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Final Fantasy XIV director talks about subscription and free-to-play models in MMOs

A

akaoni

Banned
In an interview, FFXIV director Naoki Yoshida gives a lengthy response when questioned about how a subscription fee can be justified as so many games in the MMORPG genre go Free-to-Play.

To [make a large-scale MMORPG], you need a lot of money, and to get a lot of money to do that, you usually need investors to invest in your game. Because you’ve spent a lot of money on getting this game ready and borrowed a lot of money from these investors, when you release the game, the investors expect to see returns. If your game gets a lot of users and a lot of subscriptions right away, your investors will be happy and you can pay them. But what happens if you don’t hit that number right away? You have a bunch of staff members waiting to get paid. You have a bunch of investors waiting to get paid. You have a bunch of contents that needs to get made because you have to have updates, but you can’t do it because you don’t have enough money, because you didn’t hit that number you were aiming for. And so what do you have to do? One option to get instant money is free-to-play, or selling these items. To get that money so you can pay off your staff, pay off your investors, and start making new content, switching to free-to-play, selling items, and using that money is one way to do it.
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Because you have a steady income, you can plan ahead further. You can make sure you have staff members to create that new content. By creating new content, you’re making the players happy. If they know this game is going to keep creating new content, they’ll continue to pay their monthly subscription fees. So rather than going for the huge $100-million-a-month hit that you might get with the free-to-play model, having that steady income allows us to provide a better product to the players.
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That’s why you see a lot of companies that chose the subscription model, that wanted to do what we were doing, but were forced to free-to-play. They didn’t go to free-to-play by choice, because if that was the case, they would have gone free-to-play at the beginning. They’d develop it for free-to-play, not full subscription, instead of being forced to go free-to-play. We hear a lot of people saying, “Star Wars is free-to-play now, it’s great!” But then you ask them if they’re playing free-to-play Star Wars and they say, “No, not really playing it.” Everyone talks about how great it is that it went free-to-play, but then you ask around and really, there aren’t that many people who are playing it since it’s gone free-to-play.
Click to expand...

You can read his full answer here; Venturebeat

It was part of a larger interview, the link to which is at the beginning.
 
A

Aeana

Member
We hear a lot of people saying, “Star Wars is free-to-play now, it’s great!” But then you ask them if they’re playing free
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It's true. SWTOR's free-to-play model sucks, and if you actually get into playing the game at all, you'll end up subscribing because you can do so little otherwise.
 
Q

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
Free to play is a scam in MMO's, people that don't get this yet well I'm sorry.

Because you have a steady income, you can plan ahead further. You can make sure you have staff members to create that new content. By creating new content, you’re making the players happy. If they know this game is going to keep creating new content, they’ll continue to pay their monthly subscription fees. So rather than going for the huge $100-million-a-month hit that you might get with the free-to-play model, having that steady income allows us to provide a better product to the players.
Click to expand...

Exactly.
 
A

akaoni

Banned
I fear I may have unintentionally suggested the game might have a free-to-play model with the title when I think about it....
 
K

kayos90

Tragic victim of fan death
Aeana said:
It's true. SWTOR's free-to-play model sucks, and if you actually get into playing the game at all, you'll end up subscribing because you can do so little otherwise.
Click to expand...

Not all free-to-play models suck. There are games out there who do free-to-play really well because they have designed the game to accomodate it or if they were forced to adopt it, they have methods to prevent core gameplay from being damaged. Bioware just didn't do it properly. I'd say TOR is the outlier when it comes to implementing F2P models.
 
Z

Zaptruder

Banned
How about Free 2 Play a bit?

Free customer = time limited to 30 hours a month.

If you buy stuff from the cash shop, then you get time extensions to play time for the month - once you hit 60 hours (or something like that), then you're bumped up into subscription status for the remainder of the month.

Alternatively, if you subscribe from the start, you get unlimited play time, cash shop discounts and other loyalty perks (i.e. perks that accrue the longer you've been subscribed).

Maybe a world travel system where you have to pay gil to travel normally - but subscription means that every month a new location is chosen as an annual pass (or some other arbitrary length of time) that becomes free to travel for all subscribing players.

The longer you stay on subscription, the more locations you can travel to freely.

Maybe 6 month bonuses, and holiday subsciption bonuses as a way of saying thanks!


At the end of the day, as long as the messaging is clear - We want you to subscribe, but we're letting people try the game to their hearts content, or get mates in that might not play as much, because increased player base helps to increase/improve the value of the game as well.
 
