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[Aquamarine]

At first i thought scam but looking closely it is valid.

1st kickstarter was only technology demo that would help them get investors and prove people that they have skill to do full scale MMORPG.

Second one is for actual game they have some investors but this also means royalty to them. Pledging money to them will mean that studio will earn a lot more from game.

I don't have any interest in this game but it is hardly fishy.

If I understand this correctly, this second Kickstarter is so they can develop the game "faster."

It's a pretty horrible reason to have a Kickstarter, especially because they have explicitly stated that the game is going to be developed and released regardless.

But just like with the Molyneux Kickstarter, it's well within their rights.

The people will decide if this is a valid project.

 

[JimFear]

i hate kickstarter its a fucking cancer... I dont like the fact that you actually give money for something that doesnt really exist now.

I still think it can be easy to a company to take the money and run.


Personnaly, i prefer buying the game when it come out than giving money to someone who dont have enough money to do a game and ask me to give them some money.

 

[Gravijah]

Personnaly, i prefer buying the game when it come out than giving money to someone who dont have enough money to do a game and ask me to give them some money.

who doesn't prefer prefer buying a game when it's out and knowing how it is? but the world isn't so simple. these games may not (likely would not) exist without this funding. you don't have to fund them, but i don't see how they are a cancer.

 

[schwabdizzle]

I think Kickstarter is bullshit. You are not guarenteed what you invest in is made and if it is not, you are not guarenteed you will get your money back. I don't see why so many people invest in these things.......I guess for hope.

 

[SerRodrik]

I think Kickstarter is bullshit. You are not guarenteed what you invest in is made and if it is not, you are not guarenteed you will get your money back. I don't see why so many people invest in these things.......I guess for hope.

Everyone that backs a project knows the risks going in, or at least they should. It's obviously worth the risk to us in return for getting games that would not/could not be made in today's market.

 

[morningbus]

i hate kickstarter its a fucking cancer... I dont like the fact that you actually give money for something that doesnt really exist now.

I still think it can be easy to a company to take the money and run.


Personnaly, i prefer buying the game when it come out than giving money to someone who dont have enough money to do a game and ask me to give them some money.

The point in most of these kickstarters is that these games wouldn't get made without these fundraisers. It isn't a paying now vs. paying later proposition.

 

[Midou]

Everyone that backs a project knows the risks going in, or at least they should. It's obviously worth the risk to us in return for getting games that would not/could not be made in today's market.

Yes. And once again, it doesn't seem like many of the big name projects may have happened with traditional funding. I will risk my $15 in hopes that an adventure game series I loved to death gets another entry, rather than spending $0 and never getting to play it again. The answer is obvious to me.

What some people also don't realize, is that in many instances, you are getting the game for lower than retail cost. Star Citizen once again as an example, will be $60 at retail, but was $25-30 for people who pledged. So you are both funding it, and getting it at a huge discount. Of course the risk is, what if it fails? But again, if it's a big enough name, and a project you aren't likely to see otherwise, it's worth the risk for me.

 

[schwabdizzle]

Everyone that backs a project knows the risks going in, or at least they should. It's obviously worth the risk to us in return for getting games that would not/could not be made in today's market.

I agree, but what if people are taking advatage of broken promises and taking people's money. I just see a lot of loopholes for crooks to take advantage of people.

 

[Lancehead]

I think Kickstarter is bullshit. You are not guarenteed what you invest in is made and if it is not, you are not guarenteed you will get your money back. I don't see why so many people invest in these things.......I guess for hope.

If you've paid attention to what the people who back Kickstarter projects have been saying in just about every thread on this matter, or, at least, Opiate's posts in this thread, then you don'y have to wonder why.

 

[Currygan]

kind of glad I only donated 10£ since Kickstarter came into existence

 

[Joates]

So they would rather have a zero interest financing? Shocking. How does all this shit work legally? Seems like a whole lot of grey area.

 

[SerRodrik]

I agree, but what if people are taking advatage of broken promises and taking people's money. I just see a lot of loopholes for crooks to take advantage of people.

Of course there can be scams, but that's why you pay attention to who's making the pitch, what they're promising, and what their past history is, and you evaluate how risky you think the project is, and whether that risk is worth it. Will there be scams? Almost certainly. That's why it pays to be cautious about what you back, but I don't think that invalidates Kickstarter entirely.

