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[faridmon]

WTF?

The only thing that is more shocking than this whole story is actually people calling Infinite was absolute shite. It may not have resonate with you personally, but the hyperbole on this thread.

Sad to see the whole studio go like that, hopefully the ones that got laid off find their next employees soon enough.

 

[EatinOlives]

Explain how he had a moral obilgation to make career choices to suit them rather than himself.

If your departure from a team directly results in the layoffs of dozens and you do it anyway for your benefit only, that's selfishness, pure and simple.

Though that's not to say that's exactly what Levine did. 2K wouldn't ever disband a part of their business on the whim of a single person, even if that person is a visionary director of that studio.

 

[ANDS]

Next time the Executives at Walmart want to keep the minimum wage low and lay off employees make sure you remember that.

Let's pretend for a second that I agree with your sentiment of Wally-Mart, the two situations aren't even close to being similar. An executive at WalMart is under no obligation to stay with the company, and it's unlikely that their exit would lead to the scuttling of the entire company (or even a store with the departure of a manager). Levine - who is essentially Irrational as far as Take-Two is concerned - essentially has no need for Irrational if Levine isn't interested in moving forward with the studio.

To suggest he has to continue working in a business model that he isn't interested in anymore in order for other people to continue working is beyond asinine.

The needs of the many come before the needs of the few.

I can't tell if you're being serious at this point. At best Levine/TT has an ethical responsibility to do everything in their power to ensure those individuals not continuing on with Levine had as smooth a transition into continued work as possible. That doesn't mean guaranteed jobs or keeping the studio open without Levine at the head. It means job fairs, glowing recommendations, etc. Which they are doing.

 

[Jacksonlee]

How can anyone like this?

Btw: I don't expect anything from his next game. 15 people? Download only? Yeah sure....

i figture it'd like much like thatgamecompany.

tbh, infinite was a dissapointment storywise; and im all for the narrative :/

if levine doesnt care about bioshock, nothing good will come of the next game.

 

[Curufinwe]

God damn. I wish you lost your job in a similar situation. I would love to see you attempt to hold the same notion you do now from your computer chair.

The man was the creative lead of an entire studio. He was the boss of hundreds of employees and he made the decision to take his ball and go home--sending a fuckton of people into no-man's land with no job.

I have been laid off before, thanks very much.

Its fucking ridiculous that anyone thinks Levine was morally bound to remain the head of a giant studio churning out AAA Bioshock games in perpetuity.

 

[The Flash]

BioShock Infinite was an amazing game and I am thankful that I got to play it. Best wishes to everyone who got laid off.

 

[Cerato]

What we know:

- Irrational Games is getting shuttered
- Ken Levine is starting a new, smaller team at 2K
- The laid off Irrational Games employees are getting taken care of better than any laid off employees I've ever heard of in the games industry

What we don't know is the order in which these things happened. Is it

A) Ken Levine decided to do something different, and lay everyone off and start a new team, while staying at 2K?

B) 2K decided to lay everyone off, Ken Levine was going to leave, 2K got him to stay by taking exceptional care of the people they let go

I have a feeling it's B. I think the layoffs were going to happen no matter what, and the exceptional care we're seeing is a stipulation of Levine staying at 2K.

 

[Curufinwe]

Explain how these things are mutually exclusive.

He didn't want to make AAA games that required a 200 team studio anymore.

 

[Nihilistic Monk]

Take two employed those people, not Levine. Studio founders are not obligated to keep the studio open till they die.

We'll have to agree to disagree sadly.

I note you just keep pushing the same point that is essentially that he should only look out for himself. It boggles my mind that you think someone in a position of management who founded his own studio should just essentially say "bad luck" to his team whilst securing his own position.

I'd like to think if I was in that position I'd put a fair bit more consideration into my decision to break out and how it'd effect my workforce & I find the way he's handled this rather sad.

 

[Bony Manifesto]

The real world runs on self-interest, like it or not, and it always will.

You might be right, but there is a certain amount of irony in this whole thing playing out like some modern-day Ayn Rand novel, with Levine being the heroic protagonist.

