pathfinder-online-technology-demo

We announced Goblinworks and Pathfinder Online this past November because we wanted you, our community supporters, to hear about it first from us rather than getting hints from the grapevine that something was up at Paizo. Since that announcement, we’ve had amazing meetings with MMO publishers and developers, game designers, and potential investors.
Click to expand...

This Kickstarter will fund the Technology Demo of the Pathfinder Online Massively Multiplayer Online RPG. The Technology Demo will be fully playable, integrating account management, character creation, a virtual world server, multiple simultaneously connected clients, middleware used for rendering landscapes and characters, basic game mechanics, and player communications. The demo will only support a few simultaneous users exploring a couple of small locations, so the general public won't be able to play it, but we will produce a short video of the demo that everyone will be able to experience, and a special longer video exclusively for backers of this Kickstarter.
Click to expand...

Your support of the Technology Demo will help us raise awareness of Pathfinder Online and will show potential investors what the game is really about. Funding this demo will also signal to potential partners that Pathfinder Online has an audience that's large enough and dedicated enough to allow the long-term success of the MMO. Nothing speaks louder than a ton of people putting up money to show their support of a new concept—that’s the genius element of Kickstarter!
Click to expand...

what we can get from their KS is that they already talked to investors and publisher who probably just wanted to see a demo before giving them any money.


second kickstarter:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1675907842/pathfinder-online-a-fantasy-sandbox-mmo

Since then, we have put together our starting team, created the Technology Demo, and released the 96-page Thornkeep book, meeting our three month timeline and our budget. We proved through the Technology Demo that the Goblinworks team has the chops to pull off Pathfinder Online. Our hard work has been recognized. We have secured the financing we need to put the game into production. Thanks to YOU, Pathfinder Online will be a reality!
Click to expand...

We want to build Pathfinder Online quicker and with more content than our current financing will allow. Rather than finding additional outside investors to put in additional money, we believe we can reach our funding goals right here, on Kickstarter.
Click to expand...

WAT?

We would rather report to you, our customers, than to some investor who is only interested in how quickly they can get a return on their investment. This Kickstarter is all about rallying the community so we can make Pathfinder Online Bigger, Better and Faster than ever!
Click to expand...

well... yeah... so you really want us to believe that whatever your backers think comes before the needs of the investors you already have?

i don't know about you guys, but i think the whole thing really is disappointing
 
W

Wolf Akela

Member
I've been a KS naysayer for a while. I always imagined that it'd be abused. Things like this will just kill Kickstarter overtime.
 
G

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
I'm amazed they were funded so much for a tech demo in the first instance. But can't say they weren't clear about what the first KS was for.

As for the second round, yeah, it sounds a bit contradictory.
 
C

Cheesemeister

Member
We would rather report to you, our customers, than to some investor who is only interested in how quickly they can get a return on their investment.
Click to expand...

Translation: "We would like to take your money up front and give you no royalties."
 
S

sp3000

Member
If you are rewarding someone with money with no track record, you are not using kickstarter right.

Give money to Obsidian, not some no name team
 
J

JaseC

gave away the keys to the kingdom.
Kickstarting a project that promises to deliver nothing more than a tech demo to show to potential investors doesn't strike me as particularly frugal. More to the point, however, trying to mask the fact that this demo failed to attract the necessary attention by launching a second, $1m Kickstarter and attempting to assuage concern by saying you have "secured the financing we need to put the game into production" is monumentally stupid.
 
S

samman6

Member
The Kickstarter bubble is going to burst soon maybe a year or 2 tops. Too many projects and too much room for abuse.
 
B

BomberMouse

Member
They can ask whatever they want, it's up to the people if they fall again for it or not. IMHO it's an abuse. The best part?

c88d9c2c13153624b144f0041524399a_large.png


4 years away. I don't think they have bad intentions, they just don't have a fuking idea of how to use kickstarter and release an iterative game.
 
A

Aquamarine

Member
With our current funding, we will be able to get to the Early Enrollment phase of Pathfinder Online in two years, and the Open Enrollment phase will begin two years after that. However, if we reach our Kickstarter funding goal of $1 million, we will be able to shave off a year from our initial development and Beta timelines, allowing us to release the game to Early Enrollment customers in 1.5 years and the Open Enrollment release following 1.5 years after that.
Click to expand...

