cubicle47b
Member
Yeah, I think Erik's article is really good.I think Erik's article is probably my favorite write up on all of this.
Yeah, I think Erik's article is really good.I think Erik's article is probably my favorite write up on all of this.
While some of those tweets are certainly tasteless, it is dishonest to act as if any of them are the moral equivalent of what some gamers have done to Anita Sarkeesian, Jenn Frank, and others.http://gamergateharrassment.tumblr.com/ is a pretty good collection of anti-#gamergate people being assholes. Prime examples being "I have more respect for ISIS than the anti-Quinn people" and "#gamergate is a good example of why we need to #killallmen"
Neither side has a monopoly on bad people, just like how neither side has a monopoly on good people.
The whole relationship between gaming journalism-gamers is really bizarre.
It seems like often times anyone with a clear sense of mind and a pair of working eyes can see that they hate each other so deeply, and yet at the same time each one of them has a longing/dependence on the other that is also deep to the point where one cannot exist without the other
I don't know what to call it. It is truly a bizarre relationship.
Kudos. I admire your willingness to turn away from this horrible campaign in the face of what happened to Jenn. I hope this thread makes for a good place to discuss these issues, and if you have any more questions for me, let me know and I'll do my best to answer.
There's no relevant distinction. The attacks on on women in the media are attacks on women gamers and attacks on women period.
While some of those tweets are certainly tasteless, it is dishonest to act as if any of them are the moral equivalent of what some gamers have done to Anita Sarkeesian, Jenn Frank, and others.
Well, in terms of actual hard news, most of that is press releases, very little actual digging, so it doesn't matter too much there.
In terms of reviews and game discussion- it most definitely does matter, as reviewers are dependent on revenue.
In a way , it's not a surprise that the dissonance occured- we're naturally suspicious of anything with that business model, and yet we're unwilling to pony up money to ensure a financially independent game journo place.
I think at this point decent people shouldn't bother. Find a relatively quiet corner of the internet, like this thread, to discuss it until the shitstorm dies down then go try to pick up the pieces afterwards. It's already snowballed too big to get a handle on now.That said, decent people supporting GamerGate are in danger of getting lost in the mob mentality. They should do everything in their power to excise the bad apples.
I have to agree. There's a big gulf between tweeting about how you want to kill all men and actually driving people out of their homes/jobs.While some of those tweets are certainly tasteless, it is dishonest to act as if any of them are the moral equivalent of what some gamers have done to Anita Sarkeesian, Jenn Frank, and others.
It's too generalising to be taken seriously in my opinion.Do you think #killallmen is more, less, or equally reprehensible as a personal death threat?
http://gamergateharrassment.tumblr.com/ is a pretty good collection of anti-#gamergate people being assholes. Prime examples being "I have more respect for ISIS than the anti-Quinn people" and "#gamergate is a good example of why we need to #killallmen"
Neither side has a monopoly on bad people, just like how neither side has a monopoly on good people.
While some of those tweets are certainly tasteless, it is dishonest to act as if any of them are the moral equivalent of what some gamers have done to Anita Sarkeesian, Jenn Frank, and others.
And that's the sad part to me: from my perspective, we don't have this anymore. I can meet people of the same religious, political, racial or socioeconomic backgrounds, discover that we're both gamers, and still discover I have next to no common ground with those people. I've known people who loved video games but, besides some common touchstones, were hard to discuss games with. How do you talk about, say, the character designs that you're not totally comfortable with in Dragon's Crown to someone who's basically told you "dat ass"? Or, alternatively, how do you talk to someone about that awesome Atelier game you've been playing recently when the cover is basically an anime schoolgirl in old-timey dress? How do you even talk about Gone Home to someone who doesn't give a shit about LGBT issues?
While some of those tweets are certainly tasteless, it is dishonest to act as if any of them are the moral equivalent of what some gamers have done to Anita Sarkeesian, Jenn Frank, and others.
http://gamergateharrassment.tumblr.com/ is a pretty good collection of anti-#gamergate people being assholes. Prime examples being "I have more respect for ISIS than the anti-Quinn people" and "#gamergate is a good example of why we need to #killallmen"
Neither side has a monopoly on bad people, just like how neither side has a monopoly on good people.
Gaming culture was never gaming culture though. Since the 1990s the culture around 4x strategy games was nowhere close to the people who were playing NES Iron Tank. Gaming has also just kept more and more diversified, indie games are not CoD are not pokemon are not MMOs are not Madden are not Street Fighter are not Blazblue. Heck even MMOs have diffierent cultures depending on the MMO (TERA has a different culture from Wildstar which is different from WOW in culture if not play mechanics) And that gets to even further different cultures along country lines, Visual Novels, anime fighters, and Eroge even.