 

[rashbeep]

He didn't want to make AAA games that required a 200 team studio anymore.

It might not have even been him, could've been the publisher.

 

[Night_Trekker]

I have been laid off before, thanks very much.

Its fucking ridiculous that anyone thinks Levine was morally bound to remain the head of a giant studio churning out AAA Bioshock games in perpetuity.

There are a LOT of people who believe having a job is a right. Delusional people, but a lot of them.

 

[foxtrot3d]

We'll have to agree to disagree sadly.

I note you just keep pushing the same point that is essentially that he should only look out for himself. It boggles my mind that you think someone in a position of management who founded his own studio should just essentially say "bad luck" to his team whilst securing his own position.

I'd like to think if I was in that position I'd put a fair bit more consideration into my decision to break out and how it'd effect my workforce & I find the way he's handled this rather sad.

Again, sorry this is business. It's not his responsibility to keep a 200+ man team around and working especially if he doesn't want to work in that kind of environment anymore. The employees are being well taken care of but I don't really care about where they go, I care about what Ken Levine and his core team are doing. I swear it sounds like some of you people have never had a job before.

 

[KHarvey16]

To me it comes down to whether or not Irrational would have remained if Levine didn't create this new studio. If it was a decision between laying everyone off or laying almost everyone off and creating a studio within 2K with 15 employees, ok fine. I would defend that decision. I wouldn't defend a decision that was simply him leaving to go do something else for whatever reason. I don't know that I would go too crazy actively railing against it since it is ultimately a valid decision to pursue your own creative interests, but I personally couldn't sleep at night having done that.

 

[soultron]

Btw: I don't expect anything from his next game. 15 people? Download only? Yeah sure....

Small amounts of very senior staff are typically the only people on games during preconception phases. Levine's team can (and probably will) add more staff once they've locked down what their game is going to be, what tech it will use, and so forth.

 

[StreetsAhead]

Its fucking ridiculous that anyone thinks Levine was morally bound to remain the head of a giant studio churning out AAA Bioshock games in perpetuity.

Where has anyone said he had to 'churn' out Bioshock games? Why couldn't he have made new IP? Or lots of smaller games? He also wasn't morally obliged to stay at Irrational, either.

Now, it may have been Take Two's decision initially, who knows.

 

[EvaristeG]

Again, sorry this is business. It's not his responsibility to keep a 200+ man team around and working especially if he doesn't want to work in that kind of environment anymore. The employees are being well taken care of but I don't really care about where they go, I care about what Ken Levine and his core team are doing. I swear it sounds like some of you people have never had a job before.

Wow. Just wow.

Can't believe people are actually defending him.

 

[Curufinwe]

We'll have to agree to disagree sadly.

I note you just keep pushing the same point that is essentially that he should only look out for himself. It boggles my mind that you think someone in a position of management who founded his own studio should just essentially say "bad luck" to his team whilst securing his own position.

I'd like to think if I was in that position I'd put a fair bit more consideration into my decision to break out and how it'd effect my workforce & I find the way he's handled this rather sad.

Nothing but Levine committing to making another AAA Bioshock game would keep all those employees employed. All of those employees by the way, would have been free to leave at any time if they got a better offer anywhere else. But you think Levine owes them all the next three years of his life working 80-100 hour weeks on a project his heart isnt in as a matter of right.

It's a ridiculous position to take.

 

[Armaros]

Where has anyone said he had to 'churn' out Bioshock games? Why couldn't he have made new IP? Or lots of smaller games? He also wasn't morally obliged to stay at Irrational, either.

Now, it may have been Take Two's decision initially, who knows.

Take two was going to write paychecks for 200+ people to make a small indie game?

 

[soultron]

Wow. Just wow.

Can't believe people are actually defending him.

Nobody knows if shuttering Irrational was his decision, so is it right to attack him without proper information?

Nirolak has spelled out what was probably the writing on the wall very early in the thread.

