boogie2988
Banned
thank you, Murdoch. that help put my mind at ease.
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#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014
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thank you, Murdoch. that help put my mind at ease.
Women were and still are, heavily abused under the #Gamergate hashtag. It started as abuse. If you tell them "be kind", "be nice" you are not helpful. You are not helpful for a change for the better. Acknowledge the ongoing abuse. Fight it. That would help more than just a nebelous better. That has so far only resulted in women leaving the industry and being silenced, for doing nothing wrong.
boogie2988
Banned
I actually took lime's advice and acknowledged the abuse in a tumblr post last night, actually. I think you might find it an interesting read as well.
http://boogie2988.tumblr.com/post/96871675573/on-gamergate-and-my-role-in-it
To repeat: Gamergate started as abuse of Zoe Quinn, is still used as abuse of Zoe Quinn. Not much else was achieved.
Me too buddy, me too. You're a very compassionate and emotional person Boogie, and that's a good thing, but you need to remember we know you're only human; even those that are critical of your comments have to realize you're trying your best and genuinely come at this with a good heart. For your health's sake, you've got to remember that.
This isn't going to happen. There is an environment of "either you are unequivocally for us, or you are against us". No grey area. I saw the snarky remarks you got for daring to link to that Gamesutra piece. Enough of that sort of talk and you'd find yourself removed from the "good media" jpeg.
What is happening is a lot of scrabbling to find scandal to keep the fire burning. Considering that the main perpetrators are effectively acting as media channels, they are not under the same scrutiny that they demand the deemed "bad guys" are. Unnamed sources, logic leaps, "insiders", anonymous developer and oppressed but scared to speak out journalist. Doesn't matter about the actual detail, as long as it has support, make a youtube about it and spread it as fact.
Dismiss any sort of opposition, shout down any sort of counter argument with "WHERE ARE YOUR FACTS", reply with ad hominum and strawman fallacy as a winning trump card. By the time any sort of official light is shed (and there is no such obligation to do so as it is jumping to the demands of an unruly mob), the next scandal is out, the next superstition as fact is the cause.
Sadly, with your position, people are only going to want to hear your support. So you can be tweeted around in a "popular youtuber of the people Francis is on our side!!".
Candescence
Member
So, I've noticed that TotalBiscut has been mocking this whole thing by using #PidgeonGate on twitter (in reference to Hatoful Boyfriend). Hilarious.
And the #GamerGate hashtag is practically poison at this point. Trying to discredit it entirely and focus on a more positive label has certainly crossed my mind.
And the #GamerGate hashtag is practically poison at this point. Trying to discredit it entirely and focus on a more positive label has certainly crossed my mind.
You still associate with a movement that was originated in a focused attack on Zoe Quinn with the veil of "games journalism transparency" as a smoke screen. Trying to redirect the earnest people that rallied around that movement unknowingly of its origins is commendable but people that know where it started, people that know the damage it made, and people that know the hate and maleficence behind it won't ever take this serious. I won't. And I'm a gamer too.
http://kotaku.com/a-brief-note-about-the-continued-discussion-about-kotak-1627041269
It has opened a much needed door on transparency among journalist. If you choose to only look at Zoe's "abuse", then that's all you see.
On the "remove politics from our vidya gamez" whining:
One of the popular memes causing certain members of the gaming community to shit the bed right now is the idea that politics are being inserted into games by critics and journalists who are looking to push an agenda. It's a naive point of view, but I've found that just saying that to people doesn't make for a convincing argument. As an experiment, I'm going to try and explain how I reach that conclusion.
On being, well, female and angry:
Gender isnt a game you can play and win by brutalising and harassing and shaming and hurting the other side. Ultimately, there is no other side. Gender oppression is structural. Everybody loses, in the long term, because everybody has to live in a culture where its normal to hound women out of their homes for daring to demand fairer treatment, normal to shame girls and queer people into silence for suggesting that there might be other interesting stories to tell. There is no way to win this game, except by not playing at all.
