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Htown · Jun 16, 2014

Mod Edit:
For your reference, here's a brief list of things that aren't particularly relevant to discussion here:
-these videos take a long time
-these videos probably cost less than $140k to make
-these videos/the Kickstarter are making/made Sarkeesian money
-these videos are only presenting Sarkeesian's side of the argument
-Sarkeesian wears makeup/earrings/whatever
-Sarkeesian turned off comments to her videos
-Sarkeesian wants to make money
-Sarkeesian is not a being of pure virtue, making videos solely to help humanity with no gain accruing to herself
-Sarkeesian likes/wants attention/death threats/whatever

We'd like to strongly recommend that if one of the above is your contribution to the thread, you either come up with something relevant to say, or not bother. Note that this list is not exhaustive. Thank you.

Boom.

Discussing the prevalence of sexualized female NPCs in games that have no purpose in the game world other than "check out these virtual boobies."

Deleted member 47027 · Jun 16, 2014

Tropes vs Women has ended up being quite a solid set of videos. Looking forward to this.

Vylash · Jun 16, 2014

Praying this thread doesn't end as horribly as it probably will

Sober · Jun 16, 2014

CureVylash said:
Praying this thread doesn't end as horribly as it probably will

I don't know what you're expecting then.

wildfire · Jun 16, 2014

SO what games are being spoiled in these vids, if at all?

TheBaronOfNA · Jun 16, 2014

Is kind of weird that Max Payne 3, Deus Ex HR and Binary Domain are as examples with "trying to justify it with empowerment of racial characters" when they actually try to be decadent. I mean, I guess still are "decorations" but they are not trying to exalt a stereotype (except that quest in China en Deus Ex HR)

Dabanton · Jun 16, 2014

Nice.Looking forward to watching this later.

toastyToast · Jun 16, 2014

wildfire said:
SO what games are being spoiled in these vids, if at all?

I anticipate it won't delve into plot points given the topic being covered. I'll leave it to someone else to find out though

PK Gaming · Jun 16, 2014

Finally, I can't wait to dig in

Brakke · Jun 16, 2014

wildfire said:
SO what games are being spoiled in these vids, if at all?

If the argument is "look at this person who isn't even a character", then this video literally can't spoil anything.

Always felt like a concern troll in these threads anyway. Critical discussion and examination are more valuable than experiencing the plot of any video game blind.

Mesoian · Jun 16, 2014

CureVylash said:
Praying this thread doesn't end as horribly as it probably will

It will, but there will still be some good conversations to be had in it.

I'll have to watch this later though, in not in the mental state to do anything but pick at the lesser examples given. Gotta be fresh going into this.

Edit: Can someone post the list of spoiled games in the OP? That's important to a lot of people.

Orayn · Jun 16, 2014

CureVylash said:
Praying this thread doesn't end as horribly as it probably will

One would hope people would get the hint and express their opinions with tact and forethought after the way the some recent threads have gone, but GAF is a big place and there will always be a few people who want to make "epic" driveby dismissals.

Htown · Jun 16, 2014

I haven't seen any plot spoilers yet, but I'll try to put them in the OP if I see them.

TheBaronOfNA · Jun 16, 2014

Orayn said:
One would hope people would get the hint and express their dissenting opinions with tact and forethought after the way the some recent threads have gone, but GAF is a big place and there will always be a few people who want to make "epic" driveby dismissals.

That occur at both "sides", thought. So let's no star a blame game.

hawk2025 · Jun 16, 2014

Her videos have been getting progressively better, with more structure and a clearer hypothesis, so I look forward to watching this.

Hopefully it keeps up! Starting now.

140.85 · Jun 16, 2014

I love how right off the bat there is a misleading, context-free example via Binary Domain. Because it's out of the ordinary that when you go through the slums that have prostitutes that they'll...act like prostitutes. No mention of all the other female characters in that game? Never change, Anita. :\

Kyzon · Jun 16, 2014

CureVylash said:
Praying this thread doesn't end as horribly as it probably will

It will probably be worse sadly

PataHikari · Jun 16, 2014

140.85 said:
I love how right off the bat there is a misleading, context-free example via Binary Domain. Because it's out of the ordinary that when you go through the slums that have prostitutes that they'll...act like prostitutes. No mention of all the other female characters in that game. Never change, Anita. :\

Oh please.

Fiction does not spring fully formed from the void. It's made by people, and people put scenes into fiction for a reason.

Vice · Jun 16, 2014

140.85 said:
I love how right off the bat there is a misleading, context-free example via Binary Domain. Because it's out of the ordinary that when you go through the slums that have prostitutes that they'll...act like prostitutes. No mention of all the other female characters in that game? Never change, Anita. :\

Well, does that change the fact that the prostitutes are background decorations?

TheBaronOfNA · Jun 16, 2014

PataHikari said:
Oh please.

Fiction does not spring fully formed from the void. It's made by people, and people put scenes into fiction for a reason.

