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[Ixarulean]

This thread is an example of disingenuous fans that should be at least warned if not banned temporarily. And at least the same 4 keep showing up and keep undermining 360 threads.

 

[Mihail]

Higher end PC for $300-400?! News to me!!

Show me where you get your news! I want in!

Why is everyone getting on his case? He didn't even say the PS3 was a bad platform. He just stated his preferences in the development process. He expressed everything level-headedly and without unreasonable bias. Have you guys noticed the level of insanity that you are achieving lately?

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

I will not!! It's my secret!!

 

[dorio]

None of the chatter matters. In fact, tech specs etc. usually has very little to do with who wins these console wars. The proof will be in the pudding. The games will show who has an easier development environment, who has the most flops, etc.

 

[TheInkyVoid]

Why is everyone getting on his case?

Getting on his case? Come on.

I've have worked at a many console development houses for well over a decade. I have worked on the majority of console platforms and home computers. I have met and worked with huge numbers of insanely talented engineers. People don't know their names. They don't get interviewed. And a good deal of what they do probably couldn't be grasped by non-console engineers as to why it is so amazing.

This has nothing to do with bias, or getting on someone's case. There are people with valuable insight into console hardware and development. John Carmack is way, way down on the list of those people.

 

[Musashi Wins!]

Show me where you get your news! I want in!

Why is everyone getting on his case? He didn't even say the PS3 was a bad platform. He just stated his preferences in the development process. He expressed everything level-headedly and without unreasonable bias. Have you guys noticed the level of insanity that you are achieving lately?

you apparently missed the memo about posting any sort of positive impressions about machines not called PS3.

 

[J2 Cool]

Come on guys, I want to argue PC vs. Consoles, not this redundant PS3 vs. X360

 

[sonycowboy]

you apparently missed the memo about posting any sort of positive impressions about machines not called PS3.

C'mon. That's impossible. The "PS3 - One console future" GAF dictum has been made ABSOLUTELY AND PERFECTLY clear. If people choose not to heed it, then they have no protection from the GAF hordes.

:lol

 

[Late Stage Marxist]

The damage control is strong in this thread. :lol

Is it really surprising that X360 is easier to develop for? Wasn't that the point of XNA from the beginning?

 

[Dr_Cogent]

I shudder to think of a one world console.

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

The damage control is strong in this thread. :lol

Is it really surprising that X360 is easier to develop for? Wasn't that the point of XNA from the beginning?

Meh, wasn't it sort of assumed from the start with all that complex Cell and all.

The only thing that really raises my eyebrows is Carmack's ideals when it comes to graphics which transends all systems PC or consoles in regards to next gen's use of physics.

 

[IJoel]

If he had said "BUY A PS3, XBOX 360 IS CRAP", as someone else did, he'd be getting cheers and applauses.

 

[dark10x]

If he had said "BUY A PS3, XBOX 360 IS CRAP", as someone else did, he'd be getting cheers and applauses.

Bullshit.

That's not the type of comment that JC would make, however...

 

[TheInkyVoid]

Meh, wasn't it sort of assumed from the start with all that complex Cell and all.

Cell is complex? Where did you get that idea from?

 

[Mihail]

Come on guys, I want to argue PC vs. Consoles, not this redundant PS3 vs. X360

I think Carmack's seeming lack of interest in who the hell develops Doom 4 pretty much settles that argument ;p

 

[TheInkyVoid]

If he had said "BUY A PS3, XBOX 360 IS CRAP", as someone else did, he'd be getting cheers and applauses.

Nope.

Same reaction to an idividual who has almost no relevant information to add to my judgment making process.

 

[IJoel]

Bullshit.

You'd see loads of complaints. That's not the type of comment that JC would make, however...

Hey, you should refer to Jaffe's thread and his comments.

 

[DonasaurusRex]

I'm comparing software to software. I'm saying that there will be nothing available on the PC that looks as good as the best games on these consoles for the first couple years.

how many years is a couple? are you sure your assumption isnt as foolish, you never know whats waiting in the wings .

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

Cell is complex? Where did you get that idea from?

It isn't?

 

[gofreak]

Wasn't that the point of XNA from the beginning?

It's not because of XNA Last I heard XNA was still mostly a vision.

Without XNA, MS's environment is still going to be "nicer" for most devs than PS3's. Most people are reared on PC dev, so to speak, and MS obviously rules the roost in that regard, so most are very familiar with their tools and environment. They also are just really really nice, and easy to get going with.

 

[Wax Free Vanilla]

So Xbox 360 has the better CPU (I think Microsoft made a better choice with the processor technology)

And...

The PS3 has the better GPU (From a hardware standpoint, the PS3 is a lot nicer, because it essentially has a PC graphics accelerator in it)

?

