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[Jarsonot]

Sure, but characters will all start with points in every stat. For example, if you choose a swordsman and decide to use no magic, you'll start out with a set number of points in sorcery, faith and attunement that are a complete waste. If respeccing can take these points and put them elsewhere it's a really powerful tool that nobody can ignore.

Good point. I suppose we'll have to wait and see how it works, but I still feel - even if this is the case, it's largely a non-issue.

If some min-maxing über dude, geared and ready to kill, invades me - I'm probably going to lose, regardless of whether or not he's got a few extra points in STR or whatever.

I don't want to get involved in all the back and forth on this issue, but I sort of think the people "outraged" about the respec are just doing it for show, or to be devil's advocates. With what little we know it's just going to be a non-issue in the grand scheme of things.

(I know that last paragraph will probably get the dander up on some of you - I apologize in advance, and yes you're right, I concede every point)

 

[Evolved1]

On a completely different topic... I was thinking about the armors and outfits from DS last night while at work not working.

I recall the first time I rolled magic and my sorceress stood up and I'm like wtf, why are you wearing an umbrella on your waist?

It was a disappointing moment, that the very cool concept art translated so poorly in-game for certain outfits. They really missed it with Sorcerer (especially), and to a lesser extent imo with the (feamle) Bandit and Warrior, when it came to the in-game models.

I think all of these outfits would have benefited from the cloth physics we're seeing in DSII. And I liked the original concepts a lot... would have loved to see them take another swing at them.

Edit: Also interesting to see how decent hairstyles really improve the look of the models in the concept art. And beards... where are the beards!?

 

[Roddslayer]

Dark Souls 2 |OT| Need Humanity

 

[Evolved1]

Dark Souls 2 |OT| Human EFF eh'GEEZ!

 

[Calibus]

Dark Souls II |OT| Prepare to Whine

Inorite? This is essentially what it's turned into. Yeesh, we need to let the game actually come out before bum rapping it.

 

[Wowbagger]

Do you anti-respec people have no love at all for the pvp side of the fanbase? After creating dozens of builds and spending hundreds, if not thousands, of hours playing the game, there comes a time when most people won't want to spend the five or 20 or whatever hours it would take to put together yet another variation of a build just for a few quick pvp sessions. Which is why soulsuck was popular in Demon's Souls and the bb glitch in Dark Souls, and why when the latter got fixed some people resorted to the extreme measure of installing custom firmware on their PS3s to export and edit their savefiles. Respeccing is a godsend to these people and a wonderful addition to the game, I say.

 

[Evolved1]

And for the record: DS Deprived loin cloths > DSII Deprived loin cloths.

There, now that's out of my system.

 

[H3avyM3tal]

Do you anti-respec people have no love at all for the pvp side of the fanbase? After creating dozens of builds and spending hundreds, if not thousands, of hours playing the game, there comes a time when most people won't want to spend the five or 20 or whatever hours it would take to put together yet another variation of a build just for a few quick pvp sessions. Hence why soulsuck was popular in Demon's Souls and the bb glitch in Dark Souls, and why when the latter got fixed some people resorted to the extreme measure of installing custom firmware on their PS3s to export and edit their savefile. Respeccing is a godsend to these people and a wonderful addition to the game, I say.

Anti respec guys care only for appearences. In dark souls respec is a boon, because builds are so varied. Its not d3, where you would end up using one thing because every other thing is useless.

 

[UnObtainium17]

Dark Souls II |OT| Pull the Ethernet cable in case of emergency.

 

[Vazra]

Spoiler

Dark Souls II |OT| Sex Change Coffins and Warps

 

[Jobbs]

Dark Souls II |OT| Pull the Ethernet cable in case of emergency.

Do you guys think "always invadeable" will mean much less people playing the game with internet hooked up and thus less asynchronous fun and jolly cooperation?

 

[LegendofLex]

Name me a single series that has attempted this and succeeded in pleasing both audiences.

There's a reason people tend to like Mega Man 2 better than Mega Man 1.
Or A Link to the Past better than the original Legend of Zelda.
Or Super Metroid better than the original Metroid.
Or Super Mario Bros. 3 better than the original Super Mario Bros. (Or, for that matter, World vs. SMB3.)