So they cant understand why theyre losing.
On #gamergate's ball of shepherdless cats:
Its telling that in the context of the conversation with Kunzelman, Haux expresses opinions on the spectrum from I am upset about the high numbers Call of Duty and Gone Home got in their reviews to Deus Ex: Human Revolution is a 7/10′ to you cant score a game any more than you can score a book. I see similar confusion infecting claims made by other #GamerGate participants. Compare, for instance, points #2 and #4 about games journalism in this manifesto, which is edited by Gamers, and try to tell me that the #GamerGate people know what they want in any detail more specific than fewer women writing about games and a lower Metacritic score for Gone Home. As Matt Lees points out, many of the specific demands are based around misconceptions in the first place. I imagine many of them are unclear not just about what they want but why they want it.
One of the popular memes causing certain members of the gaming community to shit the bed right now is the idea that politics are being inserted into games by critics and journalists who are looking to push an agenda. It's a naive point of view, but I've found that just saying that to people doesn't make for a convincing argument. As an experiment, I'm going to try and explain how I reach that conclusion.
On being, well, female and angry:
Gender isnt a game you can play and win by brutalising and harassing and shaming and hurting the other side. Ultimately, there is no other side. Gender oppression is structural. Everybody loses, in the long term, because everybody has to live in a culture where its normal to hound women out of their homes for daring to demand fairer treatment, normal to shame girls and queer people into silence for suggesting that there might be other interesting stories to tell. There is no way to win this game, except by not playing at all.
So they cant understand why theyre losing.
On #gamergate's ball of shepherdless cats:
Its telling that in the context of the conversation with Kunzelman, Haux expresses opinions on the spectrum from I am upset about the high numbers Call of Duty and Gone Home got in their reviews to Deus Ex: Human Revolution is a 7/10′ to you cant score a game any more than you can score a book. I see similar confusion infecting claims made by other #GamerGate participants. Compare, for instance, points #2 and #4 about games journalism in this manifesto, which is edited by Gamers, and try to tell me that the #GamerGate people know what they want in any detail more specific than fewer women writing about games and a lower Metacritic score for Gone Home. As Matt Lees points out, many of the specific demands are based around misconceptions in the first place. I imagine many of them are unclear not just about what they want but why they want it.
and Jenn Frank too.
Zoe came under consistent flak based on gossip. Media, after much pressing of "why are you not reporting this", stepped in to denounce the harassing and negative element of "gamers" (under the pretense that a majority of us had moved on from such a terrible mindset and were actually forward thinking lovers of games), on doing so, a massive witch hunt began. People treated headlines and articles as "ALL GAMERS ARE SIN". A massive push began to find "corruption" which was little more than leaps of logic and hearsay. Jenn Frank was one said source of non-transparency. Except it turned out that a 200 year old institution and no doubt specialist in journalist ethics decided that the COI that she expressed was not a big deal.
Didn't help. #gamergate ethics was the weapon to beat her down. Except by this point it was deemed that it had "evolved" beyond those roots into a higher purpose. It hasn't. It is the exact same thing that it is now. The firestarters have their targets, the light the touchpapers under them and wait to see what happens. Any sort of media/social media/forum that might discredit them is quickly put onto a debunk list so they can be dismissed out of hand.
lorebringer
Member
Well the groundwork has been laid to force more women out down the road and now more of them will be worried about stepping out of line by actually being women and having a public presence so as far as I can tell its a win for gamersgate. Go team!
be that as it may I hope you realize that you don't have to come here and justify the key stroke of every tweet, NeoGaf is not the internet's bastion of decency, you don't owe anyone here anything.
on balance you have probably done more good for the industry as a whole than the majority of the righteous indignation crowd on both sides of the argument.
that being said, well done for taking the time to comment regardless
Happy-Bunny
Banned
Did it? I had no clue. What was the first post that used it?
