• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014

Status
Not open for further replies.

Ayt

Banned
Concerning the rise of "Social Justice Warrior" as a concept: I've always thought it had to do with the idea of "white knights" that was prevalent for a while in certain circles, though you don't see it used as often anymore.

The sort of people who would use a term like white knight generally seemed to think that anyone they were engaging with online was also a man -- male being the default, apparently -- and that any man who would be concerned with women's issues must be doing it in the hopes of getting laid. (This is just more of that general idea that men and women can never be friends because women are only objects of desire, who either acquiesce or "friend zone" the men who are the ones with agency.) A woman couldn't possibly be arguing on behalf of herself, it must be a goody two-shoes white knight whose only goal is to obtain her.

Once they began to realize that some of the people who disagreed with them were women themselves, they obviously couldn't be called white knights who want to obtain other women as a prize -- lesbians after all only exist for the male gaze -- but the idea of sneering at a warrior who makes their career out of a naive pursuit of some childish idea of justice (mixed with a suggestion of self-righteousness) still appealed to them, and so the idea of women as Social Justice Warriors took hold as a particularly snide way of harking back to the old "professional victims" refrain. The term has since grown to encompass men as well, and basically anyone who disagrees with you on issues you deem to be "politicized."

Just a theory, though.

People who use the term are terrible people who can't fathom that others are not as terrible as they are. Everyone else must also have a secret, narcissistic motive in basically everything they do because that is how they operate and it is how they perceive the world.

It is sociopaths projecting their sociopathy onto others.
 
Every book by Gibson that I read bored me to tears. I'm not very fond of him as an author.

But damn, now I really like him as a person. :D

Seriously, I had the same feeling. "I am now going to try to read that shitfest of a book I got once because I was told he was amazing".

EDIT: PUA = Pick Up Artist.
 

Kinyou

Member
Should we never advise people against certain choices that we disagree with? GG advocates tweet things like 'Gamers are tired of being lectured to by politically correct SJWs'. Okay. You're tired of hearing people talk about something.

People know that you have no rights protecting them from boredom yes? And I don't see any way of protecting people from being lectured to that doesn't clearly infringe on free speech.
The point is more that too much negative criticism will often be met with negative reactions
People might react more positive to her series if it included more solutions to the problems.

Does that mean games journalists shouldn't tell devs to stop including qtes, unskippable cutscenes, escort missions or other crappy things games have done over the years because its negative criticism. Part of their their jobs is to say this sucks stop doing it..
Negative criticism isn't inherently bad. Just that when you focus too much on it, it wont be a good critique.
 
Does that mean games journalists shouldn't tell devs to stop including qtes, unskippable cutscenes, escort missions or other crappy things games have done over the years because its negative criticism. Part of their their jobs is to say this sucks stop doing it..

Well they also have to give a decent reasoning why such things need to be taken out of the game they are talking about. Some games have unskippable cutscenes on the first play through due to loading in the background, QTEs can be fun. Again its really a game by game basis.
Same thing should be applied on it comes ethically handling in games.
 

Fantastapotamus

Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
GiantBomb: Letter From the Editor

Despite my name often being attached to the conspiratorial "gate" suffix, I've never been a big fan of the term. So when "GamerGate" rose up to cover over a campaign of harassment with a veneer of concern for the ethics of games journalism, it more or less set off every single disgust alarm I have. Though I'm sure some good people have been roped into this mess under this guise, the ethical concern portion of all this is largely a farce, a fallacy.
 

Ri'Orius

Member
I don't get it, is that supposed to be a bad thing?

I think so. I think Watch Dogs would have been a worse game if it hadn't had the sex slavery subplot. I think Red Dead Redemption would have been a worse game if you weren't able to tie women to the railroad tracks. I think Deus Ex HR would've been a worse game if it hadn't had the brothel level (I'll elaborate on this a bit: throughout the game we've got this idea that augments are somehow bad or creepy. Jensen's all "I didn't ask to be made into a badass!," protesters are saying "Is it really okay to give paraplegic people fully functioning robotic limbs?" And I totally didn't see what they were complaining about (hence my biased paraphrasing). But when you get to the brothel, and the hookers (vaguely) reference their augments? That's the first time I thought "okay, maybe science has gone too far in this world." That's when augments crossed the line from "cool" to "creepy.")

I'm not sure how you're getting all that out of saying it's okay to enjoy a product and remain critical of it at the same time. Is there a specific reference or tone that's adding an additional context I'm not seeing?

In my mind, when you criticize an aspect of something, you're saying "this work would be better if X were changed." "Halo would be better if it didn't have regenerating health." "Skyward Sword would be better if Fi would shut up every once in a while."