Oh wow! A whole YEAR for ONLY one million dollars in donations!
 
W

wrowa

Member
4 years of development with a budget of a million dollars? Are they a team of 5 people? How is that supposed to work out?

Apart of the shaky financials, I wouldn't regard this as an abuse, though. They were pretty clear that they only produced a tech demo with the initial kickstarter and needed more money to actually enter production. If they haven't found a publisher or no publisher who's willing to invest as much money as they need, going back to Kickstarter seems to be a logical conclusion. Or do the people who donated the first time around rather have the game cancelled?

If they are talking the truth or now, who knows. They are saying that they've got an investor, but who knows if that's really true. Or if they really want to develop the game and not just have fun with a million bucks -- 4 years from now no one will remember the project anymore anyway or something. But, well, that's the risk of kickstarter.
 
DiscoJer

DiscoJer

Member
Bear in mind, Pathfinder is essentially D&D.

When Hasbro/WOTC moved D&D to 4th edition, which was radically different than 3.0/3.5 and past editions, many fans didn't, they moved to Pathfinder, which was almost literally D&D 3.75, made possible by WOTC releasing the bulk of the D&D rules via an open license. Ironically, at the behest of the guy who is the head of this Kickstarter, who worked at WOTC at the time (and in between worked at the company that makes EVE Online).

By some accounts, Pathfinder outsells D&D 4th edition. It's disputed, but it just being close is huge, since D&D has dominated RPG sales since basically the beginning.

So it's not exactly no name people. But at the same time, it's big enough that they should have their own money to invest. Certainly they had enough for the tech demo. But I guess that KS success gave them a taste they couldn't resist.
 
N

NSider

Member
From the FAQ:
What happened to the $300K you got last time?

We used the proceeds of the Pathfinder Online Technology Demo to build the Technology Demo and to develop the Thornkeep book, and to pay for the production and fulfillment of the rewards we offered in our first Kickstarter.


Why didn't you fund the game with your first Kickstarter?

Pathfinder Online has a production budget of millions of dollars. Before we felt comfortable raising that much money we decided that we needed to do the Technology Demo to prove that we have the team and the capability to do the work. Now that we've succeeded with the Technology Demo we think we've reduced the risk for investors and for Kickstarters to an acceptable level.
Click to expand...

First KS was for watching a long tech demo video and swag (only the really high tiers included alpha testing).

Second KS is to fund the development of the actual game by letting people basically preorder it. They do have investors but they're not nearly enough, an MMO of that proposed size needs a lot of money and an actual publisher, so they're turning to interested fans:

Is the whole budget coming from this Kickstarter?

No. Most of the budget is being provided by our initial investors, but the money we're raising on Kickstarter is the difference between a 4 year development plan and a much faster, much larger plan.
Click to expand...

They probably have a plan B if this second KS doesn't succeed, but they apparently prefer to have the fans fund it.

I'm not even remotely interested in this game btw.
 
A

Aquamarine

Member
NSider said:
They probably have a plan B if this second KS doesn't succeed, but they apparently prefer to have the fans fund it.
Click to expand...

Oh no! If we don't get another million dollars from a second Kickstarter, we will just HAVE to settle with a 4 year development plan! How ever shall we survive?
 
N

nickcv

Member
NSider said:
From the FAQ:


First KS was for watching a long tech demo video and swag (only the really high tiers included alpha testing).

Second KS is to fund the development of the actual game by letting people basically preorder it. They do have investors but they're not nearly enough, an MMO of that proposed size needs a lot of money and an actual publisher, so they're turning to interested fans:



They probably have a plan B if this second KS doesn't succeed, but they apparently prefer to have the fans fund it.

I'm not even remotely interested in this game btw.
Click to expand...

the investors are enough... they are not saying that the game won't go live anyway, they just want the money to speed up the development... and letting people think that backers will have any input in a project where there's already a publisher is shady as hell...

