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[Cloudy]

You could make this same critique against books or movies. Why are video games singled out?

Also women are mainly used as "background decoration" cos there is a big taboo about violence towards kids in media. When a large majority of the consumers are male, it seems obvious that the tropes would be geared up to get a reaction from that demographic.

BTW I think this whole project is dumb and the insane reactions to it even dumber.

 

[Brakke]

You could make this same critique against books or movies. Why are video games singled out?

You realize that every single university in the world has a department of people dedicated to doing this kind of critical reading of books, and most have one dedicated to this kind of critical reading of movies. And almost none has a department dedicated to critical readings of games.

Let's hold the volume of published criticism about books against the volume of non-product review criticism written about games, and think again about how games are singled out.

Virtually all of academia singles games out as "not worth our time". Here at last, someone at least tries to apply some rigor to the medium, and you cry "too much"?

 

[Cloudy]

Virtually all of academia singles games out as "not worth our time". Here at last, someone at least tries to apply some rigor to the medium, and you cry "too much"?

I didn't say it's too much. I said it's dumb.

 

[EdibleKnife]

I didn't say it's too much. I said it's dumb.

Why?

 

[Cloudy]

Why?

The reason for women as "background characters" is pretty obvious if you look at the demographics of people who make and play those types of games

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

You realize that every single university in the world has a department of people dedicated to doing this kind of critical reading of books, and most have one dedicated to this kind of critical reading of movies. And almost none has a department dedicated to critical readings of games.

Let's hold the volume of published criticism about books against the volume of non-product review criticism written about games, and think again about how games are singled out.

Virtually all of academia singles games out as "not worth our time". Here at last, someone at least tries to apply some rigor to the medium, and you cry "too much"?

I can't recall the last time I saw an academic treatment of sexism in literature or film that used Sarkeesian's ridiculous methodology.

 

[Brakke]

The reason for women as "background characters" is pretty obvious if you look at the demographics of people who make and play those types of games

Super sophisticated analysis. Why are the demographics that way in the first place? Why is that kind of pandering effective? Are there negative effects to this kind of pandering? Are those effects intense enough to outweigh their joys?

We don't get anywhere as people we don't ask "why" more than once.

I can't recall the last time I saw an academic treatment of sexism in literature or film that used Sarkeesian's ridiculous methodology.

Yes I know you're more concerned with depth than breadth. It's lame you think that makes her approach "ridiculous", but whatever. To the point here, if you won't even grant she's attempting some academic rigor, that means basically nobody's doing criticism about games: so they're absolutely not being subjected to a "stupid"-high level of scrutiny.

 

[The Technomancer]

I can't recall the last time I saw an academic treatment of sexism in literature or film that used Sarkeesian's ridiculous methodology.

Thats because literature and film don't have their proverbial fingers in their ears going "lalalalalala CANT HEAR YOU". I've tried engaging on a work by work critical basis before, when it comes to things like sexism and objectification, and the chorus every time is "but its just this one game why are you picking on this one thing, just go play something else"

Sarkeesian's path bas been a rocky one so far, but the one thing I think she had right right from the start is her decision to focus on a very large number of games and highlighting the way that tropes crop up across them. Its the only way to make it clear that no, this isn't just one or two games that people are getting pissy about

 

[Cloudy]

It's not like rape and violence against women aren't huge societal problems. Any game set in a "realistic" chaotic situation is probably going to touch on that subject. In fact, I was surprised it never really came up in TLoU.

Go read any news article on areas where there's no law and order. You won't get too far before you read about rapes and other abuse of women. Why is it "background decoration" to include that in games depicting messed-up situations?

Super sophisticated analysis. Why are the demographics that way in the first place? Why is that kind of pandering effective? Are there negative effects to this kind of pandering? Are those effects intense enough to outweigh their joys?

We don't get anywhere as people we don't ask "why" more than once.

I don't see it as "pandering" or a "joy". It's almost always used to elicit a negative reaction from the player. Women are the so-called fairer sex and violence against them is just different from violence against men.....especially from a male point of view. Not saying this is right or wrong but it's just the way it is.

 

[The Technomancer]

It's not like rape and violence against women aren't huge societal problems. Any game set in a "realistic" chaotic situation is obviously going to touch on that subject. In fact, I was surprised it never really came up in TLoU.

Go read any news article on areas where there's no law and order. You won't get too far before you read about rapes and other abuse of women. Why is it "background decoration" to include that in games depicting messed-up situattions?

