cubicle47b
Member
Yeah, I think Erik's article is really good.
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#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014
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While some of those tweets are certainly tasteless, it is dishonest to act as if any of them are the moral equivalent of what some gamers have done to Anita Sarkeesian, Jenn Frank, and others.
akachan ningen
Member
Are you joking? I haven't read anything written by a gaming 'journalist' until all this gamergate nonsense happened(broke a 5 year streak) and I like it that way.
The only thing that anyone with a clear sense of mind and a pair of working eyes can see is that gaming 'journalism' is on its way out and the writers are in their death throes. The least they could do is go out with a little grace.
Gsak
Member
Just to be clear: I don't agree that the campaign is horrible. I still support some of its points: Stop vg press corruption. Transparency in media. Agendas should remain in OP-ED pieces (and I'm not even sure if that's ok). Equal spotlight on every side. No generalizations and or blanket statements.
That said, decent people supporting GamerGate are in danger of getting lost in the mob mentality. They should do everything in their power to excise the bad apples.
Yesterday, I spent more than an hour, trying to reason and explain Jenn's Frank situation to a fuckhead that was attacking her on Twitter, up until I asked him: "Do you even know who she is, and what she is doing?"
His answer? "No, I don't know her and I don't care". That was the last fucking straw for me, especially after what Jenn went through last night.
The idiot was an MRA with major issues who -to his admittance- used the GamerGate tag in order to promote his own hatred.
I've seen the same behavior from SJWs and feminists and more. So much hate and indiscriminate attacks.
I've seen the tag being taken advantage by opportunists for attention and gain.
So, yeah, I'm done with GamerGate, because it's not-organized at all and they can't seem to focus on their goals and kick the sociopaths out. I won't stand up for bigotry and hate, no matter where they come from.
In the end, each side needs to pause for a min, realize they address actual human beings. And then sit the fuck down and engage each other in civil, calm, polite and focused discourse, so something good can come out of this. Who knows, maybe we will see that we are all gamers or at least most of us who are involved in this mess, and find out that -who knew- we have more in common than we thought.
One of them is us all being persons with personalities and feelings. Human beings. Time to fucking act like it.
If you don't find details important, that is fine, I try not to over simplify something, when it isn't clear cut. I think the distinction is helpful in seeing where the focus can come from. I mean, if you are explaining where the idea of hate is coming from, it helps to know who will take the brunt of the attacks. Ignoring detail for reductionist, imo, is only helpful in slogans. To understand what is happening, trying to figure out the details can help. I mean, we are talking about hashtag on twitter and most of the drama that has happened has been on twitter, so figuring out patterns on twitter wouldn't be a bad idea.
If you dont think it matters then that is good for you, but when someone says "well this developer wasn't attacked", I'm going to respond with, well that is because developers are not the focus here, it is the media(and some indies clearly).
One of those twits (from a writer no less) wants to commit capital crimes!
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
No, it's just most of the audience of gaming sites, especially the ones dependant on traffic generated by reviews, simply do not want any nuance in reviews other than the number.
Look, to me, the problem with that kind of model isn't something as simple as just corruption. Tradition gaming site audiences want previews and day 1 reviews. Problem is, it's not possible unless they actually do have a relationship with the publishers and developers. That's where enthusiast press diverge from actual journalism, whether it be music, movies, cars, etc.
Problem is, developers and publishers have no need to follow an ethics code, so they'll try whatever means to get coverage to be in their favor. Some games press do actually try to ignore it and get on with their job, some don't.
So, really, it's the majority of gaming culture that fosters this kind of relationship with the press. Which I don't think forums are entirely immune of either. Even on this forum many are hungry for any coverage they can get ahold of, and it comes with all those stipulations listed above. Its just how gaming culture is in general.
I think at this point decent people shouldn't bother. Find a relatively quiet corner of the internet, like this thread, to discuss it until the shitstorm dies down then go try to pick up the pieces afterwards. It's already snowballed too big to get a handle on now.
You have as much chance of saving #GamerGate as you do an MRA organisation
I have to agree. There's a big gulf between tweeting about how you want to kill all men and actually driving people out of their homes/jobs.
It's too generalising to be taken seriously in my opinion.
TheBryanJZX90
Member
Do you think #killallmen is more, less, or equally reprehensible as a personal death threat?
Or if you are going to single out these people as being proof, then all the gamers that are supposedly not representative of everyone else (the ones that are misogynistic and send death threats) should also be held up as an example. Can't have it both ways.