 

[schwabdizzle]

If you've paid attention to what the people who back Kickstarter projects have been saying in just about every thread on this matter, or, at least, Opiate's posts in this thread, then you don'y have to wonder why.

Well, I know why they back things, but if you are not guarenteed your money back, then I don't know why.

 

[Ferrio]

My problem with kickstarter is the fact there's people potentially making a lot of money off your investment, while you don't get the same benefit. If kickstarter was TRUELY this bastion of giving power to the gamers, it'd give every donater stock in the company. But no, it's some watered down bullshit with the promise of a single game with maybe some goodies. It's any companies dream, investors that you don't have to pay out to.

 

[schwabdizzle]

Of course there can be scams, but that's why you pay attention to who's making the pitch, what they're promising, and what their past history is, and you evaluate how risky you think the project is, and whether that risk is worth it. Will there be scams? Almost certainly. That's why it pays to be cautious about what you back, but I don't think that invalidates Kickstarter entirely.

I agree totally....I am just saying....it only takes a few bad apples to ruin the bunch.

 

[DyTonic]

About to open up one on this X6 I've been dreaming about.

 

[Orayn]

I agree totally....I am just saying....it only takes a few bad apples to ruin the bunch.

Do you really think people are going to start stealing en masse because somebody else got away with it? That's pretty cynical.

 

[Row]

after the pennyarcade ks I wrote the site off as an unethical pos

 

[schwabdizzle]

Do you really think people are going to start stealing en masse because somebody else got away with it? That's pretty cynical.

No I am saying there are people that could technically get away with it.

 

[Midou]

Do you really think people are going to start stealing en masse because somebody else got away with it? That's pretty cynical.

Of course every service with money involved will have scams like this, but they will always be the minority. It would take someone like Obsidian or Double Fine to screw up to ruin kickstarter, and I somehow doubt that would happen.

 

[U n i o n 0015]

My problem with kickstarter is the fact there's people potentially making a lot of money off your investment, while you don't get the same benefit. If kickstarter was TRUELY this bastion of giving power to the gamers, it'd give every donater stock in the company. But no, it's some watered down bullshit with the promise of a single game with maybe some goodies. It's any companies dream, investors that you don't have to pay out to.

A great point and #1 reason I've avoided the Kickstarter bandwagon.

Also, have any of the big Kickstarter games come out yet? It'll be interesting to see how successful they are in the marketplace once they're released. The biggest I can think of will be Double Fine Adventure.

 

[Orayn]

after the pennyarcade ks I wrote the site off as an unethical pos

After Duke Nukem Forever, I wrote off video game publishing as an unethical POS.

So they would rather have a zero interest financing? Shocking. How does all this shit work legally? Seems like a whole lot of grey area.

They're donations, Kickstarter just organizes and promotes projects for people to donate to.

 

[Lancehead]

Well, I know why they back things, but if you are not guarenteed your money back, then I don't know why.

You mean game getting cancelled, not made? It's a matter of perspective. The risk vs reward trade-off is generally very different for those who really like the game.

 

[Orayn]

A great point and #1 reason I've avoided the Kickstarter bandwagon.

Also, have any of the big Kickstarter games come out yet? It'll be interesting to see how successful they are in the marketplace once they're released. The biggest I can think of will be Double Fine Adventure.

The biggest that's currently available is Chivalry: Medieval Warfare, I believe. Sequence, FTL, and Giana Sisters: Twisted Dreams are a few others that are available right now.

 

[EVOL 100%]

kickstarter is a cancer now? Seriously?

 

[Midou]

My problem with kickstarter is the fact there's people potentially making a lot of money off your investment, while you don't get the same benefit. If kickstarter was TRUELY this bastion of giving power to the gamers, it'd give every donater stock in the company. But no, it's some watered down bullshit with the promise of a single game with maybe some goodies. It's any companies dream, investors that you don't have to pay out to.

In most cases, it's nothing more than a pre-purchase of the game. I don't want power as a gamer, I want shit to come out that might not normally come out at all. I don't even care about Double Fine's process for making the game or giving input, I just wanted them to make an adventure game again, and this way they can.