Because the games so often lack women presented in other contexts, or else the rape/kidnapping context is the primary one. The problem is that the women who are being victimized "so that we see how evil the bad guys are" aren't actors, they're only acted upon. And yes, this can happen to "men victims" as well, the point of the video is to point out how prevalent it is to just use the victimization of women as shorthand for "this guy is evil"

 

[Cloudy]

Because the games so often lack women presented in other contexts, or else the rape/kidnapping context is the primary one. The problem is that the women who are being victimized "so that we see how evil the bad guys are" aren't actors, they're only acted upon. And yes, this can happen to "men victims" as well, the point of the video is to point out how prevalent it is to just use the victimization of women as shorthand for "this guy is evil"

Well if you look at the actual statistics on rapes and kidnaps (excluding children), I would bet it's over 80% female victims. Why would it be different in a videogame that is using that trope to evoke a certain reaction from a predominantly male audience?

 

[Brakke]

It's not like rape and violence against women aren't huge societal problems. Any game set in a "realistic" chaotic situation is probably going to touch on that subject. In fact, I was surprised it never really came up in TLoU.

Go read any news article on areas where there's no law and order. You won't get too far before you read about rapes and other abuse of women. Why is it "background decoration" to include that in games depicting messed-up situations?.

Well I think part of her angle is on why are games choosing to depict messed-up situations so much in the first place. Maybe brothels follow naturally from the setting... but maybe the setting follows naturally from a desire to have an excuse to include brothels for marketing/pandering/creative(?) reasons?

I don't see it as "pandering" or a "joy". It's almost always used to elicit a negative reaction from the player. Women are the so-called fairer sex and violence against them is just different from violence against men.....especially from a male point of view. Not saying this is right or wrong..it just is...

Hehe. "It just is" isn't terribly satisfying though, is it? Certainly doesn't settle an investigation for me.

 

[The Technomancer]

Well if you look at the actual statistics on rapes and kidnaps (excluding children), I would bet it's over 80% female victims. Why would it be different in a videogame?

You're still kind of missing the broad structural issue. These games don't tend to have other, more well rounded depictions of women. Nor do they have thoughtful, meaningful things to say about rape. The "trope" in this case is that if you show a woman getting raped then you know the bad guy is really bad. Its not really about the women, its just about whats being done to them

 

[Cloudy]

Well I think part of her angle is on why are games choosing to depict messed-up situations so much in the first place

And that is exactly why I think some people are so negative towards her and what she stands for. They feel feminism awareness in games is a slippery slope towards political correctness and censorship

Hehe. "It just is" isn't terribly satisfying though, is it? Certainly doesn't settle an investigation for me.

Fine. I think most men instinctively want to protect a vulnerable woman.

You're still kind of missing the broad structural issue. These games don't tend to have other, more well rounded depictions of women. Nor do they have thoughtful, meaningful things to say about rape. The "trope" in this case is that if you show a woman getting raped then you know the bad guy is really bad. Its not really about the women, its just about whats being done to them

I don't think most games have well-rounded depictions of men either. And what exactly is there that's meaningful to say about rape....especially in the context of a videogame?

 

[Brakke]

Well if you look at the actual statistics on rapes and kidnaps (excluding children), I would bet it's over 80% female victims. Why would it be different in a videogame that is using that trope to evoke a certain reaction from a predominantly male audience?

The audience thing though... Being herself a lady, don't you think she probably finds it frustrating that so many games so obviously and so aggressively target a male audience and in such a way that the games feels hostile toward what lady gamers there are?

Personally I have a several lady friends that played especially Nintendo games as kids and then transitioned away from them as they got older and tried to play more "mature" games but every time they picked one up were treated to a litany of violence charged in a way that made them feel unwelcome. The audience is predominately male because the games are predominately *for* men/boys?

Certainly, there's a vicious cycle going there, but it's not unbreakable. Whatever anyone's qualms about her academic rigor here, even if you just take these videos at face value as "here are things that made me as a woman feel bad and want to stop playing games", well I think that's pretty valuable feedback. Plenty of developers think so, too. I'm sure developers would rather live in a world where more women were into the kind of games they make. It'd make dating easier. It'd make selling games easier, too, if you could double your addressable market.

 

[The Technomancer]

I don't think most games have well-rounded depictions of men either. And what exactly is there that's meaningful to say about rape?

Compared to women? Most games absolutely do. Villains with motivation. Mentor characters with advice to give. Hell, even the grunts shooting at you are actually doing something that you have to engage with, being more than just ornamentation to set the tone.

 

[Cloudy]

The "trope" in this case is that if you show a woman getting raped then you know the bad guy is really bad. Its not really about the women, its just about whats being done to them

And? Seems like that's the point

That is my exact reaction to her gaming videos

 

[The Technomancer]

And? Seems like that's the point

That is my exact reaction to her gaming videos

And thats objectifying. The women exist only as objects to be acted on, not characters in any other regard. They don't even do anything, they're, wait for it, background decoration.

 

[Cloudy]

And thats objectifying. The women exist only as objects to be acted on, not characters in any other regard. They don't even do anything, they're, wait for it, background decoration.

I'm sure there are male side characters in all those games that had awful things happen to them as well..

Again, victims of rape are usually women. Should we ban rape/abuse of women from games? Seems like that's what she'd prefer. Many people would disagree with that type of censorship.

