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Jimquisition (June 16) - Diversity? LIEversity!
- Thread starter L~A
- Start date
Pretty good episode, can't see anything I disagree with. The excuses Ubisoft have been making lately really are ridiculous. The dev insight only highlights that even more.
And good to see he liked what Nintendo did as well. I had a feeling he would be enjoying what they showed of Hyrule Warriors.
And good to see he liked what Nintendo did as well. I had a feeling he would be enjoying what they showed of Hyrule Warriors.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Good on him for positively calling out the games that do have female options
Ubisoft is not having a good day (or week really)
Looks like an usual day for Ubisoft.
Wait what's the debacle there? I haven't been following all that
ExFalsoQuodlibet
Member
Fantastic episode, truly: it mirrored, in part, the discussion we had in the other thread, which caused me some actual physical pain.
The ending is perfect: at this point Ubisoft really represents the worst side of vg industry. Bullshit excuses all over the place.
The ending is perfect: at this point Ubisoft really represents the worst side of vg industry. Bullshit excuses all over the place.
Tizoc
Member
I was just going to bring that here. That is exactly what they should have said.
Good video. What Ubisoft has been claiming is absolutely ridiculous and people need to not let up on calling them out.
That's it.
Type 0 is getting ported to the PS4 and xbone and not Vita, but was mistakenly announced for Vita before getting recanted quickly afterwards.
That's it.
Ah alright thanks
Tizoc
Member
US PS Blog announce FF Type-0 HD for PS Vita, we then learn it's for PS4 and XBone as well.
THEN we learn that it isn't coming to Vita, being a typo, and it's for XBone and PS4 only.
Metallix87
Member
That sounds less like a debacle and more like a typo.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Funny how "growing the audience" usually translates only into "bald white space marine" and "dumbing down".
I'm also mixed on the free market angle, but there has definately been several protag types that got completely out of control over the last 8 years, but I'm not quite sure avoiding that is printing money. I think it's alot more nuanced than that and that positive encouragement to try different avatars is good for people (note: I almost never pour myself into my characters, so take with a grain of salt).
Yeah, that tends to get lost somewhere alot of times as the discussion careens into extremist shouting matches, namecalling, and ultimatums.
It also doesn't come off as they're lying/stupid (as per the episode). It was one of the things R* got right when this came out with GTA5; that was the game they were making and the protags they needed to do with that. They weren't He-Man Woman Hatin' Club and they also weren't obligated to not do that ever, either.
I'm also mixed on the free market angle, but there has definately been several protag types that got completely out of control over the last 8 years, but I'm not quite sure avoiding that is printing money. I think it's alot more nuanced than that and that positive encouragement to try different avatars is good for people (note: I almost never pour myself into my characters, so take with a grain of salt).
Yeah, that tends to get lost somewhere alot of times as the discussion careens into extremist shouting matches, namecalling, and ultimatums.
It also doesn't come off as they're lying/stupid (as per the episode). It was one of the things R* got right when this came out with GTA5; that was the game they were making and the protags they needed to do with that. They weren't He-Man Woman Hatin' Club and they also weren't obligated to not do that ever, either.
Pyrrhus
Member
So break this down for me. Ubisoft said they couldn't afford to make female characters for multiplayer in AC:Unity? Like, from a financial standpoint?
I can understand why from a story standpoint why you would need a fixed character as the protagonist, since all of these games are based Desmond Miles and his DNA (yes, even after he's dead, they're still using DNA samples they recovered from him in order to do this historical stuff in the fiction and he thus needs fixed ancestors).
I guess I don't see why you would need that kind of exactitude for faceless helper characters that would be controlled by other players in multiplayer, though. The local player is always going to appear be Arnaud for every player from what I've heard. You've had female assassins as prominent characters since ACII and could specifically recruit, promote, and command women in Brotherhood and Revelations. They made a creole black woman the main character in one of the most recent games and there are a large number of minority characters throughout the series. I don't see any reason why this would be a political issue for them where they would deliberately exclude women.
They let you play as women in previous games' multiplayer components. I think there were about as many female avatars as male, in fact. So it's not like there's some previous pattern of discrimination. Quite the opposite, really. The difference here is that multiplayer in the previous games took place on smaller, stripped down maps rather than in the world and missions of the single player game.
And to get back to this idea that it would be too expensive. Who said it? Was it a marketing person or was it a developer? Because a marketing person may have just said whatever fool thing popped into their head when they were put on the spot and asked why there were no female characters.
