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The Dark Souls II Lore Thread of speculations, spoilers and headaches

I personally think that the "Duke" they're referring to with the Duke's Dear Freja is actually Aldia and not Seath. Seath was never a man, he was a dragon from jump street. Whereas the Duke that created Freja was clearly a human at one point by the dialogue and the small, not at all dragon-sized private study. Aldia was a Duke who did crazy experiments, it makes sense.
 

Cipher

Member
Also, the dragon corpse in freja's boss room who's memories you can enter to get the ancient dragon soul from what appears to be the aftermath of the battle depicted at the beginning of dark souls 1.

I thought that dragon was the Stone Dragon that's in Ash Lake in the first game. The destroyed trees looked similar to the ones you see there.
 

Dresden

Member
What do people think about the whole Pate/Creighton sidestory?

From what I've gathered, it seems like it truly is a misunderstanding. Other NPCs in Majula seem to imply that Creighton is a murderer from Mirrah, but once you acquire his armor you learn that it's not actually from Mirrah.

Creighton, however, seem to be completely fixated on Pate's ring, to the point of seeing the ring as proof of his identity as murderer. One of the first things Pate said was that he recently looted this ring from someone who entered the trap, so it is possible that Pate is actually telling the truth, that he found the ring recently.

In other words, I think that the dead NPC that Pate took the ring from might have been the true murderer. It's either that, or Pate simply lied about the ring and Pate is the murderer. I'd like to believe that he did not lie the first time we met him, as he has always been honest about there being traps and danger before the treasure.

They both have a key to the same cache, so they're probably brigands who had a falling out after Pate tried to off him. I think Creighton calls himself 'of Mirrah,' too.
 

demidar

Member
They both have a key to the same cache, so they're probably brigands who had a falling out after Pate tried to off him. I think Creighton calls himself 'of Mirrah,' too.

Reminds me, Pate's humble abode is booby trapped and he gives you the key. That's the action of an unscrupulous individual.
 

Ferr986

Member
Ornstein in DS1 was an illusion made by Gwyndolin and Old Dragonslayer is the real Ornstein now corrupted by the Abyss is the most popular theory

I find this hard to believe.

Ornstein in DS1 drops his souls (Gwynevere is an illusion, thus she doesnt drop her soul if killed).
If theres a fake Orsnetin, it should be his DS2 one.
 

Ferr986

Member
Maybe FROM made Super Smough the canon fight so that there isn't an Ornstein soul.


tumblr_lv77688jZA1qcbby3o1_250.gif
 

Prototype

Member
Ornstein is real in the 1st game from what I've gathered. What you fight in DS2 is just a husk more or less. Also, note his change from lightning to dark in Ds2.
 

Afrodium

Banned
I think that the Drangleic=Lordran concept has a lot of connotations for The Souls series that people are glossing over. It's pretty clear in the game that Drangleic exists in a different realm from the rest of the world. Characters often don't know how they even came to Drangleic, and the Fire Keeper at the beginning asks you if you've heard of the land and then says something like "of course you haven't, how could you?" Perhaps the biggest evidence that Drangleic is in some other dimension is that the players is seen entering it via a magical portal on the opening cinematic. It's assumed that all the NPCs you meet came to Drangleic the same way, and it explains why they're so confused as to how they got there. When someone says they hail from another city, such as Mirrah, theyre talking about places in the "real world" that are inaccessible from Drangleic - they exist in another plane of existence. If Drangleic is Lordran, then the same implications apply to the original Dark Souls and all of Lordran.

There's more to the curse than just hollowing, it also forces the undead to seek out a cursed land with many names. It has been called Lordran, Drangleic, and possibly even Boletaria. You could even say that this realm the Souls games all take place is Hell. It would certainly explain the brutal difficulty. If I could think of one game that it would be hell to live in, it would be a Souls game. Unlike the western interpretation of Hell or the afterlife or whatever you want to call it, the dead in the Souls universe creat kingdoms in this new realm, and the stories and politics of the cursed undead who make a pilgrimage to this land form the lore of the Souls games.
 