To me there is absolutely no recourse for this movement. The vile harassment that has been perpetrated by people flying the #gamergate flag has made the entire thing a lost cause. If anyone actually does want to have serious conversations about ethics and cronyism then try creating something new. Don't feed into the mess.
duessano
Member
The common ground is gaming, I find the designs in Dragon's Crown excellent as they remind me of Flemish Baroque paintings and the work of Boris Vallejo but I can understand your discomfort, this doesn't mean a line is drawn and we can't enjoy the gameplay and still agree to disagree about the art. Everyone has to keep an open mind, because gaming is all about exploration and discovery.
There have been death threats to supports of #gamergate, I can't say that is is equivalent but that's all subjective.
The comparison and equivalence between the ones you listed and actually getting rape & death threats; calls to your phone and family; your home address; gender-specific threats; nude pics; and on and on; is severely flawed and false.
It is almost offensive to me that what Sarkeesian and Quinn and Frank and Brice and so many other women in the games culture have experienced is being equated to being ridiculously compared to ISIS or being joked with killallmen.
I have no idea why people think there is an equivalence and "sides" in this matter.
aspiegamer
Member
Over the past few weeks I've been trying to follow this (but admittedly had not heard of the #GamerGate thing specifically). As I read though everything in this thread I realized that it was making me physically nauseous as I kept going. That is never a feeling anyone should have to associate with their hobby. Period. It defeats the purpose of it being a hobby. There are surely countless others that feel the same way. Right now I would not fault anyone who wanted to run from this all, whether for a short time or permanently.
Not that I was ever particularly proud of tagging myself as "gamer" but I realize that I'm frankly ashamed. It now ranks lower (higher?) on the list of all the other stuff I'm generally terrified to identify myself with because it simply isn't sociable with any rando member of the public. My favorite sport is Formula One. I prefer House music. I enjoy soccer and cycling. Kitten videos are the best use of YouTube. I hate beer. I'm on long-term disability. That's some socially awkward stuff, un-relatable stuff, some generically "un-American" stuff in the eyes of some and some personal shame. Right now I'd be more likely to confess to any of that at random than admitting to being a gamer. I fear it will make me look like a simply horrible person instead of a shunned and out-of-touch one.
A few things annoy me more than others on how we've gotten to this situation--
Not that I was ever particularly proud of tagging myself as "gamer" but I realize that I'm frankly ashamed. It now ranks lower (higher?) on the list of all the other stuff I'm generally terrified to identify myself with because it simply isn't sociable with any rando member of the public. My favorite sport is Formula One. I prefer House music. I enjoy soccer and cycling. Kitten videos are the best use of YouTube. I hate beer. I'm on long-term disability. That's some socially awkward stuff, un-relatable stuff, some generically "un-American" stuff in the eyes of some and some personal shame. Right now I'd be more likely to confess to any of that at random than admitting to being a gamer. I fear it will make me look like a simply horrible person instead of a shunned and out-of-touch one.
A few things annoy me more than others on how we've gotten to this situation--
- The bulk of this took off after a false flag jealous lover doxxing incident from an exceptional jerk. This legitimately angers me. Infuriates me. Just. Sigh.
- A nearly total lack of willingness for open discussion from the loudest antagonists. The third article in the OP covers this matter well.
- It's been driven into the general public who don't know the differences between gaming journalism and media versus "traditional" and is thus amplified further.
- The more legitimate issues have been buried under drama.
The problem is that from the outside no one is going to make any of these distinctions. It's just gamers. Bad apples in with the good.
Dragonborn
Member
Bro, did you not see that Killallmen tag. Jesus, if I wrote #killallwomen, you realize the sh!tstorm that would brew up? And comparing some stupid group of gamers doxxing someone to an extremist group that beheads people and kills many others.... yea, I would that's beyond tasteless (not to mention they're group that will actually straight up kill women who don't conform rather than send them petty twitter messages and e threats)
Gsak
Member
Because GamerGate did not start as a "MRAs vs SJWs/Feminists". Its goal is fight against vg press/media corruption.
Due to tag-hijacking, flaming, idiocy and sociopaths from all, yes all sides. it became what it became.
A collection of angry tweets (justifiably angry for some) is not equal to continuous abuse, invasions of privacy and other illegal acts against individuals in an attempt to oust them from gaming.