Q

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
kayos90 said:
Not all free-to-play models suck. There are games out there who do free-to-play really well because they have designed the game to accomodate it or if they were forced to adopt it, they have methods to prevent core gameplay from being damaged. Bioware just didn't do it properly. I'd say TOR is the outlier when it comes to implementing F2P models.
Click to expand...

What are some good Free to Play mmo's that don't scam you?
 
K

kayos90

Tragic victim of fan death
QisTopTier said:
What are some good Free to Play mmo's that don't scam you?
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Rift, Tera, Guild Wars 2 if you include buy it once. In fact GW2 is an excellent example considering they have great content updates every month and huge content updates every 2 months or so.

Also, just because you go F2P doesn't mean you suddenly earn less profits or can't support your game. Some people assume that this is the case. I don't think it's true. Also, people have to remember that TOR is a special case for a lot of reasons.
 
A

Aeana

Member
kayos90 said:
Rift, Tera, Guild Wars 2 if you include buy it once. In fact GW2 is an excellent example considering they have great content updates every month and huge content updates every 2 months or so.
Click to expand...

Guild Wars 2 doesn't count because it was designed from the ground up to be free to play. Yoshida addresses this in the above interview! He's talking about games that have been converted from sub to free.
 
J

Jomjom

Banned
I can tell some people here have never actually played swtor. The F2P system is really good now. I have basically everything a subscription player has because the game allows you to buy unlocks with either real money or in game credits. Once you do that the only real disadvantage is lower xp than a paid player and a credit cap which is not really a big deal as long as you have multiple characters.

I have access to pvp, pve endgame, and 8 slots for characters, 1 of each class.
 
Q

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
kayos90 said:
Rift, Tera, Guild Wars 2 if you include buy it once. In fact GW2 is an excellent example considering they have great content updates every month and huge content updates every 2 months or so.
Click to expand...
Guild Wars 2 isn't free, it's a horrible example as well, that game is not on par on a MMO level and Tera screws you bad at end game. I can't comment on rift as I havent touched it since a month after launch.
 
R

ReaperXL7

Member
My experience with the Beta was pretty positive so far, so I could see this being the first MMO I have payed to play in a long time. Only other game that could compete for me interest honestly is the elder scrolls online because I feel it had a strong E3 showing. Really curious about both at the moment.

I do somewhat wonder if all of these MMOs coming to PS4 could cause problems with player bases though, we are getting so many MMO announcements that I fear many wont reach a good userbase for awhile.

As far as the P2P, or F2P stuff goes I will pay for the sub if the game is worthy of my money.
 
K

kayos90

Tragic victim of fan death
Aeana said:
Guild Wars 2 doesn't count because it was designed from the ground up to be free to play. Yoshida addresses this in the above interview! He's talking about games that have been converted from sub to free.
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I know. I was just stating games that were free to play since he asked. He didn't specifically ask P2P to F2P. Having said that, yes GW2 is designed to be entirely F2P. I personally think FFXIV will go F2P after a year or so. If it doesn't then good for it. However, if they do go F2P and they don't think about how they're going to implement F2P... we might have another Bioware situation on our hands.

QisTopTier said:
Guild Wars 2 isn't free, it's a horrible example as well, that game is not on par on a MMO level and Tera screws you bad at end game. I can't comment on rift as I havent touched it since a month after launch.
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I don't understand about GW2 not being "on par on a MMO level". Care to elaborate?
 
J

Jira

Member
kayos90 said:
Not all free-to-play models suck. There are games out there who do free-to-play really well because they have designed the game to accomodate it or if they were forced to adopt it, they have methods to prevent core gameplay from being damaged. Bioware just didn't do it properly. I'd say TOR is the outlier when it comes to implementing F2P models.
Click to expand...

Yep, SWTOR is good example of F2P done wrong while something like Rift is a good example of F2P done correctly for the most part. The most important thing for SE is that they make a good base game. All the content updates in the world won't matter if people don't like your base game from a mechanical standpoint.
 
Q

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
kayos90 said:
I don't understand about GW2 not being "on par on a MMO level". Care to elaborate?
Click to expand...

It's one of the most shallow MMO's on the market and that's the design intent. If you enjoy it that's fine. But yeah, it's a horrible recommendation for most people that like the genre imo. It doesn't mean much really but every single one of my friends gave into the hype of it and dropped the game in a month and went back to what ever it was they played.

But it's not that unexpected when the game is focused on PvP before anything else. I don't think it's a bad game, I just don't think it should be listed as a good MMO.
 