 

[sonycowboy]

I have a feeling this thread is going to get locked if you guys can't get out of the "that fanboy started it" series of posts. You could actually talk about the article as opposed to crying foul on each other.

 

[dark10x]

Hey, you should refer to Jaffe's thread and his comments.

Do you really have any idea how popular X360 already is around here? All "sides" have their fans. It's just that those that disagree with you tend to stick out a bit more making it seem as if that "side" is more popular.

how many years is a couple? are you sure your assumption isnt as foolish, you never know whats waiting in the wings

I'm basing it on every previous generation where my statement has held very true.

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

So Xbox 360 has the better CPU (I think Microsoft made a better choice with the processor technology)

And...

The PS3 has the better GPU (From a hardware standpoint, the PS3 is a lot nicer, because it essentially has a PC graphics accelerator in it)

?

It's being argue that PS3 has both and it does have support behind it but Cell is newer and much different to work with than.

 

[IJoel]

Do you really have any idea how popular X360 already is around here? All "sides" have their fans. It's just that those that disagree with you tend to stick out a bit more making it seem as if that "side" is more popular.

Do you have any idea how ridiculous is the big deal that people are making out of Carmack's comments?

Did you read Jaffe's comments? He said what I posted and I didn't see anyone rip on him. Now, I don't care about what he says unless it's game related, because he obviously has an allegiance to Sony and it's fine. I usually stay out of these threads because people just go overboard with their preferences, but step back and take a look at what Carmack said, his perspective, and how ridiculous it is that people are bitching over it.

 

[IJoel]

So Xbox 360 has the better CPU (I think Microsoft made a better choice with the processor technology)

And...

The PS3 has the better GPU (From a hardware standpoint, the PS3 is a lot nicer, because it essentially has a PC graphics accelerator in it)

?

I'd say it's, arguably, the other way around.

 

[TheInkyVoid]

It's not because of XNA Last I heard XNA was still mostly a vision.

Without XNA, MS's environment is still going to be "nicer" for most devs than PS3's.

What does what someone who does pc development consider 'nicer' have to do with console development? I don't see any demand in the console buying public for pc developers to bring their games to consoles.

Most people are reared on PC dev, so to speak, and MS obviously rules the roost in that regard, so most are very familiar with their tools and environment. They also are just really really nice, and easy to get going with.

And even more people have no development experience at. But that doesn't make their opinions relevant?

 

[WHOAguitarninja]

I dunno, the Doom 3 engine was pretty incredible for 2004. It gave us a look at where graphics are going, but was obviously held back by the hardware of its day. It performed VERY well, though, and looked beautiful in motion.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>THIS!!!!!!!!!!!! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Is why Carmack is so great. It's not that his engines are years and years ahead of the industry, it's that they pullo ut such great performance for what they do include. Carmack for some unknown reason is able to pull out performance FAR better than people expect time and time again given the features present in his engines. THAT is what makes Carmack so damn good. That and the features he does choose to support tend to be harbinger's of the direction graphics will be taking in their "next leap".

Carmacks ability to pull SICK performance out of his engines is why I'm so excited to see him start actually working on consoles, rather than developing it for pc and then getting someone else to port it. I REALLY want to see what he can make these machines do. My guess: His next game will be one of the best looking games to come out next generation.

 

[WHOAguitarninja]

I'd say it's, arguably, the other way around.

I think he's speaking more in terms of ease of development. I don't think he's outright said which he feels is more powerful, and how much more powerful it is. Probably wants to avoid that, and I think it's wise of him to do so.

 

[gofreak]

So Xbox 360 has the better CPU (I think Microsoft made a better choice with the processor technology)

If you saw his keynote, you'll see why he said this, and it doesn't relate to being better in terms of "power".

He also didn't imply PS3 had a better/more powerful GPU either.

 

[Dr_Cogent]

I think you guys read WAY too much shit into this stuff.

It wreaks of fanboyism. Carmack is no fanboy, and he is no idiot.

Quit speculating on what he said. He's a fantastic dev who's opinion should be respected.

 

[Doom_Bringer]

Cramack hate multi core CPU's I remember him bitching about them years ago, no wonder he doesn't like PS3. I just hope PS3 gets id's next game.

 

[Dr_Cogent]

Cramack hate multi core CPU's I remember him bitching about them years ago, no wonder he doesn't like PS3. I just hope PS3 gets id's next game.

Dude, Xbox 360 has multicore CPUs too.

That pretty much invalidates that theory.

 

[Doom_Bringer]

Dude, Xbox 360 has multicore CPUs too.

That pretty much invalidates that theory.

But it's much more simpler compared to Cell. Cell must be giving him headache.

 

[Mrbob]

Cramack hate multi core CPU's I remember him bitching about them years ago, no wonder he doesn't like PS3. I just hope PS3 gets id's next game.

