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[lorebringer]

I didn't think it was necessary, since I thought the image spoke for itself. No, Game Journalists shouldn't say "Hey readers, let's make more ads for one of the most hyped games this year".
This isn't "poking fun", this is playing right into the marketing machine. If you want your silly photoshop contests, do something like "Make a Destiny-style non-ad for a game that's already out"
But I can already tell by the wording of your post that this conversation probably won't lead anywhere. I honestly don't understand how one could see a major site asking it's readers to design ads for an upcoming game as "harmless" but to each his own I guess.

Well gamergate etc. isn't actually about real issues with games media such as feeding the hype machine for products advertised via media sites so nobody gives a shit. Now if they had some writeup about representation of minorities in Destiny then we'd be in business. That would then cross the line and we'd be on some firmer footing. It would be best if a woman wrote it as well I think.

 

[scoobidoo112]

To repeat: Gamergate started as abuse of Zoe Quinn, is still used as abuse of Zoe Quinn. Not much else was achieved.

If you type #GamerGate or #NotYourShield into twitter you will see thousands of men and women that share your thoughts and feelings. The vast majority of them are not bigots and neither are you. Take care.

Ok, so which one is it? Or are both sides just seeing what they want to see and does the answer lie somewhere in the middle?

 

[alstein]

http://honeybadgerbrigade.com/2014/09/07/gamergate-journalism-as-a-social-justice-war-game/

The article itself isn't much, but the comments do provide a glimpse into why some folks feel like they're being oppressed.

This is why this isn't going to go away - you've got two groups who are willing to be very militant and are willing to go to war. Eventually this time it will flame out but it will flare up again in a few weeks/months.

Of course, depending on where you stand, you'll assume those arguments are legitimate or not. I put serious question into most of them, but I know where the sentiment is coming from, because I've heard some complaints from a friend who isn't a misogynist, but does go to SF cons. They are having some of the same fights, but on a lower scale of publicity.

 

[GamerJM]

On stagnation versus progression:

If you write about games, you owe nothing to your audience. They read you because you speak to them on some level. This is all a part of finding writers that you love to read - my personal list includes people like Jenn Frank, Liz Ryerson, and Cara Ellison, among so many others - whether because they share your biases or because they challenge them. These writers owe nothing to you, the consumer. They often try to write in a way that they feel is consistent with their audience, but they have no burden to write things that you agree with.

[...]

If you don't like a writer, don't throw a fit and demand they change or you'll go elsewhere. Just read something else. The writer's onus is towards the medium as a whole, not towards your feelings.

This is a really interesting article and I agree with most of it, but I found one part about it really intriguing and that's the way it treats capitalism in relation to art. This is something I've seen that was sort of hinted at before; that the capitalistic nature of gaming culture is part of the reason it's "toxic," and it's something I sort of wanted more of an elaboration on because I don't entirely agree with it, but I finally found it here in this article.

It's certainly an interesting viewpoint, and I had never considered how capitalism can be dehumanizing to the artists who create games. That being said I'm not sure if I entirely agree with the sentiment, but it's something I had never thought about before, so I guess I have questions for people who might be more well-versed in the ethics of "art" and capitalism in general.

-Could it be argued that, by releasing a game with a price tag, the game developers (and artists) are partially responsible for reducing their games to commodities themselves by putting a price tag on their own game? I guess the counterargument to this is that this is a necessity since the developers releasing the games live in a capitalist society and need to release games with a price tag on them in order to support themselves.....but in that case I feel like they should be aware of the fact that their art is getting turned into a commodity (which doesn't make it alright, but eh). I'm not trying to shift the blame onto the developers and publishers by asking this question, I'm just genuinely curious.

-In other mediums, do many artists share the same sentiments about this? Like, take someone who collects Blu-Ray films, or records, or paintings, and then brags or talks about it; is this person considered anti-artistic within his or her own enthusiast circle? If not, should a gamer (or person who plays video games, whatever term you want to use) who collects games and brags/discusses his game collection out of admiration and dedication for the developers who created the games he owns not dehumanizing his art?

-What about anyone who gets caught up in the drama over a director not being able to produce a film because his last film underperformed in the box office, or the people who get caught up over drama over record producers? Aren't these capitalist politics directly related to what films/pieces of art get produced?

Again, these are all things I'm genuinely curious about, I've never looked into any of it before. Personally I enjoy the consumerist aspects of gaming; the rush of buying a game, collecting games, etc., even if it's admittedly shallow. But I also believe that games can be art, and have intrinsic artistic value. I guess this whole thing is just really puzzling to me since I respect gaming as both an art form, but also just as "toys," that I enjoy playing with.

Also, apologizes if I sort of veered too off-topic here. I feel that this topic is still related to "GamerGate," because the original articles denouncing the "gamer," were denouncing the idea of the gamer that is misogynistic, bigoted, etc., but they also seemed to be denouncing the greater idea of gaming culture, which is ingrained in hate but also this sort of capitalistic cycle of buying games as commodities.

 

[neurosisxeno]

I didn't think it was necessary, since I thought the image spoke for itself. No, Game Journalists shouldn't say "Hey readers, let's make more ads for one of the most hyped games this year".
This isn't "poking fun", this is playing right into the marketing machine. If you want your silly photoshop contests, do something like "Make a Destiny-style non-ad for a game that's already out"

Well considering there's not a whole lot going on in the world of Video Games on a Monday morning, I see no problem with it. Doesn't seem like it's playing into any "Marketing Machine" considering as you pointed out it's one of the most hyped games of the year. It has less to do with the game and more to do with Microsoft. Microsoft got around a contract which forbade them from advertising Destiny (labeled explicitly as a Video Game) on Xbox One, so they photoshopped a perfume bottle and advertised Destiny the fragerance on Xbox One.