 

[EdibleKnife]

And? Seems like that's the point

That is my exact reaction to her gaming videos

In the grander scheme of things this is an issue because the roles of women are vastly underwritten and underrepresented. To have only a few worthwhile representations of women within the medium while the rest are simply moments that use women as props to drive males forward is problematic because not only is it done with little tact, but because it reduces a majority of the roles of females to the place of the victims with little agency in the events of the story.

 

[smokeandmirrors]

You know, I may have been part of the problem but I never really noticed some of the stuff she pointed out in this video but a lot of it is pretty gross, including the whole God of War III thing.

 

[Brakke]

I'm sure there are male side characters in all those games that had awful things happen to them as well..

Again, victims of rape are usually women. Should we ban rape/abuse of women from games? Seems like that's what she'd prefer.

Always the censorship. We can fix problems without censorship. America and Switzerland are two Western nations with notably high rates of gun ownership, but Switzerland experiences very little gun violence and America very much. We could get America to Switzerland levels of gun violence without necessarily banning guns.

Spoiler

It's an analogy, we shouldn't actually talk about gun control.

 

[Evil Monkey DTT]

I'm sure there are male side characters in all those games that had awful things happen to them as well..

Again, victims of rape are usually women. Should we ban rape/abuse of women from games? Seems like that's what she'd prefer. Many people would disagree with that type of censorship.

I don't consider the video about specific cases as showing a trend in story telling. Agree or don't agree the trends are there and should be educated to promote better ideas for all audiences involved. This isn't about censorship as it is about awareness and looking that the "tropes" in video games (or in media if you look at her other videos)

 

[Cloudy]

In the grander scheme of things this is an issue because the roles of women are vastly underwritten and underrepresented. To have only a few worthwhile representations of women within the medium while the rest are simply moments that use women as props to drive males forward is problematic because not only is it done with little tact, but because it reduces a majority of the roles of females to the place of the victims with little agency in the events of the story.

In the grander scheme of things, this is because the vast majority of game creators are male and create from their own viewpoint. It's not because anyone only wants to have women as "background decorations".

PS: Maybe I should start my own kickstarter to post more obvious info about gaming

 

[The Technomancer]

I'm sure there are male side characters in all those games that had awful things happen to them as well..

Again, victims of rape are usually women. Should we ban rape/abuse of women from games? Seems like that's what she'd prefer. Many people would disagree with that type of censorship.

We're going in circles at this point. There are male side characters but there are many male characters who either get developed as villains or supporting cast members or at the very least as henchmen are depicted as doing things. The same is not true for women

 

[Cloudy]

We're going in circles at this point. There are male side characters but there are many male characters who either get developed as villains or supporting cast members or at the very least as henchmen are depicted as doing things. The same is not true for women

See my last post

 

[The Technomancer]

See my last post

She's not saying that anyone actively sets out to have women as background decoration as one of their design goals. No-one sticks that up on a whiteboard. But the net effect of writing from that predominantly male perspective and not being aware of the way that you handle women results in the same background decoration effect, malicious or not.

 

[EdibleKnife]

In the grander scheme of things, this is because the vast majority of game creators are male and create from their own viewpoint. It's not because anyone only wants to have women as "background decorations".

PS: Maybe I should start my own kickstarter to post more obvious info about gaming

It's not impossible for male creators to make games with well written female characters nor is it impossible for male players to enjoy games with well written female characters so the stance that "well the people who make games are men so it can never change" rings hollow. Anita and many understand that these tropes are not included out of malice but simply a slavish adherence to the status quo. The entire goal of her videos are that enough people who are in the creative portion of the hobby choose to buck the status quo for the sake of more varied experiences than stick to the easy way. It's not to censor, it's to expand.

 

[zeldablue]

I've been thinking about it...

There is one game that depicts sexual violence against women in a way that wasn't stupidly sexist. It didn't trivialize their pain as "this guy is a bad guy fuel."

I'm talking about Silent Hill 2. The subject matter has everything to do with male on female violence and it does it so amazingly well. If games had that type of nuance all the time, this wouldn't be a complaint, but so many games use sexual violence as a way of incentivizing violence on the "villain" as oppose to building up empathy and making note of the actual problem.

Think of it this way, when you hate someone, you hope to god they do something awful in order to justify some "revenge." That's literally the only reason sexual violence is used. To justify gameplay mechanics of killing lots of dudes. That's exceptionally terrible.

What does rape do to people? How does it change their perception of reality? Just how broken and disturbing does it get? Is it sexy and fun? SH2 doesn't show rape or sexual violence in a sexy, fun way, it shows it for what it is. Traumatizing, guilt soaking, horrifying, life crippling.

That's the kind of situation that should be conveyed. (Same with violence in general too...)

