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Info: Low Latency is important but don't forget 4:4:4 Chroma! (HDTV gaming)

M

Man

Member
For other strugglers like myself whom are lttp concerning 4:4:4 image reproduction:

Low latency monitors, low latency controllers...
It's pretty well established amongst hardcore how low latency is important when choosing our HDTVs (the time it takes for an image signal that has reached your TV to be converted to glorious photons). Most TV's come with Gaming modes that cut out all the nonsense image-processing that adds lag to our gameplay experience. 2013 TV's (Sony Bravias taking a clear lead) have been great at pushing for very low latency.

Can't wait to update to a PS4 or Xbone for a refined visual experience? Especially looking forward to improved AA? Then you should pay attention to what is known as '4:4:4 Chroma'. Most PC Monitors (all?) support this creating a crisp image but most TV's do not! You might be surprised how crisp the graphics your old X360 or PS3 are actually producing only to be neutered by your HDTV! Only now in the last couple of years have this started to pick up support amongst TV manufacturers and I'm telling you it makes a BIG difference! Playing Uncharted 3 on a non-4:4:4 HDTV and it gets a lot of artifacts but on a HDTV that supports 4:4:4 it gets plenty sharper! A lot of that aliasing was actually artificial due to your TV compressing the image the console feeds it.
Like low-latency, 4:4:4 image reproduction is usually part of a TV's 'Game', 'Graphics' or 'PC' mode. Note that some TV's have it on their 'PC' mode but not their 'Game' mode for whatever reason. Just switch between the two and check if there's a difference.

Here's Wikipedia's explanation:
Chroma subsampling is the practice of encoding images by implementing less resolution for chroma information than for luma information, taking advantage of the human visual system's lower acuity for color differences than for luminance.[1]
It is used in many video encoding schemes — both analog and digital — and also in JPEG encoding.
Click to expand...
Because of storage and transmission limitations, there is always a desire to reduce (or compress) the signal. Since the human visual system is much more sensitive to variations in brightness than color, a video system can be optimized by devoting more bandwidth to the luma component (usually denoted Y'), than to the color difference components Cb and Cr. In compressed images, for example, the 4:2:2 Y'CbCr scheme requires two-thirds the bandwidth of (4:4:4) R'G'B'. This reduction results in almost no visual difference as perceived by the viewer for photographs, although images produced digitally containing harsh lines and saturated colors will have significant artifacts.
Click to expand...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroma_subsampling

Examples:
4:2:0
yuv420amq5v.png

4:4:4
rgbk3olr.png
Click to expand...
4915d1194262630-4-2-2-versus-4-2-0-chroma_examples-keyed.png
Click to expand...

tltr: Buying a new HDTV anytime soon? Make sure it has support for 4:4:4 image reproduction in addition to low-latency image output.
 
W

Wowbagger

Member
Thanks for the advice. Saved me the trouble to look up what this chroma stuff is all about. Been eyeing Sony's KDL42W653 and this seems like another good reason to get that.
 
coughlanio

coughlanio

Member
Just did a bit of reading up on my set (LG 42LM620T).

Apparently it supports Chroma 4:4:4 in PC mode, that's a good thing right?

Also, just saw it has an input lag of 31ms, that's pretty good isn't it?

How would I go about calibrating my TV?
 
F

fijim

Banned
RavenholmDX said:
Just did a bit of reading up on my set (LG 42LM620T).

Apparently it supports Chroma 4:4:4 in PC mode, that's a good thing right?

Also, just saw it has an input lag of 31ms, that's pretty good isn't it?

How would I go about calibrating my TV?
Click to expand...

Yeah 31ms is pretty good. Think of it this way, in a 30fps game each frame is 33.33ms long. That means you have less than one frame of input lag on 30fps games, and just under 2 frames of input lag on a 60fps game. That is pretty good. Less than a frame of input lag won't be noticeable.
 
coughlanio

coughlanio

Member
fijim said:
Yeah 31ms is pretty good. Think of it this way, in a 30fps game each frame is 33.33ms long. That means you have less than one frame of input lag on 30fps games, and just under 2 frames of input lag on a 60fps game. That is pretty good. Less than a frame of input lag won't be noticeable.
Click to expand...

So theoretically 60FPS could have negatives for console gamers who are running on cheaper, high-latency sets?
 
M

Mudkips

Banned
Shadow Hog said:
This is the difference between "Full" and "Limited" on the PS3's menu, right?
Click to expand...

No. That refers to the range. If you choose limited the PS3 outputs an image that ranges from 16 to 240 (not sure about the exact numbers) instead of 0 to 255 for luma (brightness).

