Better tell all them folks who played the Beta to phone the police then because FROM must have broke into their house and swapped their PS3's for PC's. Not to mention all the people who played the preview builds on PS3 at events.
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#DarkSoulsDowngrade and #YOULIED \\ a.k.a You got some splainin' to do, Namco
- Thread starter Havel
- Start date
Better tell all them folks who played the Beta to phone the police then because FROM must have broke into their house and swapped their PS3's for PC's. Not to mention all the people who played the preview builds on PS3 at events.
lazer_bean
Member
when I look at those trailers I don't see why it couldn't be done on ps3.
That it can't be done by From on ps3 is a different thing.
When From insist the game will look great and I see those trailers, I have no reason to think that the end product on ps3 will be downgraded
DrROBschiz
Member
Even after the problems encountered during the network test?
1. The builds were specifically billed as running on PS3 hardware. I understand that games may have to be altered to run on low end hardware. But at least show your customers enough respect to be honest with them. The media released was intentionally deceptive.
2. It is entirely possible that the PC version was downgraded along with the console version. Namco isn't commenting on it.
Exactly. It's not like it was what fans demanded. They said "We improved the graphics", fans went "Aw, thanks" then now they say "Nevermind".
DrROBschiz
Member
Ok but its all conjecture
From what we are seeing on the ps3 version its clear that the limits of the hardware are at play unless we want to assume From is incompetent at optimization of the new engine on last gen consoles.... which could also be the case
Takamura-San
Member
That would be extremely silly to do. You can downgrade on the porting process, but downgrading the PC ver should be left to the user on settings.
Unless any of those graphical setting broke the game, I don't see any reason why this should happen.
But, I'm not a developer/coder so I could be very wrong.
Lalalandia
Member
Wow you really are contorting yourself like a pretzel to describe ways in which deceptive marketing can be blamed on viewers choosing to trust FROM. This is not EA, Activision or Ubisoft but a small developer who owes their success to a dedicated fan community that has chosen to abuse that trust by failing to openly communicate difficult design choices. A fan community that, while disappointed, would simply not have cared that much and bought the game anyway but FROM and Namco Bandai decided to take the low road of recycling 'target footage' as the product they were offering for sale.
Perhaps you're so cynical this stuff coming from FROM doesn't surprise you, it clearly has many others.
denshuu
Member
We're talking about the people who couldn't make Armored Core 5 run at above 20 frames per second on a PS3 two years ago. It's most likely the latter.
DrROBschiz
Member
You make a good point
Plus... they were pretty transparent about their lack of experience and ability with the PC version of Dark Souls
You think the recent viral success of the series is pushing them in this weird territory where they can no longer be transparent?
Obviously, but From has already done some stupid stuff in the name of platform parity.
A screenshot would clear this right up. Pretty crazy that they're not even bothering with that.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
So not only we got the most generic PR but also no new info on the PC version?
It was basically "we got a 92 on metacritic, so fuck you! looooolll"
It was basically "we got a 92 on metacritic, so fuck you! looooolll"
Yes, it makes you a fanboy. This is the course of events:
1- From show a first glimpse of DSII showcasing their new ilumination system, stressing how much effort they're putting into it and how essential it will be to the final experience.
2- They demo de game running on a PS3. It' a small downgrade from preview builds, but understandable. This demo is shown half a year before the game is released. No word on huge downgrades. If you know anythig about game developement, you'll understand that at this point From already knew they couldn't make the game run like that on the PS3 or Xbox360, so they created a demo within the limits, so people was led to believe the game would look like that. Again, six months from release, it's easy to think they were already working on downgrading the game, yet they showed a demo that made people think the game would look as previously advertised.
3- No word on a downgrade from the devs. It's undertandable, but I also understand why people go and break into houses. Being understandable doesn't justify anything. They knew their product wasn't meeting expectations, yet they said no word to benefit from their false advertising.
4- People complain and ask for an answer. Only answer is "I don't give a fuck, we did right". No word on the PC version. Either way, the PC version is downgraded and it's another scam, or the PC version is not downgraded and they want to maximize console profits before PC version launches. Choose your poison.
If you can't see why people are up to ams, then I wip for you, because you can't seem to understand why people defend their rights.