So if Sarkeesian is saying "Deus Ex HR would be better if it didn't have a brothel," then I strongly disagree.

You're still confusing a criticism of the game ("its problematic aspects") with a criticism of the player ("ok/not ok to enjoy")

Perhaps. But when aspects I like are called "pernicious," and equated to sexual objectification and violence against women, then yeah, that sounds to me like criticism that reaches beyond whether the game is fun. That sounds to me like it's saying "these aspects are morally wrong," with the implication being those who enjoy them are morally wrong.
 

willooi

Member
Growth could be a bad thing if it involves appealing to a wider or different audience. Just like old-school FPS fans object to regenerating health, old-school Zelda fans object to Skyward Sword's ridiculous level of handholding, or practically everyone objects to Farmville-style F2P business models. If the industry tries to appeal to other people, then it's not trying as hard to appeal to the core audience.

I don't like any of the above things either, was more talking about the characterisation in games. And because that core audience is evolving as games become more popular, if they're set in the modern day then it shouldn't be too extreme to argue that characters perhaps ought to - within reason and context - come to represent modern day society. That is a good point about gameplay though, and the whole thing about 'dumbing down' for a wider audience. Whether something like Dragon Age 2's 'awesome button' happened because of more non-core players in the fanbase...who knows. Maybe it was to address younger fans who wanted easier action, or to do with the greater trend of games in general where hand-holding and easy gratification sells. It's the whole 'console player' argument again, and I wouldn't think that more, say, girl fans or whoever would necessarily be happy about it either.

I'm also not sure where you're getting that impression of Sarkeesian's work. I've only watched the Tropes videos, but they haven't struck me as coming "from a basis of respect." To me they've just seemed like a list of "In Mario you rescue a princess. In Zelda you rescue a princess. Deus Ex HR has prostitutes, and you can kill them. Red Dead Redemption has prostitutes, and you can kill them. Grand Theft Auto has prostitutes, and you can kill them."

Maybe I'm projecting or being overly sensitive, but when I see that I think that her goal is to change games I like to appeal more to other people. But... I like rescuing princesses. It's simple and easy, plus the structure of Mario and Zelda games has some far-reaching nostalgia. I like seeing gritty slums populated with thugs, hobos and hookers. I like knowing that, if I choose, I can push the button to kill NPCs. And while I didn't play the game, I thought it was hilarious that RDR had a trophy for tying a woman to the railroad tracks, something Sarkeesian specifically pointed out as troubling

The videos highlight how they rely on a certain pattern of portrayals that pop up regularly to the point of cliche, with the intention of, you know what, let's think of some new ideas apart from 'women need rescuing'. They're just showing us what we've become so used to to the point where we don't question things. Yeah, this brings up the issue of whether we even want to question things in a game at all - many don't obviously - but ultimately I believe she wants games to be innovative and still appeal to core players and a growing, maturing, audience. Basically, it's "video games, you can do better than age old fairytales", and we can have reversals of what we see now, like in The Last Of Us where the characters, from male and female perspectives, can save each other and show strength and character and don't need to be revealing cleavage while they do it.

Sarkeesian's videos are inherently destructive criticism. She puts together a collage of things she views as problems. Which can put people who don't view them as problems on the defensive.

That's where I'm coming from, at least. The Jack Thompson comparison is apt in my view: how is it wrong in yours? (aside from the fact that JT tried to enforce his views legally, as has already been pointed out)

Re destructive criticism, sure, I see where you're coming from. They've got plans for a positive female characters video and one wonders whether things would be any different had that come out earlier... hmm. But again, as above, an alternative voice can be a good thing. That Gaider talk I mentioned before (linking again - it really is eye-opening) gave a specific example of someone from a different background being able to aid in improving a particular segment, and were it not for that input, the idea could have overshot the mark. Nothing's being censored ... they're being improved.

As for JT, the difference is that he wanted to discredit and destroy games entirely, whereas with Sarkeesian the mistake is to interpret criticism with condemnation. Right from the Kickstarter phase she's framed games as being capable of creative thought, teamwork, problem solving, etc., BUT with these certain issues which, frankly, gamers have known about for ages. She does point out positive examples in her videos, but maybe not enough of them and so people get riled. It's only natural for to become defensive, but you wonder if that reaction is because something she said has hit a bit too close to home? And now that gaming is massive it's to be expected that outside observers wonder what all the fuss is about - but if all they see are certain portrayals of women, it's going to affect the stigma of games and its consumers, and has a subsequent effect on how attractive the industry is for a wealth of talent out there if it appears to be an all-boys' club where it's "fit in or get out".
 

besada

Banned
William Gibson joins the "fallen heroes".