That was never the original point of the campaign. If this was about corruption, there would be a focus on big publishers that are known to provide free gifts and similar things to journalists. Instead it's aimed at the sex life of a single woman that has no visible link to corruption in gaming.
Ummm I don't think so? Our company isn't big on lists of rules, since ethical questions so rarely have easy answers. I've always felt like these things should be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. (Kotaku does have some game-specific rules like "no paid travel from publishers" and "try to get rid of all this nonsense swag they keep sending us" but nothing written down anywhere.)
No worries
I've no issues with the word 'gamer'. Its only ever meant 'someone who regularly plays games' to me. In the same way that someone who runs every week would be called a runner. I'll continue to use it to describe myself regardless of if people are trying to drag it through the mud. If I lived through the stigma as a kid I can certainly do it as an adult.
Though I do think it needlessly distracts from what is supposedly that 'side's' (for lack of a better term) core argument of 'misogyny in gaming culture'. No idea why some of these journos would feel it more important to lash out at 'gamers' instead of the misogynists themselves. It just muddies your own message imo.
Also gonna disagree with the idea that all internet journalism is a joke. Oddly enough my faith has been redeemed by Forbes and Slate. Go figure.
It's tasteless. But it's not equivalent to said doxxing in the first place.
This thread is the first time I've heard that people are doxxing from the anti-GG side though, and I'd be curious to see if this is true.
duessano
Member
From the outside of the gaming community, this doesn't even exist and the results of whatever happened will matter to no one outside of gaming so if you were to say you were a gamer, it wouldnt make you look like a horrible person as you claim but maybe what people consider a nerd or a geek to be.
Some gamers have this mentality that outside of the gaming "box", people actually know about all this. This is but the tiniest blip in the world right now.
SerTapTap
Member
It's used in extremely passive aggressive ways that are all too typical of these sort of online debates. I tend to mute passive-aggressive hashtags like that on sight. "not your" and "kill all" in particular. They're not helping anyone as jokes, on the contrary they dilute what should be a civil discussion.
The sad irony of the gamer talking about how lame gamers are to impress their gamer friends really typifies it for me.
Indeed, and we see this phenomena in sports where racist bigots threaten certain players, or in tabloid magazines where women are generally the targets. There will be idiots in the mob especially if beer is nearby. I still can't believe people would bully Zelda Williams away from twitter, or that creeps like the lizardsquad would threaten the SOE president on an airline.
The trolls need to be condemned, but can't be fed too much (however they can also utilize the infamous Streisand Effect). There needs to be more accountability.
No, it started that way too. It was spearheaded by people like Baldwin and TheInteretAristocrat. There might have been good people in there, but it was doomed from the start.
Gamergate was in the aftermath of Quinn and Sarkeesian. It was rooted in misogyny and the ones being targeted by GG were women. The people thinking it was about corruption needed to read up on the background and understand that the whole thing originated with Quinn and the casualties associated with her.
As for the gamer tag, it doesn't apply so much to me because I've become a lot more hesitant to label myself as part of a group. I used to call myself a brony, for example, only to realize that actually I had very little in common with that fandom, or most fandoms in general.
It's sad to me though, that this odious image is what people are trying to push on people who play games.
It's sad to me though, that this odious image is what people are trying to push on people who play games.
If this conversation goes into a "Who has the more evil extremes" then there's been a serious failure along the way and progress will not be achieved.
And again, anonymous trolls want to see the effects of their actions as loud and in as bright lights as possible.
Speaking of sports, I wonder who is going to get threatened on greenbay, due to fantasy team... Cause damn.
MHWilliams
Member
Most sites do, though people generally don't read them. Here's my site's policies. Here's Polygon. GameSpot and GiantBomb are owned by CBS Interactive, meaning they're covered by this. I'm sure I could find others.
I disagree. I think it started out as an MRA type movement. Because realistically speaking, the jumping off point for all of this was the supposed ethical breach with Zoe Quinn. Thing is, there was no allegation to begin with being made that she was sleeping for press coverage. That was something that people extracted from the information leaked online. And there was NOTHING to prove that this was even the case. And yet, this became the jumping off point to launch a supposed campaign against corruption in the press.
Also note, that prior to this campaign being launched, the people that were talking about this corruption, were also sending death threats, rape threats, doxxing people and going full scale war on these people.
So I would very much so say that this started out as an MRA movement, and then later others got involved as there has been many gamers who have been critical of the press and corruption for years. They then fell for the campaigns supposed intention of being against overall corruption in the press. Then everyone else became involved when the collective media's poorly handled message about the death of the gamer identity hit the web. This whole thing has been one big clusterfuck.
