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John Carmack interview in new GI (Thoughts on PS3 & X360)

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S

Sean

Banned
There's a multiple page interview in the new Game Informer (Crackdown for Xbox360 from the GTA creator is the cover story). They talk about Doom for Mobile, the Doom movie, and more. Here's an excerpt of the interesting stuff...

We'd heard that one of the very first PS3 dev kits showed up at your door. Any truth to that?
Yes, we have PS3 dev kits here.

How are those working out?
The Microsoft dev kits for the Xbox 360 are much nicer. I'll say that. We do intend that on our next project, we are intentionally targeting all three platforms - PC, PS3, and Xbox 360. I've actually just this last week started moving my development focus from the PC to the Xbox 360. Microsoft has done a spectacular job of making that an easy move. You get to use the same tools, the same environment, the debugging is great, and the performance analysis tools are great.

In regards to the PS3 dev kit, has it been a big challenge from a technological standpoint?
It's actually not going to be that bad in the larger scheme of things. If you look at the previous generation, the PS2 was not a good platform for developers to work on. From a hardware standpoint, the PS3 is a lot nicer, because it essentially has a PC graphics accelerator in it and it has simple memory. I think Microsoft made a better choice with the processor technology than Sony did. But, to a first approximation, they are both plenty capable systems. I was much more down on the PS2 than I am on the PS3. I definitely did prefer the Xbox over the PS2 by a wide margin. I think I prefer the 360 over the PS3 by a less wide margin.

What are your thoughts about the potential of these two systems in the overall market?
I don't like how the hype is always so ridiculous at new console launches. Because the truth is, by the time any of these things ship, you will be able to buy a higher end PC. It won't have better cost performance - the value won't be as good, but for the people that try to make it sound like the PS3 is going to be an order of magnitude better than anything else, it's just not true.

On the future of Doom:
"It's likely there will be a Doom 4, but id probably won't make it." [said it would be like how Raven is doing Quake 4]
 
P

Ponn

Banned
monchi-kun said:
higher end PC is about $3000, maybe 4k....fuk u john!!!!
Click to expand...

Doesn't he have a ferrari or something? Probably gets a new Alienware PC every other month.

Ruzbeh said:
No Revolution? :(
Click to expand...

Yea, EVERY thread doesn't have to be Revolution. Attention whore.
 
C

Culex

Banned
monchi-kun said:
higher end PC is about $3000, maybe 4k....fuk u john!!!!
Click to expand...

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but you can buy a beautiful, top-of-the-line dual core AMD Shuttle PC for under 2500 dollars.

...and that's paying the extra $'s for the company to do it for you.
 
D

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
So, he's not a fan of PS3 simply because it isn't PC-like? Says nothing of the power, simply the ease of development for PC developers.

He really doesn't like Cell...
 
G

Gattsu25

Banned
Kroole said:
He said that PC GPUs will be better but more costly. What's the prob?

It's not like he's BSing
Click to expand...
They read up until they disagree with something, then either their brain farts out or they just stop reading right there.
 
T

TTP

Have a fun! Enjoy!
Carmack said:
the truth is, by the time any of these things ship, you will be able to buy a higher end PC whose games will look ass compared to 360 and PS3 ones due to all those lazy PC programmers out there.
Click to expand...

Edited
 
E

Elios83

Member
Carmack on PS3:

GPU: nVidia PC graphics accelerator..... Yeah!!
Memory: Like on PC.......Double yeah!!
CPU: Drastically different from PC.......... BAD BAD PS3!!!

:lol
 
D

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Because the truth is, by the time any of these things ship, you will be able to buy a higher end PC.
Click to expand...
Missed that one...

Kind of a foolish thing to say. Each new console generation has represented a leap over anything currently available on the market and PC games have to play catch-up. It's not about the hardware itself...it's about the software that uses it. Even if these machines are outpaced by a PC, that doesn't mean the games you can buy on that PC will look anywhere near as good as those console titles.
 
R

Ruzbeh

Banned
Ponn01 said:
Yea, EVERY thread doesn't have to be Revolution. Attention whore.
Click to expand...
What. :lol The Revolution happens to be a next-gen console, thanks. If you talk about X360 and PS3 and talk how they are different or whatever, it could be, and this, is entirely my opinion, of course Mr Ponn01! It could be that they could talk about, hmmm, maybe Revolution?
 
F

Flo_Evans

Member
I would like to hear John's reaction to the MGS4 trailer.

Sure PCs will be more powerfull, but will we actually get any games on the PC that tap any of this power?

I would also like to see sales data for high end graphics cards, how many people actually have a PC right now that is more powerfull than an xbox?

My current PC stomps all over current gen consoles... yet the only benifit I get is high res textures and AA. Leon in RE4 is made up of more polys than 10 characters in a PC FPS.