Aquamarine said:
Oh no! If we don't get another million dollars from a second Kickstarter, we will just HAVE to settle with a 4 year development plan! How ever shall we survive?
Click to expand...

you definately are one of my favorite posters here, Aquamarine
 
R

RyougaSaotome

Member
You're crazy if you tossed money at them the first time for nothing more than a video of a demo. That's just silly, kickstarter or not.
 
D

dock

Member
Hahaha! What an awesome 'fuck you' to the people that gave them $300k.

This is the third 'second kickstarter' I've seen from successful and greedy developers.
 
V

Vagabundo

Member
Pathfinder is owned by Paizo who have a good rep in the DND/RPG community. They produce quality TTRPG stuff. I'm not a fan, but they have a rabid fanbase. So I'm not surprised they exceeded their first kickstarter.

Pathfinder fans will probably pony up for the new kickstarter. I think it is shady, but Paizo are probably a bit oblivious TBH.

It's not a trend I'd like to see start happening.
 
J

J10

Banned
sp3000 said:
If you are rewarding someone with money with no track record, you are not using kickstarter right.

Give money to Obsidian, not some no name team
Click to expand...

I thought the point of Kickstarter was to help people who have no track record get started on one.
 
T

Tash

Member
REALLY FISHY!
I have a love/hate relationship with Kickstarter but I have to say that it's down to the backers own intelligence (or stupidity in most cases) to back or not back a project.

I mean seriously. If you don't see something fishy with a project that hardly shows anything and you still part with your money the joke's on you.

Like I mentioned in another thread. Too many people are treating kickstarter like facebook or other social media channels now.

They like (aka fund) something they like and want to be part off without much thinking or checking of facts. However I also have to say that it's sometimes hard to judge a project if you are not involved with the game development industry.

I really hope that doesn't develop into a trend with starting several kickstarters for the same project though..
 
F

firehawk12

Subete no aware
You were never getting a game with the first Kickstarter attempt though, so I'm not sure why people would feel cheated.
 
V

V_Arnold

Member
Wolf Akela said:
I've been a KS naysayer for a while. I always imagined that it'd be abused. Things like this will just kill Kickstarter overtime.
Click to expand...

No. Things like this will make users vary of huge goals without anything to back it up. Or it will make KS to make more strict rules. It will not kill anything. There is a real need from players to get content that otherwise they would not be able to get.
 
T

Tash

Member
firehawk12 said:
You were never getting a game with the first Kickstarter attempt though, so I'm not sure why people would feel cheated.
Click to expand...

It's more the fact that they say they have the funding (from investors or other sources) now but they still need us to give them money from what I understand.
 
Z

Zizbuka

Banned
I'll never 'get' the whole kickstarter thing. It's not like there's not already tons of games to play.

Sorry, but if you blindly give money to someone, no sympathy.
 
Z

Zaptruder

Banned
Although Kickstarter has kind of evolved into this advanced preordering system...

people need to realise that at the end of the day, they're putting money into things that they like the idea of, not a guaranteed product that they're getting an advanced screening of.

It's why people pay massively disproportionately for the higher tier goals - simply because it makes it more likely to get the thing made - the thing is what you really want, the rest isn't worth shit without that thing.


Still, Kickstarter makes it so that promises aren't made frivilously - that if people use it in bad faith, that they're subject to recourse from the donors.
 
O

Opiate

Member
Zizbuka said:
I'll never 'get' the whole kickstarter thing. It's not like there's not already tons of games to play.

Sorry, but if you blindly give money to someone, no sympathy.
Click to expand...

The short answer to your implicit question is this, Ziz: some people have tastes which are not being catered to. Particularly in the "hardcore AAA" or console markets, where production design has continuously narrowed in scope. Space sims are one example of a recently kickstarted genre which have literally no representation on the PS3/360, and have had essentially no support on PC for the past 5 years as a consequence of this. Isometric RPGs are nearly as barren. Point and Click adventure games have been on the out for quite some time, although they've had at least some representation.

So if your personal preferences are those types of games, then there are not "tons of games to play." I sold both my PS3 and 360 because they both have nothing to play and are barren of interesting releases. If you disagree, that's fine: I "get" your position.
 