 

[SoraanTribal]

What makes people think Levine is to blame for the studio shutting down? I don't think he even has the power to fire/hire anyone - he's just the co-founder and creative director for the studio. The actual studio is owned by Take Two, and any business decisions would be made by them, correct? And I seriously doubt Take Two shut down the studio because Levine wanted out - if I had to guess, they were planning on shutting down the studio long ago. Even if Levine leaving was what spurred Take Two into shutting down IG (very unlikely imo), that's not really Levine's fault. Should someone stay at a job they hate forever just so it'll save jobs? I mean, it might sound like an asshole thing to do, but if I'm unhappy with my job, I'd quit (and you would, too).

 

[KageMaru]

Can't believe this happened. I loved Bioshock and infinite. Hopefully everyone lands on their feet.

 

[Nihilistic Monk]

Again, sorry this is business. It's not his responsibility to keep a 200+ man team around and working especially if he doesn't want to work in that kind of environment anymore. The employees are being well taken care of but I don't really care about where they go, I care about what Ken Levine and his core team are doing. I swear it sounds like some of you people have never had a job before.

I wouldn't call being let go with zero notice being "well taken care of". But Hey, you can sure come in and still sit at your desk!

There's a difference between him wanting to move onto an new startup and venturing forth, with take two making a decision with what they bought, compared to the statement that essentially says he wanted to move on, but he got money hatted, decided to stay with the publisher and bollocks to to enterprise he's built up.

 

[StreetsAhead]

Take two was going to write paychecks for 200+ people to make a small indie game?

You'll note I said 'lots' of smaller games and not one. Again, I'm not saying it's a good idea, necessarily, but I feel like the situation is likely more complex than 'fire 185 people and close studio' and 'keep making AAA Bioshock games until Ken Levine dies', as some posters are painting it.

 

[The perfect Dark]

Small amounts of very senior staff are typically the only people on games during preconception phases. Levine's team can (and probably will) add more staff once they've locked down what their game is going to be, what tech it will use, and so forth.

Then his decision to leave and shut down the studio doens't make sense. If he doesn't want to make another Bioshock game (or similar game) ....it's fine. But Irrational Games is a great (if not one of the best) developer in the gaming industry. This is just ridiculous. I'm still shocked

 

[prateeko]

Unexpected and disappointing. Surprised Levine hadn't groomed someone to take over and then departed. Must've been a unique situation to end like this...

 

[overcast]

This is terrible for everyone involved :\

We don't know who's decision it was to close irrational, so I wouldn't blame Ken quite yet. I'm sure sales had something to do with all of this.

Jesus, where does Bioshock even go from here? I loved every bit of Infinite, but maybe they should can the series.

 

[molnizzle]

Wow. Just wow.

Can't believe people are actually defending him.

I can't believe people aren't. Ken Levine wanted to move on and Take Two obviously didn't give a shit about an Irrational Games without him. What was he supposed to do? Continuing doing something he no longer wished to do because there were other employees working for him? Give me a break. Those other employees will find other jobs and get on with their lives.

 

[Curufinwe]

What makes people think Levine is to blame for the studio shutting down? I don't think he even has the power to fire/hire anyone - he's just the co-founder and creative director for the studio. The actual studio is owned by Take Two, and any business decisions would be made by them, correct? And I seriously doubt Take Two shut down the studio because Levine wanted out - if I had to guess, they were planning on shutting down the studio long ago. Even if Levine leaving was what spurred Take Two into shutting down IG (very unlikely imo), that's not really Levine's fault. Should someone stay at a job they hate forever just so it'll save jobs? I mean, it might sound like an asshole thing to do, but if I'm unhappy with my job, I'd quit (and you would, too).

I think it's more likely that Irrational was a comparatively expensive studio that wasn't worth keeping open and fully staffed unless they were making massive hits. And as I said earlier, shooters with no multiplayer are very unlikely to sell more than five million copies.

 

[soultron]

Then his decision to leave and shut down the studio doens't make sense. If he doesn't want to make another Bioshock game (or similar game) ....it's fine. But Irrational Games is a great (if not one of the best) developer in the gaming industry. This is just ridiculous. I'm still shocked

If you don't have work for X people, you'll lose people to other studios no matter what. X being what, 200 staffers?

If you're focusing on a single/new IP and it's still in its early stages, you absolutely do not need X people. That's full production capacity for some studios, and Levine's current team isn't at that stage yet.

