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Former Valve VR dev: "I think VR is bad news"

M

Man

Member
Fabian Giesen has worked as an on & off contractor for Valve's VR team. It's an interesting read because this guy is intimately familiar with the scene and its destination while obviously being highly technically adept. Seems like he has some moral issues with the VR movement.

This writeup works both as a fodder for anti-VR folks while simultaneously hyping up and re-confirming how strong the technology is and the shift it will provide. Here you go:
https://gist.github.com/rygorous/251b945aef2046ac7cee

Some tidbits:
Resignation letter to Valve said:
Subject: I want out.

As the subject says, I would like to end my contract with Valve - preferably by
the end of the month, though I realize that's probably too short of a notice.

Part of this has to do with the direction of the project. With AR, there's a
variety of information display/visualization applications, all of which are at
the very least interesting and could turn out to be tremendously empowering in
various ways. The endpoint of VR, on the other hand - all engineering
practicalities of first aiming for a seemingly easier goal aside - seems to be
fundamentally anti-social, completing the sad trajectory of entertainment moving
further and further away from shared social experiences. (As I have mentioned
multiple times, I find the limited, formalized, abstracted and ultimately
alienated social interactions in most forms of online gaming to be immensely
off-putting).

So, at least as VR is concerned, while I find the tech interesting and
challenging, I am deeply ambivalent about what it leads to.

That is not the primary reason for this mail, but it certainly is a factor in
my decision.
Click to expand...
So, to make sure that's properly unpacked: when I say that I think "VR is bad
news", I am talking specifically about the VR-enabled MMORPG-esque shared
universes that cyberpunk has promised us :), not about the much wider and more
open-ended concept of "things we might be able to do with working VR headsets
once they exist". And lest I be accused of setting up a strawman here, the VR
MMORPG universe really *is* what a lot of VR enthusiasts are hoping for, and
simultaneously what a lot of really smart people working on VR have repeatedly
(and publicly) declared to be their goal for VR.

The thing about VR is, it really *is* qualitatively different from other
entertainment experiences.
Click to expand...

His twitter: https://twitter.com/rygorous
 
P

Pachimari

Member
I'm gonna buy a Oculus Rift but I totally agree it's anti-social. Gaming already makes me feel alone and VR will probably enhance that feeling.

Though I could see myself using it when I'm alone, and then it's nice we also got Nintendo so we can use their consoles for the social get-together.
 
U

ultratruman

Banned
18hgumuydkgwcjpg.jpg


It's matrix time, baby.
 
M

mattmagician

Member
quantumnerd said:
So this guy would think a VR MMORPG which would be a perfect duplicate of reality would be socially isolating.

What?
Click to expand...

I may be completely off, but I imagine he means that by there being a "virtual" hangout for people, that people will hangout less in real life? I'm..not entirely sure. Would be great for people who have trouble socializing in public though, I imagine.
 
D

Dictator93

Member
I can understand the fear of taking away from interpersonal/physicalized human interactions which I also enjoy and cherish.

But like all things, there are multiples sides. VR could lead to an anomic atomised lifestyle for many or it could lead to an interesting blossoming of sociality on the web.

I remain excited for it on a technological level, but do understand skepticism regarding its social impacts in gaming.

Then again, I am skeptical of lots of things.
 
Krappadizzle

Krappadizzle

Member
Man, hype. It'll still be a year or two before it's consumer viable I'd imagine. But the thoughts and possibilities are enticing as hell.
 
Hoho for breakfast

Hoho for breakfast

Member
What? I can imagine connected VR and it would end up being quite social I'd think. Virtual orgies are the future.

Edit: oh I see he probably means real life social interactions.
 
S

SZips

Member
I don't understand how playing a VR game is any less social than playing a game in front of a monitor or TV.
 
C

Cave Johnson

Member
VR, like any proponent technology is based around the software that supports it. His claims of the "MMORPG-cyberpunk" direction is so narrow-minded that the same principle could be said for your standard consoles dual-analogs are supportive of first-person shooters only and how many console developers are striving to establish that gameplay feature as it's core. But we all know that they diversity of experience is independently attributed to who's buying it.