Luminous_Reaver

Neo Member
On Old Dragonslayer, my immediate impression was that Ornstein was jealous of (or concerned for) Artorias. (Depending on how you view their relationship.) Whatever the case may have been, after his duty to Gwyn was officially over due to the player's actions in Dark Souls, he followed in Artorias's footsteps and was similarly corrupted. What we see in the Cathedral of the Blue is the result. (A hollow who resembles Ornstein superficially, but doesn't know who he is or why he fights.)

As for as why he's there in that particular church, I'd say it's in part because it resembles a location which was significant to him.

As for why he's alive ages after DaS? ...Well, the Souls 'verse is made of weird wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff. The "ages" between DaS and DaS2 might not be as significant as many people make them out to be. DaS itself may have taken several ages to transpire when you add up the number of lifetimes which could have potentially been experienced by the Chosen Undead.
 

demidar

Member
Wouldn't it be hilarious if Straid said something like "I'm not unacquainted with kingdoms falling, one such kingdom was... Oh what was it called.... Bole... Hmm... It fell due to a fog spilling forth powerful demons. Their souls would create such magnificent spells!"
 

Opto

Banned
Dang. I'm curious as to where it is / who killed it / how the spider gets it.

Since everything was gray, I guessed that it happened after/during Gwyn's war against the dragons. It could be that after the beginning of the Age of Light and the subsequent kingdoms that rose and fell on Lordran, the dragon was just buried deeper and deeper until Aldia found it
 

Cocaloch

Member
I personally think that the "Duke" they're referring to with the Duke's Dear Freja is actually Aldia and not Seath. Seath was never a man, he was a dragon from jump street. Whereas the Duke that created Freja was clearly a human at one point by the dialogue and the small, not at all dragon-sized private study. Aldia was a Duke who did crazy experiments, it makes sense.

Your right that the duke is Human, but your wrong about being Aldia. The duke is the hallow that you kill after the fight. He's the duke of the mining town.
 

Finalow

Member
Ornstein in DS1 was an illusion made by Gwyndolin and Old Dragonslayer is the real Ornstein now corrupted by the Abyss is the most popular theory
I think that Ornstein in DkS1 is real, the one in this game is indeed corrupted by the Abyss and he's the same guy.

The ancient dragon that the players interact with is a giant pretending to be the ancient dragon.
I don't think it's a giant, probably a golem or something similar created by those Aldia/Vendrick experiments.
 
There's no sign that Creighton is Lucatiel's brother, yeah. I thought Creighton may have been Shieldless Lothian from Forossa that either has grown murderous during / after his rise to fame but didn't want to tarnish his reputation, or that he may have forgotten who he once was due to the curse (but still longed for battle). The former theory would've explained why he's wearing replica Mirrah knight armor as well as donning a helmet that conceals his face... but things don't really add up unfortunately. Looking through other item descriptions it is said that Shieldless Lothian died. I thought he himself had vanished as I recalled some disappearance in his background information, but it was his Dragonslayer Crescent Axe (the same type of weapon Creighton wields sans lightning) alone that was lost without a trace. Creighton also didn't use a shield when you see him fighting Pate. Maybe you could make the argument that he's still up and about under a different identity if he did get afflicted with the Undead curse given the above, but there's no lead to go on other than personal interpretation. Plus: you'd think someone may have been able to recognize Creighton's face underneath the helmet back when he was captured for his execution, should he have been Shieldless Lothian.

I do find it peculiar that Shieldless Lothian's gear is scattered all over the place though. His Dragonslayer Crescent Axe is in Shaded Woods, Gavlan sells his Ring of the Giants (with other RotG rings located elsewhere in the game) and the Stone Ring is in the possession of that cyclops ogre in Things Betwixt. Not sure if that lends more credibility to this theory, but it is what it is.
 

SargerusBR

I love Pokken!
Regarding the Ancient Dragon, i'm now more than convinced the one on Dragon Shrine is an impostor, mainly because of a line of dialogue from Shalquoir that heavily implies the Ancient Dragon is not what it seems to be.
 

Clevinger

Member
Are you seriously thinking this solely off the "of Mirrah" bit?

Because that's not how you do math. Or something.

Heh, sorta. My PS3 died halfway through the game and someone spoiled the main story to me anyway, so I'm reading and talking about the lore to pass the time until the PC version comes out. Apologies for my ignorance.
 