Spoiler

Almost all of the enemies are feminine. As the player you are forced to realize the plight of several women. You're forced to be seen at fault. Even after protecting a rape victim, the player is told to be a part of this problem as well. There are few ways to disassociate James from Pyramid Head. There are no scapegoats. It's just raw anger and contempt and guilt. (As well as genuine love.) it's a horrifying roller coaster ride of depression...with the player having all faults projected onto him. The rape victim kills herself from the trauma of being raped by her dad. All the dead bodies look like James, all the docile enemies reflect his wife. Pyramid head reflects James's repressed sexual frustration, guilt and anger. Maria is the ideal sexualized form of his dead wife. If you fall for Maria, your doomed to repeat the same agonizing fate because nothing is learned. Mary is his wife who let out her anger on James for 2 years after becoming terminal and deformed. The whole game is about facing the guilt of losing someone you love, losing your sexual partner and facing the reality that you killed her after she fell into a desperate depression.

Anita should have brought that up along with Papa y Yo.

No problem depicting violence or even sexual violence. Using it stupidly, is harmful when almost everyone lives in complete ignorance to sexual violence and the real harm it causes.

People need to stop thinking rape = bad thing that bad guys do. They need to know WHY rape = bad. Stop thinking about punishing the aggressor and start thinking about fixing the harm he caused.

:/

 

[evangd007]

I'm sure there are male side characters in all those games that had awful things happen to them as well..

Again, victims of rape are usually women. Should we ban rape/abuse of women from games? Seems like that's what she'd prefer. Many people would disagree with that type of censorship.

The point is that it's a lazy, overused plot device that is also insensitive. There are ways to sell your game world as dark without using the same damn thing every time. The Last of Us convinced me that the world was a post-apocalyptic shithole without having to resort to rape despite being exactly the kind of world where that sort of thing would take place. In fact, this discussion is making me appreciate that game more. The storytelling was nuanced, at times subtle, not preachy, and, dare I say, mature.

 

[HolyBaikal]

I haven't watched these videos because she said they show nasty violence and I don't want to see that. But I'm sure they're great. :<

 

[Galactic Fork]

Why is it lazy and thoughtless? Your argument basically boils down to "I don't like it because it's a trope." Guess what: everything is a trope. Taking issue with tropes just because they're tropes (and therefore "overused") is ludicrous.

It's not because it's a trope. Some tropes are overused, some tropes aren't used a lot. It simply being a trope has nothing to do with it. I never even mentioned the word trope. I said it was overused... there was no "therefore 'overused.'" I stated it was overused because abduction of women is used a whole lot as motivation, and the added threat of sexual assault is an easy way to add "darkness." Doesn't take much thought, easy to implement. Just make a dude stand up all smirky like and say:
“It’s a party isn’t it? Grab a whore and have a good time. Savor the hunt boys.”
Done and done... See? cheap: Not much effort, not much thought, all for an easy emotional response from the player.

You realize that literally everything in a narrative is being used to "elaborate on the story," right? There is no such thing as an event depicted in a work of literature that "is just about the act itself," whatever the hell that means.

You know... you quoted my words in blockquotes right above this response, yet you didn't quote me correctly when you typed it out. I didn't say "elaborate on the story." Look up there. I said "elaborate on something else in the story." How about not making it a tool to show how bad someone else is. Or a tool to show how valiant the hero is for stopping it. Or how callous and oppressive the government is.

Contrast that with Papo & Yo, while about child abuse rather than sexual abuse, the story was an abstract about the abuse and the effects on the child. The abuse wasn't used to show how bad the father was in some greater story. The little boy's abuse wasn't a tool to give you some other message about something else entirely.

It could be interesting if there were a game that actually was a comentary on sexual abuse, about its actual affects on people.

Sure, and women sometimes play as men too. But Sarkeesian's thesis is that this trope exists as a way to titillate male gamers, by putting them in the position of the heroic macho rescuer of the helpless women. Except in this case you can play as a woman and save your own self. She doesn't mention this, however, presumably because it's an indication that her thesis might be oversimplified and she's not intellectually rigorous enough to anticipate and defend against potential criticisms.

No. You are oversimplifying what she's saying.

First of all, the female elf MC isn't the only one taken, and immediately after the capture, she's provided with a sword. You still go off to try to rescue the women, and not long after getting out of the cell, the female elf's story converges with the male elf's and it's not much different. The other elf women are there for the same purpose no matter which gender MC you choose. They are still background decoration to give the player something to rescue while their impending assault "paints the gaming environment with a harsh brush." So their " victimhood is exploited as a way to infuse edgy, gritty or racy flavoring into game world."

You seem to be focusing on the "titilating male players" part to the point that if you don't think it titilating, then everything she said magiclally becomes invalid.

They're not both examples. These are totally different depictions. None of the reasons that Sarkeesian gives for why the women as background decoration trope is supposedly objectionable applies to the Dragon Age example.