"Gaming" culture has never been more then a mirage. Right now it's a mirage people are setting up as a bogeyman. The last time this happened we went through a couple years the general populous thought "Gamer" was shorthand for "Violent Teen"
Don't encourage that behavior by conceding to the insane generalization that requires only a moment's thought on demographics to disprove.
While some of those tweets are certainly tasteless, it is dishonest to act as if any of them are the moral equivalent of what some gamers have done to Anita Sarkeesian, Jenn Frank, and others.
The comparison and equivalence between the ones you listed and actually getting rape & death threats; calls to your phone and family; your home address; gender-specific threats; nude pics; and on and on; is severely flawed and false.
I have no idea why people think there is an equivalence and "sides" in this matter.
http://gamergateharrassment.tumblr.com/ is a pretty good collection of anti-#gamergate people being assholes. Prime examples being "I have more respect for ISIS than the anti-Quinn people" and "#gamergate is a good example of why we need to #killallmen"
Neither side has a monopoly on bad people, just like how neither side has a monopoly on good people.
Because GamerGate did not start as a "MRAs vs SJWs/Feminists". Its goal is fight against vg press/media corruption.
Due to tag-hijacking, flaming, idiocy and sociopaths from all, yes all sides. it became what it became.
Ummm I don't think so? Our company isn't big on lists of rules, since ethical questions so rarely have easy answers. I've always felt like these things should be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. (Kotaku does have some game-specific rules like "no paid travel from publishers" and "try to get rid of all this nonsense swag they keep sending us" but nothing written down anywhere.)Just out of curiosity, do you guys have an internal set of rules that staff members are required to follow?Rules relevant to this subject, that is, and if you're allowed to talk about it, of course.
Thank You very much. The "Gamer" tag to me was always dumb to me anyway.
This whole subject is little to dark for my taste. IMO I come to realize, since the internet all types Journalism has become a joke.
Bro, did you not see that Killallmen tag. Jesus, if I wrote #killallwomen, you realize the sh!tstorm that would brew up? And comparing some stupid group of gamers doxxing someone to an extremist group that beheads people and kills many others.... yea, I would that's beyond tasteless (not to mention they're group that will actually straight up kill women who don't conform rather than sending petty twitter messages and e threats)
. Right now I'd be more likely to confess to any of that at random than admitting to being a gamer. I fear it will make me look like a simply horrible person instead of a shunned and out-of-touch one.
TLDR; We're all screwed and the generally-misguided nature of the term "gamer" is now going to take even longer to correct than it already did. Also, something has gone terribly wrong when I'm more likely to trust a well-written review of a game on Amazon than any given known source. At least that person paid $60 for the damn thing and can speak of it in context of other stuff they've paid $60 for. This is not an accusation of bribery. It's just basic consumerism. I will then deny I ever purchased a video game because eew gamers.
KillAllMen is a tasteless joke used by feminists to poke fun at their own stereotype (that they're all a bunch of man haters). It's not a good joke, but it's also not advocating a capital crime, like some would suggest.
From the outside of the gaming community, this doesn't even exist and the results of whatever happened will matter to no one outside of gaming so if you were to say you were a gamer, it wouldnt make you look like a horrible person as you claim but maybe what people consider a nerd or a geek to be.
Some gamers have this mentality that outside of the gaming "box", people actually know about all this. This is but the tiniest blip in the world right now.
You are not sexist or misogynists, however the mob WILL have them, and statistically since we have no celebrities or politicians the mob will near exclusively go after the media and the women will experience the hate by a factor of 4... That is a noticeable difference when you compare yourself among your peers.
Because GamerGate did not start as a "MRAs vs SJWs/Feminists". Its goal is fight against vg press/media corruption.
Due to tag-hijacking, flaming, idiocy and sociopaths from all, yes all sides. it became what it became.
Because GamerGate did not start as a "MRAs vs SJWs/Feminists". Its goal is fight against vg press/media corruption.
Due to tag-hijacking, flaming, idiocy and sociopaths from all, yes all sides. it became what it became.
While some of those tweets are certainly tasteless, it is dishonest to act as if any of them are the moral equivalent of what some gamers have done to Anita Sarkeesian, Jenn Frank, and others.
Indeed, and we see this phenomena in sports where racist bigots threaten certain players
Just out of curiosity, do you guys have an internal set of rules that staff members are required to follow?Rules relevant to this subject, that is, and if you're allowed to talk about it, of course.
Because GamerGate did not start as a "MRAs vs SJWs/Feminists". Its goal is fight against vg press/media corruption.
Due to tag-hijacking, flaming, idiocy and sociopaths from all, yes all sides. it became what it became.