Sakura

Sakura

Member
I've had my fill of F2P MMOs. They are always designed around how they can get you to fork over some more money via microtransactions, while subscription based MMOs are based around the idea of how they can keep making the game fun and worthwhile so the player wants to stay subscribed. If FFXIV went F2P I would lose all interest in it.
 
K

kayos90

Tragic victim of fan death
The philosophy of "if there's content, people will keep their subs" is most definitely correct. If there is a good chunk of content every month or a month and a half then I'd definitely keep my sub. The problem is, "does the content appeal to me" and "is the content good?" There are a lot of factors. I'm glad SE has the right idea in mind. However, these are just words. I'll wait and see how they execute this philosophy.
 
M

markot

Banned
Itll need to be f2p if it wants to make any significany amount of money back. Its their SWTOR, except moreso.
 
A

aliencowz7

Member
kayos90 said:
Yeah. I know. Hence I specified "buy it once." In all honesty I wish more MMOs would adopt the whole "buy it once and free to play" idea. Maybe that's just me.
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While I am generally pretty okay with B2P, GW2 adding a cash shop on top of a upfront cost was a pretty scummy move. Trying to get your player base to double dip while marketing your game as pay once, never again just rubs me the wrong way.

Yoshida so far is so in tune with everything I feel about the MMO genre and the kinds of things I like and or want in an MMO I play that it makes me really torn on FFXIV. On one hand I have been burned back to back on SE MMOs with FFXI and FFXIV 1.0 which left me pretty bitter and makes it hard for me to trust them post launch but on the other hand he is doing everything right since replacing Tanaka that it makes me want to reward him.

I just wish he could have been given FFXI or FFXIV from the the very start.
 
A

Ashodin

Member
QisTopTier said:
It's one of the most shallow MMO's on the market and that's the design intent. If you enjoy it that's fine. But yeah, it's a horrible recommendation for most people that like the genre imo. It doesn't mean much really but every single one of my friends gave into the hype of it and dropped the game in a month and went back to what ever it was they played.

But it's not that unexpected when the game is focused on PvP before anything else. I don't think it's a bad game, I just don't think it should be listed as a good MMO.
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lolwut

The PVP players in the game would like to have a word with you.
 
K

kayos90

Tragic victim of fan death
markot said:
Itll need to be f2p if it wants to make any significany amount of money back. Its their SWTOR, except moreso.
Click to expand...

SWTOR had some major problems that made a resub less enticing. I haven't played XIV yet but as long as SE doesn't fall into the same problems that Bioware made and has a compelling game that will keep players attracted, I don't see this as a problem. However, you are correct in that they need to make a significant amount of profit to recoup the cost of development.
 
A

Ashodin

Member
markot said:
Itll need to be f2p if it wants to make any significany amount of money back. Its their SWTOR, except moreso.
Click to expand...

This. FFXIV is clinging to the old model of subscription because their investors do not seem to understand how a F2P model can generate more money and interest than a sub model.

If you look at the history of MMOs up to now, you will find that a majority of MMO players will be highly likely to try an MMO based on several factors:

  • Based on a high quality IP
  • The closer to free to play, the higher the likelihood
  • Good word of mouth

Subs are increasingly a huge barrier to people, who want to see if a game is good or not.

Even harder for FFXIV will be the fact that the game is a subscription model AND you have to buy the game if you didn't previously.
 
Sakura

Sakura

Member
Ashodin said:
This. FFXIV is clinging to the old model of subscription because their investors do not seem to understand how a F2P model can generate more money and interest than a sub model.

If you look at the history of MMOs up to now, you will find that a majority of MMO players will be highly likely to try an MMO based on several factors:

  • Based on a high quality IP
  • The closer to free to play, the higher the likelihood
  • Good word of mouth

Subs are increasingly a huge barrier to people, who want to see if a game is good or not.

Even harder for FFXIV will be the fact that the game is a subscription model AND you have to buy the game if you didn't previously.
Click to expand...
FFXI is SE's most profitable Final Fantasy. And it's sub to play. Why would you expect them to change? And who is to say ARR won't be successful? I believe if a game is good, people will pay for it, even if you have to sub to play.
 
Z

ZenaxPure

Member
btgorman said:
Another mmo with a good f2p model is The Secret World.
Click to expand...

Secret World isn't free to play either, it's buy to play. Even the content updates aren't free, they cost money. It just doesn't have a monthly fee.

People need to understand no sub doesn't automatically make something free to play.
 
Reallink

Reallink

Member
synce said:
Free to play is just some marketer's clever way of saying demo isn't it?
Click to expand...