But I really do think that this boils down to MRA type minority gamers who have been going to war with journalist/activist for years, who then took the Zoe Quinn incident and pushed things too far. Then the media/activists lashed out, and people that were not the people the the press were addressing got offended (because of how the message was worded). And here we are.
Because it constructs a simple narrative that allows for a simple resolution. It's why political parties exist despite just about any given politician agreeing with relatively little in the party they identify with.
People devolve quickly when a "side" is perceived as being "attacked" (especially when they believe they have ownership over it). People also tend to want allies and the allies that shout the loudest tend to look really attractive.
It's social engineering, but at the laziest level. Luckily, the people who tend to shout the loudest also tend to get tired fastest, and so once the shouting dissipates, the people who remain tend towards more rational resolutions. I'm not sure how that last part actually plays out online though, where it's easy to continue shouting seemingly forever.
Gsak
Member
The "Quinnspiracy" apparent effort of cover-up, followed by "Death of Gamers" was what brought the rage of people towards vg press/media. I am not denying that there are morons with their own misogynistic agenda in GamerGate. But they are some of the bad apples I talked about earlier.
Also the fact that Adam Baldwin, Breitbart, Internet Aristocrat, thunderfoot, Five Guys, a guy who looks like an amateur magician, and some unclean dude in a bathrobe making hour-long youtube videos about SJW conspiracies were the ones backing Gamergate should inform people what type of people you are associating yourself with and what the cause you're supporting might effectively target.
Just fyi.
Just fyi.
Far less, and you can't be serious.
Edit:
I'll expand. One will get you arrested, one will not. They may be both on a very negative side of things, but context and message counts in this comparison.
Wait, the actual Five Guys was involved with this?
I forgot about Adam Baldwin's tweets...you'd think people would realise they might be associating with the wrong people when you're agreeing with the same campaign as him.
Cover up what?
civilstrife
Member
The word gamer is essentially like the word gay. It's a simple descriptor or a pejorative depending on who is saying it and how.
I use both words to describe myself, but they're obviously not all that I am.
I am a son, a boyfriend, Canadian, Jew, gay, hiker, gamer, artist, and so much more.
"I'm a person who likes video games" is not the worst replacement, but I have no problem calling myself gay, so why would I have a problem calling myself a gamer?
That said I think a lot of gaming culture is stupid. So many online gamers are racist, sexist homophobic scum and the industry should do its best to excise those types from its ranks.
And obviously I think 4chan is a complete cesspit.
I guess I am still just hopelessly lost on all this. What a messy, complex "war" this is when bystanders can't be sure which side they're on.
I use both words to describe myself, but they're obviously not all that I am.
I am a son, a boyfriend, Canadian, Jew, gay, hiker, gamer, artist, and so much more.
"I'm a person who likes video games" is not the worst replacement, but I have no problem calling myself gay, so why would I have a problem calling myself a gamer?
That said I think a lot of gaming culture is stupid. So many online gamers are racist, sexist homophobic scum and the industry should do its best to excise those types from its ranks.
And obviously I think 4chan is a complete cesspit.
I guess I am still just hopelessly lost on all this. What a messy, complex "war" this is when bystanders can't be sure which side they're on.
duessano
Member
Fyi, racists can back protests about paying people higher wages at Fast Food restaurants, that doesn't mean the cause isn't just.
Just fyi.
If you truly cared about equality you would eat In-n-Out
Gsak
Member
I can only talk for me, and me alone. I appreciate your sentiment, but I think I am capable of skeptical and analytical thinking towards any agenda-driven members of any side.
All those people you named, might be crude and yes certain can be straight-out dicks. But it doesn't mean all their points are invalid. However, they could have been much more civil about them. Same goes for SJWs and feminists. I won't judge them all negatively, because of some.
Google and come to your own conclusions.
I think the most telling thing is that some people have acted so badly that they are making those right wing wackjobs seem the saner ones!
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Well, it's been no secret that "gamers" can, and the have, countless times, act crazy due to review scores, even in GAF. I mean, if they don't "need" them or "don't care about them" they sure often held their (game reviewers) opinion so much so that it occupies a large part of their (the gamers) attention.
I personally agree with the notion that "game reviewers" are not really necessary anymore, but I don't know--seeing how much emotion "gamers" attach to those piece of texts I often wonder maybe my stance (and yours) are perhaps not shared to the majority of people out there after all.
