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Richard Dawkins has not read the Quran, how can he criticize Islam

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M

Maninthemirror

Banned
2yBfBQ1.png


and then he responds with this

1X9hYUQ.png


Article related to it

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/30/dawkins_harris_hitchens_new_atheists_flirt_with_islamophobia/

1. He compares Islam to a societal cult based of fundamentalism and whose origin was born of Hate of just society. If anyone knows anything about true Islam, it is the opposite of Nazism

2. He has never read the Quran, the fundamental to the whole teaching of Islam. If you saw Islam is evil, why pick a verse when all surrounded verses are connected to it as reference and say this one verse is proof of its evil nature.
 
I

IHaveCandy

Banned
I've never read Atlus Shrugged, and yet I still have some understanding of objectivism. You don't have to read a holy book to understand a religion pretty well. He's admitting he isn't fully studied on the religion though. I think there is plenty to criticize about both Christianity and Islam without opening any of their books.
 
dorkimoe

dorkimoe

Member
the same way millions of Christians dont read the bible but follow it?

Does he criticize everything in it though? Or just parts he knows about?
 
M

Metrotab

Banned
The books are only facilitators of the religion.

The main source of doctrine for their followers are not the books anyway, I'd reckon, especially since both Islam and Christianity are very fractured in their interpretation of the holy scriptures, anyway.
 
F

FillerB

Member
The same way millions of people criticize a whole religion/country/fandom/etcetera based on the actions of a small vocal group.
 
M

Maninthemirror

Banned
UltraMagnanimous said:
All religion is evil, including Islam, but how would the original poster rate it in terms of goodness vis-a-vis other religions?
Click to expand...

So I being a follower of Islam or someone who is a Jew or Christian, and follow the concepts of their original teaching after reading the whole book, Would I or a fellow Jew or Christian be evil for following its teachings?
 
R

Raynes

Member
Anyone can criticize Islam, the religion of "peace" when it has laws that prescribe stoning for things like adultery and homosexuality.
 
M

Maninthemirror

Banned
Metrotab said:
The books are only facilitators of the religion.

The main source of doctrine for their followers are not the books anyway, I'd reckon, especially since both Islam and Christianity are very fractured in their interpretation of the holy scriptures, anyway.
Click to expand...

That is wrong especially Islam. Islam's complete teachings are in Quran and what is NOT in the Quran is in the Hadith. Everything in Islam is connected to those two, nothing else.


Raynes said:
Anyone can criticize Islam, the religion of "peace" when it has laws that prescribe stoning for things like adultery and homosexuality.
Click to expand...

A fundamentalist says Islam says stone for adultery and homosexuality, A peaceful Muslim says the example of adultery and homosexuality is a story of society and laws in Arabia at that time and Quran actually tells people that everything is between Man and God and not Man and Man and God. You go ahead and chose the fundamentalist version? I call that convenience to make your point without logic
 
L

Log4Girlz

Member
I don't see how anyone can criticize the Greek gods without having read every scrap of religious text. How can you believe in any particular religion if you haven't read all the others? What if you read a text and discovered that its followers were correct and it was truly godly? How can any christian ever say they believe in the true god's words when another religion claims the same? Are you not conflicting with that religion without having ever read their religious text?

I suppose all religions ultimately should be immune to criticism from anyone who have not read their texts.
 
M

Metrotab

Banned
Maninthemirror said:
So I being a follower of Islam or someone who is a Jew or Christian, and follow the concepts of their original teaching after reading the whole book, Would I or a fellow Jew or Christian be evil for following its teachings?
Click to expand...

I hate the word 'evil'.

If you'd follow the doctrine as prescribed literally, you'd certainly be unethical.

That is wrong especially Islam. Islam's complete teachings are in Quran and what is NOT in the Quran is in the Hadith. Everything is connected to those two, nothing else.
Click to expand...

The many different sects in Islam lead me to think otherwise. I'm not a religious scholar, however.
 
J

jtb

Banned
I agree with his point, but, really... there's nothing wrong with reading the damn books. If you're going to rail against them as much as Dawkins does, surely it just gives you more ammunition anyways. At the very least, make your own judgements of the texts off the TEXTS themselves.
 
H

hym

Banned
Richard Dawkins is a scientist not a theologian, most of the arguments I heard from him still stand no matter what a monotheistic religion proclaims. The reason he and others appear prejudiced against Islam in specific is because most denominations there have an innate oppressive nature.
 
K

KmA

Member
He is pretty much equating messed up Muslims as a proper representation of Islam. And saying he is slightly hyperbolic is an understatement.

Dawkins should be free to criticize, but it seems he is just trying to stir up trouble by making sensationalist comparisons.
 
H

hym

Banned
KmA said:
He is pretty much equating messed up Muslims as a proper representation of Islam. And saying he is slightly hyperbolic is an understatement.
Click to expand...