If you're working at a studio and there's no projects coming down the pipe after your current one, that tends to make you brace for impact/layoffs, in my experience.

 

[EvaristeG]

Nobody knows if shuttering Irrational was his decision, so is it right to attack him without proper information?

Nirolak has spelled out what was probably the writing on the wall very early in the thread.

Did you read the post I quoted ? I didn't know it wasn't confirmed it was his doing though. But the fact that there are people to defend him even if it was is really beyond me. Maybe it's a cultural thing.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

I think what happened is TT didn't want to increase pay at irrational and a nice easy way to hire cheaper labour is to start a new studio. Kevin levine just saved him self and i guess some people closer to him.

I think what happened is that Take-Two looked at what it cost to make Infinite, looked at how much money Infinite made and concluded "there's no way we're doing this again." Now, based on some of the stories coming out of Infinite's development, I don't think it's completely unfair to place some blame on Levine due to his management of Infinite's development. However, I don't think there's any scenario here where Levine could have played hardball or suggested a successor so that Irrational's staff would all still have their jobs.

 

[Nihilistic Monk]

Nothing but Levine committing to making another AAA Bioshock game would keep all those employees employed. All of those employees by the way, would have been free to leave at any time if they got a better offer anywhere else. But you think Levine owes them all the next three years of his life working 80-100 hour weeks on a project his heart isnt in as a matter of right.

It's a ridiculous position to take.

No. You're completely ignoring my point again. At no point have I said he should stay.

What stinks is Levine essentially saved his own position and publisher funding and just said "bollocks" to irrational and all he'd built up. He should have just left as a clean break. Instead he's used those people to build up his own hype within take two and now discarded them without a care.

You talk about "better offers" as if they didn't believe in what they were doing and were unhappy with their job. This has come out of the blue to them! They were content and this has blind sided them.

Lets just agree to disagree and move on.

 

[120v]

i've been taking the news pretty hard. i wrote like five paragraphs but i deleted it because everything i had to say has been said, pretty much

i will say, and not to make light of the layoffs, i hope 2K doesn't butcher Bioshock.... Infinite -- while no means perfect -- really opened up alot of possibilities of what a "Bioshock" game could be. it's probably the first series since Final Fantasy that could truly have a clean slate with each entry. i know at some point levine would move on but this is too soon imo

to me this is sort of like if Elder Scrolls, MGS, Fallout, or [insert your fav IP here] died

 

[Davis_McGee]

I wouldn't call being let go with zero notice being "well taken care of"...

How do you know they got zero notice? For one they'll have a notice period in their contracts. If they didn't well, then, that's their own fault for signing crap contracts, or not signing contracts, in either case they'd be well aware of the risk they're taking.

Please remember we're not talking about minimum wage drones here. We're talking about highly paid, experienced, world-class engineers, artists and producers. They're working in an industry where 25% attrition per annum is entirely normal. They're working in an industry where a "studio" being more than 50% temporary and/or external contractors is standard practice. They're well aware of the nature of their jobs and aren't exactly going to be queuing up for food stamps any time soon.

 

[Armaros]

You'll note I said 'lots' of smaller games and not one.

They are going to magically change from a company that makes games on a 4-5 year cycle to churning out muliple indie games at once.

Who is going to design the games? Kevin? Some how I doubt anyone could just magically that. How is each game going to be profitable?

Take two is not going to just allow random games to be made just to keep people employed.

You are literally hoping for the gaming equivalent of busy work.

 

[MikeXXIeaf]

I was under the impression Levine carried much of Bioshock's creative development. Either way I'm perfectly fine with Irrational not existing so long as he still makes games.

 

[doctorcdcs]

I still can't believe this happened. Hope the people affected land on their feet quickly.

 

[A-V-B]

They are going to magically change from a company that makes games on a 4-5 year cycle to churning out muliple indie games at once.

Who is going to design the games? Kevin? Some how I doubt anyone could just magically that. How is each game going to be profitable?

Take two is not going to just allow random games to be made just to keep people employed.

Which is why the next games are Candy Crush Rapture and Angry Birds Columbia.