It's a clever way of getting players to pay far more than the ~$150/yr they would under a subscription model while giving them less content and an overall shitty and unbalanced experience.
 
K

kayos90

Tragic victim of fan death
Reallink said:
It's a clever way of getting players to pay far more than the ~$150/yr they would under a subscription model while giving them less content and an overall shitty and unbalanced experience.
Click to expand...

Yup. Look at League of Legends and the like. =D
 
E

eorl

Banned
Outside of WoW, what other subscription-based MMOs are doing well? I highly doubt free-to-play is "bad", considering Lord of the Rings Online made something like $2 million in the first few weeks of switching.

Free-to-play still has a long way to go, but with titles like Neverwinter and now RIFT offering substantial amounts of content with little to no real micro-transactions impacting the game, it doesn't seem to be doing too badly.

On the micro-transaction footing, I've never actually felt like I've been forced to spend money to gain an "advantage". Heck the three MMOs that I currently dabble in (RIFT, Guild Wars 2 and Neverwinter) have made me feel like I'll never have to. Though that isn't saying I haven't purchased anything using real money, when in-fact I have multiple times, but the only things that I can buy in those stores are cosmetic items.

I think with a free-to-play title like Star Wars: The Old Republic, you are in for trouble. When you design a game to be subscription-based and then try to hammer in a free-to-play model between that, it just won't work. Considering some of the stuff they have to offer, it is downright terrible.

Will Final Fantas XIV: ARR do well? Who knows. Might contain a niche but I doubt they'll be gaining that much of a profit for what they've spent re-booting it. How many PS2 players are still logging in and paying for FF11?
QisTopTier said:
Free to play is a scam in MMO's, people that don't get this yet well I'm sorry.
Click to expand...
This comment is stupid. Sure there are free-to-play titles that survive heavily on micro-transactions, but no one is really holding a gun against your head saying "buy these or else". You have that many options these days in the MMO field that anything can satisfy you and you don't have to put up with all the bull.
 
N

N.A

Banned
Yoshi once again proving he's the best person currently at SE.

ARR does not need huge subscriber numbers to survive. Similar numbers to FFXI would be fine. The fact it has console versions will also really help it, especially in Japan.

And with the amazing things they already have announced as coming in updates (Gold Saucer, Player Housing, PvP, Chocobo Breeding) i'm sure they'll have no trouble maintaining a healthy base.
 
M

markot

Banned
Reallink said:
It's a clever way of getting players to pay far more than the ~$150/yr they would under a subscription model while giving them less content and an overall shitty and unbalanced experience.
Click to expand...
Most f2p games I've played have had better support and more content added than p2p games I've paid for....

Granted that was wow, and blizzard is pretty awful at making stuff in a timely fashion.
 
R

Ravidrath

Member
markot said:
Itll need to be f2p if it wants to make any significany amount of money back. Its their SWTOR, except moreso.
Click to expand...

I guarantee that both versions of FFXIV combined did not come close to costing the $300M that SWTOR is expected to have cost to make.
 
R

RyoonZ

Banned
So, will YoshiP be stuck with FFXIV for the next decade or will he get to direct another game? I'm getting PS4 version.
 
M

markot

Banned
N.A said:
Yoshi once again proving he's the best person currently at SE.

ARR does not need huge subscriber numbers to survive. Similar numbers to FFXI would be fine. The fact it has console versions will also really help it, especially in Japan.

And with the amazing things they already have announced as coming in updates (Gold Saucer, Player Housing, PvP, Chocobo Breeding) i'm sure they'll have no trouble maintaining a healthy base.
Click to expand...
They made the game twice.... They need more then ff11 numbers if they want to make their money back this century.
 
E

Eusis

Member
Aeana said:
Guild Wars 2 doesn't count because it was designed from the ground up to be free to play. Yoshida addresses this in the above interview! He's talking about games that have been converted from sub to free.
Click to expand...
Guild Wars 2 also requires the purchase of the base client and possibly future add-ons, I imagine if a lot of these that went free to play STILL mandated that (and kept the cost relatively high) they'd offer more for your money.
 
T

thetrin

Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
Sakura said:
FFXI is SE's most profitable Final Fantasy. And it's sub to play. Why would you expect them to change? And who is to say ARR won't be successful? I believe if a game is good, people will pay for it, even if you have to sub to play.
Click to expand...

FFXI came out in a different time and a different economy, and what keeps FFXI subs going today is the connection to a community, friends, and a world that players have been cultivating for years now.

I like FFXIV a lot, but subs won't save it. Not in the current landscape.
 
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