 

[Baraka in the White House]

Do you guys think "always invadeable" will mean much less people playing the game with internet hooked up and thus less asynchronous fun and jolly cooperation?

It depends. If the invasion priority system works as intended and the trolls don't somehow discover a build that enables them to dominate low level players then I think the online player base will remain robust in the years to come.

If the opposite pans out then expect the online community to get assy.

 

[Screaming Meat]

This breaks the illusion of the game. If we follow your logic to its conclusion, why shouldn't every game have a button mapped that instakills everything on the screen? Just choose not to use it.

What kind of point is that meant to be? That's not taking it to it's logical conclusion, that's taking it to an absurd extreme. I mean, just for starters, how is an instakill button remotely equivalent to the inclusion of a (and I quote) "very rare" respec item? Come on, man. That's not an argument based on logic, it's one based on hysteria! XD

Think of it this way, did you ever use The Master Key in DS? It allows to skip sizeable and tricky chunks of the game, after all.

 

[Bedlam]

What kind of point is that meant to be? That's not taking it to it's logical conclusion, that's taking it to an absurd extreme. I mean, just for starters, how is an instakill button remotely equivalent to the inclusion of a (and I quote) "very rare" respec item? Come on, man. That's not an argument based on logic, it's one based on hysteria! XD.

Not at all. It's an exaggerated but apt example to show that the "don't use it" advice is absolutely no solution. I'm not playing the game to fight some inner psychological battles. The game has to provide the rules framework, not me. Otherwise it won't work on a psychological level. It's mindblowing to me that some of you can't comprehend that. Psychology is an important part of game design. Unfortunately, that part got more and more neglected in the last decade where games increasingly became merely content tourism.

Anti respec guys care only for appearences. In dark souls respec is a boon, because builds are so varied. Its not d3, where you would end up using one thing because every other thing is useless.

You still don't understand a single thing of what I've written. I'm not wondering anymore. Your the tone of your posts fit the style of your name.

 

[xir]

Things I want:

A boss/enemy based on the assassin bug that wears its victims as armor. So, actual player corpses would adorn it.

If you beat Dark Souls, it reads your save data and your old character attacks you.

If you have multiple saves/characters, your other characters can invade as A.I.

 

[Mupod]

Do you guys think "always invadeable" will mean much less people playing the game with internet hooked up and thus less asynchronous fun and jolly cooperation?

I think giving people a reason to stay human while online will have a net positive effect on summon availability.

My biggest worry right now is what shape the PS3 servers are gonna be in for the first week.

 

[Uthred]

You still don't understand a single thing of what I've written. I'm not wondering anymore. Your the tone of your posts fit the style of your name.

Because if they understood your posts they would clearly agree with you because they are undeniable truth?

 

[Bedlam]

Because if they understood your posts they would clearly agree with you because they are undeniable truth?

Nope. You can disagree all you want but it's clear that this guy never even understood what my point was.

 

[soontroll]

Because if they understood your posts they would clearly agree with you because they are undeniable truth?

No, they would stop misrepresenting his argument.

 

[Adrelariel]

Things I want:

A boss/enemy based on the assassin bug that wears its victims as armor. So, actual player corpses would adorn it.

If you beat Dark Souls, it reads your save data and your old character attacks you.

If you have multiple saves/characters, your other characters can invade as A.I.

I so want to pitch those to From software for the next gen DarkSouls, i would be on board for everything, although the first one seems kinda impossible to do without massive bugs.

 

[krakov]

Because if they understood your posts they would clearly agree with you because they are undeniable truth?

I think the point here is that he is not trying to get everyone to agree with him, rather he is trying to state his opinion and explain why he feels this way. Obviously you are an entitled elitist if you worry about changes to the series.

I'm sceptical about some changes such as the respec option but right now I can't really pass judgement on it. I don't think it fits the game as a concept but they might have found a smart way to implement it, we'll see.

 

[Vazra]

Can we please save the aggro for the game bosses?

 

[xir]

I so want to pitch those to From software for the next gen DarkSouls, i would be on board for everything, although the first one seems kinda impossible to do without massive bugs.

Nah, think about being seeing the cursed corpses of other players and the more colored in 'ghosts' at the campfire. Wouldn't need to be EVERY corpse, just a few. but yeah, tell from to hire me.