 

[Curufinwe]

Keeping the 15 top people and staying with Take two does not stink at all. It's better for them and better for Levine. You might have preferred a clean break but that's totally irrelevant.

 

[beril]

What makes people think Levine is to blame for the studio shutting down? I don't think he even has the power to fire/hire anyone - he's just the co-founder and creative director for the studio. The actual studio is owned by Take Two, and any business decisions would be made by them, correct? And I seriously doubt Take Two shut down the studio because Levine wanted out - if I had to guess, they were planning on shutting down the studio long ago. Even if Levine leaving was what spurred Take Two into shutting down IG (very unlikely imo), that's not really Levine's fault. Should someone stay at a job they hate forever just so it'll save jobs? I mean, it might sound like an asshole thing to do, but if I'm unhappy with my job, I'd quit (and you would, too).

The problem is really with how he worded that press release, it's too bullshitty to be remotely true, but if taken at face value, he's basically saying that he wanted to do something different so he's firing 200 people in this talented and apparently successful studio, rather than just stepping down and letting some else take over. Obviously that can't be true, there has to be financial reasons behind it, but he still comes of as an asshole with that press release.

 

[Tesseract]

who's responsible for infinite's development hell?

 

[Jomjom]

The needs of the many come before the needs of the few.

Levine is a regular human being, not a freaking Vulcan or Mother Theresa.

 

[Valnen]

The real world runs on self-interest, like it or not

Then drop the pretense and call him out for being selfish like I am.

 

[Riposte]

Pitying people who got fired isn't really an interesting endeavor and rarely a useful one, so I'm not surprised if people would rather focus on the future (meaning, games).

Did BioShock Infinite have troubled or costly development? They were making that game for what felt like a very long time, which is odd given the type of game it was.

 

[ReturnOfTheRAT]

33 minutes by Giantbomb on Youtube - Let's Talk About Irrational Games Closing

Good commentary by Alex.

 

[Curufinwe]

Then drop the pretense and call him out for being selfish like I am.

Can I call you selfish for buying Videogames instead of donating that money to charity?

 

[Armaros]

Pitying people who got fired isn't really an interesting endeavor and rarely a useful one, so I'm not surprised if people would rather focus on the future (meaning, games).

Did BioShock Infinite have troubled or costly development? They were making that game for what felt like a very long time, which is odd given the type of game it was.

It was in development hell for 5-6 years and looks like it drastically changed mid production judging from the early videos.

 

[StreetsAhead]

They are going to magically change from a company that makes games on a 4-5 year cycle to churning out muliple indie games at once.

Who is going to design the games? Kevin? Some how I doubt anyone could just magically that. How is each game going to be profitable?

Take two is not going to just allow random games to be made just to keep people employed.

You are literally hoping for the gaming equivalent of busy work.

You missed my edit: I'm not saying it's a good idea, necessarily, but I feel like the situation is likely more complex than 'fire 185 people and close studio' and 'keep making AAA Bioshock games until Ken Levine dies', as some posters are painting it.

To add to that, they're effectively allowing Ken and 15 others to make that transition, but with one digital game. Maybe it won't be 'indie'. But they don't know right now if it will be profitable. Obviously, doing that with 200 people is on a whole other scale, I'm not pretending otherwise.

--
Could they have worked out a way to keep all/most people employed? Maybe. But they didn't for whatever reason. It's probably a complex situation we will never have full understanding of. It's shitty for the people who lost their jobs. I just think it's probably more complex than a lot of people (on both sides) are saying.

 

[BurnOutBrighter]

Again, sorry this is business. It's not his responsibility to keep a 200+ man team around and working especially if he doesn't want to work in that kind of environment anymore. The employees are being well taken care of but I don't really care about where they go, I care about what Ken Levine and his core team are doing. I swear it sounds like some of you people have never had a job before.

I agree with this. I assume the team at Irrational would have been contracted to complete the DLC for Infinite. The employees would have been fully aware that they would have no guaranteed job after that period.

Regardless, I doubt this was Ken's decision. 2K would have seen that Infinite was a commercial failure and were probably going to close or significantly downsize the studio.