I'm sure it's been mentioned already, but one lore moment I really enjoyed was the Rotten. You enter the boss gate and you see him trying to build human shape statues, and then you realize he's the one that built all the poison spitting statues through the level.

The one he's trying to attatch the head to falls about and it angers him. Something about this cutscene really struck me, almost like he's trying to create life, trying to be human somehow, and failing over and over again.

Do we know anything more about that character?
 

SargerusBR

I love Pokken!
I'm sure it's been mentioned already, but one lore moment I really enjoyed was the Rotten. You enter the boss gate and you see him trying to build human shape statues, and then you realize he's the one that built all the poison spitting statues through the level.

The one he's trying to attatch the head to falls about and it angers him. Something about this cutscene really struck me, almost like he's trying to create life, trying to be human somehow, and failing over and over again.

Do we know anything more about that character?

Of the 4 Old Ones he's the most mysterious of them. His soul says:

The Rotten embraces all, in his sanctuary for
all things unwanted or tossed away.


In a away he reminds me of the Egg Shaped Apostle from Berserk

Nobody.jpg
 

Dresden

Member
So the whole game was just about my guy finding a good chair to sit in???

Player = the son
Vendrick = father figure*
The Throne of Want = womb**

kill the father
return to the womb
penis***

*rendered impotent*******
**Nashandra = cockblock
***penis = sword****
****phallic*****
*****what if I didn't use a sword?******
******it was probably phallic anyways
*******basically a fantasy where the son dreams of usurping his impotent overlord; see Vendy's limp swings as opposed to the player's firm, solid strokes********
********unless you used a greatsword, in which case it's probably just overcompensation
 
The Rotten is pretty much Legion from Castlevania (and probably many other such places).

As for Ornstein, I don't think it's really him. There are many animated armours walking around in this game. I think he's just a test placed there by the Blue Sentinels. Doesn't Targray say something like that? Or does he refer to having a token after doing coop? Either way it's strange that he would chill out just past the room where an ancient reincarnated super knight is hanging around. It seems that this entire building is completely under the control of the Blue Sentinels.
 

Leezard

Member
The Rotten is pretty much Legion from Castlevania (and probably many other such places).

As for Ornstein, I don't think it's really him. There are many animated armours walking around in this game. I think he's just a test placed there by the Blue Sentinels. Doesn't Targray say something like that? Or does he refer to having a token after doing coop? Either way it's strange that he would chill out just past the room where an ancient reincarnated super knight is hanging around. It seems that this entire building is completely under the control of the Blue Sentinels.

It's for the token after doing coop. If you don't have a token, he won't let you join.
 

Jaeger

Member
So, the Throne Watcher and Defender are the chosen knights of Vendrick, now corrupted by the curse? Defending it despite Vendrick no longer being there.
 

demidar

Member
So, the Throne Watcher and Defender are the chosen knights of Vendrick, now corrupted by the curse? Defending it despite Vendrick no longer being there.

Well they enchant their weapons with dark, and Velstadt uses dark magic and enhances himself with dark. Does this mean they are corrupted by Nashandra (with Velstadt betraying Vendrick and sealing him up) or does dark not necessarily mean evil?
 

Jaeger

Member
I look at most of the beings in the Dark Souls games as victims. From the NPC's who are losing their memories; sanity. To the bosses themselves whom most of the time are in their respective areas, lost in their ways and pretty much minding their own buisness until we come around and attack them.

Hell, that's literally what happens with Vendrick, and a few others. They don't even pay you any mind until we, greedy little soul stealing pigmy, come hacking along and attacking them.

The curse of the undead makes victims, and not villians.

EDIT - And, wasn't Seath in the "The Duke's Archives"....
 

Zocano

Member
The ancient dragon that the players interact with is a giant pretending to be the ancient dragon.

Wellll, pretending is probably the wrong word.