None? Hmm, OK. let's see what she said and when the clips of Dragon Age are shown in the video...

First time Dragon Age is shown within the actual commentary (the first time it was shown was the opening because really, Vaughan standing up and saying that line is so perfect for this episode it's like they wrote it for it. If this was Borderlands, after that line, the screen woulda gone all stylized and say "Vaughan... The douchiest douche that ever douched."):

This Drop Dead Gorgeous trope, as it’s called, is commonly used in other forms of mass media, especially in fashion advertising. It is the collusion of violence done to women’s bodies and the fact that it is often sexualized. The idea being that a dead woman is still inherently beautiful, even if her body has been maimed, her life stolen from her, something arousing still remains available for male consumption.

CLIP: Dragon Age: Origins
“Well that’s one less elf breeder in the world.”
“A shame though, nice body on that one.”
“She’s still warm, how picky are you anyway?”

So see? A twofer. It follows the quote above, AND it's also shown to show how evil the dudes around her are.

So in addition to helping paint a gritty picture for the rest of the game experience, this kind of sexualized violence against inessential female characters is exploited by developers as a sort of cheap one-note character development for the “bad guys”.

CLIP: Dragon Age: Origins
“Let go of me, stop, please!”
“It’s a party isn’t it? Grab a whore and have a good time. Savor the hunt boys.”

So we have Vaughan Vaughaning it up. Check. As for the rest of the abduction stuff, refer to above.

 

[Panajev2001a]

And thats objectifying. The women exist only as objects to be acted on, not characters in any other regard. They don't even do anything, they're, wait for it, background decoration.

That's not objectifying in and of itself... Agent A rapes Agent B = sufficient enough condition to imply Agent A is not what you'd call a saint.

Where is the sex of either Agent A or Agent B being even specified or implied in the statement I made?

My response is very pedantic and not meant to cover every single rape scene in every game, but your reply to the other poster's comment and thus the comment itself.

 

[Staccat0]

On a fundamental level... it's pretty scary and weird to me that people get so upset when some lady on the internet is "unfair" to a multi-million dollar media industry. I can see disagreeing or being annoying, but getting so angry about it seems unhinged. Nothing can explain that for me.
I worked on BL2. She once critiqued an aspect of BL2. I'm still fucking alive and employed. It'll be fine dawg.

If someone critiques hollywood or the music industry as sexist it's usually just absorbed as another critique. Someone says it about videogames and it's suddenly personal? It doesn't seem to me like people have issues with Anita. It seems like these mother-fuckers are wanting for real critisism of the medium. If there were a 100 people making videos of this kind of quality we'd be able to have moderatley intelligent discussions.

 

[Galactic Fork]

I've been thinking about it...

There is one game that depicts sexual violence against women in a way that wasn't stupidly sexist. It didn't trivialize their pain as "this guy is a bad guy fuel."

I'm talking about Silent Hill 2. The subject matter has everything to do with male on female violence and it does it so amazingly well. If games had that type of nuance all the time, this wouldn't be a complaint, but so many games use sexual violence as a way of incentivizing violence on the "villain" as oppose to building up empathy and making note of the actual problem.

Hmm I hadn't thought of Silent Hill 2 like that, it's been such a long time since I played it though. Maybe I should try again. Thanks!

 

[bjorn222]

I wonder if she can provide positive instances of showing violence and exploitation that occur in the background.
For every open world game that we want to be realistic, You cant just wipe the world of violence, but you cannot expect the developer to create a in depth papa and yo story for every single npc.

Also, Why don't men complain about that fact that in most games/shooters, there is constant violence being perpetrated against them. In every single shooter, the player is often dispatching hundreds upon hundreds of male npc's, and yet nobody seems to care about that. Yet the instant it was shown there were female cops in GTA V, there was outrage.

No doubt, Some of the stuff she discussed, like the advertisements for hitman absolution, were unnecessary, but i find most of her examples quit baseless.

For example, women in Bioshock being positioned in sexual ways, exactly how are you supposed to position a dead female body that wouldn't be viewed as sexual by someone looking for it. I can literally not think of a single way unless you put each body in a box that said "female body" on it.

Violence and exploitation of women in video games is to make the player hate the antagonist. In some cases, Hitman and God of war, it is randomly thrown in for no reason, but if I saw Andrew Ryan stealing money from people, I wouldn't give two shits, but If he was beating up an innocent women, you can bet your bottom dollar I'm gonna be motivated to beat the game. I'm not saying that its a requirement, but their is always something to show how evil the antagonist is, whether its violence against women children and animals. I would find it interesting to see how players respond to various scenarios, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if the least emotional response would be to violence against men. Happens all the time in video games.

 

[Staccat0]

I wonder if she can provide positive instances of showing violence and exploitation that occur in the background.

That would be interesting but beside the point. She is saying, "these are examples of thing that I want to explain to you and make you aware that it exists."
She is not saying, "This should never exist and cannot be done well."
That's just weird dudes on the internet filling in blanks.