Is it possible that the budget they're referring to may in fact be the memory budget? Unity is, after all, the first AC designed for a new generation of hardware. They've dramatically increased the scale of the game world and the detail. Huge, huge crowds of people, new, more extensive animation for the player character, 1:1 scale buildings with tons extra detail over previous titles. And you'll note that the extra players in multiplayer look and move more or less identically to Arnaud. Is it not possible that there really isn't enough RAM free at the moment to allow them to load in a female character's unique animation and sound clips? They have to design this game down to the memory restrictions of the Xbox One, remember.
There is a precedent for this sort of thing. All of the characters in Gears of War were giant beef monsters wearing old cars for armor. Both the good guys and the Locusts. But this was so that they could use the same skeletons and animations for all of them because they didn't have enough RAM to go around. But Epic continued to optimize their engine and eventually they did add female player characters in Gears 3. Is it so unlikely that we have a similar situation here?
The given answer of money is obviously bullshit, but there may be in fact be an actual technical restriction keeping them from including female characters in this game's multiplayer. I really don't know. But what I do know is that, these days, critics and forum goers are certainly far too eager automatically assume nefarious motives and jump down the throats of developers on issues of representation. Hold your ammo for targets that actually deserve it rather than emptying the clip on whatever pops into view first.
I can understand why from a story standpoint why you would need a fixed character as the protagonist, since all of these games are based Desmond Miles and his DNA (yes, even after he's dead, they're still using DNA samples they recovered from him in order to do this historical stuff in the fiction and he thus needs fixed ancestors).
I guess I don't see why you would need that kind of exactitude for faceless helper characters that would be controlled by other players in multiplayer, though. The local player is always going to appear be Arnaud for every player from what I've heard. You've had female assassins as prominent characters since ACII and could specifically recruit, promote, and command women in Brotherhood and Revelations. They made a creole black woman the main character in one of the most recent games and there are a large number of minority characters throughout the series. I don't see any reason why this would be a political issue for them where they would deliberately exclude women.
They let you play as women in previous games' multiplayer components. I think there were about as many female avatars as male, in fact. So it's not like there's some previous pattern of discrimination. Quite the opposite, really. The difference here is that multiplayer in the previous games took place on smaller, stripped down maps rather than in the world and missions of the single player game.
And to get back to this idea that it would be too expensive. Who said it? Was it a marketing person or was it a developer? Because a marketing person may have just said whatever fool thing popped into their head when they were put on the spot and asked why there were no female characters.
Is it possible that the budget they're referring to may in fact be the memory budget? Unity is, after all, the first AC designed for a new generation of hardware. They've dramatically increased the scale of the game world and the detail. Huge, huge crowds of people, new, more extensive animation for the player character, 1:1 scale buildings with tons extra detail over previous titles. And you'll note that the extra players in multiplayer look and move more or less identically to Arnaud. Is it not possible that there really isn't enough RAM free at the moment to allow them to load in a female character's unique animation and sound clips? They have to design this game down to the memory restrictions of the Xbox One, remember.
There is a precedent for this sort of thing. All of the characters in Gears of War were giant beef monsters wearing old cars for armor. Both the good guys and the Locusts. But this was so that they could use the same skeletons and animations for all of them because they didn't have enough RAM to go around. But Epic continued to optimize their engine and eventually they did add female player characters in Gears 3. Is it so unlikely that we have a similar situation here?
The given answer of money is obviously bullshit, but there may be in fact be an actual technical restriction keeping them from including female characters in this game's multiplayer. I really don't know. But what I do know is that, these days, critics and forum goers are certainly far too eager automatically assume nefarious motives and jump down the throats of developers on issues of representation. Hold your ammo for targets that actually deserve it rather than emptying the clip on whatever pops into view first.
Green Slime, you have to remember that the Vita fans were one of the main drivers behind the localisation requests. Then, after much lobbying and shameful begging, out it comes... and is for consoles other than the Vita. That's gotta suck big time for the Vita-ites.
Whoa, missed that he was not feeling well last time he made a Jimquisition. In fact, missed out on the entire last episode. Good to see he's apparently all fit and chipper again, judging by the middle part that is.
Anyway: Thank god for him.
Whoa, missed that he was not feeling well last time he made a Jimquisition. In fact, missed out on the entire last episode. Good to see he's apparently all fit and chipper again, judging by the middle part that is.
Anyway: Thank god for him.
Tizoc
Member
It caused a debacle, and I may be using a more mild way of describing the reaction :V
gigantor21
Member
Seriously. Pretending that it would've been some big financial and logistical burden for the same company that wants to put out 2 AC games per year is just hilariously stupid on their part.
I could not help but sit there and scratch my head upon hearing Ubisoft's statement. As the first thing that popped into my head were the female character models in their AC multiplayer modes. Or even AC Liberation. But no worries. I'm sure you will get all new female character options via DLC for Unity.