Takamura-San
Member
Now, do you think this was a Namco or a FROM decision?
lazer_bean
Member
I didn't get to try it and I don't know what all those problems actually were.
And, anyway, how is the general public supposed to know what problems From encountered during this network test ?
They can read the news, right ? but the thing is impressions I read on the beta were positive, if not for the fact that the reviewers were worried that the difficulty had been toned down.
would you have the same reaction if instead of a graphic downgrade, the difficulty had been toned down, if Dark Souls 2 was an easy, "accessible" game ?
Lalalandia
Member
Given that FROM self publish in Japan and they didn't tell JP gamers squat either I'm going to go with FROM or both.
Both. I don't think they wanted to scam from the start. They probably found themselves in a developement nightmare and, instead of being honest, they went the way they went.
I think the early demo with high quality assets was just a demo, built separately early in development, I think the rest of the game probably didn't look like that to begin with, I doubt the PC ver would look that much better because from those comparisons it would be 2 different games with different assets, there are no reasons for FROM to make 2 different games.
DrROBschiz
Member
Not a fanboy. Get bent
1 - Also Explicitly stated PC as lead development Platform
2 - From knew? Sources? Are you and insider and privy to the complete scope of development?
3 - This is the sticking point. They could have said something immediately after the results from the Network Test. Maybe they considered the changes small enough for it to fall within parity to its predecessors. Either way the lack of transparency as THIS point in development is where the divide should be. Personally while it would have been nice I find that the game performs and looks better than the games that came before it and within my expectations of the platform given that we also have a PC Version on the Horizon whose differences HAVE been marketed/stated as better.
4 - I would have preferred they had given a more upfront response but it seems their are new rules governing how they can address the public.. likely since the PC version has yet to release and they have a whole separate marketing push for that version.
No fanboy, ok. Sorry for that. Shoudln't have gone that way.
I'm no insider and I don't need to. After so many years, I can certainly tell you that such a downgrade doesn't happen sx months from release. You don't create a game and then, six months away from release realise the game doesn't work. PC was the lead platform, yes, but that doesn't mean PS3/360 versions were ports per se. It means that features are developed for PC first, then implemented to other platforms. This means FROM couldn't possibly ignore the game wasn't working on PS3/360 six moths from release.
Thus, why I think they demoed the PS3 footage knowing it would never look like that. It's certainly easy to believe that than what you propose: FROM realised the game couldn't work mere months before release and they made the downgrade in what, one, two months? I don't think so.
DrROBschiz
Member
Not sure we will know for sure
Still the game performs and looks as good if not better than its predecessors on the same platform.
That said they would have benefited by only marketing the PC version assuming it doesn't have the issues they ran into with the consoles.
I almost feel like this is a huge marketing blunder in this respect but maybe they were hoping no one would notice since its comparable to Dark Souls 1 in fidelity.
They did go out of their way to trumpet up the PC versions visual superiority in several articles and interviews.
knerlington
Banned
Exactly. Nothing in there that isn't. I see a lot of dumb comments regarding the system not having "support" for features such as ambient occlusion. It can and have been done.
Going to use God of War 3 and Ascension as an example. The scale, native 720p res + aa, high res textures, amazing effects and perfect performance during insanely hectic scenarios says it all.
DrROBschiz
Member
Comparing two different dev teams, working on separate engines, in separate enviroments is a bit unfair
Its clear that From's strengths like in its art designers (like many japanese devs coincidentally) and not in coding/optimization/performance.
Japanese Devs really seem to struggle across the board in this department.... actually AAA developers in general are hitting a lot of walls trying to get their high end HD 3D games running at a reasonable pace throughout the entire game...
I'm not sure I can fault them too much. The teams that do pull this off seem to be in the minority of the development community and have significant levels of talent/knowledge.
Doesn't excuse the lack of transparency though. At least for a good chunk of people. I personally dont see this as a huge conspiracy honestly
Garcia
Member
I'm starting to think we won't see any significant differences between both version of the game (Consoles/PC).
For those of us who have played it to completion it is pretty clear that such a behemoth bit their asses, which explains why they didn't have enough time to give it some polish. It is impossible for them to have 2 separate teams working on 2 different games; it is a huge world, almost twice as big as the original Dark Souls.
For those of us who have played it to completion it is pretty clear that such a behemoth bit their asses, which explains why they didn't have enough time to give it some polish. It is impossible for them to have 2 separate teams working on 2 different games; it is a huge world, almost twice as big as the original Dark Souls.