PS: Sorry I'm late to this topic although I have read Leigh Alexander's Gamasutra article.
That transparency on the independent space is welcomed and applauded. Move your aim now to bigger, more important targets. It's strange that a games journalism transparency movement focused almost entirely on independent developers/journalists relationships and the bigger players, the publisher relationship with journalists, youtubers and streamers is marginally mentioned if at all. #followthemoney
boogie2988
Banned
I absolutely know that my efforts will be largely fruitless, just the same way I know my efforts to diet, or my efforts to create videos that keep people from offing themselves, or my efforts to encourage gamers to treat others gamers kindly...
I know I cannot change the entire movement and I won't dare to try. But if I can change one or two people's hearts or minds and this extends past this debacle that would be grand.
Besides, I am on a side. I'm on two sides, to be honest. On one hand I favor gamergate for the ideals expressed in helping the industry evolve into a better thing.
On the other hand I am on the side of all of the diverse gamers who want to help the gaming industry evolve into a better place.
I think everyone knows this and understands this about me. I just want to see the industry and gaming as a whole become better. I still believe this is a possible outcome of this whole mess.
Anyone who sides with #gamergate should and will know that I agree the role of diverse gamers is very important and a discussion we must have on their terms.
Anyone who sides with diversity in gaming should know that I agree with the folks at gamergate who are calling for reform.
I'll make sure of it
We had this discussion since Doritos Gate. Nothing really new. Btw, nice quotation marks.
That is a really weird line to draw.
I absolutely know that my efforts will be largely fruitless, just the same way I know my efforts to diet, or my efforts to create videos that keep people from offing themselves, or my efforts to encourage gamers to treat others gamers kindly...
I know I cannot change the entire movement and I won't dare to try. But if I can change one or two people's hearts or minds and this extends past this debacle that would be grand.
Besides, I am on a side. I'm on two sides, to be honest. On one hand I favor gamergate for the ideals expressed in helping the industry evolve into a better thing.
On the other hand I am on the side of all of the diverse gamers who want to help the gaming industry evolve into a better place.
I think everyone knows this and understands this about me. I just want to see the industry and gaming as a whole become better. I still believe this is a possible outcome of this whole mess.
Anyone who sides with #gamergate should and will know that I agree the role of diverse gamers is very important and a discussion we must have on their terms.
Anyone who sides with diversity in gaming should know that I agree with the folks at gamergate who are calling for reform.
I'll make sure of it
FYI - I don't meant to come across shouty (text based conversation yadda yadda) and I know you are doing your best to be as level as possible.
I've noticed you looking fatigued by the entire thing on here and I really hope everything turns out ok!
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=753566
Because normally, Neogaf tends to look down at bad behavior like that. Except this time, the veil of misogyny covered any actual argument.
Gamergate was pinpointed at one particular aspect of the industry which is dev and indies. The #XB1M13 and the similar one for EA received tons of flak.
KarneeKarnay
Member
The only thing that really bothered me about this whole scandal, wasn't really what Zoey Quinn did, but how the rest of the industry has responded. I can put to over a dozen articles written by "Games Journalists" who spend over 3000+ words, talking about how vile the denizens of the internet are, but spend less than a 100 talking about what caused it.
The vast majority of articles about this just do not address what happened. It is implied that Zoey Quinn slept with a games journalist to get a positive review for her game. A game that was almost universally panned by the Steam Green Light system, but still got onto Steam. Since then we have had a whole dirty closet aired about practices and ethics in the industry.
I don't think anything will really change though. The industry is almost impossible to police at this point and unethical practices are almost common place. All that we can really hope for is that journalists turn to the more morally sound voices. TB for example. You can disagree with him, but at least he is open and transparent.
The vast majority of articles about this just do not address what happened. It is implied that Zoey Quinn slept with a games journalist to get a positive review for her game. A game that was almost universally panned by the Steam Green Light system, but still got onto Steam. Since then we have had a whole dirty closet aired about practices and ethics in the industry.