If you look historically there are tons of these Photoshop competitions and they regularly feature games that have been out for months or years. It's not like the article is "Microsoft Presents: Photoshop Contest Make a Destiny Ad for Destiny on the Microsoft Xbox One available at Gamestop". The only reason it was featured was because of a relevant action Microsoft took.

But I can already tell by the wording of your post that this conversation probably won't lead anywhere. I honestly don't understand how one could see a major site asking it's readers to design ads for an upcoming game as "harmless" but to each his own I guess.

You'd have to live under a rock not to know what Destiny was, and as I mentioned above it was only chosen because of something Microsoft did that was relevant within the past week. Personally I have always considered Kotaku to be a "Gaming Tabloid" more than a major site. Considering half their articles are about goofy crap in Japan or their ever enjoyable Snaktaku Reviews, I consider this to be one of the less offensive things they've done honestly.

 

[Sneds]

I wonder how Boogie is going to position himself from now on

"Logical feminism"

Oh God. Boogie...

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Oh God. Boogie...

:'|| after the stuff Mumei posted man..

 

[zeldablue]

This is a really interesting article and I agree with most of it, but I found one part about it really intriguing and that's the way it treats capitalism in relation to art. This is something I've seen that was sort of hinted at before; that the capitalistic nature of gaming culture is part of the reason it's "toxic," and it's something I sort of wanted more of an elaboration on because I don't entirely agree with it, but I finally found it here in this article.

It's certainly an interesting viewpoint, and I had never considered how capitalism can be dehumanizing to the artists who create games. That being said I'm not sure if I entirely agree with the sentiment, but it's something I had never thought about before, so I guess I have questions for people who might be more well-versed in the ethics of "art" and capitalism in general.

-Could it be argued that, by releasing a game with a price tag, the game developers (and artists) are partially responsible for reducing their games to commodities themselves by putting a price tag on their own game? I guess the counterargument to this is that this is a necessity since the developers releasing the games live in a capitalist society and need to release games with a price tag on them in order to support themselves.....but in that case I feel like they should be aware of the fact that their art is getting turned into a commodity (which doesn't make it alright, but eh). I'm not trying to shift the blame onto the developers and publishers by asking this question, I'm just genuinely curious.

-In other mediums, do many artists share the same sentiments about this? Like, take someone who collects Blu-Ray films, or records, or paintings, and then brags or talks about it; is this person considered anti-artistic within his or her own enthusiast circle? If not, should a gamer (or person who plays video games, whatever term you want to use) who collects games and brags/discusses his game collection out of admiration and dedication for the developers who created the games he owns not dehumanizing his art?

-What about anyone who gets caught up in the drama over a director not being able to produce a film because his last film underperformed in the box office, or the people who get caught up over drama over record producers? Aren't these capitalist politics directly related to what films/pieces of art get produced?

Again, these are all things I'm genuinely curious about, I've never looked into any of it before. Personally I enjoy the consumerist aspects of gaming; the rush of buying a game, collecting games, etc., even if it's admittedly shallow. But I also believe that games can be art, and have intrinsic artistic value. I guess this whole thing is just really puzzling to me since I respect gaming as both an art form, but also just as "toys," that I enjoy playing with.

Also, apologizes if I sort of veered too off-topic here. I feel that this topic is still related to "GamerGate," because the original articles denouncing the "gamer," were denouncing the idea of the gamer that is misogynistic, bigoted, etc., but they also seemed to be denouncing the greater idea of gaming culture, which is ingrained in hate but also this sort of capitalistic cycle of buying games as commodities.

A bit unrelated, but Nintendo has this problem all the time. They have all these ideas and new game mechanics...but they never do as well as the typical Mario stuff. Whenever they deviate with Zelda and try something "different," they lose so much of the fanbase.

Nintendo has this problem where they need to make money, but they'd rather just make what they want to make. Iwata has allowed their developers to use artistic freedom...but at the cost of losing their fans.

Commercial art literally means doing what sells. Art means doing what is in your heart. The best thing to do is try to balance what you want to do, with what sells.

If your target demographic likes the idea of raped women and human trafficking...then that's what needs to be in your game. Regardless of if that's what you wanted or not. At the end of the day, the majority always wins in this industry. Which means the minority (women, ethnic minorities) always, always lose.

 

[eyeless]

I wonder how Boogie is going to position himself from now on

"Logical feminism"

From what I've read of hers her ideals about feminism is similar to mine. That women are humans and men are humans and therefore we are equal in every way.

In her views that deviate from this, I cannot say I know them or support them, but in this view of hers I agree wholeheartedly.

you put her in your "top five feminists" (i would love to hear who your other four are, please post them) and declared her as championing "the logical version" of feminism in opposition to feminists whose views differ championing "illogical" feminism all based on the fact that you only read enough about her views to learn she believes men and women are equal? in what way is the belief that men and women are equal not held by the "opposing schools of feminism"? how low is your bar for favorite feminists if all you need to learn is that someone believes men and women are equal puts them into your top five? is that not a predominant view across feminists?

your top five "logical version" feminist is an anti-feminist. she is a feminist in the way a black pundit they get on fox news to blame the problems of the black community on the black community and criticize black activism is a black activist. she is a feminist in the way a gay conservative pundit they get on fox news to oppose marriage equality and criticize gay activism is a gay activist. but you say now that actually you somehow found out only one fact about her, that she thinks men and women are equal, and decided to champion her as "one of the good ones." you didn't bother to even google her or look at the twitter you were linking? her feminism is that feminism is unnecessary, is that your view?

maybe since you publicly endorsed her brand of "feminism" and claimed she was championing the "logical feminism" you could take a second to google her and look at her twitter and then come back here and give your opinion on her views, considering she is now retweeting you. do you agree with her views, is there anything you disagree with? if you agree with them, swell, everyone has their opinion, but maybe you could make yours clear, instead of just claiming ignorance when challenged on the things you say or endorsements you make.

and i would really love to hear who your other top feminists are.

