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#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014
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EmCeeGramr
Member
It's a little boy playing ding dong ditch, and what are probably a pair of neighbors or Jehovah's Witnesses or something.
tonysidaway
Member
Collusion! Unethical! /gamergate
I'm really sorry to be coming to this late, but would somebody please be able to explain to me whether Gamergate applies if you don't identify as a 'gamer'?
It's probably a stupid question that's been answered before, so I do apologise! I guess I'm just confused - and this is probably a ridiculous thing to ask on GAF - but are there people who identify as a "gamer" and with "game culture"?
Edit: I didn't explain myself very well. What I mean is that "game culture" becomes the defining part of a person's identity, so the reaction to this "scandal" (or whatever you want to call it) is just so visceral.
(I've only just caught up on Gamergate and my overwhelming feeling is just that it's all very depressing. Really, really depressing.)
It's probably a stupid question that's been answered before, so I do apologise! I guess I'm just confused - and this is probably a ridiculous thing to ask on GAF - but are there people who identify as a "gamer" and with "game culture"?
Edit: I didn't explain myself very well. What I mean is that "game culture" becomes the defining part of a person's identity, so the reaction to this "scandal" (or whatever you want to call it) is just so visceral.
(I've only just caught up on Gamergate and my overwhelming feeling is just that it's all very depressing. Really, really depressing.)
BlastProcessing
Member
I obviously can't speak for Anita, but I think what she wants is for people to simply notice it. Tropes are like the arrow on the Fedex logo. Once they are pointed out it's hard not to see them. I don't think Anita has good solutions and I don't think it is her responsibility to come up with them. She is just pointing out that things exist.
I will say that when Jeff says "Silence isn't complicity" it bothered me also. I really appreciate the fact that he sat down and wrote about this in a thoughtful and reasoned way. I think that one of the reasons that the rhetoric got so crazy so quickly is that there wasn't enough thoughtful things written like this from Jump Street.
When he talks about silence I think of this quote From Inga Muscio
Inga Muscio said:
I am boycotting neogaf because they did not disclose the relationship between HP_Wuvcraft & Plagarize. #GafGate
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
I think it comes down to how strongly you feel about being a gamer as your identity. I've been playing games for 25 years, but I also do a lot of other things. When people say things about "gamers" I'm listening, but I'm also an individual who can realize when something does or does not apply to me personally.
Honestly, I was never a fan of him... tried to watch a couple of videos: An adult grown man complaining for 40 minutes about the lack of options in a PC port because it is anti consumer or whatever... just bored me to death.
But in some sense I respected that approach, I know that stuff is important to people and whatever its fine, dude take that job and that form of criticism for serious, so I respected that.
It felt of my grace when he started complaining about developers having artistic intends, and jumping into the keep the SJWs out of criticism wagon. Yeahh... all form of criticism is bias, we are all political animals wanted or not, we are humans: we exist, we believe in stuff, when we criticize something we speak from our experience... I mean that is how it works. Some people weight the artistic intend of games, some other weight more the technical aspect of a game, total biscuit like to whine about bad ports... whatever, thats fine, there is no need to "hate" on those who doesn't think like you.
Long story short he just seems like an intolerant ass-hat to me, like most of #GG by now, and if you want me to put my Tinfoil hat on... common Youtubers vs Traditional media? like yeah... there sure is not a conflict on interest going on with prominent #GG youtubers fueling this campaign right.... Because ethics!
More_Badass
Member
I'm a gamer, as much as I am a hiker, a writer, a student, etc. I love the medium, but it's just one hobby and one facet of my personality among many.
It's scary that people go so batshit insane over games. It's a great medium, an art form, but still they're just video games.
As someone who identifies as a gamer, it's always weird to me when people say "games don't define me!" and similar stuff. Because... well, of course? Why does it have to be mentioned? I had never seen the term gamer as "someone whose life revolves exclusively around games", in the same way that's not the case for terms like bookworm, cinephile, foodie, history buff, animal lover or whatever.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
That sounds more like you were expecting some group were legetimized over other...
Yeah. I guess my mind can't really process it. I've also been playing games for about the same amount of time (since the 8 bit days) and this all feels so alien to me. I don't remember there ever being this much hate around.
(I can appreciate that games have matured a bit since then, but it's still dizzying. I went to have a look at 8chan to see what was happening over there and realised I was way, way out of my depth.)
I am still really curious why games provoke such vitriol amongst those who play them though. Everything feels so extreme and immature. Is it because it's an immature medium compared to film or literature? Or is it because all gamers are supposedly teenage boys who are disenfranchised and can only view the world via ADS? It's really confusing. I don't see much evidence of a mature discussion around journalistic ethics, but that's probably my ignorance.
Hey, sorry - I'm not sure if that was partially in response to what I said. I was just nosey, that's all. I don't know too many people who play video games outside of GAF so I'm not too knowledgeable on these things. I guess I was just wondering out loud whether for the people who really do feel that games define them are the ones that just have this visceral, id-style response to perceived threats. I didn't mean that if you're a 'gamer' then you do literally nothing but play games - not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that! - so sorry if it came across that way.
Messofanego
Banned
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
I do think a lot of it has to do with the relative immaturity of the medium. It was originally designed as an instant gratification, quickly consumable form of entertainment and only later became more complex. Also, because of the more interactive nature, you get people feeling more personally involved, for better or worse.