I love FPS on my PC, but its mostly for the mod community and KB/mouse. I realize that they need to make the game playable on a wide range of systems, but why brag that the PC is the most powerfull when you have to cripple all your games? I'm sure your PC will be more powerfull than next gen consoles, but for the majority of people that is simply not the case, and as a result the rest of us uber-nerds with $500 graphics cards suffer.

"oh look I'm runnning this game a 300fps with 200x AA, but all the characters still have block hands so joe dirt can run it on his windows 95 box! yay!"
 
P

PhatSaqs

Banned
open_mouth_ said:
Carmack: "Xbox 360 is better than PS3"

pretty much sums it up :D
Click to expand...
Yeah this thread could have been so much better had the creator followed the GAF rules to creating thread titles :p
 
G

Gattsu25

Banned
By a suprising twist of fate, TWO posters with the same PS3 avatar are trying to discredit Carmack by labeling him as lazy

the WORLD SHOCKER!!!!
 
D

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Wakune said:
By a suprising twist of fate, TWO posters with the same PS3 avatar are trying to discredit Carmack by labeling him as lazy

the WORLD SHOCKER!!!!
Click to expand...
Whoa whoa, he's certainly not lazy (though his attitude seems to convey that sometimes), it's just that he doesn't seem interested in any radical change or shift in technology.

He says nothing of performance when discussing Cell, but focuses only on the fact that it is different from anything on the PC.

I would like him to comment on actual performance, not simply ease of use.

His comment about buying a higher-end PC is also drunken and does not take actual software into account.
 
X

Xellotah

Member
monchi-kun said:
higher end PC is about $3000, maybe 4k....fuk u john!!!!
Click to expand...

Ahem

What are your thoughts about the potential of these two systems in the overall market?
I don't like how the hype is always so ridiculous at new console launches. Because the truth is, by the time any of these things ship, you will be able to buy a higher end PC. It won't have better cost performance - the value won't be as good, but for the people that try to make it sound like the PS3 is going to be an order of magnitude better than anything else, it's just not true.
Click to expand...

I think John agrees with you on the price.
 
J

jman2050

Member
Well, considering these magazines go into print quite a bit in advance, it's understandable that they don't ask anything about Revolution :)

As for the interview itself, he really is a PC fanboy, isn't he? ^_^
 
I

IJoel

Member
I am really interested in seeing Carmack's next-gen engine. Hopefully they'll show it soon, though I doubt that will be the case. Say what you will, but Carmack is still one of the most talented engine coders in the industry.
 
G

Guy LeDouche

Banned
It's not surprising to hear PC guys like Newell and Carmack are not so hot on PS3. strong PS2 developers will be the ones who stand out in the beginning, because they are already familiar with the EE + VU0/VU1 set-up (like Kojima). PC devs are going to have a harder time by default.
 
V

VictimOfGrief

Banned
Wakune said:
You already posted so yeah...might as well edit your post to something worthwhile
Click to expand...
Oh well.

Regardless. John does make some valid points. It is interesting that they're licensing their franchises to outside parties though, I would've thought ID would've done Doom 4. Oh well. I am forever dumb. :lol
 
R

Razoric

Banned
IJoel said:
I am really interested in seeing Carmack's next-gen engine. Hopefully they'll show it soon, though I doubt that will be the case. Say what you will, but Carmack is still one of the most talented engine coders in the industry.
Click to expand...

I really wasn't that impressed with the Doom 3 engine. Plastic and shiny with little to no physics to be had. :\

I dont think many other people where either. That engine didn't exactly 'take off' so to speak.
 
Forsete

Forsete

Gold Member
Guy LeDouche said:
It's not surprising to hear PC guys like Newell and Carmack are not so hot on PS3. strong PS2 developers will be the ones who stand out in the beginning, because they are already familiar with the EE + VU0/VU1 set-up (like Kojima). PC devs are going to have a harder time by default.
Click to expand...

Probably true. :)

Cant wait to see what Naughty Dog has cookin' (They managed to create one of the most impressive engines IMO).
 
V

VictimOfGrief

Banned
Razoric said:
I really wasn't that impressed with the Doom 3 engine. Plastic and shiny with little to no physics to be had. :\

I dont think many other people where either. That engine didn't exactly 'take off' so to speak.
Click to expand...
I think what the engine did RIGHT was create the atmosphere that was approriate for the "Doom" games. What it didn't do right is pretty much summed up in your post.

If you splashed a bit of UT2007/HL2/Doom3 you'd get a killer engine.
 
P

Ponn

Banned
Ruzbeh said:
What. :lol The Revolution happens to be a next-gen console, thanks. If you talk about X360 and PS3 and talk how they are different or whatever, it could be, and this, is entirely my opinion, of course Mr Ponn01! It could be that they could talk about, hmmm, maybe Revolution?
Click to expand...