 

[scoobidoo112]

Oh God. Boogie...

:'|| after the stuff Mumei posted man..

snip

Having different views on feminism does not make Boogie a bad person. Please stop this continues character assassination over "what branch of feminism is the correct one".

 

[Sneds]

From what I've read of hers her ideals about feminism is similar to mine. That women are humans and men are humans and therefore we are equal in every way.

In her views that deviate from this, I cannot say I know them or support them, but in this view of hers I agree wholeheartedly.

All feminists believe that women are humans and the equal of men. It's sad that you seem to have bought into, and are propagating, the myth that feminism is full of women wanting to keep men down.

Having different views on feminism does not make Boogie a bad person. Please stop this continues character assassination over "what branch of feminism is the correct one".

I never called Boogie a bad person. I don't think that he is a bad person. But I am disappointed that he has come out as a supporter of Sommers given her views.

 

[neoemonk]

You still associate with a movement that was originated in a focused attack on Zoe Quinn with the veil of "games journalism transparency" as a smoke screen. Trying to redirect the earnest people that rallied around that movement unknowingly of its origins is commendable but people that know where it started, people that know the damage it made, and people that know the hate and maleficence behind it won't ever take this serious. I won't. And I'm a gamer too.

I really apologize if this has been covered already, I'm trying to get up to speed on all of these events. I don't really know what #notyourshield means. I understand things started with Zoe Quinn, but she's not the journalist, right? If this is about journalistic integrity, why does everything focus on her and not on the actual journalist?

I remember the Kane and Lynch debacle that led to the firing of Jeff Gerstmann. No one attacked the publisher. People were pissed that Gamespot would take money for review scores (rightly so) so why would people be upset with the developer in this case? Be pissed off at the guy that was accepting payment (in whatever form) for positive reviews of a game.

 

[neurosisxeno]

A bit unrelated, but Nintendo has this problem all the time. They have all these ideas and new game mechanics...but they never do as well as the typical Mario stuff. Whenever they deviate with Zelda and try something "different," they lose so much of the fanbase.

That's not necessarily true. Metroid Prime was a massive deviation from its predecessors and is considered a classic already. Zelda has had many other issues beside minor deviations. The recent entry on 3DS got rave reviews from fans and critics because it managed to capture the spirit of older Zelda games while introducing new mechanics that were original and interesting.

If your target demographic likes the idea of raped women and human trafficking...then that's what needs to be in your game. Regardless of if that's what you wanted or not. At the end of the day, the majority always wins in this industry. Which means the minority (women, ethnic minorities) always, always lose.

I don't know of people who like those things but you shouldn't assume they are included in story telling exclusively because the audience likes them. They are actual things that happen in the real world, and if you want Video Games to be treated as an artistic medium the same way Music, Literature, and Films you have to accept that sometimes stories will include themes you don't like.

 

[shootfast]

snip

We are dealing with gamergate not boogies view on feminism which also he does not need to defend to you on this forum,.You'll probably not change his view anyway, his wife's favourite feminist is CHSommers.

 

[Unhandled Exception]

Having different views on feminism does not make Boogie a bad person. Please stop this continues character assassination over "what branch of feminism is the correct one".

I can't say which branch of feminism is the correct one, but one that tries to minimize the entire issue of why feminism is necessary -- that's definitely a compromised branch.

 

[MacNille]

Can someone PM a quick rundown what has happened now? Has been at the university and I have not be able to keep up looking at what happened (something with the IGF I have heard).

 

[Sneds]

We are dealing with gamergate not boogies view on feminism which also he does not need to defend to you on this forum,.You'll probably not change his view anyway, his wife's favourite feminist is CHSommers.

Whether it's off topic or not is for the mod's to decide but Sommers is often brought up by #GamerGate supporters as an example of why they can't be misogynist - "look we have a feminist on our side!" And #GamerGate supporters tend to praise Sommers for being 'logical' as opposed to those other illogical feminists (ie mainstream feminists) to lead credence to their campaign. So I would argue that Sommers and boogie's support for her is relevant.

And boogie doesn't have to defend himself here but people are also free to criticise him.

 

[scoobidoo112]

Can someone PM a quick rundown what has happened now? Has been at the university and I have not be able to keep up looking at what happened (something with the IGF I have heard).

The whole IGF thing is laid out in this "announcement" by LordKat:

http://www.twitch.tv/lordkat/c/5082022

 

[zeldablue]

That's not necessarily true. Metroid Prime was a massive deviation from its predecessors and is considered a classic already. Zelda has had many other issues beside minor deviations. The recent entry on 3DS got rave reviews from fans and critics because it managed to capture the spirit of older Zelda games while introducing new mechanics that were original and interesting.



I don't know of people who like those things but you shouldn't assume they are included in story telling exclusively because the audience likes them. They are actual things that happen in the real world, and if you want Video Games to be treated as an artistic medium the same way Music, Literature, and Films you have to accept that sometimes stories will include themes you don't like.

Nothing wrong with showing anything. (However it would be nice if rape and human trafficking was used in a way that didn't just incentivize violence towards enemies.)

I'm saying the focus testing always wins out. Unfortunately focus testing makes everything beautifully average. (Look at how Aiden from watchdogs went from unique looking to cookie-cutter)

There are a lot of interviews from Nintendo, especially Aonuma, struggling with his vision of Zelda not matching the fans. Nintendo is it's own publisher, so it can take its own risks with stranger titles like Splatoon and Pikmin. Pikmin, Metroid Prime and a ton of others don't sell well at all. Especially compared to Mario Kart or New Super Mario bros. Other developers don't have that privilege, they have to make sure their game will turn a profit when they appeal to their publisher. That means they need to prove it will sell...and it'll sell by being like the other games that have sold well.