It was a Japanese made game, thought. You can say they made it with a western public in mind but is not exactly weird in Yakuza games.

Well, does that change the fact that the prostitutes are background decorations?

It would be fair if not was because she introduced the segment with "they are there with the excuse of empowerment of women of color".

Brakke · Jun 16, 2014

PataHikari said:
Oh please.

Fiction does not spring fully formed from the void. It's made by people, and people put scenes into fiction for a reason.

Yeah, that there *are* prostitutes visible at all is a choice the author made. And Anita's saying that choice doesn't serve any purpose of theme or characterization but is an end of itself: to decorate the scene with titties.

QueenOfThorns · Jun 16, 2014

140.85 said:
I love how right off the bat there is a misleading, context-free example via Binary Domain. Because it's out of the ordinary that when you go through the slums that have prostitutes that they'll...act like prostitutes. No mention of all the other female characters in that game. Never change, Anita. :\

Seeing as how that is exactly what this video is about, and that she added a disclaimer that while you can enjoy other aspects of the games while critiquing individual things they do, I don't really see the problem with that.

Good video.

Htown · Jun 16, 2014

140.85 said:
I love how right off the bat there is a misleading, context-free example via Binary Domain. Because it's out of the ordinary that when you go through the slums that have prostitutes that they'll...act like prostitutes. No mention of all the other female characters in that game? Never change, Anita. :\

No one is forcing game makers to make levels that go through slums that have prostitutes, dude.

That's the entire point.

Deleted member 47027 · Jun 16, 2014

140.85 said:
I love how right off the bat there is a misleading, context-free example via Binary Domain. Because it's out of the ordinary that when you go through the slums that have prostitutes that they'll...act like prostitutes. No mention of all the other female characters in that game? Never change, Anita. :\

Come on now. She has a point when she talks about how there is a propensity for designers to give people corridors filled with background sex object women to cross through. Lots of examples too.

PixelNinja · Jun 16, 2014

I can't take her seriously.

After getting that massive money grant, she still stole other peoples gameplay videos and art. It doesn't help that she disables her ratings/comments as well as cherrypicking blatant trolls to promote herself as a "victim".

I wouldn't mind if it was done by someone else, heck, I'd love to see a video that focuses on a group of people who actually work in the industry and their outlook on representation in the industry.

AAK · Jun 16, 2014

At first I was like, "Why is this unique to gaming?" But then she covers that at around the 8 minute mark. Good video and brings a lot of valid points.

Mononoke · Jun 16, 2014

Edit: going to watch this video first.

wildfire · Jun 16, 2014

Htown said:
I haven't seen any plot spoilers yet, but I'll try to put them in the OP if I see them.

Cool. I appreciate it. I didn't mind experiencing the first video which I felt created some great discussions in this forum but I had to delay watching subsequent ones because they were touching on too many games I owned and were working on.

Silky · Jun 16, 2014

Definitely not a bad video.

Brakke · Jun 16, 2014

PixelNinja said:
lol.

Read the OP, Junior.

QueenOfThorns · Jun 16, 2014

PixelNinja said:
I can't take her seriously.

After getting that massive money grant, she still stole other peoples gameplay videos and art. It doesn't help that she disables her ratings/comments as well as cherrypicking blatant trolls to promote herself as a "victim".

I wouldn't mind if it was done by someone else, heck, I'd love to see a video that focuses on a group of people who actually work in the industry and their outlook on representation in the industry.

Did you read the OP? Also for anyone worrying about spoilers I don't recall anything that could be one.

TheBaronOfNA · Jun 16, 2014

AAK said:
At first I was like, "Why is this unique to gaming?" But then she covers that at around the 8 minute mark. Good video and brings a lot of valid points.

Really?, the argument she used is like the one you hear the media say in negative light. (Interactive and open, hence troubling)

meijiko · Jun 16, 2014

Ugh, that video was painful to watch. I have to wonder how so many game developers feel these sorts of scenarios are necessary, or at the very least beneficial to the overall experience.

I feel really gross for watching some of this shit.

jimi_dini · Jun 16, 2014

Brakke said:
Read the OP, Junior.

And better do it fast and edit the post. EDIT: well, nvm.

Anyway, I was just thinking "prostitutes in Binary Domain, wat?". I googled and yes, there are like 2. But they aren't nude or even close to that.

I was only able to remember that "chop chop" guy, who is also "useless", but it's about creating a setting. And without any dialog you wouldn't even know that those are prostitutes (I actually didn't talk to them, go figure).

Those are "sex objects"? Not in my book. Those are simply "extras". Just look at Fey - that's what I call hot. Still Fey is not useless and she is

also a robot

Deleted member 47027 · Jun 16, 2014

Just wrapped this up. I think it's her best video yet - and offers a lot of alternatives for designers to look into. I hope a lot of people watch this one, it's really good and makes you want change, and change how you see what you've done before, thoughtlessly. Very good video.

fader · Jun 16, 2014

meijiko said:
Ugh, that video was painful to watch. I have to wonder how so many game developers feel these sorts of scenarios are necessary, or at the very least beneficial to the overall experience.