For every open world game that we want to be realistic, You cant just wipe the world of violence, but you cannot expect the developer to create a in depth papa and yo story for every single npc.

Yeah.

Also, Why don't men complain about that fact that in most games/shooters, there is constant violence being perpetrated against them. In every single shooter, the player is often dispatching hundreds upon hundreds of male npc's, and yet nobody seems to care about that. Yet the instant it was shown there were female cops in GTA V, there was outrage.

History provides a context for our lives. Each person brings perspective to the conversation, and when you introduce art into a public context you should to consider what you are trying to say in that context and how you are changing it. You know this.
It's why fat guys can can perhaps tease other fat guys, but you shouldn't.
It's why you talk to your boss differently than your child.

In popular fiction men are built to fight and die and no one cares. That's a symptom. This is a product of sexism, not some disregard for men.

As for female cops in GTA V....
I dunno. I work in the games industry and didn't come across this outrage. It might just be media noise? Do you have a link?

No doubt, Some of the stuff she discussed, like the advertisements for hitman absolution, were unnecessary, but i find most of her examples quit baseless.

For example, women in Bioshock being positioned in sexual ways, exactly how are you supposed to position a dead female body that wouldn't be viewed as sexual by someone looking for it. I can literally not think of a single way unless you put each body in a box that said "female body" on it.

Not a bad point. Some of her stuff kind of reaches, but it doesn't invalidate the broader point IMO.

Violence and exploitation of women in video games is to make the player hate the antagonist. In some cases, Hitman and God of war, it is randomly thrown in for no reason, but if I saw Andrew Ryan stealing money from people, I wouldn't give two shits, but If he was beating up an innocent women, you can bet your bottom dollar I'm gonna be motivated to beat the game. I'm not saying that its a requirement, but their is always something to show how evil the antagonist is, whether its violence against women children and animals. I would find it interesting to see how players respond to various scenarios, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if the least emotional response would be to violence against men. Happens all the time in video games.

Right... isn't that weird though? Sexism hurts men... a LOT. Human pain and suffering should be equally angering and sad, but the argument is when we indulge a primal urge to own, protect and covet woman we not only are making boring art... or reenforcing shitty roles for women... we also devalue men. Feminism isn't just for women.

The horror I felt in gym class as a geeky akward kid is a direct result of fucked-up gender roles.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

It's not like rape and violence against women aren't huge societal problems. Any game set in a "realistic" chaotic situation is probably going to touch on that subject. In fact, I was surprised it never really came up in TLoU.

Go read any news article on areas where there's no law and order. You won't get too far before you read about rapes and other abuse of women. Why is it "background decoration" to include that in games depicting messed-up situations?

Her video already addresses all that. Watch it.

I wonder if she can provide positive instances of showing violence and exploitation that occur in the background.

Look, another one who hasn't watched the video in full.

 

[Trey]

That's not objectifying in and of itself... Agent A rapes Agent B = sufficient enough condition to imply Agent A is not what you'd call a saint.

Where is the sex of either Agent A or Agent B being even specified or implied in the statement I made?

My response is very pedantic and not meant to cover every single rape scene in every game, but your reply to the other poster's comment and thus the comment itself.

In an individual instance, sure. But when women are frequently used a props that suffer sexual violence from a perpetrator simply to show he's really bad, it becomes sexist for the reasons Technomancer has already stated.

That's why it's a trope - it makes it as if women are mostly good as background decoration for a male subject to play off of.

 

[bjorn222]

Her video already addresses all that. Watch it.

Look, another one who hasn't watched the video in full.

She gave one example of papa and yo. Which i responded to. I was refering to the things seen in Far cry 3 and Bioshock. small instances of violence and exploitation that serve to decorate a world, not like in papa and yo where they are able to provide a good example as they have an ENTIRE game to deal with it.

In a world like bioshock and far cry, it would be weird for them to have empty backgrounds, and in each game violence is the setting.

I was asking if there were any good examples of developers that approached violence and exploitation respectfully while being able to keep it small and in the background, a feat that seems impossible to me.

 

[FlowersisBritish]

You realize that every single university in the world has a department of people dedicated to doing this kind of critical reading of books, and most have one dedicated to this kind of critical reading of movies. And almost none has a department dedicated to critical readings of games.

Let's hold the volume of published criticism about books against the volume of non-product review criticism written about games, and think again about how games are singled out.

Virtually all of academia singles games out as "not worth our time". Here at last, someone at least tries to apply some rigor to the medium, and you cry "too much"?

As a person that actually exists in the those realms you speak of; she's not that impressive. Her analysis's are more akin to a TvTropes page than any actual feminist analysis on literature.

 

[Galactic Fork]

Also, Why don't men complain about that fact that in most games/shooters, there is constant violence being perpetrated against them. In every single shooter, the player is often dispatching hundreds upon hundreds of male npc's, and yet nobody seems to care about that. Yet the instant it was shown there were female cops in GTA V, there was outrage.