Gamers have always been saying 'man, I'd pay a lot of money to see x being made', and now they can put their money where their mouth is. It seems a lot of people are serious about seeing games made we may not normally see. I paid $110 towards the Double Fine kickstarter and got a t-shirt, poster, and some other minor goodies, plus I will be getting a blu-ray of their documentary, which looks quite great from the episodes I've seen, plus a limited edition boxed copy. If this was on Amazon for the same amount, I would have still bought it and felt the price was fair. In 90% of cases, you are just paying the price you would anyways. Only when you get up into the higher pledges is it an actual investment, and not just a pre-purchase of the game, but I don't care about that, because I, like most people, am not putting in $1000.

 

[schwabdizzle]

You mean game getting cancelled, not made? It's a matter of perspective. The risk vs reward trade-off is generally very different for those who really like the game.

Right and I will not judge people how they spend their money. Heck, I saw a guy spend $100 on powerball tickets. Also, I am ok with people making profit off a kickstarter. I am just concerned that there is room for people to make broken promises with the intent to take people's money and not give anything in return and you can really not know.

 

[Lancehead]

Right and I will not judge people how they spend their money. Heck, I saw a guy spend $100 on powerball tickets. Also, I am ok with people making profit off a kickstarter. I am just concerned that there is room for people to make broken promises with the intent to take people's money and not give anything in return and you can really not know.

I can see people getting more selective (be it because of trust issues or financial) as time passes, and tend to back those with substantial content during the funding period. Star Citizen definitely raised the bar, and the average level will have to rise if developers hope to get funding.

 

[Castor Krieg]

i hate kickstarter its a fucking cancer... I dont like the fact that you actually give money for something that doesnt really exist now.

I still think it can be easy to a company to take the money and run.

I think Kickstarter is bullshit. You are not guarenteed what you invest in is made and if it is not, you are not guarenteed you will get your money back. I don't see why so many people invest in these things.......I guess for hope.

Kickstarter rules explicitly state the company HAS TO deliver on their promises, or provide refunds to backers. It is no different than a simple prepayment - the company can go bankrupt just as easily.

 

[barugon]

I glanced over some of the articles but didn't see. What did the devs do with the extra $250k? Surely they're putting it back into the game?

While I don't disagree with profiting from KS as a rule, I think you owe it to your audience to put any proceeds back into the product before requesting more money.

 

[boutrosinit]

Fucking vile.

 

[SapientWolf]

the problem is that they are not asking for more money because otherwise they won't be able to make the game.
they are asking for more money just to speed up development.
and they are even telling people that if they back the project they will have a saying in it



and that's never gonna happen.
the investors and publisher they already have are not going to care about whatever a bunch of random people think, they are going to force their hands on the developers, and if the developers won't do it and will defend the backers the publisher and investors will probably just ask for their money back.

they are luring people in with false promises.

It wouldn't be wise to disregard the suggestions coming from people who are the most likely to subscribe to this MMO.

 

[Sentenza]

i hate kickstarter its a fucking cancer... I dont like the fact that you actually give money for something that doesnt really exist now.

I still think it can be easy to a company to take the money and run.


Personnaly, i prefer buying the game when it come out than giving money to someone who dont have enough money to do a game and ask me to give them some money.

This is probably the most embarrassing post in the whole thread, for both the hilariously stupid incipit and for missing completely the whole point of Kickstarter, about what's making it so popular.

You just can't "buy these games when they come out" because in most cases they are not going to "come out" at all without people funding them.

 

[Stumpokapow]

I'll repeat this like I seem to have to every Kickstarter thread.