This is a weak dismissive excuse for the VR argument. It only showcases the lack of awareness of consumer diverse interest in favor of a broad view of what VR could be according to his theory.
 
S

sleepykyo

Member
quantumnerd said:
So this guy would think a VR MMORPG which would be a perfect duplicate of reality would be socially isolating.

What?
Click to expand...

It would be a great simulation of reality but it would still be simulation. Generally people don't put WoW at the same level as playing basketball at the local community center or dancing at the club.
 
D

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
When it comes to games I really don't WANT a "shares social experience" unless I'm enjoying multiplayer in the same room with someone else. I tend to dislike playing games with strangers anyways.
 
E

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
The anti-social bit keeps getting swept under the rug (especially on GAF) but it really is VR's biggest challenge to overcome. Not just in terms of the stigma, but in practice as well. I wouldn't even say that it's something that can be overcome necessarily, they just have to make sure that as much effort as possible goes into making it an extension of your body/senses rather than something you have to engage and disengage with.
 
B

benny_a

extra source of jiggaflops
SZips said:
I don't understand how playing a VR game is any less social than playing a game in front of a monitor or TV.
Click to expand...
You are less accessible to your fellow men than if you play a singleplayer game on TV.

And that is ignoring the shared experience games that you can play on a TV.
 
M

mrklaw

MrArseFace
arguably an online game in VR could be more social than a standard online multiplayer game - providing they have some way of interacting with each other's avatars.

But then in his comments he also says he finds current online multiplayer games anti-social, so tbh Valve doesn't sound like a good fit for him anyway - he'd hate TF2, Dota, L4D etc.

Sounds like he wants couch multiplayer
 
D

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
benny_a said:
You are less accessible to your fellow men than if you play a singleplayer game on TV.

And that is ignoring the shared experience games that you can play on a TV.
Click to expand...
Less accessible? Where the heck are you playing games?

Sounds like he wants couch multiplayer
Click to expand...
Which I love too but it's not easy to get that going most of the time.
 
A

A Fish Aficionado

I am going to make it through this year if it kills me
SZips said:
I don't understand how playing a VR game is any less social than playing a game in front of a monitor or TV.
Click to expand...
Or watching a film on Netflix on a mobile device.

Clearly isolation is driven by many external factors other than strictly tech.

Poster below is right. Libraries can be very lonely.
 
L

Lowmelody

Member
Seriously I'm glad I wasn't the only one who's mouth was watering reading the whole thing. This is it guys and gals, we're in the quick stream run up to the waterfall now. Only a short while until this shitty world becomes a choice. :)
 
J

JoeInky

Member
SZips said:
I don't understand how playing a VR game is any less social than playing a game in front of a monitor or TV.
Click to expand...

His letter seems to suggest that he also dislikes playing games by yourself in front of a monitor online as well, probably doesn't want to see the death of local multiplayer come even sooner.


This doesn't make me any more hyped for VR, I still think in it's current state it's pretty shitty, if it was more advanced to the point of it not being a wearable piece of tech I might be interested but that's not happening for a long time, if at all, so I'm going to stick with monitors for the near future.
 
M

More Fun To Compute

Member
Great. More anti social the better.

Augmented reality can go die in a fire. I'm suspicious of people who are too interested in mundane things around them that they have no reason to need information on. Especially if they think that it empowers them. Its sounds more psychopathic and dangerous than enjoying a good old fashioned anti social entertainment experience.
 
D

Discotheque

Banned
enzo_gt said:
The anti-social bit keeps getting swept under the rug (especially on GAF) but it really is VR's biggest challenge to overcome. Not just in terms of the stigma, but in practice as well. I wouldn't even say that it's something that can be overcome necessarily, they just have to make sure that as much effort as possible goes into making it an extension of your body/senses rather than something you have to engage and disengage with.
Click to expand...

imagine oculus waifu with cryengine tech and fleshlight usb attachment

....this is how the world ends
 
M

Mauricio_Magus

Banned
Isn't the anti-social aspect the same as playing solo games?

I mean, yeah you can say you're isolating yourself 100% from "reality" but it's not like I'm paying that much attention to my surroundings when I'm playing a game in front of a screen.
 
B

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
This guy will turn out to be the founder of Zion from The Matrix.
 