I don't think anything will really change though. The industry is almost impossible to police at this point and unethical practices are almost common place. All that we can really hope for is that journalists turn to the more morally sound voices. TB for example. You can disagree with him, but at least he is open and transparent.
Señor Coyote
Banned
I absolutely know that my efforts will be largely fruitless, just the same way I know my efforts to diet, or my efforts to create videos that keep people from offing themselves, or my efforts to encourage gamers to treat others gamers kindly...
I know I cannot change the entire movement and I won't dare to try. But if I can change one or two people's hearts or minds and this extends past this debacle that would be grand.
Besides, I am on a side. I'm on two sides, to be honest. On one hand I favor gamergate for the ideals expressed in helping the industry evolve into a better thing.
On the other hand I am on the side of all of the diverse gamers who want to help the gaming industry evolve into a better place.
I think everyone knows this and understands this about me. I just want to see the industry and gaming as a whole become better. I still believe this is a possible outcome of this whole mess.
Anyone who sides with #gamergate should and will know that I agree the role of diverse gamers is very important and a discussion we must have on their terms.
Anyone who sides with diversity in gaming should know that I agree with the folks at gamergate who are calling for reform.
I'll make sure of it
Stay strong boogie, don't let people bully you into submission. If you type #GamerGate or #NotYourShield into twitter you will see thousands of men and women that share your thoughts and feelings. The vast majority of them are not bigots and neither are you. Take care.
Zoe Quinn did nothing wrong. She slept with one guy who didn't review her game. Just full stop.
Well, if he didn't review the game, in your words, what DID Nathan Grayson do?
A vast array of tosh gets greenlit to be fair. That isn't an industry problem but a Valve curation one.
The articles didn't address what happened specifically because the entire ZQ saga was spun from some he said she said gossip from the ex and some huge leaps of logic to tie it into a more angled attack. I don't want my gaming outlets speculating on hearsay! So they reported on what they could, "those" gamers who like to latch onto anything like this to harass and attack. To highlight the sort of gossip based nastiness that seems to burrow away unchecked, given a social media platform to flourish and pose as truth and righteous.
lorebringer
Member
You mean the positive review that doesn't exist? Good point this needs more discussion. I think we should all just stop this gamergate thing and start a new tag, maybe we can call it #zoesvagina? Well at least that was the only crappy game that got on steam amirite.
It would be great if a mod could gather up the surfaced facts surrounding the Quinn thing - the hashtag campaign's origin in those IRC logs, the stated purpose of that campaign, the official statement from Totilo highlighting the baseless fabricated horseshit nature of the accusations etc. - and place it in the OP.
There's still a bunch of people on GAF who are not in this thread but see it on the front page and are thinking "that's the thing which started because a chick fucked a journalist i think?" The accusations stuck; the refutements (is that a word?) have passed largely unnoticed. As a targeted character assassination, #gamergate is a net win for the perpetrators, since they evidently never gave much of a shit about editorial disclosure and the like. Success for their cause, as now whole arrays of the community have cause to doubt the integrity of a vagina-owner. A way to dilute that success is to gently point out to fellow GAFfers that, hey, by the way, all that Quinn stuff was made-up bullshit stemming from a spiteful ex-boyfriend and then co-opted by a gathering of misogynistic turdcurdles.
There's still a bunch of people on GAF who are not in this thread but see it on the front page and are thinking "that's the thing which started because a chick fucked a journalist i think?" The accusations stuck; the refutements (is that a word?) have passed largely unnoticed. As a targeted character assassination, #gamergate is a net win for the perpetrators, since they evidently never gave much of a shit about editorial disclosure and the like. Success for their cause, as now whole arrays of the community have cause to doubt the integrity of a vagina-owner. A way to dilute that success is to gently point out to fellow GAFfers that, hey, by the way, all that Quinn stuff was made-up bullshit stemming from a spiteful ex-boyfriend and then co-opted by a gathering of misogynistic turdcurdles.