Personally, I've backed 19 projects.
- 5 were not funded, and thus cost me nothing.
- Obos are a series of cardboard desktop figures. I backed a set of all 6 Obos. Here is a photo of the Obos sitting on my desk.
- Pixel Sand was a small independent game. There have been regular demos and betas, and the most recent version looks orders of magnitude better, like something visually closer to Sword and Sworcery.
- On Begley Street I backed a web TV series. Filming has gone well, and it looks like PBS is going to simulcast it going forward.
- Farmageddon - it's a board/card game. Here's my copy of Farmageddon, on my desk.
- L'Chaim! I backed a documentary about a professional chess player who quit working to take care of his elderly, Holocaust-survivor mother. They're doing additional final shooting, and they've since been awarded a bunch of outside funding for reshoots and editing. In the mean time, I've seen a 5 minute segment, and the short, rough version of the film has competed in film festivals.
- Manifold Clock. I backed a 3D, math-inspired clock. It's very cool, the intersection between math and art.Here's a photo of the box the clock came in, at my house.
- Outreach: Dex's Odyssey. I funded this pixel art game which was pretty neat. They sent me a copy on PC. Here's the link to the game on sale on the iTunes store. Here's the Steam Greenlight campaign to get it on Steam.
- Nubuwo Indie Music Bundle. I backed an Indie Music bundle so I can get the soundtrack to ilomilo. I now have the soundtrack to ilomilo.
- Americana Dawn. I backed a 16-bit RPG about early America / the American revolution. Using the funding, the art has been massively improved and the game continues to be developed. It'll be released for free, so you can also thank me for making that possible.
- Spike I backed this weird game. It's very weird. New screenshots are being released all the time. There's an early gameplay demo available.
- Sira I backed this adventure/puzzle game. There's been a beta of the game.
- Jason Rohrer's Diamond Trust of London for DS. Here's a photo of my physical copy. One of the rarest DS games ever printed.
- Knock Knock, the latest game by Ice-Pick Lodge. Since being Kickstartered, they've made the game multiplatform, and it's slated to release Q1 2013. They've shown development info and screenshots since the KS.
- Project Eternity. Obsidian has done frequent updates, and right now they're doing a Q&A on GAF about the project.

So, here's the thing. We all know that Kickstarter is a giant scam, that people are going to take my money and run, that it's impossible to know if projects are going to just randomly fold or fail, etc. So why is it that I haven't been scammed? Or have I been scammed? Who scammed me? You can see my whole successful backing history above. Who is it that's rode off into the sunset with my donation?

 

[SapientWolf]

My problem with kickstarter is the fact there's people potentially making a lot of money off your investment, while you don't get the same benefit. If kickstarter was TRUELY this bastion of giving power to the gamers, it'd give every donater stock in the company. But no, it's some watered down bullshit with the promise of a single game with maybe some goodies. It's any companies dream, investors that you don't have to pay out to.

The SEC would come down hard on something like that.

 

[jcm]

Kickstarter rules explicitly state the company HAS TO deliver on their promises, or provide refunds to backers. It is no different than a simple prepayment - the company can go bankrupt just as easily.

How does kickstarter enforce that rule? Will they make backers whole themselves? Will they sue? The answer is they don't, no and no.

It is very different from a simple prepayment. If I prepay for a game at gamestop, and the developer goes out of business, gamestop will give me my money back. If I kickstart a game, and the developer goes out of business then I'm SOL.

You are not buying something when you kickstart. You are donating money.

 

[Stumpokapow]

How does kickstarter enforce that rule? Will they make backers whole themselves? Will they sue? The answer is they don't, no and no.

It is very different from a simple prepayment. If I prepay for a game at gamestop, and the developer goes out of business, gamestop will give me my money back. If I kickstart a game, and the developer goes out of business then I'm SOL.

It's... not possible for anyone at any level of society to "enforce" the rules, short of holding the money in escrow, which prevents the funding objective to begin with. The only thing Kickstarter could do that they don't would be pursue lawsuits themselves, but ultimately that would be pretty fruitless since most hypothetical failures are not going to be crooks dashing with sacks of cash, it's going to be people or teams running out of cash, so suing them would produce pretty much nothing that an Honour-code "Issue refunds if something comes up that prevents you from completing the product" wouldn't.

 

[Minsc]

How does kickstarter enforce that rule? Will they make backers whole themselves? Will they sue? The answer is they don't, no and no.

It is very different from a simple prepayment. If I prepay for a game at gamestop, and the developer goes out of business, gamestop will give me my money back. If I kickstart a game, and the developer goes out of business then I'm SOL.

You are not buying something when you kickstart. You are donating money.