This is a GI interview. If you stop and think for a minute this was very more then likely done BEFORE TGS when nothing was revealed about the Rev. yet. In this interview they are asking him questions about the Dev Kits he is working on and have received. Nintendo has stated they asked developers to work on Gamecube dev kits in the time being till they ship Rev kits and i'm pretty positive John Carmack is not high up on their list to receive a REV Dev Kit anyhow. So why on earth would John Carmack bring up the Revolution at this point in time when not even asked about in this interview?

Common Sense 101

The whole "What about Revolution?" and "Me too Me too" whining attitude is just getting annoying and very attention whoreish when at this point and time and a whole year away from the Revolution even supposedly hitting shelves why should they be disccussing it in game development context? We are a good couple months away from that, especially with third party developers, you are a nintendo fan and you of all people should know that.

And actually his comments have seemed the least offensive, even Mr. Jaffe's. He doesn't come out and say one is more powerful then the other he just says the hype of the PS3 being THAT much more powerful then the 360 is exaggerated. Which I tend to agree with. Maybe towards the end of development cycle you will see a significant difference if any but for the first some odd years here it will be negligible.
 
G

Gattsu25

Banned
PS3 avatar #1 (of FOUR now): That's just a polite way of saying that he is. The wording is different but the intended mean is just the same.

Carmack doesn't like PS3 because it isn't PC-like. Too lazy to adopt to change
CPU is drastically different from PC architecture and Carmack spazzes out. Same
Carmack likes the 360 more because it's more akin to PC development. Suprised...Honestly.
Carmack and other PC devs are bitching about new architecture. Wonder what the implication is...
 
D

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
I dunno, the Doom 3 engine was pretty incredible for 2004. It gave us a look at where graphics are going, but was obviously held back by the hardware of its day. It performed VERY well, though, and looked beautiful in motion. It just seems as if it, along with Source, were caught between generation changes and won't survive for long. Doom 3's engine hasn't taken off...but neither has Source.

I think Epic nailed it. The Warfare engine hit at a perfect time and UE3 is doing the same. It works out for both the PCs AND consoles...

PS3 avatar #1 (of FOUR now): That's just a polite way of saying that he is too lazy to adopt to change, in my eyes. The wording is different but the intended mean is just the same.

Carmack doesn't like PS3 because it isn't PC-like. Too lazy to adopt to change
CPU is drastically different from PC architecture and Carmack spazzes out. Same
Carmack likes the 360 more because it's more akin to PC development. Suprised...Honestly.
Carmack and other PC devs are bitching about new architecture. Wonder what the implication is...
Click to expand...
So, what are you saying, that we're making incorrect assumptions? That his comments have everything to do with performance and not similarity to the PC?

What does this have to do with the "PS3 avatar"? Those statements are logical assumptions based on statements he has made. You really think he is saying "Cell isn't powerful" rather than "Cell isn't like a PC CPU"? Sure seems that way to me...
 
U

urk

butthole fishhooking yes
Guy LeDouche said:
It's not surprising to hear PC guys like Newell and Carmack are not so hot on PS3. strong PS2 developers will be the ones who stand out in the beginning, because they are already familiar with the EE + VU0/VU1 set-up (like Kojima). PC devs are going to have a harder time by default.
Click to expand...

I think most developers want to cut rising costs by moving towards multiplatform models. If they can pump out games for the PC, 360, and PS3, then their consumer base is that much bigger and the potential to make money on games is that much better.

In that case, it makes sense to want all platforms to be somewhat similar in nature to ease the transition from platform to platform. It seems that Microsoft, most likely due to their own familiarity with the PC realm, decided to make the process as seamless as possible, while Sony continued their practice of proprietary coding.

I doubt it will make a massive difference in the games library at the end of the day, but dismissing Carmack and Newell as PC fanboys not only misses the point, but it comes off as downright ignorant. These guys know their shit. Their opinions are valid and the concerns that they address are justified.
 
R

Razoric

Banned
urk said:
In that case, it makes sense to want all platforms to be somewhat similar in nature to ease the transition from platform to platform. It seems that Microsoft, most likely due to their own familiarity with the PC realm, decided to make the process as seamless as possible, while Sony continued their practice of proprietary coding.
Click to expand...

Um MS made it as seemless as possible to go from MICROSOFT Windows to MICROSOFT Xbox 360. Yeah thanks MS for looking out for game devs and users alike. :lol
 
I

IJoel

Member
Razoric said:
I really wasn't that impressed with the Doom 3 engine. Plastic and shiny with little to no physics to be had. :\

I dont think many other people where either. That engine didn't exactly 'take off' so to speak.
Click to expand...

I remember PLENTY of people very impressed with Doom 3's engine when it came out. You have to remember that Doom 3 is a DX8 engine.