OldAsUrSock
Banned
God of War 3 does not let you control the camera most of the time. Thus, they only need to optimize for one viewpoint. The God of War series is also linear, while Dark Souls is not. It is not a fair comparison between these games. A more fair comparison is a game like Dragon's Dogma or the witcher 2.
How the fuck can you justify even trying to place responsibility of the consumer to keep up to date on how beta tests are? Why do you find it so incredibly important to not understand that if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, it just might be a duck? Trailers showcased graphics implied to be PS3 in their trailers.
You do realize what a slippery slope you're making? In your world, I can make Crysis 3, showcase the awesome graphics, and then give you Doom 2 modded to a Crysis story. Because it should've been obvious? Because it's subject to change? Your arguments reek.
EDIT: Just to make it clear, you're the problem here. Not because you don't have a problem with it, but because you're not allowing others to have a problem with it. If you can't see that there's no legal justification behind the bait and switch that's happened in this case, then you have no idea that you're basically allowing any dev to give you any quality product. Luckily, you're just a loudmouthed minority, but you're not a fanboy. You're just anti-consumerist. And that's way worse.
DarkoMaledictus
Tier Whore
Correction.. "it can't be done by FROM"...
DrROBschiz
Member
And you are incredibly spiteful.
And how am I the minority?
Also there is a semblance of scale here. Your statement is ridiculous that I would take the stance to accept a product of any quality.
Not the case at all. This isnt Crisis to Doom2 but your reaction seems to suggest such.
There is nothing wrong with fighting for consumer rights but this is shirking the border of crying wolf. I'm not saying this is the case here but the tone of the arguments seem to suggest a reaction on par to your extreme example.
We should pick our battles and handle each circumstances with the necessary weight each one deserves. Be more reasonable and less vitriolic if you want people to take your stance seriously.
I would have been furious had the game been of poor quality but they clearly delivered a product that is better or the same as what previous games delivered on the platform as well as promising to deliver a high fidelity experience on a platform that can deliver it.
Maybe we should better examine the scale and context of the deceptive marketing as a whole since the current evidence is fragmented and riddled with assumptions.
Such as demo builds being promised as being the final product for the platform.
Me? I avoided all media before it came out and picked it up and am enjoying immensely. Had already formed my opinion on the game after actually playing it before seeing any of these threads. Maybe that's why I could give a fuck about this downgrade?
I think From's response was safe and down to earth. Can't say anything and have it mean anything to a community that gripes without even playing the game.
PC players, lighting engine be damned, be ready for another great souls game. Cancel your preorders cause you should never pre order anything. Maybe Durante will update the non broken lighting system with a different and possibly better looking one? That's what I love about the pc platform.
I think From's response was safe and down to earth. Can't say anything and have it mean anything to a community that gripes without even playing the game.
PC players, lighting engine be damned, be ready for another great souls game. Cancel your preorders cause you should never pre order anything. Maybe Durante will update the non broken lighting system with a different and possibly better looking one? That's what I love about the pc platform.
I'm griping and I have the game and have played 35 hours of it. The graphics are bad. The downgrade is bad.
Just because you blinded yourself to media doesn't mean everyone else is wrong about what is going on here.
Garcia
Member
Except they didn't. The game I played was, technically speaking, crap. Fun to play, but complete crap.
You keep talking about assuming, when they are showing off PS3 builds. Where has a game ever gone through this many changes this close to release, while still being advertised as the former? This is just plain dishonesty.
Yes this industry sucks, but why are you allowing them to continue doing it? This is a point in time, where we can actually tell someone to stop, and you, along with others, want everyone to just take it, and accept that we were lied to and continue to be lied to. Just stop.
And you keep talking about how great the game is, when that is not the complaint. That's why people call you a fanboy, you keep changing the issue to suit your argument.
FairXchange
Member
Elaborate on how it was fun yet crap.
The game I played was fantastic and looked much better than the previous entries in the series.
We both know I've had my fair share of tech issues with the game as noted a couple pages ago. But I wouldn't go so far as to say that the game is complete crap. I'm having a blast playing it, is it as good on the whole for me as DkS1 (My personal favorite game of all time, followed closely by Final Fantasy Tactics)? No, but just barely. Certainly not "complete crap".
dragonfart28
Banned
I don't have a PC that would run this game at any comparable fidelity and I'm not going to run out to buy one.