 

[Fhtagn]

There's a bunch of stuff I sorta wish unlocked after beating NG+ (Or even NG+7) like a boss rush mode with character config. Heretical as that sounds; I'd really just like to try fighting Capra and O&S over and over again with different low level builds without the associated hassle; I can speed run to O&S in under two hours but that's still two hours I could be fighting O&S.

I am anti-easy/low cost respec but I think a once per cycle respec will make me more likely to make it through NG+7 in this game. I'm at NG++++ on one character and NG+++ on another, and have a bunch of NG+ chars too.

 

[Screaming Meat]

Not at all. It's an exaggerated but apt example to show that the "don't use it" advice is absolutely no solution. I'm not playing the game to fight some inner psychological battles. The game has to provide the rules framework, not me.

It's a genuinely terrible analogy that not only reduces the point to an absurdity, but relies on a completely false equivalency, so it isn't apt in the slightest.

In this instance, where the respeccing isn't an easily accessed menu option but rather a "very rare" item to be found in the game, the "don't use it" advice is absolutely a solution. If it were the other way round, I'd agree with you.

The fact we don't know how we find this item is of crucial importance: Is it a FFVII Knights of the Round Table Materia type deal, where you have to go to ridiculous, esoteric lengths to obtain it? Is it something you have to farm, which from what we've learned may be difficult with the limited enemy spawns, with the possibility of never finding it during a play through? Or is it simply an item to be found in the world? Who knows? I shan't be getting my panties in a twist about it until I do.

 

[Triangulate]

Not at all. It's an exaggerated but apt example to show that the "don't use it" advice is absolutely no solution. I'm not playing the game to fight some inner psychological battles. The game has to provide the rules framework, not me. Otherwise it won't work on a psychological level. It's mindblowing to me that some of you can't comprehend that. Psychology is an important part of game design. Unfortunately, that part got more and more neglected in the last decade where games increasingly became merely content tourism.

The "don't use it" advice is absolutely a solution; just not for you. It's not that no one understands, it's that they don't agree with you.

The difference here is that you need a third party to validate your choices. By choosing just not to respec, your character should feel just as permanent to you (because that's YOUR choice), but you require an outside source to limit your options for you (and everyone else) in order to give your choices meaning and consequence. Some of us don't agree with that type of thinking, and don't feel the need to deprive others of options because we can't win some psychological battle in our own minds.

 

[H3avyM3tal]

Not at all. It's an exaggerated but apt example to show that the "don't use it" advice is absolutely no solution. I'm not playing the game to fight some inner psychological battles. The game has to provide the rules framework, not me. Otherwise it won't work on a psychological level. It's mindblowing to me that some of you can't comprehend that. Psychology is an important part of game design. Unfortunately, that part got more and more neglected in the last decade where games increasingly became merely content tourism.


You still don't understand a single thing of what I've written. I'm not wondering anymore. Your the tone of your posts fit the style of your name.

Oh I understand very well.

You expect the developers to know your psyche. You expect the developers to think like you, that there is only one solution.

You fail at game design, my friend, and while I'm no designer myself, I can understand the concept of choice and the illusion of choice, and that relates to this issue you seem to insist to make game worse (or easier and meaningless).

Like I asked before: If you can tell me how it will deny me some feature that I had before, I will gladly agree with you.

And please remember that it isnt about you, but the game.

 

[Bedlam]

Oh I understand very well...

Reading the rest of your post, no you don't. Guys like you became conditioned by modern games, which basically lost the concept of actions having consequences and therefore also lost aspect of player agency feeling meaningful.

Spoiler

I've read many books on game-design theory for my masters thesis btw, spoiler so no one confuses it with bragging or something.

 

[Vazra]

Can you guys stop the arguing like you are doing now?

Spoiler

To not say bitching and moaning

You guys are acting pretty childish in here. You both guys are on the different side of the same coin. Learn some might agree with you and some wont and some wont ever agree with your point. I would like to believe we have some common sense and know when to stop posting on that matter and move to other things. It is toxic and it makes you guys look bad. Not like I really care if you guys wanna look bad in front of the forum and community but when you are pretty much going at it for days it gets annoying. No one is picking each others side on that argument and the best thing you guys can do is as I've been saying stop and move on.