1) where was the outrage at female cops in GTA V? It would be awesome if there were women cops. Hell, GTA SA had female cop voices but all the cops were male. And nobody said anything about all the female enemies in Skyrim. It's not just a person of a gender getting hurt that's the issue. Here is a quote from the video:

"When the victims are men, sexual objectification and sexual or domestic violence are almost never ingredients in the scenario. Even the countless male thugs and henchmen the player mows down in these games are depicted as active aggressors, not characterized as passive victims."

2) The men aren't there because they're maleness is being used. They are there because male is the default. Women are usually only added as either an afterthought, or sex appeal or their women-ness is needed for some reason. The fact that they are women is tied to their existance in the game. This is addressed a lot in the Mrs. Male Character video. In Mass Effect they didn't include female Turians or Krogan models for enemies or even background characters (except for one heavily veiled one in 3). Quarians had a female model made... And guess what, it's the race with a female love interest to Shepard. The only species that had only female models weren't actually female but agendered.

(Also there was no outrage about the human women enemies in the game, or the Asari (though not actually female).)

No doubt, Some of the stuff she discussed, like the advertisements for hitman absolution, were unnecessary, but i find most of her examples quit baseless.

For example, women in Bioshock being positioned in sexual ways, exactly how are you supposed to position a dead female body that wouldn't be viewed as sexual by someone looking for it. I can literally not think of a single way unless you put each body in a box that said "female body" on it.

In the video they showed an example of a male body displayed in a non sexual way. If a woman was in the same position, it wouldn't have been sexualized either.

Violence and exploitation of women in video games is to make the player hate the antagonist. In some cases, Hitman and God of war, it is randomly thrown in for no reason, but if I saw Andrew Ryan stealing money from people, I wouldn't give two shits, but If he was beating up an innocent women, you can bet your bottom dollar I'm gonna be motivated to beat the game. I'm not saying that its a requirement, but their is always something to show how evil the antagonist is, whether its violence against women children and animals. I would find it interesting to see how players respond to various scenarios, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if the least emotional response would be to violence against men. Happens all the time in video games.

What if you saw Andrew Ryan beating up an innocent man? One who wasn't fighting back? You wouldn't care? This comes down to the fact that it's usually the women characterized as passive victims. Where men, even when innocent, are seen as less passive.

 

[Eidan]

In the grander scheme of things, this is because the vast majority of game creators are male and create from their own viewpoint. It's not because anyone only wants to have women as "background decorations".

PS: Maybe I should start my own kickstarter to post more obvious info about gaming

I think your comment is surprisingly insulting to men, as if writing female characters who are more than just plot devices to enact sexually charged violence on is some great challenge.

 

[stupei]

The reason for women as "background characters" is pretty obvious if you look at the demographics of people who make and play those types of games

I always love the demographics excuse because statistics show that more men of color buy video games than white men, but white males make up like 90% of representation.

It's almost as if the demographic breakdown has nothing to do with the lazy decisions that are being made at all and the excuse, just like these creative decisions, gets repeated over and over because it's the first thing that springs to mind!

 

[zer0blivion]

Anita hasn't mentioned any of Bethesda's games in her videos yet has she? If not, it's something I just noticed.

Dishonored is mentioned in at least one of the Damsel in Distress videos (the second one, I think) for the "woman in a fridge" trope and in at least one of the Women as Background Decoration videos. As others have mentioned, Fallout 3 and New Vegas are both mentioned in Women as Background Decoration.

 

[DigitalDevilSummoner]

A big part of the Olympics had to do with pederasy. It was a pretty big deal. To say the least, it completely excluded women from society.

I think homosexuality was illegal in ancient Greece. The fact that it (pederasty) was a well documented fact does not mean it was institutionalized.

Lycurgus, a notable lawgiver of Sparta made the correlation between men seeking sexual relations with minors and incest (both abominable). (Lakedaimonion politeia by Athenian historian Xenophone)

A common misconception about sexuality in Ancient Greece and the relations of grown men and their pupils comes the inept translation of the term "&#949;&#961;&#945;&#963;&#964;&#942;&#962;"/"Erastês" meaning lover in modern greek, whereas in ancient texts it indicated an instructor or a trainer who had to passionately to pass on his expertise.

Maximus of Tyre (Greek philosopher) notes in his Dissertations that a Spartan man can admire the body a teenage Lacon (the greater area of Sparta) but admire him as we admire a sculpture. Because physical pleasure steaming from hubris is not allowed.

In Athens, according to the Solonian Constitution, there were severe political reprecautions for a gay man.