Doom 3 was released more than a year ago, and all these new engines coming out still have no games released for them. I do agree with the D3 engine aging very quickly, but to say that people wasn't impressed with it when it came out is not really true (yes, you mean yourself alone, I get that.)
 
D

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
IJoel said:
I remember PLENTY of people very impressed with Doom 3's engine when it came out. You have to remember that Doom 3 is a DX8 engine.

Doom 3 was released more than a year ago, and all these new engines coming out still have no games released for them. I do agree with the D3 engine aging very quickly, but to say that people wasn't impressed with it when it came out is not really true (yes, you mean yourself alone, I get that.)
Click to expand...
Actually, it was pretty much a DX7 engine with a few DX9 class features that could be enabled (heat/glass warping).
 
3

3rdman

Member
Wakune said:
PS3 avatar #1 (of FOUR now): That's just a polite way of saying that he is. The wording is different but the intended mean is just the same.

Carmack doesn't like PS3 because it isn't PC-like. Too lazy to adopt to change
CPU is drastically different from PC architecture and Carmack spazzes out. Same
Carmack likes the 360 more because it's more akin to PC development. Suprised...Honestly.
Carmack and other PC devs are bitching about new architecture. Wonder what the implication is...
Click to expand...

I think this automatic assumption that PC devs will immediately choose the 360 over the PS3 based soley on MS' traditional role in dev houses is really dismissing all the right things that MS has done.

Both the PS3 and 360 are as PC like as a MAC. Is there really any doubt or surprise that MS has the leg up on Sony when it comes to dev tools and programming?

Cell is awesome and the more I read about it, the more I'm intrigued by it, but programming for it is gonna be a bitch. I really like the layout and overall design of the 360 and it is pretty clear that MS' hardware was developed in conjuction with their programming tools.
 
U

urk

butthole fishhooking yes
Razoric said:
Um MS made it as seemless as possible to go from MICROSOFT Windows to MICROSOFT Xbox 360. Yeah thanks MS for looking out for game devs and users alike. :lol
Click to expand...

Sony could have very easily provided the same type of platform and it really doesn't have as much to do with the OS platform as it does the individual dev tools used.
 
K

Kung Fu Jedi

Member
Wow! What's the problem here? First, Carmack doesn't say that the PS3 is bad by any means, otherwise he wouldn't be developing for it. He simply said that he preferred the 360, which is understandable considering his experience in a similar development environment. The only thing he has to say against the PS3 is that he doesn't like the processor technology that Sony selected. Also not a big suprise, as it's totally new and unproven as of yet. Developers are going to have to learn alot to tap the power of the PS3, while the 360 is more fimiliar territory.

He's also spot on about buying a top end PC that will be more powerful, although I'm not sure that you'll be able to do so at the launch of either of these systems. We'll have to see. He did point out that the cost of the PC is a lot more, so I'm not sure why people are getting upset over that comment. This has pretty much been the case for most of the last generations of systems. I have a kick ass PC for gaming, and for certain games, it's great, but I also enjoy playing my console games on a much bigger screen.

It is certainly a given that Carmack is a PC fanboy. That's where he cut his teeth and developed some ground breaking technologies over the years. It is also a given that he is smarter than 99% of GAF, so let him have his opinions.

As for the Revolution, I'm not surprised he had nothing to say. When the interview took place, there wasn't much to talk about. Now, there is only a controller to talk about, and tech specs, which is what Carmack really cares about, have yet to be revealed.
 
R

Razoric

Banned
urk said:
Sony could have very easily provided the same type of platform and it really doesn't have as much to do with the OS platform as it does the individual dev tools used.
Click to expand...

Why would they want to make it easy to port to or from Windows? Why do they have to have the same platform as Win / Xbox / 360? Seems most devs are doing just fine on PS3 as it is. Unreal Engine 3, all the physics engines, etc seem to be working on Sonys dev environment pretty well.
 
D

DonasaurusRex

Online Ho Champ
dark10x said:
Missed that one...

Kind of a foolish thing to say. Each new console generation has represented a leap over anything currently available on the market and PC games have to play catch-up. It's not about the hardware itself...it's about the software that uses it. Even if these machines are outpaced by a PC, that doesn't mean the games you can buy on that PC will look anywhere near as good as those console titles.
Click to expand...

Yeah but now you're compairing console software quality to PC hardware power. Or do you mean a game ported to the PC from a console WONT look as good on the PC. In your post you said a PC game wont look as good as a console title so im assuming you mean there wont be PC games out AT THE TIME of a console launch that will look as good as console games.

And yeah consoles are a leap..i sure hope they are but the gap didnt last long for xbox now did it, if i remember correctly they released Q4 2k1? and ATI released the 9700 Q2 2k2 so basically 2 months, and that was a far superior graphics processor than the part in the xbox.
 
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