B0LMCx5IYAAbHtq.png

One would have to know literally nothing about Gibson to be shocked about this.
 
Perhaps. But when aspects I like are called "pernicious," and equated to sexual objectification and violence against women, then yeah, that sounds to me like criticism that reaches beyond whether the game is fun. That sounds to me like it's saying "these aspects are morally wrong," with the implication being those who enjoy them are morally wrong.

Do you think it's right for people to point out that Bella and Edward's relationship in Twilight has abusive and unhealthy elements?
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
I think Red Dead Redemption would have been a worse game if you weren't able to tie women to the railroad tracks.
I'm assuming you can tie any NPC to the railroad tracks, but it's only when you tie a woman that you get the trophy. Are you seriously arguing that the game would have been worse if you didn't get a trophy for that?
 

zeldablue

Member
So if Sarkeesian is saying "Deus Ex HR would be better if it didn't have a brothel," then I strongly disagree.
I don't think she's saying to take it out. It's more like a call to be mindful and innovate with how you show women. :\

Also, just because you like something doesn't mean it's moral/immoral. However, there's a chance that a woman playing the game will feel uneasy in places you don't feel uneasy.

Like, what if every game had a mandatory section where women talked uncomfortably about their periods? You would feel uneasy and maybe ask them to stop talking about something that is isolating and hurtful to you.
 

Fantastapotamus

Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
Since it got lost on the last page, I'll repost it here:

GiantBomb: Letter From the Editor

Despite my name often being attached to the conspiratorial "gate" suffix, I've never been a big fan of the term. So when "GamerGate" rose up to cover over a campaign of harassment with a veneer of concern for the ethics of games journalism, it more or less set off every single disgust alarm I have. Though I'm sure some good people have been roped into this mess under this guise, the ethical concern portion of all this is largely a farce, a fallacy.
It's a good read I think
 

JackDT

Member
Giant Bomb Staff:

https://twitter.com/jeffgerstmann/status/523217453535342592

http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/letter-from-the-editor-10-17-2014/1100-5049/

Despite my name often being attached to the conspiratorial "gate" suffix, I've never been a big fan of the term. So when "GamerGate" rose up to cover over a campaign of harassment with a veneer of concern for the ethics of games journalism, it more or less set off every single disgust alarm I have. Though I'm sure some good people have been roped into this mess under this guise, the ethical concern portion of all this is largely a farce, a fallacy. But the string-pullers at the core of this mess have managed to rope in some number of unsuspecting players who do, in fact, think that this thing starts and stops with outrage over perceived ethical violations in the game journalism industry. To those of you who have been led to believe that this is all about ethics in games journalism and not about the harassment of game developers, I'll say this up front.

I'm saddened to see the topic that has driven much of my career become so wholly co-opted for hate. Ultimately, that's a side note to the main event, of course. Having people toss all discussion about ethics in games journalism under a bus to hide politicized harassment campaigns is sad for me, but I'll be fine. Games? Game developers? That's what's actually at stake. I'm not sure what the actual end goal of GamerGate seems to be, but it seems to be somewhere between "destroy the careers of anyone who would make a game that falls outside of a certain-yet-unspecified scope and/or topic" and "let's burn it all down because it's fun to see how much trouble we can stir up."

If you genuinely care about ethics in games journalism, GamerGate is not the spot for you. To some of them, "unethical" is being used as a synonym for "a viewpoint I don't agree with." That's not an ethics discussion. That's an attempt to silence criticism. Again, if you do care about ethics in games journalism, GamerGate is destroying your message.

In many ways, that's been the most frustrating part. To watch talented folks like Jenn Frank get pushed right up to a breaking point and for the rest of us to have nothing better to combat this with than "hey, I know you think you're waging some kind of holy war and solving some kind of real-world issue but stop this" feels like the most empty and toothless statement around. It's easy to feel helpless and I don't have a real solution to this. I'm not sure that there is one, honestly. GamerGate has created a group of people who speak in political terms and attack the people they disagree with in the same way a political action group would target someone speaking out against that group's specified cause. They talk in circles that feel like they're designed to waste as much time as possible, exhausting their target in the process.