I've read of kickstarters that have fallen apart and failed to deliver offering to return money, so it's not as dire as you describe (plus as Stump so strongly makes the point in his list a little above, you hopefully have some intelligence behind what you choose to back so you don't suffer the dreaded 100% failure rate some people seem to worry about). If you're that worried about the money, just wait until it releases, there's plenty of games which were done through kickstarter that have been released and you can buy today. And there will be even more in the future. That way you get all the benefit, and none of the risk.

 

[jcm]

It's... not possible for anyone at any level of society to "enforce" the rules, short of holding the money in escrow, which prevents the funding objective to begin with. The only thing Kickstarter could do that they don't would be pursue lawsuits themselves, but ultimately that would be pretty fruitless since most hypothetical failures are not going to be crooks dashing with sacks of cash, it's going to be people or teams running out of cash, so suing them would produce pretty much nothing that an Honour-code "Issue refunds if something comes up that prevents you from completing the product" wouldn't.

I've read of kickstarters that have fallen apart and failed to deliver offering to return money, so it's not as dire as you describe (plus as Stump so strongly makes the point in his list a little above, you hopefully have some intelligence behind what you choose to back so you don't suffer the dreaded 100% failure rate some people seem to worry about). If you're that worried about the money, just wait until it releases, there's plenty of games which were done through kickstarter that have been released and you can buy today. And there will be even more in the future. That way you get all the benefit, and none of the risk.

You guys misunderstood me. I'm not saying kickstarter sucks, or it's all scams. I'm saying that it is not the same thing as preorder or prepayment for a product. It's not the same legally, and it's not the same effective thing. And I think theres lots of people who don't realize that, including the poster I was responding to.

Kickstarting is a donation, not a purchase of a product.

 

[MrHicks]

i don't like that the developers get to keep the IP and the potential profits

the only "return" kickstarter people have on investment is "the game possibly gets made"
too onesided in the devs favor

 

[sangreal]

You guys misunderstood me. I'm not saying kickstarter sucks, or it's all scams. I'm saying that it is not the same thing as preorder or prepayment for a product. It's not the same legally, and it's not the same effective thing. And I think theres lots of people who don't realize that, including the poster I was responding to.

Kickstarting is a donation, not a purchase of a product.

What's your basis for saying it is not the same legally? There is no donation language anywhere on kickstarter -- you're purchasing a reward and I don't see how the recourse is different than any other undelivered purchase (eg court).

 

[Criminal Upper]

I find it hilarious this is all for an MMO, which of course, will be destined to fail.

 

[Stumpokapow]

You guys misunderstood me. I'm not saying kickstarter sucks, or it's all scams. I'm saying that it is not the same thing as preorder or prepayment for a product. It's not the same legally, and it's not the same effective thing. And I think theres lots of people who don't realize that, including the poster I was responding to.

Kickstarting is a donation, not a purchase of a product.

It is the purchase of a product. And just like any other store on earth, if you purchase your product and they don't send it to you, then you rely on either their goodwill or your legal remedies to solve the problem. Neither is actually a good option, and the whole system relies basically on trust. Like with retail, you have the capacity to issue a chargeback on your credit card, but like with retail, if you choose to do so the retailer might choose to no longer serve you--in this case the retailer is the payment processor, IE Amazon, so chargebacks are not a great defence unless you want to permanently burn bridges.

 

[Tash]

"
too onesided in the devs favor

I think that really depends on what you offer as a dev - generally I agree though but it's still up to you to say no and not spend money.

 

[jcm]

It is the purchase of a product. And just like any other store on earth, if you purchase your product and they don't send it to you, then you rely on either their goodwill or your legal remedies to solve the problem. Neither is actually a good option, and the whole system relies basically on trust. Like with retail, you have the capacity to issue a chargeback on your credit card, but like with retail, if you choose to do so the retailer might choose to no longer serve you--in this case the retailer is the payment processor, IE Amazon, so chargebacks are not a great defence unless you want to permanently burn bridges.

Do you actually have the ability to do a chargeback? I know many credit cards have a limit to the amount of time you have to file for a chargeback, and for most projects that basically have a product as the reward, that time will have long passed. Here's an interesting article I read on the subject, from a smart financial writer who has actually talked to the kickstarter people.