Aldia did experiments on creatures. Vendrick got the power to create golems (from something he stole from the Giants?) and Aldia used that and created the Ancient Dragon. Are the Guardian Dragons separate creations or also made from the power of the Giants? I dunno. But I would say none of those are dragons at all. The dragons are still most likely all gone (or simply in hiding). Shanalotte is also Aldia's creation but she was raised by the dragons, and specifically the Ancient Dragon. The Ancient Dragon most likely plotted and raised her to help undead attempt to break the cycle (the cycle of what? the cycle of regeneration, the curse, what?).

The Dark (Nashandra/Manus) and the curse are clearly related. But how? Does the Dark spread the curse or are they one in the same? What is the throne? Why does The Dark want the throne and how could it break "the cycle"?
 

ixix

Exists in a perpetual state of Quantum Crotch Uncertainty.
Well they enchant their weapons with dark, and Velstadt uses dark magic and enhances himself with dark. Does this mean they are corrupted by Nashandra (with Velstadt betraying Vendrick and sealing him up) or does dark not necessarily mean evil?

The Watcher uses a magic enchantment and the Defender uses a lightning enchantment, same as the ones you can use if you make their respective greatswords from their souls. Don't think either one uses any form of dark attack.

According to the Sacred Chime Hammer Velstadt's darkness is from the time he's spent guarding Vendrick in the Undead Crypt; it's not something he had before he started his long watch over the Streaker Zombie King. It also specifies that the hammer hasn't lost its blessing, and that Velstadt "gave himself to the king in both life and death." It's pretty clear that he's not conspiring against Vendrick, in spite of the old fella's sorry state.

There's nothing to indicate that Nashandra's in control of any of them, really. Agdayne says that all the castle servants who have come looking for Vendrick have been killed by the king's men, which rather implies that Velstadt and all the Syan knights and such in the Crypt are protecting Naked Zombie Vendrick from Nashandra, and aren't in cahoots with her.

Remember, you're essentially Nashandra's minion at that point in the game; she wants into the Throne of Want, and you're her patsy trying to retrieve the King's Ring. The peeps who are presumably loyal to Vendrick, including Velstadt, the Looking Glass Knight, and the Watcher and Defender are trying to stop her and, by extension, you. Nashandra doesn't even try to enter the Throne of Want until after you've offed Vendrick's guardians; if you kill them before the Memory of Jeigh she'll have left the throne room and be waiting in the now-unguarded Throne of Want. If you do the Memory of Jeigh first she'll enter the fog door behind you after you've bumped off the Watcher and Defender. They're not guarding the throne for Nashandra, they're guarding it from her.
 

sixghost

Member
Is there any lore regarding what the Throne of Want actually is? I wonder if Drangleic Castle was built around it, or it was built by them.
 

sixghost

Member
or does dark not necessarily mean evil?
That's always been my feeling on it in these games. I think it's telling that the "good" ending of Dark Souls was allowing the flame to extinguish and usher in the Age of Dark. I think the concepts of Dark and Light are neutral in this universe, as the primary enemies of Dark Souls 1 and 2 were both arbiters of Light and Dark, respectively.
 

Vazra

irresponsible vagina leak
The Rotten is pretty much Legion from Castlevania (and probably many other such places).

As for Ornstein, I don't think it's really him. There are many animated armours walking around in this game. I think he's just a test placed there by the Blue Sentinels. Doesn't Targray say something like that? Or does he refer to having a token after doing coop? Either way it's strange that he would chill out just past the room where an ancient reincarnated super knight is hanging around. It seems that this entire building is completely under the control of the Blue Sentinels.

Probably that was just part of the test to enter the covenant. Not the real character but a husk representing him.
 
Who is very reminiscent of Astrea.

Its not hard to connect the dots of maiden and a knight protector, especially when they're in that area. If it was a different zone maybe it wouldn't be clear cut.
 

NeededSleep

Member
The ancient dragon that the players interact with is a giant pretending to be the ancient dragon.

*speculation and what I believe*

Ancient dragon was a creation from Aldea and possibly Seethe with the souls of giants. Which is what you receive after killing off the ancient dragon.

Aldea was at first helping his brother Vendrick try and rid the curse. They eventually figured dragons were immune to it or were resistant to it before they became extinct. At some point Vendrick and his brother have a falling out, not sure where the testings go from there. But im wondering if the tipping point was when thry created the ancient dragon and the curse remained.