I feel really gross for watching some of this shit.

I don't think most dev's do it on purpose with the thought of defaming women. I think its sort of instinct where you really don't think of the damage your actually doing. Something where they only think of the purpose of it rather then the effect of it.

Muscle Wizard · Jun 16, 2014

TheBaronOfNA said:
Is kind of weird that Max Payne 3, Deus Ex HR and Binary Domain are as examples with "trying to justify it with empowerment of racial characters" when they actually try to be decadent. I mean, I guess still are "decorations" but they are not trying to exalt a stereotype (except that quest in China en Deus Ex HR)

Deus Ex: HR decency

Arsenic Yellow · Jun 16, 2014

meijiko said:
Ugh, that video was painful to watch. I have to wonder how so many game developers feel these sorts of scenarios are necessary, or at the very least beneficial to the overall experience.

I feel really gross for watching some of this shit.

Agreed, it's a good video that brings a lot of good points. Of course, too many people in this thread will overlook her main points to nitpick at little things, like talking about the uses of certain games they may like. Anita even says in the beginning, just because a game is good doesnt mean it can have problematic elements in it.

mantidor · Jun 16, 2014

I had no idea prostitution and strippers were so common in games. Also how completely unrealistic they are portrayed.

Developers are really 16 year olds.

Gestault · Jun 16, 2014

I'm roughly halfway in, and while I think the thesis for the video is more significant than some of the others, when part of the statement against the use (or frequency) of this type of character is that these characters' sexuality is for the benefit of the player, not the character's own agency or for narrative significance, I seriously question some of the examples she's pulled in to highlight it. For example, using a scene which within a storyline is showing a monstrous human trafficking ring but only showing the camera pan over the female characters in the context of this discussion, I feel like that's knowingly insincere to the criticism.

meijiko · Jun 16, 2014

eyekantspele said:
I don't think most dev's do it on purpose with the thought of defaming women. I think its sort of instinct where you really don't think of the damage your actually doing. Something where they only think of the purpose of it rather then the effect of it.

I agree, I don't think they do it with that intent, and I believe it's more of a symptom of a very large societal problem.

But there still remains the fact that someone thought it would be a good thing to do, something beneficial and actually worth the time and effort it takes to create. And that leaves me with an uneasy feeling.

firehawk12 · Jun 16, 2014

AAK said:
At first I was like, "Why is this unique to gaming?" But then she covers that at around the 8 minute mark. Good video and brings a lot of valid points.

I wasn't interested in watching this one because I don't find her videos all that interesting, but what is it specifically about the background nature of women that is unique to games? Because so far this is stuff you can find in any medium.

BananaSprinkles · Jun 16, 2014

In ad after ad throughout the 80s and 90s, we see women placed on display alongside arcade games, conflating the two and presenting them both as toys to be played with.

Wait, what? In what way do ads targeting male consumers that feature women imply women are nothing but toys to be played with? Do ads targeting female consumers that feature men imply men are nothing but objects to be used? I don't understand this line of reasoning.

Basketball · Jun 16, 2014

Very enjoyable video

but tbh I'm fine with this stuff in the medium. I really hope there is not a trend where these kind of things don't appear much in future games. Not saying she or people that agree with her are trying to put more restrictions or stating that this is a big red flag in games now but I like when devs pull no punches in their games and remove all restrictions.

Objectively Bad Opinion · Jun 16, 2014

I've never taken any game with sex props seriously.

As soon as I see the jank looping poses, hands clipping through tits, blank expressions I don't even see the imagery as depicting something that engenders lust, I just feel juvenile-ized. They're caricatures.

I'm actually offended more by smeglords who mod these things into the games they play.

fader · Jun 16, 2014

meijiko said:
I agree, I don't think they do it with that intent, and I believe it's more of a symptom of a very large societal problem.

But there still remains the fact that someone thought it would be a good thing to do, something beneficial and actually worth the time and effort it takes to create. And that leaves me with an uneasy feeling.

well that's why we need things like this to show people and hopefully "wake them up" on what their actually doing and hopefully they will find alternatives that are not damaging

The Reptilian Frag · Jun 16, 2014

I really hope developers will not be influenced to change because of these videos. I mean, all the stuff she talks about are also present in film, tv series, and anime etc.

xKilltheMx · Jun 16, 2014

I have some problems with the video, but I understand the basic problems she has. She cherrypicks a little bit too much for my taste but as always I try to keep an open mind.

Zaphod · Jun 16, 2014

jimi_dini said:
Those are "sex objects"? Not in my book. Those are simply "extras". Just look at Fey - that's what I call hot. Still Fey is not useless and she is

also a robot

The first one is literally offering sex for money.

dazzlerazzle · Jun 16, 2014

What happened to here EYEBROWS ?

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