My guess is that there's a reason kickstarter is so careful to call it a "reward", and that you don't have the same recourse as someone who has bought a product. If it is the same as buying a product, then they are violating Visa's T&C by charging the card before shipping the product. I'd be interested in knowing how they got around that. The answer could just be that retailers of Amazon's volume get to make their own rules. But I know my company isn't allowed to charge without shipping in the case of merchandise sales, but is allowed to do it in the case of a donation to a nonprofit with a reward item of a t shirt or whatever.

Edit: I was looking through the comments on this failed kickstarter project, and at least one person claims his cc comaopny refused his chargeback. Obviously, I can't vouch for this person, but here's a least one anecdote:

ozymandias on July 13
@Chris Clark, Nope. My credit card said that I had 30 *DAYS* after payment was made to submit a claim. Since they managed to delay 6 months before they actually were late delivering the glasses, Visa could care less. I would have had to file a claim 5 months before my pre-order was late to have them care.

Those backers appear to be organizing a lawsuit, so maybe we'll have some case law to cite in the next few years.

What's your basis for saying it is not the same legally? There is no donation language anywhere on kickstarter -- you're purchasing a reward and I don't see how the recourse is different than any other undelivered purchase (eg court).

You've got it backwards. There is no purchase language anywhere on kickstarter. You are getting a "reward" for "backing a project".

 

[Ithil]

I think Kickstarter is bullshit. You are not guarenteed what you invest in is made and if it is not, you are not guarenteed you will get your money back. I don't see why so many people invest in these things.......I guess for hope.

You are not an investor. You are donating.

They do give out rewards for it, but it is a donation, NOT an investment.

 

[Slavik81]

You are not an investor. You are donating.

They do give out rewards for it, but it is a donation, NOT an investment.

It is not a donation, either. That implies each backer is giving a gift. However, backers give money with the promise of receiving something in return.

The exchange of money for goods or services is generally considered a purchase. That's what Kickstarter is: the pre-purchase of goods which have not been created yet.

 

[Rubius]

You are not an investor. You are donating.

They do give out rewards for it, but it is a donation, NOT an investment.

As a Gamer I see this as an investement. Why? Because Top Down Turn based RPG, Platformers, Point and Click games and a whole bunch of games are nearly dead because of the FPS era. Having awesome new games may encourage other devs to think outside the box for a while, giving ME new games to play. Its like backing a new Video game type of movie, I want to see more stuff like Video game Highschool and Wreck It Ralph, so I watch those , and promote them a little bit.

So far I backed 27 Projects.
-I wore the Backlogerry shirt yesterday
-I received the Double fine goodies (pooster, Shirt, pins)
-And The Gianas Sisters was awesome.

Every kickstarter give me constant updates, to the point where I sometime get 14 emails a day from Kickstarter.

 

[Arksy]

It is the purchase of a product. And just like any other store on earth, if you purchase your product and they don't send it to you, then you rely on either their goodwill or your legal remedies to solve the problem. Neither is actually a good option, and the whole system relies basically on trust. Like with retail, you have the capacity to issue a chargeback on your credit card, but like with retail, if you choose to do so the retailer might choose to no longer serve you--in this case the retailer is the payment processor, IE Amazon, so chargebacks are not a great defence unless you want to permanently burn bridges.

Actually stump, an argument could be made that you're not actually creating a contract with kickstarter. It's an argument that could go either way depending on the circumstances but your legal options with kickstarter are more limited than they would be otherwise. It's to do with the definitions of consideration. That's not to say that if consideration is not found your options have run dry. Promissory estoppel would engage but because it is an equitable doctrine your remedies are more limited.

Traditionally if companies wanted to raise money they had to do it through the share market and as a result the state has stepped in and created stringent conditions on the rights of shareholders and companies, rights which in the case of kickstarter just don't exist despite the fact that the system is essentially constructed as a pseudo-share.

I've always wanted to have a discussion on kickstarter and its circumvention of the share market but I don't think this is the right thread.

 

[Karak]

Kickstarting is a donation, not a purchase of a product.

Correct. As long as people keep that in mind and keep smart on how they "donate" or "fund" most will likely turn out ok. To me it sure does feel more like a donation than anything. Maybe an investement if the project really seems either far along, the peeps have credentials, or I am just super stoked and REALLY personally invested myself in it.