Seethe is being seethe and wanted imortality that the other dragons had. Aldea and him try creating beings that can live long or are immune to the curse. Thus most of the conversations from the half scorpian man after "killing" his creator. But I think he mentions he cant be killed, he just takes another form.
 
EDIT - And, wasn't Seath in the "The Duke's Archives"....

Good point about Seath.

I mean, if you look at Brightstone Cove from afar, you see tons of crystals down in the valley, reminding me of crystal cave in Dark Souls 1, and when you get to the bottom, you defeat "Dear Duke's Freja", which immediately reminds me of the Duke's archives in Dark Souls 1, especially since it leads to a room with a library immediately afterwards, and a primordial bonfire.

In that cave you find a huge fossilized Dragon, perhaps a throwback to Seath. The great soul is not carried by the Dear Duke monster, but rather lying on the room in a puddle of strange energy seeping from the dragon. If you return later, you find that puddle has evolved into a crystal structure, once again a reminder of the immortality crystal Seath had, plus it reminds me of how in DS1, magic, crystals, dragons and immortality were said to be linked. You can enter that memory to see the fall of an ancient dragon, an image that could be a memory from Seath's own genocide of his own kind.

I'm getting the following vibe from this. It's a theory, but here ya go.

I get a feeling the primordial bonfires are the bonfires that spawned where you killed each of the ancient lords in Dark Souls 1. The bright-stone cove are would in that case be the remains of the crystal cave. Perhaps the iron keep was build over the burned remains of Lost Izalith, that would explain the lava at least. The gutter would be Nito's domain, whereas Lost Bastille might have been constructed on the remains of New Londo.

As for the new beings carring what appears like lordsouls, I think it goes with the cycle nature of things.

If I was to give an explaination, I would say the world in Dark Souls follows a repeating cycle. There is a period of Darkness, of timelessness, followed by the apparition of very powerful souls / fire. Fire creates contrasts, it creates time and space, cause without fire, there is only Dark, and dark is basically a void. In a world of darkness and everlasting dragons, there is no time, no contrast, no life or death, just immobility. Those that find the fire, and the lord souls associated with it use it to build empires, to create some sort of civilization, trying to kindle said fire and to keep it from burning out , but there are always forces that want the fire to extinguish, to establish an era of Dark. There are various factions or creatures with different agendas, the ancient dragons, who were once immortal and came from an era before fire, giants, who used to serve alongside the old gods in a past era, but were turned as enemies in recent times, beings from the abyss, that seem to want said abyss to spread and engulf the world. Finally, there's humanity, a strange conundrum. Humans seem to be both beings of light and dark, in the sense where, like fire, they need to consume something to stay lit, devouring souls or humanity fragments to retain the likeness of being normal, but still being cursed with immortality, ever reincarnating, but decaying and becoming hollow beings in the process. Humanity is a curse, because there's no end, no death, only gradual hollowing in time, while the cycle starts anew. Those that have the will to consume souls will last longer, perhaps even acquiring the souls to become a great lord, heck, they might even kindle and link the fires, keeping the age of Dark from swallowing the land, but in the end, the cycle will continue. Time will pass, the fire will slowly fade, traditions and kingdoms will fall. In a sense, I see humanity as fire. It can burn bright, but it can also burn out. Hence the curse, the hollowing, the need to feed yourself to avoid being hollow, the pilgrimage and the idea of kindling the fire.

I think the creation of fire changed the world. Fire created both light and dark after all. My guess is that dragons remember the time before light and dark even existed, where no such contrast existed. It's hard to figure their agenda, since I believe the advent of fire changed the world in a way that cannot be undone : Once there's fire, there's light and dark, and as such, Dragons have to choose between a world of fire or a world of darkness, they cannot go back to their world of timeless and lack of contrast . Some beings are attracted by Dark, beings like Manus, the Primordial Serpents and other beings emanating from the abyss try to bring an age of Dark, trying to mold the world into a place. The Pygmy/Manus/Najandra seem to be a faction of humanity that embraced the dark soul, that hollowing par of the primordial fire. In a sense, they want to see the fire extinguish, to become one with the dark, because to them, the true gift of humanity is the dark soul, that immortal state of being and the power of being part of the abyss.
 
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