 

[jimi_dini]

What bothers me is the potential for even more nonsense in the next Souls game if these "toned down" and "accessible" changes increase sales in any meaningful way.

That's exactly my line of thought as well.

They are changing the basics of the game and that's what I don't like. I'm concerned about the way they are going, not the current waypoint.

Dark Souls 2 - "rare" respec item -> Dark Souls 3 - "not so rare" respec item and so on. And in the end you will be able to respec at a bonfire whenever and how often you like. Plenty of arguments that defend the respec item would actually work for that as well - the arguments would actually make sense if that happened. And the other excuse "just don't do it" would also still work.

I mean if that's one of the "accessibility" changes and it works a bit (maybe a few hundreds of thousands more copies sold), then they will continue with that trend. As seen with plenty of other (ruined) games.

And no, "respecing" wasn't really possible in Demon's Souls. You could let a boss or a invader de-level you, but then you had to level up by using souls again - which means it sucked hard, especially on higher levels. I assume that in Dark Souls 2 the item won't work that way and that it will directly allow to change stats without having to pay for every changed stat.

 

[Vice]

That's exactly my line of thought as well.

They are changing the basics of the game and that's what I don't like. I'm concerned about the way they are going, not the current waypoint.

Dark Souls 2 - "rare" respec item -> Dark Souls 3 - "not so rare" respec item and so on. And in the end you will be able to respec at a bonfire whenever and how often you like. Plenty of arguments that defend the respec item would actually work for that as well - the arguments would actually make sense if that happened. And the other excuse "just don't do it" would also still work.

I mean if that's one of the "accessibility" changes and it works a bit (maybe a few hundreds of thousands more copies sold), then they will continue with that trend. As seen with plenty of other (ruined) games.

How is it much different than just starting a new character though. It just eliminates the grind, which after playing a Souls game for awhile building a new character is just that.

 

[Steez]

Dark Souls II |OT| Dark Souls 3 is going to suck

 

[RK9039]

Dark Souls II |OT| We are still talking about respecs.

 

[Toxi]

It's a bit early to be thinking about Dark Souls 3.

 

[Red Liquorice]

Dark Souls II |OT| Dark Souls 3 is going to suck

I lol'd.

I mean really guys we're predicting #3 is going to be shit even before we get our paws on #2?!

 

[Ventilaator]

Can you guys stop the arguing like you are doing now?

Spoiler

To not say bitching and moaning

You guys are acting pretty childish in here. You both guys are on the different side of the same coin. Learn some might agree with you and some wont and some wont ever agree with your point. I would like to believe we have some common sense and know when to stop posting on that matter and move to other things. It is toxic and it makes you guys look bad. Not like I really care if you guys wanna look bad in front of the forum and community but when you are pretty much going at it for days it gets annoying. No one is picking each others side on that argument and the best thing you guys can do is as I've been saying stop and move on.

Sure, but I can't really blame Bedlam for thinking that completely misunderstanding his point and attacking him with no basis in anything is worth defending against. There's no debate going on between Bedlam and H3avyM3tal, it's "Here's my position" versus "lol ok"

BUT THIS IS OFF TOPIC BACK TO DARK SOULS

That's exactly my line of thought as well.

They are changing the basics of the game and that's what I don't like. I'm concerned about the way they are going, not the current waypoint.

Dark Souls 2 - "rare" respec item -> Dark Souls 3 - "not so rare" respec item and so on.

That's exactly the problem here. Respec could be totally fine, or it could end up being a huge issue, as the people in this thread gifted with the ability to see further than their nose have concluded.

What I go back to is thinking how worried I was about Dark Souls 1 for several similiar reasons and how well that turned out in the end. On one hand there's an industry that makes it really easy to assume the worst, but on the other hand From deserves the benefit of the doubt.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

That's exactly my line of thought as well.

They are changing the basics of the game and that's what I don't like. I'm concerned about the way they are going, not the current waypoint.

Dark Souls 2 - "rare" respec item -> Dark Souls 3 - "not so rare" respec item and so on. And in the end you will be able to respec at a bonfire whenever and how often you like. Plenty of arguments that defend the respec item would actually work for that as well - the arguments would actually make sense if that happened. And the other excuse "just don't do it" would also still work.

I mean if that's one of the "accessibility" changes and it works a bit (maybe a few hundreds of thousands more copies sold), then they will continue with that trend. As seen with plenty of other (ruined) games.

And no, "respecing" wasn't really possible in Demon's Souls. You could let a boss or a invader de-level you, but then you had to level up by using souls again - which means it sucked hard, especially on higher levels. I assume that in Dark Souls 2 the item won't work that way and that it will directly allow to change stats without having to pay for every changed stat.

Yeah! Screw making it more accessible to a wider audience growing the franchise, lets keep it small and niche.

Getting tired of reading the same nonsense over and over again, you are acting like they are changing a core mechanic of the game, it's a simple RARE respec item, you don't have to use it.

I tried to get into Demon's and Dark Souls but it is pretty much impenetrable, I've tried multiple times and ended up uninstalling it every time.

 

[jimi_dini]

How is it much different than just starting a new character though. It just eliminates the grind, which after playing a Souls game for awhile building a new character is just that.

Like I already said before in this thread - this excuse is a terrible excuse.

All sorts of things in Souls could be considered grinding/time wasting. When you get killed by a boss, you also need to get through a bit of level again, there is no option to instantly retry. When you summoned people and get killed, you lose human form and can't instantly summon again. Oh noes, I have to get humanity to get back to human form, what a grind.

Yeah! Screw making it more accessible to a wider audience growing the franchise, lets keep it small and niche.

2.4 million sales isn't what I would call "small" nor "niche".
But if you want to convert this into a Skyrim clone, then go for it. I know that it will happen sooner or later. I simply won't buy it anymore. I just hope that it will take a few more games until that happens.

 

[Ventilaator]

I tried to get into Demon's and Dark Souls but it is pretty much impenetrable, I've tried multiple times and ended up uninstalling it every time.

Then move on and play something else instead of telling the people who do like it that they're wrong and the game should be changed so you'd like it better?

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

Then move on and play something else instead of telling the people who do like it that they're wrong and the game should be changed so you'd like it better?

I didn't make FROM do it, they know a lot more about how people play the game and the sales figures than I do, they deemed to make the game more accessible to more people.

2.4 million sales isn't what I would call "small" nor "niche".
But if you want to convert this into a Skyrim clone, then go for it. I know that it will happen sooner or later. I simply won't buy it anymore. I just hope that it will take a few more games until that happens.

Enough with the melodramatics, christ.

Everything I've seen about the game is that they are keeping it true to the first game while opening it up to more players. People are confusing "making it more accessible" with "making it easier".

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

Dark Souls II |OT| Prepare to Casual

 

[Toxi]

Yeah! Screw making it more accessible to a wider audience growing the franchise, lets keep it small and niche.

Getting tired of reading the same nonsense over and over again, you are acting like they are changing a core mechanic of the game, it's a simple RARE respec item, you don't have to use it.

I tried to get into Demon's and Dark Souls but it is pretty much impenetrable, I've tried multiple times and ended up uninstalling it every time.

If you aren't even into the games, why would you know anything about what a respec item entails? It's something that matters to PvP, not to newbies starting Dark Souls 2.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

If you aren't even into the games, why would you know anything about what a respec item entails? It's something that matters to PvP, not to newbies starting Dark Souls 2.

I am into the games, I love the lore I just found the games impenetrable for newbies, I am hoping that making the game more accessible means I will be able to enjoy the game.

I get why people are resistant to changing it but don't spite everyone else over a stupid, OPTIONAL, item.

 

[LegendofLex]

Getting stuck and being unable to progress is one thing. Enough people do SL1 runs that it's obvious this game was designed to be conquered through skill. As in any other RPG ever, grinding is a way to make up for any deficiencies in skill.

So if you're stuck, it's because you lack the skill needed to get through the game at your current power level - the solution is, of course, to muster up the difference in skill or continue fighting weaker foes to boost your power. And of course to grind effectively requires an appropriate measure of lower-level skill. In either of these cases, the game requires that you prove your skill to earn the right to progress.

Respeccing is a very different case. You've already done the work to boost your power - now you're merely deciding that you'd like to try a different approach to using your character. Deciding that "well, the player should be locked into whatever stats they already have" is really just arbitrary. The player being able to adapt his/her solution with the resources (in this case, soul level) he/she has already earned is perfectly appropriate within the "use your skills to progress" formula. There's really no reason to force the player to jump through additional hoops just for the sake of adding friction.