It also fits so well: Supposedly more than half the playable characters in Hyrule Warriors are female. One of the three newly announced Smash characters is female, one is male, one is gender neutral. Bayonetta is of course female, the primarily featured Splatoon character is female, and Xenoblade X lets you chose gender and race, and Treehouse demoed both (white male and black female).
SneakyStephan
Banned
I bet with the money they spend on the bullshit lying false advertising e3 trailers they could hire a hundred female voice actresses and animate the characters they voice
cloudzack117
Banned
can someone explain to me when it became a bad thing to have a white protagonist? i can understand diversity and all that, but why are people so butthurt about it?
AFAIK, the real comedy of this whole thing is that there ARE female characters, models and VO for the multiplayer, which makes most of Ubisoft's claims against why they can include them in the single player all the more ludicrous.
Because 25 years of modern gaming later, it's still pretty much all we have.
I can't count the number of games on one hand that don't have that (That's an exaggeration, I actually can). With Ubi specifically, it stings a lot because they've made separate games and DLC starring black characters and have done next to nothing to promote them. Meanwhile, they're expecting Aiden Pierce to be the new Master Chief and he is a boring, listless, mess. They are abjectly refusing to promote new ideas, even ones that are internally green lit. THAT'S the problem.
Maybe because they tried to say making women playable characters are too expensive, while on the other hand saying they want to expand the demographics and 'appeal to a wider audience' in order to make more money, while ignoring half of the human population.
"We need more people and newer people to play our games"
"I know, lets just appeal to the primary demographic that we have had since the start of the video games industry, that's going to expand our market!"
People aren't butthurt over white protagonists. They are annoyed at the complete lack of diversity of any kind, and hearing ridiculous excuses as to why only makes that annoyance even worse.
Pyrrhus
Member
So this game does indeed have a traditional multiplayer mode like they had from Brotherhood forward and it features female models and animations? That would suggest that there really is a technical reason why they can't have female characters in the single-player mode's new co-op feature.
People like variety in their characters. It's also nice to see minorities in favorable roles when you are a minority. As a black man the only series I can go to regularly for a black player character are Madden, NBA 2K, and FIFA.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
That was a satisfying roast. Good stuff Jim.
FTFY
Yes.
It suggests that since they've already taken the time to develop all these things for the multiplayer, using them in the new co-op feature should be less than herculean effort, especially since their excuse is, "well it would take too long and be too costly NOW, but ignore this thing that we've already done for another mode in the game."
It's sort of baffling, but I imagine the real reason is the time necessary to do this co-op stuff would push the game into 2015, and Ubisoft wants to have yearly Assassin's Creed games from here on out, especially since Watch_Dogs 1.5 or 2 won't be ready for 2015 (though it's almost assured for 2016).
Maybe you missed the part where Shahid himself said Type 0 was nowhere near the top of the Vita wishlist. Or missed the part where Vita is a zombie Square Enix wants zero part of.
The only debacle in all of that is the Vita itself.
Pyrrhus
Member
Also, I believe Jim bagged on Far Cry 4 for having a white protagonist. Haven't we learned that's not the case? Isn't the player character supposed to be the son of the villain's old rival and a native woman? Which is to say some kind of psuedo-Tibetan? Even if the twist that you're in fact the villain's son turns out to be true, he's only half white according to the background story, so the protagonist would be 1/4 white, 3/4 Asian. Are we going by some kind of weird reverse One Drop Rule?
Metroid-Squadron
Banned
Games have a budget and devs have to prioritize. Is the cost of doing all the work to include female playable characters offset by the sales of the bigots that don't play games without playable female characters? I'd say no.
Their legitimate excuse was, "We have a certain vision for this game and will continue writing the story and creating characters that serve that vision." Just like GTA5, and that's valid.
No one is demanding they put women in the game. But fumbling over yourself and making up silly excuses for why you didn't is stupid. What they should be getting out of this is that people actually do want a game starring a respectable female lead, so maybe the next time you make a game with a minority lead, you shouldn't bury it like you did the last two.
huh?
I don't get your post. His point of the video was it's a bullshit excuse to say it's a cost.
Ubisoft, the company with thousands of people working on a single game, draws the line for budget at creaing female protagonists but not anything else, including deliberately coding in higher then current ultra graphics for the PC version and disabling them? I'm sure that work involved in developing all of those better looking effects is paying off in the budget when its all disabled.
Budget excuses dont work here.
Antagonist. The game DOES have a white protagonist. Two of them in fact.
Metroid-Squadron
Banned
And it's not. Individual game projects run on a budget. Cost is always a factor. Ubisoft makes a lot of money precisely because it manages its finances efficiently.
How do you know they didn't cut anything else?