TVs typically are set to expect such a range, so it'll look fine.
If you set it to full, the PS3 will output a range from 0 to 255. If your TV is expecting a limited range it will then crush the details in very dark and very bright scenes. Anything in the signal below 16 will be full black, anything above 240 will be full white.

If you set it to full and your TV is expecting a full range signal, you get a superior picture.

If you set it to limited and your TV is expecting a full range signal, you get an image where blacks are grey and whites aren't as bright.
 
Wishmaster92

Wishmaster92

Member
I agree with this. 4:4:4 chroma is important, it even provides a small bump in pq when compared to 4:2:2 (computer graphics of course).
 
S

slapnuts

Junior Member
RavenholmDX said:
Just did a bit of reading up on my set (LG 42LM620T).

Apparently it supports Chroma 4:4:4 in PC mode, that's a good thing right?

Also, just saw it has an input lag of 31ms, that's pretty good isn't it?

How would I go about calibrating my TV?
Click to expand...

Yes..for HDTV's..anything under 35ms is fine....even up to 40ms..but going over 40ms is bad.
 
C

Calmine

Member
I used to own a LG 42LD450 which I knew had 4:4:4 under PC mode.

I've since changed to a Samsung UE42F5000 - Does anyone know what 4:4:4 that would be under?

It's a got Movie but no Game option under Picture modes.
 
C

Commanche Raisin Toast

Member
There's a list of HDTVs with measured lag, and I think the lowest (best) they had (they obviously haven't measured every TV ever) was a poorly reviewed Sony set @ 40-ish ms? I believe it's CNET.

Either way, I'm not going to upgrade from my current set to a new one unless the lag is drastically improved and it supports the 4:4:4 and fullrgb.

CNET said that now that they are including input lag in their reviews from here on out, hopefully it will persuade set manufactures to improve that aspect. Not sure how one site could influence that much though.
 
A

andrerobot

Member
Calmine said:
I used to own a LG 42LD450 which I knew had 4:4:4 under PC mode.

I've since changed to a Samsung UE42F5000 - Does anyone know what 4:4:4 that would be under?

It's a got Movie but no Game option under Picture modes.
Click to expand...

In my 2012 Sammy LED you have to label your HDMI input as "PC". It also disables overscan, which is as important as 4:4:4.
 
X

xiong644

Neo Member
I've been eyeing the Sony 42KDL W653, (best input lag for hdtv currently and also full 4:4:4 chroma support) but for some reason its not available in the U.S yet. Anyone know where i can get one for the states.
 
Acheteedo

Acheteedo

Member
Man said:
Uncharted 3 on a non-4:4:4 HDTV and it gets a lot of artifacts but on a HDTV that supports 4:4:4 it gets plenty sharper! A lot of that aliasing was actually artificial due to your TV compressing the image the console feeds it.
Click to expand...

Hmm, I'm not sure, never heard this before, wouldn't this be more widely known if it had a serious impact on aliasing?
 
M

Man

Member
Acheteedo said:
Hmm, I'm not sure, never heard this before, wouldn't this be more widely known if it had a serious impact on aliasing?
Click to expand...
I think people (hardcore gamers in general) are just on the verge of waking up to this (much thanks to TV reviewers having started taking real-time graphics into consideration). I am highly impressed of the difference it makes. Here's one review where they are on the money:

Conclusion
The Sony KDL47W805 doesn’t quite scale the heights of the top-end W9, but is a great example of a TV that makes the best of IPS LCD/ passive 3D technology. It delivers quite accurate pictures after calibration, and handles HD, SD and 3D content with aplomb. Native black level is not as deep as VA-based LED LCD or plasma TVs, but this can be partially compensated by engaging [Adv. Contrast Enhancer] “Low“.
For us, if there’s one overwhelming reason to buy the Sony W8, it must be for its unrivalled suitability for video gaming. With [Game Mode] enabled, our KDL47W805A sample not only registered the lowest input lag we have on record, but also was capable of 4:4:4 chroma reproduction. And unlike plasmas, there’s absolutely no risk of image retention or permanent screenburn. Sony has been on a roll with brilliant gaming displays from its 2013 Bravia TV range, and this will surely go down a treat with all gamers including future owners of the Japanese manufacturer’s next-generation PlayStation 4 (PS4) console.
Click to expand...
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/sony-kdl47w805a-201307043162.htm
 
G

Guymelef

Member
andrerobot said:
In my 2012 Sammy LED you have to label your HDMI input as "PC". It also disables overscan, which is as important as 4:4:4.
Click to expand...

What brand is Sammy?
In 2012 LG models (i have lm620s) you don't need label the hdmi as PC for eliminate the overscan, you can choose "just scan" in ratio menu.
 
C

Calmine

Member
andrerobot said:
In my 2012 Sammy LED you have to label your HDMI input as "PC". It also disables overscan, which is as important as 4:4:4.
Click to expand...

Ahh I didn't know this. Although when I think about LG's have the similar option. Haha just realised friend to do this to his LG to reduce response time. Thanks.
 
K

Kvik

Member
It is also a good idea to make sure the display settings of your PS3 is also set to 4:4:4 chroma.
 
B

BruiserBear

Banned
Unfortunately some TVs actually add a little bit of input lag when displaying in 4:4:4.

I can't name the models, but I've seen HDTVtest.UK reviews mention it.
 
Insane Metal

Insane Metal

Member
Man said:
I think people (hardcore gamers in general) are just on the verge of waking up to this (much thanks to TV reviewers having started taking real-time graphics into consideration). I am highly impressed of the difference it makes. Here's one review where they are on the money:


http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/sony-kdl47w805a-201307043162.htm
Click to expand...

I think this one's better http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/sony-kdl42w653-201308113237.htm

Black levels on the W805 are considered bad.
 
M

Madao

Member
i bought a new TV 2 months ago thanks to the input lag clusterfuck since the TV i had got a year earlier had really bad input lag.

i'll think about 4:4:4 in 4 years when i have more money.
 
N

Nags

Banned
Man said:
I think people (hardcore gamers in general) are just on the verge of waking up to this (much thanks to TV reviewers having started taking real-time graphics into consideration). I am highly impressed of the difference it makes. Here's one review where they are on the money:


http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/sony-kdl47w805a-201307043162.htm
Click to expand...

I recently got the 55" W80 (LED, passive 3D) after doing quite a bit of research on input lag. I was using a a really nice 40" samsung LED, great picture quality even in game mode, but something like 40ms. For like 2 years I played on that... fighting games, FPS and racing. Went down to like 16ms on my new display... HUGE and noticeable difference.


And this is definitely something I have only recently started paying attention to.
This is something that absolutely deserves more attention from everyone invested in games. I'm looking at YOU gaming media. They need to bring this sort of thing into light to the casual crowd. You have to dig for this information if you want it.

So many games I thought had sluggish controls were due to having high latency displays... couple that with lag from online play and I was essentially dealing with probably 2 frames of delay (I'm not sure).

It is like night and day now, can't believe I was in the dark about this issue for so long.
 
M

Mokubba

Member
Wowbagger said:
Thanks for the advice. Saved me the trouble to look up what this chroma stuff is all about. Been eyeing Sony's KDL42W653 and this seems like another good reason to get that.
Click to expand...

I've been eying it as well. I need to find a way to sell my old TV and get that in time for the PS4.

It'll give me another reasons to try fighting games again.
 
M

Miguel81

Member
On my HDTV I set it to RGB Full, then on AMD Catalyst I check the RGB 4:4:4--The YCbCr 4:4:4 produces grey bars on 4:3 content. Anyway, am I doing it right?
 
S

Shinjiru

Member
Interesting thread.

I have a Samsung D8000. I'll have to mess around with the settings later and see if I notice a difference.
 
F

Fantasmo

Member
My new TV is awesome, but my brand has the worst input lag out of anyone out there. Too bad I bought it over a month ago :-/
 
A

Alo81

Low Poly Gynecologist
For those who would like to test their display, open up this image and make sure it's displaying full size.

tint-blue-rgb-1080p.png


If the words "Red" and/or "Magenta" don't see as sharp as the rest of the words on the other colors, then your display most probably does not have 4:4:4 enabled/possible.
 
P

plagiarize

Banned
My Sony from a year or two ago passes these tests with flying colours. Not to my surprise. 1080p output from my PC has always looked pixel perfect.

My graphics card allows me to output YCbCr 4:4:4 and RGB Full 4:4:4. I've been using YCbCr and can't see a difference between the two on my TV. Should I favor one over another? Is there a test pattern that can highlight differences?
 
V

ViciousDS

Banned
Dennis said:
Here is TLoU running on a PC monitor instead of a HDTV





Click to expand...


I have a really good monitor as well but noticed that games such as call of duty look better on my TV because of all the post processing effects..... but I'll take my 9ms overall input delay (includes input delay and screen response total) overall to a slow responding TV with some minor touch up.
 
O

Otakumegane

Member
Argh, when I set my input to PC on my LN55C830 Samsung, I don't get a full screen image. Some black bars.

The screen fit option becomes disabled as well.
 
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