I still have plenty of time to work through the original and wait for a price drop or get it used.
I'm not sorely disappointed, but the added value just isn't there for me right now.
Garcia
Member
I meant "technically" and I already edited that post for that matter. It performs like shit and it's pretty sad that I won't be going through a NG+ just because of how grating my first walkthrough experience was.
OK coming back to this, the framerate on my copy was actually fine. I did the fight by myself, but there were no major drops. It was mainly sub-30 like usual.
MMaRsu
Banned
It's not overblown AT ALL. There are still no official screenshots or video's out showing the current state of the game.
SCAMCO/FROM are scamming consumers left and right with false advertisements. How anyone can defend these marketing strategy's is honestly beyond me.
I am sure that FROM didn't do this on purpose, but SCAMCO is probably to blame.
Garcia
Member
I had 2 other guys summoned into my world when we got into the fog gate. They actually led me to the place and we won that battle fairly quickly. It was around the mid point (
when all those wheelies and regular skeletons get thrown in)
GOW does not gain any performance benefits from having a scripted camera (yes scripted is the correct term here, not fixed). This was the statement made by the guy who worked on the camera. http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1394584&postcount=1
Also you can back track or go visit previous areas in GOW games since they are all mostly interconnected like Dark Souls. If anything Dark Souls shares more with GOW in terms of level design than Witcher or Dragon's Dogma.
Despite the technical issues I've encountered, nothing has prevented me from clearing an area, defeating a boss, or hindering my ability to play the game. So nothing like the framerate drops in the console version of Blight Town or fighting the giant cats in Darkroot Forest.
I have to wonder, while having fun playing the game, did you constantly think to yourself, "Man, this is fun as hell but it sucks so bad because of _________ tech issue?" Because that doesn't sound very fun to me; in fact it sounds downright dreadful.
Yeah I haven't encountered anything like that yet *shrug*
Metroid-Squadron
Banned
Please, fucking Kameo has more advanced graphics than the TGS demo. The retail game barely looks like a PS2.5 game and the framerate sucks.
From has become a lying scum piece of shit. Fuck them.
As I asked previously, any agencies or organzations to which we can send complaints for false advertising?
CadetMahoney
Member
damn straight
pretty much. Why anyone would pay $60 for that is weird.
DrROBschiz
Member
The Damning video from April that was Apparently said to be running on PS3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykbT03r_9Zo
I dont buy it
Then you have mountains of Media previews and the Network test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWu_6o0XpK0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNlPl6Cfe7c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWGJN5vSdMY
Those all look close to retail to me
Man.... If the PC version doesn't deliver the goods...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykbT03r_9Zo
I dont buy it
Then you have mountains of Media previews and the Network test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWu_6o0XpK0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNlPl6Cfe7c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWGJN5vSdMY
Those all look close to retail to me
Man.... If the PC version doesn't deliver the goods...
The barrier to entry to building a computer is the lowest its ever been. You can buy a $150 GPU right now that outperforms the Xbox One, think about that for a second.
New GPUs that will be even more powerful are out in ~6 months.
From the steam page:
"Recommended:
OS: Windows 7 SP1
Processor: Intel® CoreTM i3 2100 3.10GHz or AMD® A8 3870K 3.0GHz
Memory: 4 GB RAM
Graphics: NVIDIA® GeForce® GTX 465 or higher, ATI Radeon HD 6870 or higher
DirectX: Version 9.0c
Network: Broadband Internet connection
Hard Drive: 14 GB available space
Sound Card: DirectX 9 sound device
Additional Notes: Controller support: Microsoft Xbox 360® Controller for Windows® (or equivalent) recommended"
Graphics: NVIDIA® GeForce® GTX 465 or higher, ATI Radeon HD 6870 or higher
I would be very surprised if the game dosent look a lot better on the PC.
Metroid-Squadron
Banned
And yet in one of those previews are the TGS areas shown at all, which makes comparisons impossible. All we could know from those videos is that the game was very unpolished.
This is why no one takes you people seriously. Lol.
Anyways the screens that FROM released look even worse than the actual game. Your issue is with Namco.
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