Continued success in the face of adversity is the best defense against those that would seek to derail you and mire you in endless arguments that they control, that they frame, and that they aren't actually trying to win. Regardless of your own personal politics, stop letting GamerGate be in your way. For some of you, obviously, that will be an incredible challenge. Some people are getting a lot of hateful garbage hurled their way. But to give in would be to further enable a collection of people who don't even know what they actually want other than to simply disrupt you as much as they possibly can. We can't let that happen. We have faith that video games and the people who make them will persevere.
 

jbug617

Banned
Gamespot's letter up about harassment
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/an-important-message-to-our-users-regarding-online/1100-6423008/

We believe that gaming has a bright, inclusive future ahead of it, and the industry is strong and diverse enough to accommodate games and gamers of all types. However, the medium that all of us care for so much will only grow as long as we continue to treat people who make, play, and talk about video games with respect. Our own belief is that actions speak louder than words. We choose to lead by example — through the content we create, the staff we hire and the way we conduct ourselves — and to not feed the grotesque and appalling behaviour of some individuals. We are not planning further comment on this, but note that we will continue to reinforce our site’s zero tolerance policy for anything constituting harassment of our users, our staff, or indeed, anyone else, for doing nothing more than sharing an opinion or being different.
 
Operation confront them on what they'll actually stand behind is going rather well. There's certainly enough stuff they won't deny that you can take them to task for.

ethics15eid5.png

ethics2ysihk.png
 

tchocky

Member
Would it not be a good idea to add some these articles from prominent game and non game sites to the OP to make them easier to find for newcomers to the thread.
 
I don't think she's saying to take it out. It's more like a call to be mindful and innovate with how you show women. :\

Also, just because you like something doesn't mean it's moral/immoral. However, there's a chance that a woman playing the game will feel uneasy in places you don't feel uneasy.

Like, what if every game had a mandatory section where women talked uncomfortably about their periods? You would feel uneasy and maybe ask them to stop talking about something that is isolating and hurtful to you.

My wife watched me play a bit of Max Payne 3. We got to the brothel scene and while the first little snippet of a John and trick got her attention, the gangbang snippet made her uneasy and she didn't watch any more after that.
 

Fantastapotamus

Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
@jeffgerstmann Here we go again with this misogynati tinfoil hat crap. I hope this was worth the parties you won't be disinvited from now.

Is "disinvite" an actual word? Cause I kinda want it to be.
 

Etnos

Banned
"To some of them, "unethical" is being used as a synonym for "a viewpoint I don't agree with." That's not an ethics discussion. That's an attempt to silence criticism."

That Giantbomb letter, nice writing.
 

Myggen

Member
"To some of them, "unethical" is being used as a synonym for "a viewpoint I don't agree with." That's not an ethics discussion. That's an attempt to silence criticism."

That Giantbomb letter, nice writing.

Jeff is a great writer when he wants to be. Good response.
 
Perhaps. But when aspects I like are called "pernicious," and equated to sexual objectification and violence against women, then yeah, that sounds to me like criticism that reaches beyond whether the game is fun. That sounds to me like it's saying "these aspects are morally wrong," with the implication being those who enjoy them are morally wrong.

Yes, "pernicious" is quite the $5 word. But the disclaimer also makes it clear that not everything is that bad in her opinion, it may just be"problematic" i.e. something to discuss, debate, and find out what the possible consequences are. That's certainly not attacking the player for their opinion or what they enjoy.
 

zeldablue

Member
My wife watched me play a bit of Max Payne 3. We got to the brothel scene and while the first little snippet of a John and trick got her attention, the gangbang snippet made her uneasy and she didn't watch any more after that.

Yeah stuff like that. :\

One of my favorite games ever is Catherine. (Game of the Year for me in 2011!)

I was well aware that it had some strange things to say about the other sex, and I was often times uncomfortable. But I love that game to death. Bayonetta was similar as well. I like the game, but I'm just squirming in my chair half the time. I don't know what I expect going into these titles, but I believe that content should be open to critique since it is a big part of the design and theming of the game. And quite honestly...I LOVE the theming and charm of these games. But there are things that make me weary and sometimes insulted.
 

GolazoDan

Member
I don't think those Sam Biddle tweets are entirely serious. Dude's being a wiseass. Wouldn't fancy checking his mentions with all of the trolling he's been doing of Gamergate sorts, though. Probably not so smart in that regard.
 
Just noticed, lol. It's getting late

I do think a big issue with her series when it comes to this is that it's generally based around pointing out negative/stereotypical tropes.

"positive examples" of how to use a "negative" trope often mean the trope's not actually used.

I can think of plenty of ways to have interesting or worthwhile representation of a prostitute, but literally any idea I come up with would fall far outside of the realm of "women as background decoration".

There's plenty of tropes that are inherently "lazy" or questionable, like the entire category of "war on straw" tropes.

"positive ways" to use these tropes are literally ... don't use them. Nobody's gonna stop you if you really really want to include a straw vulcan to show how awful logic is. But the only thing a person can do with these tropes is point out why they usually don't work. Positive examples are almost guaranteed to fall outside of the spectrum the trope finds itself in.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom