What barriers? Wouldn't it be the inverse (and almost decidedly so) through the stripping of local multiplayer altogether? If we're talking about the trajectory RE: social connectivity, I'm pretty sure deemphasizing real social experience in favour of parasocial VR experiences is exactly what he's trying to get at as being problematic. We've seen this phenomenon in other forms of entertainment as well, most notably television.
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Former Valve VR dev: "I think VR is bad news"
- Thread starter Man
- Start date
So what you are saying is that books are more anti-social than VR?
They have been around for a while and haven't led to the downfall of civilization.
jobrro
Member
If I am playing game (or watching a good TV show or film for that matter) I won't want to be paying attention to other people anyway. I dislike when people talk during films or TV shows I haven't seen before as well as games.
VR seems sort of like headphones to me, a personal experience that won't fully replace a home theatre/ massive TV. Obviously VR can be more immersive than a TV, but I have yet to have first hand experience with the current tech so can't really comment on that. To be honest I'm not a huge fan of first person perspective anyway but am still eager to see the new experiences possible with VR.
VR seems sort of like headphones to me, a personal experience that won't fully replace a home theatre/ massive TV. Obviously VR can be more immersive than a TV, but I have yet to have first hand experience with the current tech so can't really comment on that. To be honest I'm not a huge fan of first person perspective anyway but am still eager to see the new experiences possible with VR.
Well not only that, but you could be physically together with people and enjoy this sort of thing as well. You wouldn't necessarily need to be, but it'd be fun to be able to stop and pick up and play whenever while together with friends. I can imagine having an extra VR shell or two in the home could become commonplace. Or people could bring theirs over.
It doesn't have to be this basement dweller experience people assume it will be.
AHA-Lambda
Member
Well that's hurt my hype tbh rather than reaffirmed it. Sounds a little scary at the endpoint.
greycolumbus
The success of others absolutely infuriates me.
The whole thing is worth reading. I get the sense he's giving out an "I told you so" before we all become plugged-in mounds of ad targeted flesh in one shared VR world. I guess I agree with him. The prospect of novel "experiences" seems more interesting to me than another MMORPG.
It's a poor comparison because they are not comparable mediums. One can facilitate a certain degree of social interaction and at even the platform level 99% of games do today, whereas books do not. In the broader discussion about the trajectory of the platform and gaming in general, VR has the potential not only to open social doors, but to close them at the development stage. Books are not changing.
This is an engineering problem anyways. Stick a set of cameras on the outside of the headset where eyes would be in conjunction with microphones on the unit and then its a matter of the implementation of a suspend feature to pause the game/software, switch to the video and audio feed and BAM, instant communication with those around you with one button press.There, now its more or less exactly like reading a book or watching a movie you need to turn down to carry on a conversation with someone.
Auto-Reply
Member
In the end... we are all alone!
I'm not thinking from that perspective, because that is so far away from what is currently being done.
Enhancing immersion comes at the cost of external accessibility. It's a continuum. Other parts on the axis are are (and I'm sure plenty of spouses would agree): playing singleplayer on the TV with 5.1 sound is nicer than playing multiplayer on PC with headphones and voice chat.
Outward facing cameras and pass-through video feed will come standard with Oculus DK1 I suspect and future VR headsets beyond that. I don't believe it will be part of Morpheus as Sony's probably aiming for that 'magical' $199 pricepoint (compared to Oculus likely $299 + stationary pc).
FloatingDivider
Member
I'm not specifically talking about external barriers, there's only a few of those with the most significant being location. I'm talking about mental hangups etc, I imagine having a VR enviroment where people can communicate without being weighed down by the facts of their particular reality would be liberating.
Getting shot in the head is also qualitatively different from other entertainment experiences. Doesn't mean I have an interest in it.
Nikodemos
Member
Frankly, I might be an outlier, but I find this whole "constant uninterrupted 24/7 socialisation" aspect of contemporary society quite displeasing. I'm slightly older than the GAF average, so I remember a time when letters were an acceptable 'socialisation' tool (not least because phone bills would murder your finances) and 'penpals' was still a thing. I'd welcome a return to a more segmented social interaction.
Sakura
Member
I don't really get it. MMORPGs are already anti-social, or at least anti-real world. Putting on a VR headset or not doesn't really make a difference in my opinion. And we say VR, but all it is is 3D video. It's not like you are really in the MMO world and control your character 1 to 1, experience the smells and feels etc. I don't really think there is anything to worry about.
Besides the real world is overrated anyway.
Besides the real world is overrated anyway.
More Fun To Compute
Member
I think that when printed books first came out they were seen as a bit more of a social experience because it was more normal for one person to read them out loud to another person. Not just to children.
But the basic type of argument goes back longer than the novel. Plato argued in the republic that poets should be expelled from the ideal state for reasons like that they corrupted people's view of reality and made them act like simple fictional characters.
But the basic type of argument goes back longer than the novel. Plato argued in the republic that poets should be expelled from the ideal state for reasons like that they corrupted people's view of reality and made them act like simple fictional characters.
Solutions are already in the works. Samsung's VR headset will have a 'see through' button to display real life when needed:
TitusGroan
Banned
It amazes me how people cannot work out how having a VR set strapped to your head is inherently anti social. '' Bu bu but TVs and books are anti social too'' No, they're not, and to.say the are is to misappropriate the term.
If I'm reading a book, and my flatmate asks me to give him a hand drying the dishes, I can put my book down and go help. If I'm playing videogames on a TV, and he needs some help pulling dinner out of the oven, I can pause it and go help in an instant. Those activities may be solitary, but they are not anti-social. VR, however, is. If the door knocks while I'm playing games in VR, I would be clueless. My head would be strapped to two monitors, my ears to a set of headphones. I am completely cut off from external communication, unless someone actually grabs me. Door buzzer rings, nothing I can do. Flat mate asks for help, nothing I can do. Oven timer goes off, nothing I can do. Washing needs to.be hung to dry, nothing I can do.
It is an inherently more anti.social form of entertainment, and no amount of 'online communities' will change that. Facebook is an online community, but we still call people who use it 24/7 and let their pets go.hungry anti.social bastards.
If I'm reading a book, and my flatmate asks me to give him a hand drying the dishes, I can put my book down and go help. If I'm playing videogames on a TV, and he needs some help pulling dinner out of the oven, I can pause it and go help in an instant. Those activities may be solitary, but they are not anti-social. VR, however, is. If the door knocks while I'm playing games in VR, I would be clueless. My head would be strapped to two monitors, my ears to a set of headphones. I am completely cut off from external communication, unless someone actually grabs me. Door buzzer rings, nothing I can do. Flat mate asks for help, nothing I can do. Oven timer goes off, nothing I can do. Washing needs to.be hung to dry, nothing I can do.
It is an inherently more anti.social form of entertainment, and no amount of 'online communities' will change that. Facebook is an online community, but we still call people who use it 24/7 and let their pets go.hungry anti.social bastards.
It was inevitable even before Facebook joined in.
Large scale, interactive social VR experiences(not just games) were always going to be a thing.
I think in the modern age, a lot of people just have a broader definition of what 'anti social' means.
There's also a lot of people who have a very limited view of what VR can be.
Yoda
Member
I don't really buy it's going to make games anymore inherently anti-social than they may otherwise already be or not be. If your playing a single-player game with your focus on the monitor until your done, what difference would it really make if you are wearing a VR headset? Worst comes to worse when you get interrupted or need to pause it just adds a few extra seconds to life the goggles off your eyes, but it doesn't change the fact the player will be fully focused on the game unless otherwise distracted. Even if you are playing a local co-op game with a friend and you both have headsets... it's not like you can't talk to eachother, you simply can't see eachother. How often do you really take your eyes off the screen to talk to your couch mate during such? Maybe a few minutes total over a couple hours of gaming? Seems to be reaching imo.
you should read the whole thing, it goes a bit further than just interactive social vr...
You're not alone, I feel the same way.
Point went over your head (and I think many in this thread). There's no doubt that VR interactions provide another form of communication, and a unique one at that. His point is fairly divorced from the technical aspects themselves, it's more about how these new communication experiences are shifting traditional ones and the potential ramifications that are already being felt as a result. VR can be a powerful social agent, for better or for worse.
FloatingDivider
Member
You can be socially engaged within the reality that you have strapped to your head? Also singleplayer games will still have pause buttons?
Sakura
Member
I don't get what you're saying.
If your room mate needs help drying the dishes while you are VRing, he can tap you on the shoulder, and you can pause it and take it off.
Your other arguments are no different from wearing headphones listening to music really. I put headphones on to listen to music and miss the door or phone or whatever all the time.
And why would you put the oven on and then go play VR lol... hell that doesn't even have anything to do with being social or not.
Every last one of those sensory issues you speak of can and will be mitigated or eliminated as the tech matures and iterates. There is nothing at all that your ears or eyes do while playing video games on tv that microphones or cameras cannot do even better. There is nothing 'inherent' in VR as a concept. It is whatever we design it to be.
eXistor
Member
How is the introduction of VR different from the introduction of home-consoles or, hell TV? I get the difference, but really, they're the same thing. Everything's cyclical, VR is just the next thing in line and in the end things will work out like they always do and then the next thing will get the next generation all up-in-arms.
Personally, I hate this socially connected crap and can't wait for it to take a step back, balance things out. Maybe VR can do that.
Personally, I hate this socially connected crap and can't wait for it to take a step back, balance things out. Maybe VR can do that.
Unless Im reading it wrong this guy isnt anti VR. Hes against the direction that VR is taking.
That doesnt make sense to me.
You're proving his point with these counter-examples, with respect to creating greater social friction.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
They're definitely less anti-social than VR. I can have a conversation while I read. With VR, audio is important for immersion. (which is the entire point of VR)
Muchi Muchi Pink
Member
Sounds like what Miyamoto said. And I kinda see it as well. I mean I don't see it being that bad in the end: But then looking at all the people just looking at their smartphones these days rather than talking to each other.... Oh well we will see.
E: I think a Holo Deck would be way less anti-social than VR Headsets as you can participate in that reality with more than one person.
E: I think a Holo Deck would be way less anti-social than VR Headsets as you can participate in that reality with more than one person.
Sakura
Member
How is it greater social friction? How is it any different than what we already have? If I am playing an MMO on my PC with headphones on, it is really no different than VR. So why is VR bad news? Why is it more anti-social?
And most of his 'examples' weren't about social any way. Missing the oven timer is not social friction.
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
I have to agree with him, that's my main gripe with the technology as well; I don't want to isolate myself from the real world, and I don't think that's any good for the wider society either, some highly specialized positive applications notwithstanding. I will have no part in it.
FloatingDivider
Member
I don't know. Think MMOs for example, while there are very social expieriences there also the ones that can have the biggest opposite effect. "Meeting" people through chat and teamspeak is not the same as meeting people in the actual world. I could see VR having negative effect on people especially kids. Immersion can work both ways.
A more thorough response:
I'd say that of all the hardcore Facebook addicts I know, they are very social people. Yes, they'll be on Facebook with their phones while they're out all the time, but they are at least out. And they are at least putting in a lot of effort to keep in touch with people(being social, in other words).
In terms of the isolation that VR offers, if a friend needs help, they can tap you on the shoulder. That's pretty simple. Things like buzzer rings or an oven timer going off - obviously don't strap a VR headset on when you've got food coming out soon. But it also wont be impossible to have a viewable clock to keep track of time. You could even have software that allows you to set timers that give you pop-up notices. Door bell rings are more difficult, but also not an impossible thing to figure out. And chances are, most door bell rings aren't going to be pertinent to go and answer. Either way, neither of these examples make one more 'anti-social'. If its a friend at the door, then they can call you(which they probably already have and its why they're coming over). Have your phone on vibrate in your pocket, its not difficult. Just like if you were in a library or a meeting or something. And if its mobile VR, again, you could have a pop-up on the screen when you get an incoming call/text.
Most of this is solvable or basic common sense stuff. Its overdramatizing the implications.
Muchi Muchi Pink
Member
He means people in the same room though.
FloatingDivider
Member
You're wearing the internet on your head and you'd try to feel the phone vibrate? That seems like the most ghetto solution, the call would probably redirect to the VR headset if it's in use.
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
Didn't miyamoto share the same concerns and was ridiculed immensely?
Yoda
Member
How are you isolating yourself from the world? It isn't any different from playing a game on a 2D panel outside of the fact it will cover more of your vision. Is wearing headphones isolating yourself from the world because it will block your ears from receiving sound? It's no different in this case, simply a different sense being more fully utilized for said entertainment/other applications.
toddhunter
Member
He kind of sounds like he is leaving Valve and trying to get a job at EA.
Why not? We're talking about the end game of VR here after all. And for the most part, if you can hear people you're going to be aware of their presence irrespective of your immersion - your mind can handle the logical disjunct of their presence in the real world and your immersion in a virtual world.
Setting that aside, immersion and external accessibility aren't rival on the same axis.
In your own statement - the single player with 5.1 is a better immersive experience than MP - but you're more accessible nonetheless (can pause, can hear people outside of the game). In VR, it's within the realms of possibility (at some future point) to have camera pass through that allows you to see and interact with the outside world with the headset on, as well as audio passthrough and automatic external party detection (via kinect style tech that can recognize the presence of people). And future VR tech will be more immersive than current devkit technology.
And there are plenty more technological solutions for accessibility in VR - external notifications sent to the headset, internet of things webcam/security camera sending you video feed when it picks up on movement at your door, etc.
Moreover, even if you're in the same room, your experience can be enhanced in VR; teleporting you visual-spatially to another place with things to do and see together - and you can still freely interact and talk.
Having said that... if there is a reason for skepticism, it's in identifying the issues that may crop up in the future - that might not otherwise become apparent until real case usage - which then allows you to solve them before hand, in turn positively improving the trajectory and adoption of the technology.
Burgess_101
Member
As with everything, in moderation its fine.
Mind you what is wrong with being asocial anyway?
Mind you what is wrong with being asocial anyway?
It's sad when people discount the sociability of anything except face to face interaction. It's like an inability to adapt to modern social reality. That's gonna make you really feel left out of the loop.
This is really such an absurd and caustic strawman. I'd expect more from you Deadman.
Ok yea, read it, and see what you're saying.
He also says that it was inevitable no matter which major player joined in, though.
Well eventually yes, and with mobile VR, obviously. But in the beginning, with VR running of consoles and PC's, there's not any good way to do this. So yea, having your phone on vibrate(a feature tons of people use still) is a way to solve this problem.
Come on man the whole point of VR is that its so immersive that it makes you feel like youre in another world. It stands to reason that it would also result in separating you from the real world, more so than other forms of entertainment. No way around it really.. whether it will actually be an 'issue' who knows..
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