It's not as though respeccing suddenly turns a SL30 character into a SL60 character. The player still has to earn the right to whatever power level he/she has reached - only now the player has more freedom to allocate that power level as he/she sees fit. And it's not an unlimited capability, either - the player still has to manage the respecs by earning whatever item is required to perform it.

I don't see how this disrupts the merit-based progression system that's already in place. It's just another option available to players for advancing through the game.

And to say that this will negatively impact PvP is just laughable. You're either prepared for human opponents, or you're not.

 

[H3avyM3tal]

Reading the rest of your post, no you don't. Guys like you became conditioned by modern games, which basically lost the concept of actions having consequences and therefore also lost aspect of player agency feeling meaningful.

Spoiler

I've read many books on game-design theory for my masters thesis btw, spoiler so no one confuses it with bragging or something.

Your point is too general, and also archaic. Those books can't teach you the concept of change and evolution, and even their writers changed with the times. You, and many here as well, are also taking it too much ahead. We are talking about a limited respec option here, and you already fear for the next game? Seriously?

Is it about gaming in general, or about respec in Dark Souls 2? Which is keeping you up at night? If it is not about Dark Souls 2, than do make a new thread, and would be happy to entertain you there.

 

[Deified Data]

Off-topic: A Skyrim clone done by From would be simply amazing.

 

[jimi_dini]

Enough with the melodramatics, christ.

I experienced too many of those cases with this industry to be melodramatic. I'm just realistic.

Everything I've seen about the game is that they are keeping it true to the first game while opening it up to more players. People are confusing "making it more accessible" with "making it easier".

but that's exactly the case. Warping around right from the start will make it easier. You call that more accessible, I call it making the game easier at the same time.

Managing to get to the Tomb Of Giants in Dark Souls 1 without having the ability to warp -> you had to get out of there by yourself, which was quite difficult, especially without a lamp. It happened to me, but in retrospect it was awesome. If Dark Souls 1 would have had warping right from the start, this difficult situation would not have happened to anyone.

I'm not complaining about that yet, but I see the path they are taking.

I tried to get into Demon's and Dark Souls but it is pretty much impenetrable, I've tried multiple times and ended up uninstalling it every time.

The only things that you really need is patience and the will to learn how to play it. There are no QTEs. You don't even need to be able to press buttons with perfect timing (like in Devil May Cry) to get through the game. Your reaction time may be shit, but it won't matter.

If you don't have the time or the will for that, then the games are the wrong choice for you. That's not elitist, but just the truth.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

Getting stuck and being unable to progress is one thing. Enough people do SL1 runs that it's obvious this game was designed to be conquered through skill. As in any other RPG ever, grinding is a way to make up for any deficiencies in skill.

So if you're stuck, it's because you lack the skill needed to get through the game at your current power level - the solution is, of course, to muster up the difference in skill or continue fighting weaker foes to boost your power. And of course to grind effectively requires an appropriate measure of lower-level skill. In either of these cases, the game requires that you prove your skill to earn the right to progress.

Respeccing is a very different case. You've already done the work to boost your power - now you're merely deciding that you'd like to try a different approach to using your character. Deciding that "well, the player should be locked into whatever stats they already have" is really just arbitrary. The player being able to adapt his/her solution with the resources (in this case, soul level) he/she has already earned is perfectly appropriate within the "use your skills to progress" formula.

It's not as though respeccing suddenly turns a SL30 character into a SL60 character. The player still has to earn the right to whatever power level he/she has reached - only now the player has more freedom to allocate that power level as he/she sees fit. And it's not an unlimited capability, either - the player still has to manage the respecs by earning whatever item is required to perform it.

I don't see how this disrupts the merit-based progression system that's already in place. It's just another option available to players for advancing through the game.

Thats because in other rpgs your damage output relies on your level. In Souls, only scaling weapons rely on levels for damage outputs. Elementals mean you can have high dmg output at low levels. Its not because DS requires more skill and less emphasis on grinding (titanite slab for instance).

 

[Deified Data]

Warping in DSII will be just like using the archstones from Demon's, wait and see. It makes too much sense to not be true. I'm not a fan of respec either but if there's one thing I'm sure From will get right it's warping.