Because it constructs a simple narrative that allows for a simple resolution. It's why political parties exist despite just about any given politician agreeing with relatively little in the party they identify with.The comparison and equivalence between the ones you listed and actually getting rape & death threats; calls to your phone and family; your home address; gender-specific threats; nude pics; and on and on; is severely flawed and false.
I have no idea why people think there is an equivalence and "sides" in this matter.
Gamergate was in the aftermath of Quinn and Sarkeesian. It was rooted in misogyny and the ones being targeted by GG were women. The people thinking it was about corruption needed to read up on the background and understand that the whole thing originated with Quinn and the casualties associated with her.
Far less, and you can't be serious.Do you think #killallmen is more, less, or equally reprehensible as a personal death threat?
Also the fact that Adam Baldwin, Breitbart, Internet Aristocrat, thunderfoot, Five Guys, a guy who looks like an amateur magician, and some unclean dude in a bathrobe making hour-long youtube videos about SJW conspiracies were the ones backing Gamergate should inform people what type of people you are associating yourself with and what the cause you're supporting might effectively target.
Just fyi.
No, it started that way too. It was spearheaded by people like Baldwin and TheInteretAristocrat. There might have been good people in there, but it was doomed from the start.
The "Quinnspiracy" apparent effort of cover-up, followed by "Death of Gamers" was what brought the rage of people towards vg press/media. I am not denying that there are morons with their own misogynistic agenda in GamerGate. But they are some of the bad apples I talked about earlier.
Also the fact that Adam Baldwin, Breitbart, Internet Aristocrat, thunderfoot, Five Guys, a guy who looks like an amateur magician, and some unclean dude in a bathrobe making hour-long youtube videos about SJW conspiracies were the ones backing Gamergate should inform people what type of people you are associating yourself with and what the cause you're supporting might effectively target.
Just fyi.
Wait, the actual Five Guys was involved with this?
Also the fact that Adam Baldwin, Breitbart, Internet Aristocrat, thunderfoot, Five Guys, a guy who looks like an amateur magician, and some unclean dude in a bathrobe making hour-long youtube videos about SJW conspiracies were the ones backing Gamergate should inform people what type of people you are associating yourself with and what the cause you're supporting might effectively target.
Just fyi.
Google and come to your own conclusions.Cover up what?
I forgot about Adam Baldwin's tweets...you'd think people would realise they might be associating with the wrong people when you're agreeing with the same campaign as him.
Cover up what?
Are you joking? I haven't read anything written by a gaming 'journalist' until all this gamergate nonsense happened(broke a 5 year streak) and I like it that way.
The only thing that anyone with a clear sense of mind and a pair of working eyes can see is that gaming 'journalism' is on its way out and the writers are in their death throes. The least they could do is go out with a little grace.
Because it constructs a simple narrative that allows for a simple resolution. It's why political parties exist despite just about any given politician agreeing with relatively little in the party they identify with.
People devolve quickly when a "side" is perceived as being "attacked" (especially when they believe they have ownership over it). People also tend to want allies and the allies that shout the loudest tend to look really attractive.
It's social engineering, but at the laziest level. Luckily, the people who tend to shout the loudest also tend to get tired fastest, and so once the shouting dissipates, the people who remain tend towards more rational resolutions. I'm not sure how that last part actually plays out online though, where it's easy to continue shouting seemingly forever.
The "Quinnspiracy" apparent effort of cover-up, followed by "Death of Gamers" was what brought the rage of people towards vg press/media. I am not denying that there are morons with their own misogynistic agenda in GamerGate. But they are some of the bad apples I talked about earlier.
To understand why, its necessary to acknowledge another distinction. Those codes were written primarily to uphold the reliability of news reportage, but not everything published in the gaming press is news reportage. Even stories that look like news arent always news. Thats because, historically, games journalism grew out of whats called the enthusiast press  meaning that it was (and still is) written primarily by gaming enthusiasts, for other gaming enthusiasts.
And if you really think it through, you probably dont want that to change entirely. After all, as gamers  which is to say, as enthusiasts  most of us enjoy the anticipation thats created when a gaming site reports what theyve learned about an upcoming release, even when that report is based on a press release. You cannot avoid or dissolve the relationships that make those reports possible, save at the cost of losing that coverage.
Growth will mean insisting upon the distinction between serious investigative journalism and the sort of enthusiast reporting that has traditionally passed for gaming news. If youre promoting #GamerGate because you like the way the gaming press covered games before writers starting investigating topics like labor exploitation and the gender divide, then you may want to stop insisting on higher journalistic standards.
If you truly cared about equality you would eat In-n-Out