F

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Tash said:
It's more the fact that they say they have the funding (from investors or other sources) now but they still need us to give them money from what I understand.
Click to expand...
Ryan Payton and Chris Roberts did the same thing though... unless there's something particularly sketch about this one?
 
O

Opiate

Member
Aaron said:
This is the first game kickstarter I hope fails, and there's been plenty I haven't supported.
Click to expand...

Not even the Molyneux one? Or the recent Braben one?

I'm glad that we're starting to see some pushback on Kickstarters. Not because I don't like Kickstarter -- I very much do -- but because it's important to remain vigilant.

By propping up kickstarter, game players have retaken tremendous power from publishers, but in the process we'll also need to start guarding ourselves from charlatans, fools, and scam artists -- people who had (mostly) been kept out by publishers previously.

But now the responsibility falls on us, so I'm glad to see some signs that we're actually doing it.
 
N

nickcv

Member
firehawk12 said:
Ryan Payton and Chris Roberts did the same thing though... unless there's something particularly sketch about this one?
Click to expand...

the problem is that they are not asking for more money because otherwise they won't be able to make the game.
they are asking for more money just to speed up development.
and they are even telling people that if they back the project they will have a saying in it

We would rather report to you, our customers, than to some investor who is only interested in how quickly they can get a return on their investment. This Kickstarter is all about rallying the community so we can make Pathfinder Online Bigger, Better and Faster than ever!
Click to expand...

and that's never gonna happen.
the investors and publisher they already have are not going to care about whatever a bunch of random people think, they are going to force their hands on the developers, and if the developers won't do it and will defend the backers the publisher and investors will probably just ask for their money back.

they are luring people in with false promises.
 
T

Tellaerin

Member
Zizbuka said:
I'll never 'get' the whole kickstarter thing. It's not like there's not already tons of games to play.

Sorry, but if you blindly give money to someone, no sympathy.
Click to expand...

I suppose you're completely satisfied with the games that are being produced now, then. Your gaming needs are totally covered, and there aren't any genres or themes that you're interested in that are being neglected by publishers.

If that's the case, then lucky you.

For those of us who aren't satisfied, Kickstarter projects are a way to help get the kinds of games that we're interested in made.

That's why I get irritated with the people who whine about how Kickstarter's a scam because they're not going to see a return on their "investment". The return is that you're helping to bring about the creation of something you really wanted to play, which either wouldn't exist or would only exist in some watered-down form if it wasn't for donations. If that's not sufficient motivation to donate, then don't.
 
T

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
Tellaerin said:
For those of us who aren't satisfied, Kickstarter projects are a way to help get the kinds of games that we're interested in made.
Click to expand...

Or stop buying games, take up another hobby, don't give money to scams?

That's why I get irritated with the people who whine about how Kickstarter's a scam because they're not going to see a return on their "investment". The return is that you're helping to bring about the creation of something you really wanted to play, which either wouldn't exist or would only exist in some watered-down form if it wasn't for donations. If that's not sufficient motivation to donate, then don't.
Click to expand...

Okay, so riddle me this: You gave $1-300K to this kickstarter. They say they're using that to get a publisher, they (obviously) don't get a publisher: They ask for $1million to complete the game and the game has no release date except "by 2016." How is that a "good investment" even if you want the game to come out? Obviously this is either 1) a scam or 2) publishers saw their tech demo, and didn't think it was going to be a million dollar seller to give them a million to make the game.

Obviously the "game you want" isn't profitable. So instead of refunding the money or admitting defeat and saying "sorry, guys", they're asking for more, really?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Kosmos Xenosaga Piano Collection Kickstarter Launched With $32,785 Goal
News
2
353
German Hops replied
Former Kingdom Come Deliverance art director launches Kickstarter campaign for 2D pixelart game called Scribe RPG
6
723
March Climber replied
The Last of Us Online has been cancelled
News 10 11 12 13 14
678
33K
Tiago Rodrigues replied
GIBiz: After 200 unsuccessful pitches in 2 years, Deliver Us Mars dev Keoken Interactive says the way games are funded is "failing"
Business Game Dev
24
1K
SmokedMeat replied
Starfield Devs Q&A Session
37
3K
Hendrick's replied
Top Bottom