According to Aeschines (a statesman and one of the ten Attic orators). The teachers/ instructors/ trainers were instructed not allow any man older than the pupils entrance to the wrestling training grounds (Palaestra) and not to allow minors coming to contact with adults during Hermaea (celebrations in honor of Hermes/ Mercury). But should such a relation come to fruition (between an adult and a student) he who has custody of the child can sue the man for lewdness and corruption punishable by death. (source: Against Timarchus).

If you were a young man, in order to join the military or religion of Zeus you had to have sex with older men...

The terminology of "Pederasty" in the wiki link is categorically wrong as it essentially equates to it pedophilia. The term "pederasty" as well as "erômenos" both have the same root, the ancient verb "&#7956;&#961;&#945;&#956;&#945;&#953;" (eramai) which means "love with a passion" and refers to a certain act or craft, denoting absolute devotion and NOT -at the time- physical relations.

Having sex with older men was by no means not an institutionalized "rite of passage" and prohibited by a plethora of laws. It was nevertheless a documented practice.

In naruto terms: Jiraya-sensei, in the ancient greek meaning of the term could also be characterized as the "erastês" of Naruto because of his passion (that's where the root of the word "&#7956;&#961;&#945;&#956;&#945;&#953;" comes in play) for the skills he was to pass on to his pupil and certainly not because of sexual relations between the two.

 

[Anton Sugar]

I always love the demographics excuse because statistics show that more men of color buy video games than white men, but white males make up like 90% of representation.

It's almost as if the demographic breakdown has nothing to do with the lazy decisions that are being made at all and the excuse, just like these creative decisions, gets repeated over and over because it's the first thing that springs to mind!

I think your comment is surprisingly insulting to men, as if writing female characters who are more than just plot devices to enact sexually charged violence on is some great challenge.

Thank you both for these responses. Spot on.

 

[The Blue Jihad]

Yes I know you're more concerned with depth than breadth. It's lame you think that makes her approach "ridiculous", but whatever. To the point here, if you won't even grant she's attempting some academic rigor, that means basically nobody's doing criticism about games: so they're absolutely not being subjected to a "stupid"-high level of scrutiny.

If you submit a "scholarly" piece of criticism that brushes along the top surface without digging in deeper and exploring the details and themes of the works you're analyzing, you're going to be rightfully laughed out. Academia doesn't want breadth; it wants depth. It's why authors devote entire books to close readings of single plays. It's why high-level literary courses often avoid focusing on more than six or seven works across an entire semester. It's why dissertations take years to write. Depth is the name of the game if you're talking about academic rigor.

Otherwise, you're just flirting with attempts and "almost there."

It's easy to write 15-20 pages on BioShock 1. Anita barely spent 15 seconds on it. That's not even close to attempting academic rigor.

You can absolutely spend 20 minutes breaking down Watch_Dogs, ALONE. She spent what, 20 seconds?

These are not academic critiques and you'd barely end up with a few full pages if you stitched the transcript together. Those claiming she's pursuing academic critique have clearly never gone through and learned what academic critique truly is or what it involves.

Also...

As a person that actually exists in the those realms you speak of; she's not that impressive. Her analysis's are more akin to a TvTropes page than any actual feminist analysis on literature.

Pretty much.

 

[Anton Sugar]

If you submit a "scholarly" piece of criticism that brushes along the top surface without digging in deeper and exploring the details and themes of the works you're analyzing, you're going to be rightfully laughed out. Academia doesn't want breadth; it wants depth. It's why authors devote entire books to close readings of single plays. It's why high-level literary courses often avoid focusing on more than six or seven works across an entire semester. It's why dissertations take years to write. Depth is the name of the game if you're talking about academic rigor.

Otherwise, you're just flirting with attempts and "almost there."

It's easy to write 15-20 pages on BioShock 1. Anita barely spent 15 seconds on it. That's not even close to attempting academic rigor.

You can absolutely spend 20 minutes breaking down Watch_Dogs, ALONE. She spent what, 20 seconds?

These are not academic critiques and you'd barely end up with a few full pages if you stitched the transcript together. Those claiming she's pursuing academic critique have clearly never gone through and learned what academic critique truly is or what it involves.

Also...



Pretty much.

This feels like semantics. You really want her to spent 20 minutes on one game when she's trying to point out an industry wide problem?

She touches on a number of games that exemplify a concept that she details and explains in full. Focusing on 1-2 games wouldn't help.

 

[SaggyMonkey]

Basically what I've taken away from these videos is that games have a lot of amateur writers who just rip off the same sources. If you widened the lens you'd find many cliches being overused, not just around female characters. I'd hope if anything designers and writers reflect about how to use some different storytelling techniques.

What I don't take away from these videos that this pattern is a sign of some patriarchal conspiracy in game development to only show "violence against women" when in reality those games utilize violent acts casually in general. Maybe your opinion is that you'd prefer to play less violent games, fine... Games shouldn't be above critical reflection. But as a societal ill that games may or may not be causing, Jack Thompson had a hard time proving it, and so has Anita so far.