When those 'messed up Muslims' are the caretakers of the fifth pillar of Islam theme park it becomes hard to deny that there is no connection with all the rest.
 
M

Maninthemirror

Banned
hym said:
When those 'messed up Muslims' are the care takers of the fifth pillar of Islam themepark it becomes hard to deny that there is no connection with all the rest.
Click to expand...

Fifth Pillar of Islam clearly says in Quran and Hadith that only use Jihad of Sword when Islam as a religion is under threat by people who are using weapons. When Islam has more than a billion people and is everywhere, Jihad of Sword becomes invalid nomatter where it is as its inconceivable in today's society. why Couldnt intelligent people not understand this and instead they accept the fundamentalist version?
 
B

butts

Member
I could get a good look at a steak by sticking my head up a bulls ass, but I'll take the butchers word on it
 
W

wrowa

Member
Actually, I don't think his Mein Kampf comparison was that far off.

Wait, don't kill me just yet.

Of course, the comparison between nazism and Islamism is quite insulting and wrong. So, I'm not saying you can compare the themes of the books. But, and here's the point, Mein Kampf is a piece of propagandism. In the same vein, holy books - be it the Bible or the Quran - are also at the very least to a certain degree propagandism. They want to convert the readers after all. This is not saying that they are teaching something bad, but that they obviously are far from being objective works about their respective topics. It you want to judge something, a more distanced objective work is to be preferred as the base of your argument.

So I can kinda understand his point; even though he probably has chosen the very negative example on purpose to reflect his negative views of Islamism -- so, I guess I'm giving him more credit than he deserves.
 
S

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Maninthemirror said:
2yBfBQ1.png


and then he responds with this

1X9hYUQ.png


Article related to it

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/30/dawkins_harris_hitchens_new_atheists_flirt_with_islamophobia/

1. He compares Islam to a societal cult based of fundamentalism and whose origin was born of Hate of just society. If anyone knows anything about true Islam, it is the opposite of Nazism

2. He has never read the Quran, the fundamental to the whole teaching of Islam. If you saw Islam is evil, why pick a verse when all surrounded verses are connected to it as reference and say this one verse is proof of its evil nature.
Click to expand...

well, Islam isn't the Qur'an. But Al Qaeda is Islamic. And the Bible never says Black people can't marry white people but some Christians do and most used to. And I only got a few pages into the Book of Mormon before I could see it was horseshit.

so I am surprised he hasn't read it, but reading it isn't a prerequisite to thinking it's nonsense if you're a rational atheist, since there are literally thousands of other holy books that are as, or more "fake" and ludicrous if you are so inclined- so which ones do you have to read to form an opinion about the veracity of the book and more pertinently - the way its adherents behave? All of them?
 
E

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
He is right. You don't need to read Mein Kampf to talk about the rise and impacts of Nazi ideology. It's a propaganda piece among others. Even if the whole ideology was originally based on that book you still wouldn't need to read it. A book on its own means nothing, but what people do out of inspiration or in honor of said book means something.
 
J

jtb

Banned
wrowa said:
Actually, I don't think his Mein Kampf comparison was that far off.

Wait, don't kill me just yet.

Of course, the comparison between nazism and Islamism is quite insulting and wrong. So, I'm not saying you can compare the themes of the books. But, and here's the point, Mein Kampf is a piece of propagandism. In the same vein, holy books - be it the Bible or the Koran - are also at the very least to a certain degree propagandism. They want to convert the readers after all. This is not saying that they are teaching something bad, but that they obviously are far from being objective works about their respective topics. It you want to judge something, a more distanced objective work is to be preferred as the base of your argument.

So I can kinda understand his point; even though he probably has chosen the very negative example on purpose to reflect his negative views of Islamism -- so, I guess I'm giving him more credit than he deserves.
Click to expand...

What? That's ridiculous. Mein Kampf, religious texts, etc.—these are TEXTS for fuck's sake. They're not going to coerce us into reading them or believing what they have to say. Surely if we're going to criticize Nazism, religious texts, etc., it makes far more sense to do so against the primary source. The objective point of view comes from the reader; you are objectively interpreting the text rather than relying on someone else's interpretation.

If they're pieces of propaganda and nothing more, then it'll show when their arguments and moral justification are incredibly flimsy.
 
B

BrokenEchelon

Banned
On one hand, reading spark notes on The Brothers Karamazov doesn't really do the book justice.

On the other hand...a religion isn't solely tied to its scripture. He has less authority on the matter for sure, and it's pretty silly of him not to read it when he seems to have devoted his life to bitching about religion. (Yes yes, he has done other things, I know.)
 
B

B For Bendetta

Member
hym said:
When those 'messed up Muslims' are the care takers of the fifth pillar of Islam themepark it becomes hard to deny that there is no connection with all the rest.
Click to expand...

Pretty much. Subscribing these outmoded relics of a savage time enables the fundamentalists whether you endorse them or not. It validates their bigotry and violence and legitimizes the source they use to justify it.
 
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