The thing is, I dont even know what's gonna happen now. Like how the culture is going to move on from here. Will rationality and empathy win out? Will there be a pushback against the exclusionary behavior and the blindsided enthusiasts?
I'm personally pessimistic and I think the last couple of weeks have scared so many people away, most notably women. Which is perfectly understandable, I wouldn't blame anyone for not wanting to be part of and participate in a culture where you might be harassed and denied to the point of exhaustion.
They're not just "some of the bad apples." The misogynists, harassers, and law breakers are the face of GamerGate at this point.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't see this stigma. I never feel like I'm being judged because, I play video games. Everyone plays video games. I was in the middle of class today and my professor was looking a articles of Destiny. I feel bad that a Women in this industry, can not enjoy their job with out some asshole harassing them. I just come to terms that people are pieces of shit, that internet just gives them a path way to express themselves sadly.
Takamura-San
Member
The Rhodes article is fantastic IMO. I will comment on some of the points I agree with:
I believe this is something that we tend to forget often. The whole media was created from enthusiasts for enthusiasts. Being that the case it wasn't founded on the basis of journalism. THIS IS NOT A BAD THING. It becomes a bad thing when one side expects something different from what it means to be.
Part of the game enthusiasts press needs that close relationship with the publisher/developer. Since it is that relationship that provides the footage that the reader wants. At least the readers that recognize what is mean to be provided by the enthusiast press.
The author reiterates that fact:
I believe that most of the divide that we see now stems from being raised by the access provided by the enthusiast press, but not recognizing the relationship that provides that access.
Now we have an audience that demands more, but doesn't recognize what needs to be sacrificed to get it.
Now that doesn't mean that we can't get it, but even the author recognizes that there's little to no motive to provide something much different from the status quo.
The author even wonders do even people want more of what is provided. I wonder the same too:
Most of the time someone want to take a deep look at the state of the industry there is a segment that goes into the defensive. More so when it comes at the expense of the audience.
Now I wonder, is the gaming industry so fragile that it cannot tolerate criticism?
The next thing is game criticism. I for one don't mind it and also don't mind if the critic decides to insert his personal beliefs into the review. Because that's why I, for one, read a review. To comprehend a person take on the product.
I hope we get to a point in which we can separate game criticism from reporting on the industry. Because to me they are mutually exclusive.
Game criticism revolves around a product. Product that has to be provided at the behest of the publisher in advance. That makes the for an enthusiast relationship and not a journalistic one. Which is not bad when it is recognized as such.
On the other hand I would like someone to take on reporting on the industry and the audience. The good or the bad. Hopefully someone finds a way to do it and be able to sustain the effort without being beholden by the same industry they want to report.
I believe this is something that we tend to forget often. The whole media was created from enthusiasts for enthusiasts. Being that the case it wasn't founded on the basis of journalism. THIS IS NOT A BAD THING. It becomes a bad thing when one side expects something different from what it means to be.
Part of the game enthusiasts press needs that close relationship with the publisher/developer. Since it is that relationship that provides the footage that the reader wants. At least the readers that recognize what is mean to be provided by the enthusiast press.
The author reiterates that fact:
I believe that most of the divide that we see now stems from being raised by the access provided by the enthusiast press, but not recognizing the relationship that provides that access.
Now we have an audience that demands more, but doesn't recognize what needs to be sacrificed to get it.
Now that doesn't mean that we can't get it, but even the author recognizes that there's little to no motive to provide something much different from the status quo.
The author even wonders do even people want more of what is provided. I wonder the same too:
Most of the time someone want to take a deep look at the state of the industry there is a segment that goes into the defensive. More so when it comes at the expense of the audience.
Now I wonder, is the gaming industry so fragile that it cannot tolerate criticism?
The next thing is game criticism. I for one don't mind it and also don't mind if the critic decides to insert his personal beliefs into the review. Because that's why I, for one, read a review. To comprehend a person take on the product.
I hope we get to a point in which we can separate game criticism from reporting on the industry. Because to me they are mutually exclusive.
Game criticism revolves around a product. Product that has to be provided at the behest of the publisher in advance. That makes the for an enthusiast relationship and not a journalistic one. Which is not bad when it is recognized as such.
On the other hand I would like someone to take on reporting on the industry and the audience. The good or the bad. Hopefully someone finds a way to do it and be able to sustain the effort without being beholden by the same industry they want to report.
If that was true things have gotten too meta.
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