Happy-Bunny
Banned
lorebringer
Member
I'll bet you a lifetime ban he didn't review the game. Fair?
literally 2 seconds on google can give you your answer, maybe you should read some of the thread next time
To so much fanfare by the press members she's connected to, yes. That makes it an anomaly among bad games that make it on Steam.
Doesn't really answer the question, what did he do?
Intheflorsh
Banned
Why are you assuming he had to do something?
lorebringer
Member
Maybe some people actually liked it for being a game about something that people don't typically make games about? Maybe it was well done, I don't know I haven't played it, have you? Are you alleging that games media figures intentionally gave depression quest better coverage than other games explicitly as a favour to a friend?
I'm not assuming, but the previous poster is being coy an avoiding the question.
Quantify "fanfare".
lorebringer
Member
I didn't answer your question because like I said it takes 2 seconds of googling to answer. He didn't do anything.
Media attention that most of the games on Steam don't necessarily get.
Such as? be specific
Which side would you want? Multiple media outlets giving her positive press and shout outs? Or, an entire internet defense force, that as Greg Tito of Escapist said was based on "little evidence other than her word".
You can downplay evidence to the contrary, or frame everything as abuse, but in the end, similar things have occurred in the game industry been met with pure condemnation on this site.
If you want to play favorites, fine.
I'm going to work.
I see loads of articles about greenlit games. Depression Quest got notoriety thanks to the flak it received. If it hadn't been a targeted game/developer, I highly suspect it would not have received anywhere near the notoriety. It was already in the spotlight. So when said notorious game comes to fruition, it no doubt gets a mention.
You could stay polite.
I'm asking you where is all the media attention prior to this whole thing blowing out.
I mean if we are to indict the press in illegitimately giving attention to this game, surely there is a mountain of links you could give.
There were talks (here and there) about the suspiciously big media coverage of TitanFall, yet no one harassed anyone in that case.
What's the difference here to warrant such vitriol (if this is about ZQ's game having special media attention)?
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
Oh come on Kotaku. Not sure if this fits here cause I have no idea what "Gamergate" now stands for I guess, but really?
Asking readers to design an ad for Destiny? Come on. Not right now. Not the best time.
Asking readers to design an ad for Destiny? Come on. Not right now. Not the best time.
Oh come on Kotaku. Not sure if this fits here cause I have no idea what "Gamergate" now stands for I guess, but really?
Asking readers to design an ad for Destiny? Come on. Not right now. Not the best time.
Do not worry, it is all perfectly fine. You see, the people behind this are not females sleeping with journalists. No. So it is morally white, you see?
neurosisxeno
Member
...Kotaku has been doing their Shop Contests in a similar fashion for years. Usually they are about hyped games on the horizon (such as this) or goofy events that happened in the Anime or Gaming community. It actually works rather well for the format considering how Microsoft handled not advertising Destiny--one of the most hyped games of the year.
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
I don't really see how "They've been doing this for a long time" makes it better in any way, to be honest.
neurosisxeno
Member
You've yet to make a compelling argument as to why it's in poor taste. They are continuing a harmless tradition while simultaneously poking fun at Microsoft's somewhat ridiculous round-a-bout way of advertising. Should the entirety of Game Journalism enter a moratorium or something?
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
I didn't think it was necessary, since I thought the image spoke for itself. No, Game Journalists shouldn't say "Hey readers, let's make more ads for one of the most hyped games this year".
This isn't "poking fun", this is playing right into the marketing machine. If you want your silly photoshop contests, do something like "Make a Destiny-style non-ad for a game that's already out"
But I can already tell by the wording of your post that this conversation probably won't lead anywhere. I honestly don't understand how one could see a major site asking it's readers to design ads for an upcoming game as "harmless" but to each his own I guess.
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