If you would have read the first post you would realize Id's next game is for PC, Xbox 360, and PS3.

 

[SantaC]

Quit speculating on what he said. He's a fantastic dev who's opinion should be respected.

If you can't deal with speculation on this forum, well...what are you doing here.

 

[Doom_Bringer]

If you would have read the first post you would realize Id's next game is for PC, Xbox 360, and PS3.

That's great, I loved Doom 3

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

But it's much more simpler than the X360 CPU. Cell must be giving him a headache.

Yeah, I would imagine them being 3 PPC cores would still be a hell of a lot more familiar than 1 PPC core and 7 newer SPU processors.

 

[gofreak]

Dude, Xbox 360 has multicore CPUs too.

That pretty much invalidates that theory.

True, but it's closer to the model he HAS to put up with on the PC side. PS3 is over twice the number of units to juggle.

I mean, I doubt X360's CPU is his absolute ideal either (and he complained about it also, just not to the same degree as PS3). I doubt even current multicore PC CPUs are his ideal. I get the feeling he would have been much happier if single-core systems just kept getting faster and faster (as probably a lot of people would be!).

Anyway, this is all familiar territory Round and round we go..I guess we can always go back to the "original" carmack/quakecon thread if we want to rediscuss all this

 

[sonycowboy]

But it's much more simpler compared to Cell. Cell must be giving him headache.

Simpler to program for, not simpler in design, necessarily.

The CELL is going to be a beast for folks. There's going to be a good bit of Microcoding and a hell of alot of design involved to work with the SPE's caches and main memory to get it to work efficiently. But, if the task breaks out the right way, then it will fly and won't be matched by any other processors out there.

But, devs are going to have to work for it.

 

[TheInkyVoid]

It isn't?

If you show this diagram:

http://www.research.scea.com/research/html/CellGDC05/07.html

to any console developer who had never heard of Cell before, they would grasp why it was designed like it is and what their engine's structure would look like in a few minutes.

Cell and the problem(s) it is targeted at and solves are nothing new. The implementation is. But where it is coming from is something that anyone with any experience in console engineering is forefront in their mind.

Five years ago when the PS2 was released to developers if you had said where do you want to be in five years they would have drawn a diagram like the one I linked to above.

 

[Hitler Stole My Potato]

This thread is a fine example of what's wrong with this forum anymore. I've read Carmack's interview a couple times trying to decipher what the hell got several of you all worked up and I just don't fucking get it. Does everyone have to lambast the 360 to get cred around here?

GAF is quickly reaching Gamefaqs levels of stupidity.

 

[sonycowboy]

If you show this diagram:

http://www.research.scea.com/research/html/CellGDC05/07.html

to any console developer who had never heard of Cell before, they would grasp why it was designed like it is and what their engine's structure would look like in a few minutes.

Cell and the problem(s) it is targeted at and solves are nothing new. The implementation is. But where it is coming from is something that anyone with any experience in console engineering is forefront in their mind.

Five years ago when the PS2 was released to developers if you had said where do you want to be in five years they would have drawn a diagram like the one I linked to above.

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

I'm sorry, but that's just so wrong it's unbelievable. Even the most optimistic of folks on the CELL recognize that they're going to have to rethink how they've been coding and really look long and hard at the design to make sure they're using the CELL effectively.

 

[slidewinder]

TheInkyVoid, what do you do in the console industry?

 

[TheInkyVoid]

Talking about the number of cores in the Broadband Engine and 360 CPU is not a useful topic.

 

[Speevy]

This thread is a fine example of what's wrong with this forum anymore. I've read Carmack's interview a couple times trying to decipher what the hell got several of you all worked up and I just don't fucking get it. Does everyone have to lambast the 360 to get cred around here?

GAF is quickly reaching Gamefaqs levels of stupidity.

360 is the new Nintendo.

Nintendo is the new Dreamcast.

 

[TheInkyVoid]

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

I'm sorry, but that's just so wrong it's unbelievable. Even the most optimistic of folks on the CELL recognize that they're going to have to rethink how they've been coding and really look long and hard at the design to make sure they're using the CELL effectively.

Funny, I guess I didn't have those conversations with other console engineers five years ago...

And yes, Cell will be the first chip ever where engineers have to look long and hard to make sure they are using the hardware effectively...

 

[TheInkyVoid]

TheInkyVoid, what do you do in the console industry?

Engineer.

 

[Mooreberg]

And yes, Cell will be the first chip ever where engineers have to look long and hard to make sure they are using the hardware effectively...

This wasn't the case already with Saturn and PS2? Developers that worked on those platforms are going to have an advantage going into this gen, mostly because they've already had to look at how they can use hardware effectively on those platforms.

 

[Dr_Cogent]

If you can't deal with speculation on this forum, well...what are you doing here.

I'm looking at your avatar. I'm obsessed with it.