S

Seanspeed

Banned
I think mobile VR will eventually usher in a new era of social gaming(and that includes local co-op gaming). It definitely is physically isolating for your eyes and ears, but it is not inherently anti-social.
 
F

fabricated backlash

Member
VR is the ultimate technologically achievable goal for anti social people, so now that it's within grasp of becoming a reality I can see how it might make some of it's creators a bit nervous about it's implications.

Good on him for sticking to his principles.
 
N

Nzyme32

Member
I think I'm going to need some sort of password protected timed PC auto-shutdown or power cut out, in order to prevent me being hopelessly hooked to the VR juiciness
 
B

benny_a

extra source of jiggaflops
dark10x said:
Less accessible? Where the heck are you playing games?
Click to expand...
I don't even understand the question.

It's absolutely self-evidence that having a VR interface strapped to your face with binaural headphones while you sit down in your own world that you are less accessible to others around you than if you are sitting on the couch where others can see what you are doing and if they want your attention you just turn your head slightly.
 
E

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
Turin Turambar said:
Anti-social experience for just one person.

So... just like books.
Click to expand...
Poor comparison considering you can't interact with others while reading a book.. unless your reading to books to someone else in which case it's a one way street and not a great example either.
 
Z

Zaptruder

Banned
I can see what he's saying... but been close to the technology doesn't stop you from falling into the 'authenticity' trap. Which is the belief that only reality can provide the authentic experiences we really crave.

On one hand, authenticity *is* important. But it's certainly not the be all and end all - and it belies the reality that authentic social communication can occur through virtual mediums.

Think of all the relationships forged on line - even if they never meet up in the real world, the feelings are still true.

Having said that, in the standard 2D display internet dichotomy, you can say that the qualitative experience of social interaction is largely diminished through the lack of real time face to face body language communication, and you'd have a point.

But... if they do VR right, then that's the quality of communication that you'll be getting in VR - it'll make virtual social communication and the reality of the feelings that rely on the technology that much better, and in a sense that much more real.

And when you ladden upon that the possibilities that can only occur in VR - sharing high quality virtual communication with family and friends around the world at frequency - something that is uneconomical for most, or engagement in activities that couldn't exist in our world (something as simple as watching movies 'outdoor on a moon of jupiter', to something as complex as flying spaceships in an OASIS inspired metaverse) - then suddenly the range of social engagement that can occur expands dramatically, creating a wider richer range of reality that wouldn't be possible without VR.
 
M

mrklaw

MrArseFace
Seanspeed said:
I think mobile VR will eventually usher in a new era of social gaming(and that includes local co-op gaming). It definitely is physically isolating for your eyes and ears, but it is not inherently anti-social.
Click to expand...

I think so too. Couch multiplayer isn't easy to organise these days, with people being in different locations etc. VR has the possibility to bring people from different physical locations into one virtual location.
 
R

RalchAC

Member
I don't get what's the problem about gaming being "anti-social". Reading is as anti-social as it can gets and nobody complains.

I don't want everything I do to be "social". Sometimes you just want to sit, switch on your console and play ALONE a good game for a while. For those moments VR is totally fine.

There are nice co-op focused games (be local or on-line) that I could play with my friends when I feel like doing it. And I doubt they're going to disappear suddenly even if VR takes off.
 
Z

Zaptruder

Banned
benny_a said:
I don't even understand the question.

It's absolutely self-evidence that having a VR interface strapped to your face with binaural headphones while you sit down in your own world that you are less accessible to others around you than if you are sitting on the couch where others can see what you are doing and if they want your attention you just turn your head slightly.
Click to expand...

If you only ever think about the vantage point of VR from the external perspective, then VR will be less sociable than a book or a standard computer.

If you think about it from the user perspective, is technology where you interact with people via text and keyboard and mouse input more sociable than technology where you engage people with natural body language cues - head motion, eye motion, speech, arms, legs, body, etc?
 
N

Neo C.

Member
SZips said:
I don't understand how playing a VR game is any less social than playing a game in front of a monitor or TV.
Click to expand...

Playing in front of a monitor means you are occassionally totally immersed into the game. Playing VR means you completely shut off RL.

I guess healthy people can limit themselves, but some people are going to stay on VR for too long.
 
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