 

[eyeless]

Having different views on feminism does not make Boogie a bad person. Please stop this continues character assassination over "what branch of feminism is the correct one".

man you're gonna be psyched. check this shit out: i didn't call him a bad person. and leigh alexander, video game enthusiast, didn't call you a misogynist for playing video games. crazy eh. you can all go home!

 

[Noaloha]

If you're going to watch that LordKat stuff, at least do so in tandem with this piece from RPS (a site that is firmly viewed by LordKat et al as 'on the side of the enemy') written back in 2012, then take a moment to let the uglier #gamergate proponents' declaration of fan triumph in the face of journalistic ineptitude sink in.

 

[boogie2988]

All feminists believe that women are humans and the equal of men. It's sad that you seem to have bought into, and are propagating, the myth that feminism is full of women wanting to keep men down.



I never called Boogie a bad person. I don't think that he is a bad person. But I am disappointed that he has come out as a supporter of Sommers given her views.

No, I do not believe that. you have put words into my mouth. I believe there are multiple forms of modern day femenism but I clearly do not believe in some mythical misandryst myth either. stop implying that I do.

 

[Eidan]

http://honeybadgerbrigade.com/2014/09/07/gamergate-journalism-as-a-social-justice-war-game/

The article itself isn't much, but the comments do provide a glimpse into why some folks feel like they're being oppressed.

This is why this isn't going to go away - you've got two groups who are willing to be very militant and are willing to go to war. Eventually this time it will flame out but it will flare up again in a few weeks/months.

Of course, depending on where you stand, you'll assume those arguments are legitimate or not. I put serious question into most of them, but I know where the sentiment is coming from, because I've heard some complaints from a friend who isn't a misogynist, but does go to SF cons. They are having some of the same fights, but on a lower scale of publicity.

Hm, none of those comments seemed particularly insightful, nor did any of them tell us anything we didn't know. A bunch if people whose identity is strongly linked to media they consume are reacting poorly to that media being criticized on issues of gender and race. Concerted efforts to harass and force women out of the hobby ensue. Consider themselves "oppressed", an assertion so moronic, so absolutely divorced from reality, that it can only come from a person who has never, and likely will never taste real oppression in their entire life.

 

[Sneds]

No, I do not believe that. you have put words into my mouth. I believe there are multiple forms of modern day femenism but I clearly do not believe in some mythical misandryst myth either. stop implying that I do.

I didn't put words into your mouth, I said that you seem to have bought into a myth and are propagating that myth. If you are supporting Hommer's writing then that is the case.

 

[Mumei]

Having different views on feminism does not make Boogie a bad person. Please stop this continues character assassination over "what branch of feminism is the correct one".

You should reread MHWilliams' response to you:

Why do some people suddenly act as if you´re Boogie´s disappointed parents? The dude has been nothing but kind, intelligent and civil and yet you're willing to instantly vilify him because his opinions on feminism differ from yours. Pathetic. You have no respect for people, only those who parrot your own opinions for you. Very sad to see this. Show some respect for the guy.

EDIT: More specific

Those quotes seem to be on the low scale of villification.

Boogie in this case has championed the views of Christina H. Sommers, an activist whose views some in the thread find... wrong. That he has done this is his right.

And we have the right to be disappointed in him for it.

Holding disagreeable views while being nice doesn't soften the first part. Calmly and moderately being racist (random choice, not related to Boogie or Sommers) doesn't change the fact that you're being racist.

And boogie, if you're championing Christina Hoff Sommers, who is best known for Who Stole Feminism?: How Women Have Betrayed Women and, more germane to this point, The War Against Boys: How Misguided Feminism Is Harming Our Young Men, it's not surprising that someone might think you believe that feminism has managed the feat of betraying both women and being harmful to men.

 

[eyeless]

No, I do not believe that. you have put words into my mouth. I believe there are multiple forms of modern day femenism but I clearly do not believe in some mythical misandryst myth either. stop implying that I do.

sommers does, your top 5 favorite feminist whose views you describe as "logical feminism". please respond to my post if you would like to give us your views beyond "men and women are the same" so people can stop misinterpreting you and putting words in your mouth. you implied that you agreed that "feminism is full of women wanting to keep men down" by explicitly and enthusiastically endorsing someone who does hold that view.

here is my post again, i hope you can respond

you put her in your "top five feminists" (i would love to hear who your other four are, please post them) and declared her as championing "the logical version" of feminism in opposition to feminists whose views differ championing "illogical" feminism all based on the fact that you only read enough about her views to learn she believes men and women are equal? in what way is the belief that men and women are equal not held by the "opposing schools of feminism"? how low is your bar for favorite feminists if all you need to learn is that someone believes men and women are equal puts them into your top five? is that not a predominant view across feminists?

your top five "logical version" feminist is an anti-feminist. she is a feminist in the way a black pundit they get on fox news to blame the problems of the black community on the black community and criticize black activism is a black activist. she is a feminist in the way a gay conservative pundit they get on fox news to oppose marriage equality and criticize gay activism is a gay activist. but you say now that actually you somehow found out only one fact about her, that she thinks men and women are equal, and decided to champion her as "one of the good ones." you didn't bother to even google her or look at the twitter you were linking? her feminism is that feminism is unnecessary, is that your view?

maybe since you publicly endorsed her brand of "feminism" and claimed she was championing the "logical feminism" you could take a second to google her and look at her twitter and then come back here and give your opinion on her views, considering she is now retweeting you. do you agree with her views, is there anything you disagree with? if you agree with them, swell, everyone has their opinion, but maybe you could make yours clear, instead of just claiming ignorance when challenged on the things you say or endorsements you make.

and i would really love to hear who your other top feminists are.

 

[Corpekata]

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/134934/the_making_of_fez_the_breaking_of_.php?page=2

Old intereview with Phil Fish where he goes over his involvement with the Indie Fund. Relevant bits past the picture.

"We were the prototype to the Indie Fund. Those guys funded us for about a year and a half before the whole thing just kind of fell apart. They had a lot of tension internally on their side, because, like, there were 17 of them, and then the seven of them left and did the real Indie Fund. Our business guy at Polytron ended up leaving us, and they were just panicked about that. And the whole thing, yeah, it lost attention, just kind of exploded, lost our funding. And so the second time we lose our funding is like a month or two of just panic and nothing.

And then finally this company in Montreal, another studio called Trapdoor, with 15 employees or so -- a lot more serious than we are -- came to us. It's the guy who used to run Gameloft in Montreal. After eight years or so he got really sick of making just clones and terrible iPhone games, and started his own company."

According to this they didn't even have a financial stake in the company anymore by the time they could've been all sneaky indie cabal manipulating.

 

[boogie2988]

you put her in your "top five feminists" (i would love to hear who your other four are, please post them) and declared her as championing "the logical version" of feminism in opposition to feminists whose views differ championing "illogical" feminism all based on the fact that you only read enough about her views to learn she believes men and women are equal? in what way is the belief that men and women are equal not held by the "opposing schools of feminism"? how low is your bar for favorite feminists if all you need to learn is that someone believes men and women are equal puts them into your top five? is that not a predominant view across feminists?

your top five "logical version" feminist is an anti-feminist. she is a feminist in the way a black pundit they get on fox news to blame the problems of the black community on the black community and criticize black activism is a black activist. she is a feminist in the way a gay conservative pundit they get on fox news to oppose marriage equality and criticize gay activism is a gay activist. but you say now that actually you somehow found out only one fact about her, that she thinks men and women are equal, and decided to champion her as "one of the good ones." you didn't bother to even google her or look at the twitter you were linking? her feminism is that feminism is unnecessary, is that your view?

maybe since you publicly endorsed her brand of "feminism" and claimed she was championing the "logical feminism" you could take a second to google her and look at her twitter and then come back here and give your opinion on her views, considering she is now retweeting you. do you agree with her views, is there anything you disagree with? if you agree with them, swell, everyone has their opinion, but maybe you could make yours clear, instead of just claiming ignorance when challenged on the things you say or endorsements you make.

and i would really love to hear who your other top feminists are.

My other top feminists are not women you would know, but I'll put them in order anyways.

1) my mother
2) my wife
3) my ex-friend carla who hated me for my blundering when it came to feminism but taught me a lot
4) her husband Michael weaver with whom my friendship also ended due to my ignorance, but got me started rebuilding my belief structure about women.

If you want to know my more famous feminist choices I would include suzzane collins, sinead o'connor, joan of arc, ellen degeneres... and if its ok to list men I rather enjoyed the way Anthony Birch approached the topic in his portions of Borderlands.

But you are right, I did not laboriously vet her before making a tweet that would hopefully draw more attention to her. I suppose I should have done that. lesson learned.

that said, I still believe that the logical version of feminism is that "all women are humans and all men are humans and all humans are equal." Much deviation from that seems less logical to me and does not qualify my endorsement.

Though you encouraged me to vet her now and in doing so I discovered this about her:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equity_and_gender_feminism

Sommers describes equity feminism as an ideology rooted in classical liberalism, and that aims for full civil and legal equality for women. Experimental psychologist Steven Pinker expands on Sommers to write, "Equity feminism is a moral doctrine about equal treatment that makes no commitments regarding open empirical issues in psychology or biology."[2]
Sommers contends that "Most American women subscribe philosophically to the older 'First Wave' kind of feminism whose main goal is equity, especially in politics and education".[1]

Now that sounds pretty fucking logical to me.

However, Sommers also argues that equity feminism is a minority position in academia, formalized feminist theory, and the organized feminist movement as a whole, who tend to embrace gender feminism.

Here is where her and I differ because as my understanding of gender feminism applies, I do not believe that the majority of modern day feminists preach this. Though those that day, while often perceived as extremists, do have a good point and these are things that need to be discussed.

so is Sommers bad because she coined the phrase 'gender feminism'? I do not know.

But any person who will preach liberal feminism, which is the exact same kind of feminism my mother taught me was the dream, I'm going to have to like whether they're 'bad' or not.

My initial infatuation with the woman, albeit short lived, was when i saw that she too supported liberal style feminism

If this makes me a bad person then this makes me feel very good to be bad >

 

[boogie2988]

I didn't put words into your mouth, I said that you seem to have bought into a myth and are propagating that myth. If you are supporting Hommer's writing then that is the case.

see my previous post about sommers but I actually do believe she is right in that there are several types of modern day feminism though I still reject your notion that feminism is full of women wanting to keep men down. I disagree with that entirely.

while I will admit that I believe that are a very few fringe women who feel this way they do not even make up a notable fraction of the movement

 

[alstein]

Hm, none of those comments seemed particularly insightful, nor did any of them tell us anything we didn't know. A bunch if people whose identity is strongly linked to media they consume are reacting poorly to that media being criticized on issues of gender and race. Concerted efforts to harass and force women out of the hobby ensue. Consider themselves "oppressed", an assertion so moronic, so absolutely divorced from reality, that it can only come from a person who has never, and likely will never taste real oppression in their entire life.

It just shows how their feeling of oppression are strong enough that they won't go away, whether you agree with them or not (and I don't). This is going to be two groups continuing to shout over each other- and neither side is going to care much about civil discourse.

 

[Yrael]

Did you get my private message earlier Boogie? (I just explained a bit about CHS and her views in relation to feminism.)

http://honeybadgerbrigade.com/2014/09/07/gamergate-journalism-as-a-social-justice-war-game/

The article itself isn't much, but the comments do provide a glimpse into why some folks feel like they're being oppressed.

This is why this isn't going to go away - you've got two groups who are willing to be very militant and are willing to go to war. Eventually this time it will flame out but it will flare up again in a few weeks/months.

Of course, depending on where you stand, you'll assume those arguments are legitimate or not. I put serious question into most of them, but I know where the sentiment is coming from, because I've heard some complaints from a friend who isn't a misogynist, but does go to SF cons. They are having some of the same fights, but on a lower scale of publicity.

Ah yes, these folks.

 

[Eidan]

It just shows how their feeling of oppression are strong enough that they won't go away, whether you agree with them or not (and I don't). This is going to be two groups continuing to shout over each other- and neither side is going to care much about civil discourse.

So basically it'll be like everything else politically. I can live with it. I personally believe one side is clearly in the right, and the other side is clearly in the wrong. That these guys' feelings of oppression won't go away isn't shocking, and I'm not even really sure what one could do to educate them. It's hard to make a fool change course.

 

[boogie2988]

Did you get my private message earlier Boogie? (I just explained a bit about CHS and her views in relation to feminism.)



Ah yes, these folks.

just went and checked that and based on all things you provided I'll be glad to remove Sommers from my list of favorite feminists. Maybe that means the witch hunt can end since it seems really, really important to people.

Chalk it up again to my quick reactions, lack of sleep, and ignorance on the topic.

Now maybe that particular little witch hunt can end and certain people can begin anew finding a way to discredit me.

 

[Mael]

just went and checked that and based on all things you provided I'll be glad to remove Sommers from my list of favorite feminists. Maybe that means the witch hunt can end since it seems really, really important to people.

Chalk it up again to my quick reactions, lack of sleep, and ignorance on the topic.

Now maybe that particular little witch hunt can end and certain people can begin anew finding a way to discredit me.

There's something I don't get.
Why react so quickly?
Having read you here you seem to be aware of the limit of your knowledge on this particular subject.
Why take such a clear position on a subject you recognize your limits?

 

[axisofweevils]

Good piece on RPS, responding to this issue. "Videogames are for everybody."

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/09/08/videogames-are-for-everybody/

 

[zeldablue]

If this just becomes a battlefield for feminism vs. anti feminism/MRA then...I dunno.

I thought this was about corruption and journalism. :S

I think both movements ask important questions, but when they fight, I'm really not into it.

 

[boogie2988]

There's something I don't get.
Why react so quickly?
Having read you here you seem to be aware of the limit of your knowledge on this particular subject.
Why take such a clear position on a subject you recognize your limits?

because as i've said in this thread, #gamergate is destroying me mentally and physically.
I've not slept well and not thought that clearly and feel constantly under attack for simply having an opinion and expressing it. its triggered my depression, my anxiety, and most recently my compulsive over eating disorder.

I am absolutely bound to make mistakes at this point. Its a fucking miracle I havent made worse ones.

All I want is for gaming journalists an gamergate to come to some sort of agreement and for this to finally be over. I know its not going to happen and I know this is going to kill me, but I'm praying for it none the less. Not just for me but the countless others (obviously including zoe) who are going through shit right now.

Until then I feel the only way i'm going to cling to my sanity is to continue expressing my desires and demands for empathy and sanity in this debacle and if that's what kills me, its better than a heart attack 2 years down the road anyways.

 

[mattp]

#NotYourShield - We Are Gamers

this is embarrassing

 

[marrec]

Good piece on RPS, responding to this issue. "Videogames are for everybody."

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/09/08/videogames-are-for-everybody/

Yep. I've been reading through it since it was posted.

Found this bit of particular interest:

The accusations for our corruption have focused on a claim that favourable reviews/coverage were written after a writer was alleged to be in a sexual relationship with a developer. Except, no such articles exist, making the claim nonsensical. It has been refuted. Nevertheless, the claim has been stated repeatedly, and with confidence, which seems to be enough to have some people believe it. Despite it not being true. The demands that we address this, and condemnations that we are being “silent” over it, are therefore basically demands to defend ourselves against a crime we didn’t commit.

In the absence of actual corruption the people behind #gamergate have no qualms about literally making shit up. This has happened time and time again. There is, to date, zero evidence of actual corruption stemming from the incident that started this entire debacle. And yet here we are weeks later still talking as if this is about anything other than a violent reaction to progressive voices in games media and development.

Of course, well-meaning and properly concerned people have been duped into believe this is about corruption and journalism which is, in some ways, just as sad as the abuse going on because the people naively holding up virtual placards with no ill intentions have to make the decision to either willingly continue to support this farce in the face of articles like the one from RPS or accept that they were duped and 'pay the price' for their involvement with a bit of their pride.

It's time for the well meaning to move on in this silly civil war and detach from the malicious. Corruption in journalism isn't going to be solved by a corrupted hashtag movement astroturfed by internet misogynists.

 

[Unhandled Exception]

Boogie, you're a good dude, I've known that since your first video popped up on youtube. People make mistakes. Really though, the biggest mistake you're making is allowing this whole thing to effect you so much. I know that you're in a much more public position than a lot of us regarding this and people probably expect you to have an opinion and share that opinion.

But you don't have to engage. You don't.

Take a breather, man. Your well being is more important than a social issue about video games, and I say that as someone who has games in my life as much as you do.

 

[Mael]

because as i've said in this thread, #gamergate is destroying me mentally and physically.
I've not slept well and not thought that clearly and feel constantly under attack for simply having an opinion and expressing it. its triggered my depression, my anxiety, and most recently my compulsive over eating disorder.

I am absolutely bound to make mistakes at this point. Its a fucking miracle I havent made worse ones.

All I want is for gaming journalists an gamergate to come to some sort of agreement and for this to finally be over. I know its not going to happen and I know this is going to kill me, but I'm praying for it none the less. Not just for me but the countless others (obviously including zoe) who are going through shit right now.

Until then I feel the only way i'm going to cling to my sanity is to continue expressing my desires and demands for empathy and sanity in this debacle and if that's what kills me, its better than a heart attack 2 years down the road anyways.

I think I get your point but I really think you should get out of this with your health intact.
At this point people on both sides (and the more scumy proponent of #gamergate certainly) don't care about who they hurt and the consequences of their action.

I get that if every sane people leave the field, it'll only leave the insane claiming victory but at this point the only thing they win is that this hobby will be viewed as the juvenile entertainment exploited by big corp that anyone with half a brain would avoid.

I really think you should take a break before it becomes more serious, your health is more important than that.

 

[boogie2988]

Boogie, you're a good dude, I've known that since your first video popped up on youtube. People make mistakes. Really though, the biggest mistake you're making is allowing this whole thing to effect you so much. I know that you're in a much more public position than a lot of us regarding this and people probably expect you to have an opinion and share that opinion.

But you don't have to engage. You don't.

Take a breather, man. Your well being is more important than a social issue about video games, and I say that as someone who has games in my life as much as you do.

I absolutely do have to engage any defamation of my character. That's one of my biggest flaws. Every time i reload this thread I just keep hoping no one is talking about me but that hasn't happened in like 3 days now.

But I'm trying really, really hard not to at this point. But I'm definitely in the deep end of the pool right now. I'm hoping going to the big destiny launch at my local gamestop and playing the game will serve as some sort of relief

Just looking forward to the day that all this is over and we can get back to whats important; playing games with our friends, families, and loved ones.

 

[eyeless]

My other top feminists are not women you would know, but I'll put them in order anyways.

1) my mother
2) my wife
3) my ex-friend carla who hated me for my blundering when it came to feminism but taught me a lot
4) her husband Michael weaver with whom my friendship also ended due to my ignorance, but got me started rebuilding my belief structure about women.

If you want to know my more famous feminist choices I would include suzzane collins, sinead o'connor, joan of arc, ellen degeneres... and if its ok to list men I rather enjoyed the way Anthony Birch approached the topic in his portions of Borderlands.

But you are right, I did not laboriously vet her before making a tweet that would hopefully draw more attention to her. I suppose I should have done that. lesson learned.

that said, I still believe that the logical version of feminism is that "all women are humans and all men are humans and all humans are equal." Much deviation from that seems less logical to me and does not qualify my endorsement.

Though you encouraged me to vet her now and in doing so I discovered this about her:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equity_and_gender_feminism



Now that sounds pretty fucking logical to me.



Here is where her and I differ because as my understanding of gender feminism applies, I do not believe that the majority of modern day feminists preach this. Though those that day, while often perceived as extremists, do have a good point and these are things that need to be discussed.

so is Sommers bad because she coined the phrase 'gender feminism'? I do not know.

But any person who will preach liberal feminism, which is the exact same kind of feminism my mother taught me was the dream, I'm going to have to like whether they're 'bad' or not.

My initial infatuation with the woman, albeit short lived, was when i saw that she too supported liberal style feminism

If this makes me a bad person then this makes me feel very good to be bad >

what is the opposing illogical version of feminism that would cause the only "feminist" in your top five that you don't know personally to be someone who is a well known anti-feminist?

as i said, the point of sommers feminism is to say "my feminism is the support of legal equality of the sexes, oh hey look we already have that, so all this feminism you feminists are doing isn't necessary"

considering you publicly endorsed her on twitter maybe you could then unendorse her now that you've looked up her views and found that you don't agree with them, assuming you don't? you called her views "logical feminism" because she thinks men and women are equal but you would agree then that mainstream feminism is not in opposition to the notion of equality of the sexes at all? and so to give your endorsement and bring attention to someone whose views are that feminism is hostile to men would seem to me be irresponsible, especially when trying to bring a message of diversity and acceptance among gamers, and to show that gamers and #gamergate is not about attacking feminism.

i don't see any reason why this wouldn't be the logical thing to do if your message is as previously stated.

the reaction to your tweet of endorsement was interesting, considering i assume your message was that gamers aren't anti-feminist, hopefully you're not worried that a significant portion of your audience would look disapprovingly at an un-endorsement of her and her views

it seems the responsible thing to do, considering your large audience and how toxic this whole thing has gotten, so as not to tie your message and #gamergate to anti-feminist rhetoric. an un-endorsement in a neogaf thread alone means little when the endorsement was made on your twitter account and still stands

by the way, i've watched your videos before, always thought you were a good dude, just would like to clear up some things that i thought could possibly be problematic

 

[marrec]

I absolutely do have to engage any defamation of my character. That's one of my biggest flaws. Every time i reload this thread I just keep hoping no one is talking about me but that hasn't happened in like 3 days now.

But I'm trying really, really hard not to at this point. But I'm definitely in the deep end of the pool right now. I'm hoping going to the big destiny launch at my local gamestop and playing the game will serve as some sort of relief

Just looking forward to the day that all this is over and we can get back to whats important; playing games with our friends, families, and loved ones.

It can be over today. Again, games journalism isn't going to be solved by a haphazard hashtag that's rooted in malicious abuse and bitterness. It's going to be solved by open communication and transparency.

About Destiny though, you can already see the desperation on Twitter to livestream it. People want to play video games again and get over this manufactured outrage.

 

[Widge]

All I want is for gaming journalists an gamergate to come to some sort of agreement and for this to finally be over. I know its not going to happen and I know this is going to kill me, but I'm praying for it none the less.

It's not going to happen as you say.

There is a shitstorm stirred up by people who a) don't know how journalism works, b) the relationships and culture of the journalistic world and the media they cover, c) people who are willing to accept baseless hearsay as fact, spreading it around - literally the worst form of chinese whispers you get. There is a population out there treating what is said from some channels as sources of fact, and others to be discredited.

We, gamers, are not reasonable people. Look at the Mass Effect 3 ending, Microsoft's Tomb Raider exclusivity window (which I got involved in), we absolutely *love* to get up in arms and blame, attack either developers, publishers or reviewers. Absolutely anything bar turning the gaze inwards to look at our own conduct.

The worst thing about it is the confused nature of gamergate. It is allegedly morphed into a beast where it is about journalistic transparency and honesty, yet there is also this current of "no more social themed topics about games" mixed in there. Is it one, is it the other, is it both? This is why it is inherently dangerous to stoke the fire. For all the perceived good on transparency that is trying to be pushed through, there is a massive drive to silence the media from talking about games in a social aspect. That is wrong, and if this is really also about rallying about the perception of gamers, then acceptance may as well get chucked out the window at that point and we can find ourselves filed alongside creationist crazies.

I don't want that. I wasn't slighted by the gaming press (who have always qualified their attacks at a toxic minority) but I damn well am going to become tarnished by this. Literally is a burning # in the ground that shouts "look at us! We are regressionist, unreasonable and totally hysterical!".

 

[Widge]

just keep hoping no one is talking about me

Told you man, your face is plastered on a jpeg as "people to listen to", you've been pushed up there whether you are willing or not, purely for your opening gambit on #gamergate.

The biggest thing that is being said is to watch out for the stuff people are getting you to attach your approval to. It's like some sort of royal seal right now.

 

[boogie2988]

what is the opposing illogical version of feminism that would cause the only "feminist" in your top five that you don't know personally to be someone who is a well known anti-feminist?

First:

Secondly, the 'illogical' form of feminism I am referring to, to me, is about any type of feminism that does not search for and strive for true equality. Any time I ever see things like "Men must protect women" it confuses me. Whenever I see the very few fringe women who call men "white male scum" it confuses me. Any time someone uses the term 'shitlord' it confuses me.

It doesn't seem very logical or very productive to me. Whereas striving for actual equality, both legally and socially, seems VERY logical to me and that's what Sommers called "liberal feminism" and that's the first time I've ever heard anyone put it that way and that's what lead to my endorsement.

as for all of her other rhetoric that i'm learning about, no thanks.

 

[zeldablue]

D...
Don't unendorse her.

The fact is that feminism still causing huge rushes of antagonizing behavior. (Especially in the STEM category) And that reaction is because of deeply ingrained prejudice that is still very real and alive. Men and women are pretty much equal, I agree, but the way we are socialized totally screws with our minds. This makes everything seem fine until someone steps out of place.

Just try to stay open minded, and don't let either side mess with your heart.

 

[Vlade]

I absolutely do have to engage any defamation of my character. That's one of my biggest flaws. Every time i reload this thread I just keep hoping no one is talking about me but that hasn't happened in like 3 days now.

But I'm trying really, really hard not to at this point. But I'm definitely in the deep end of the pool right now. I'm hoping going to the big destiny launch at my local gamestop and playing the game will serve as some sort of relief

Just looking forward to the day that all this is over and we can get back to whats important; playing games with our friends, families, and loved ones.

I think you are internalizing a lot of this when you need to remember a lot of people are not. Discussing feminism without the context of an audience, personal situation, and what is government action leaves it so that you might be discussing personal ideals while others are looking at the state of the nation.

You might be thinking of useful motivation for a person, but would be awful ideology for a nation, or even outsiders.

Thanks for hoping in here to talk!

 

[boogie2988]

It's not going to happen as you say.

There is a shitstorm stirred up by people who a) don't know how journalism works, b) the relationships and culture of the journalistic world and the media they cover, c) people who are willing to accept baseless hearsay as fact, spreading it around - literally the worst form of chinese whispers you get. There is a population out there treating what is said from some channels as sources of fact, and others to be discredited.

We, gamers, are not reasonable people. Look at the Mass Effect 3 ending, Microsoft's Tomb Raider exclusivity window (which I got involved in), we absolutely *love* to get up in arms and blame, attack either developers, publishers or reviewers. Absolutely anything bar turning the gaze inwards to look at our own conduct.

The worst thing about it is the confused nature of gamergate. It is allegedly morphed into a beast where it is about journalistic transparency and honesty, yet there is also this current of "no more social themed topics about games" mixed in there. Is it one, is it the other, is it both? This is why it is inherently dangerous to stoke the fire. For all the perceived good on transparency that is trying to be pushed through, there is a massive drive to silence the media from talking about games in a social aspect. That is wrong, and if this is really also about rallying about the perception of gamers, then acceptance may as well get chucked out the window at that point and we can find ourselves filed alongside creationist crazies.

I don't want that. I wasn't slighted by the gaming press (who have always qualified their attacks at a toxic minority) but I damn well am going to become tarnished by this. Literally is a burning # in the ground that shouts "look at us! We are regressionist, unreasonable and totally hysterical!".

Again, I reject the idea that a fringe group of a couple hundred thousand people represents you and I and all other gamers. That's the very misconception that brought me into this thing in the first place.

that said, you are probably right. I don't think anything will happen from all of this. I expect this to remain a gaping wound in the industry for quite some time; perhaps years. that thought make sme cry.