More_Badass
Member
Well considering the average age of those who play and buy games is mid-30s, I think the myth that all gamers are crazy teenagers is pretty debunked
I do think it's a young medium, still growing and maturing in many ways, compared to film, literature, music, even comics. I always felt the rise and diversity of indie games was a sign that the industry was maturing, the same way that we can enjoy huge summer blockbusters alongside obscure foreign dramas and arthouse indie films. I still think that
BlastProcessing
Member
Unrelated thought:
How stupid is it that we suffix "-gate" on any scandal. Like, if Watergate happened today would we call it Watergategate? Burglarygate?
How stupid is it that we suffix "-gate" on any scandal. Like, if Watergate happened today would we call it Watergategate? Burglarygate?
I´m not a native english speaker, but yeah... even from outside, seems silly. I take it as a red light: I probably should not involve in whatever this *insert movement*gate thing is.
jim-jam bongs
Member
Watergateghazi
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Watergate 2: The Renixoning.
Watergate is the reason -gate gets tagged onto scandals so presumably no. Whatever other big scandal that reached such highs and had a memorable title would likely see itself get attached it other scandals.
That's true.
I hope so. I actually feel it's a really good time to be a 'gamer' or someone who enjoys games or however you like to identify yourself. Probably the best time since the first PlayStation, the Saturn, the PC days of Lucasarts and the N64 imo. There's so much diversity and it's wonderful.
You just don't see Michael Bay fans giving death threats to feminist critics of his portrayal of women! There's still that dispute going on, but just not in a violent way. I wish I could remember some of the outrages that have happened in the past. I guess I'm thinking of the "riots" at the Rite of Spring, or maybe some of the protests against art movements. Even then, it never appeared to be quite as extreme as this.
To be honest, my life would be infinitely richer had I never heard the phrase "social justice warrior"! It all feels so backward.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Lack of perspective
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
BlastProcessing
Member
Oh I know, it's just things seem to have crystallized around gate for some reason. Like with all other things I blame the internet. It would be cooler if we started naming everyscandal after the Teapot Dome Scandal. #gamerdome #teapotantenna
Whitewatergateghazi
I've been happy self-identifying to any and all about being a 'gamer' for many years. It wasn't until #gamergate (or the Five Guys crusade) that I was reluctant to think of myself that way. Watching gamers turn into bullies while yelling, "Ethical Journalism" was turning my stomach.
Seeing the people I love in games get farther and farther away from #gamergate is rescuing the word 'gamer' for me.
Seeing the people I love in games get farther and farther away from #gamergate is rescuing the word 'gamer' for me.
More_Badass
Member
Yeah but those protests against art movements don't include rape and death threats (right?). They're actually sane civilized protests.
More_Badass
Member
Watergate 2
Wat3rgat3
Watergate: The Watergating
Watergateception
Gate (the inevitable gritty reboot)
Neoriceisgood
Member
Is it just me or has the number of outspoken anti-gGers participating in this thread increased?
I remember like a week or so ago it felt a lot less cozy in here.
I remember like a week or so ago it felt a lot less cozy in here.
That's exactly what I mean. This just boggles my mind.
tonysidaway
Member
In the back of my mind I've always thought of gamers ("serious gamers ") as people who have invested money in equipment for the sole purpose of gaming. As a computer programmer, for instance, using a sane operating system I have no need to spend money on a modern laptop; a really cheap one that was top of the range 7 years ago and costs less than £100 now is more than enough for anything I need to do. But it would be hopeless for gaming so I would have had to spend much more for a laptop or use a desktop computer and an expensive graphics card. Similarly the only reason I possess a PS3 is because it's very useful for watching BBC iPlayer and Blu-Ray discs. I don't play games enough to warrant buying a console (though I love Portal 2 on PS3 and I'm considering buying Bayonetta 1.)
So I'd say that I'm not a serious gamer in the same sense that others in this forum may be. There is a financial outlay involved that I don't find worthwhile for me. By contrast, my adult daughter is an enthusiastic PC gamer; she is willing to spend whatever it takes to get the optimum experience of her chosen games. My son also plays but he buys games second hand and uses the PS3. He seems to have inherited my frugality.
You know, I've been reading this thread for (what feels like) forever and I'd just like to throw something out there.
I'm not a huge videogame guy; I spend way more time listening to music and hoarding fancy books (although Forza Horizon has been a beautiful, beautiful time sink lately). I also have a little-ish daughter who likes to do whatever I happen to be doing. If I'm sitting in front of the televison playing something and she plunks down next to me and says "Let's play Peggle 2" or whatever, I find myself subconsciously redirecting her toward reading a book together, or playing that crystal blue vinyl copy of Frozen that she made me buy because she "wanted her own record". And that sucks, because I know that there are games that she would absolutely love to play. She has an interest, but I feel that there are lot lot of things around videogame culture that are hostile to her. Even something as simple as playing Forza Horizon and her asking, "How come you can only play as a boy?". That shouldn't be a question that could be met with hostility, ya know?
Anyway, as I said before, criticism and change need to happen so games can be for everyone. I know it's possible to make amazing, beautiful, thought-provoking games; I've seen 'em (Flower, Journey, Braid, Depression Quest et al). We need to do more of that, mainly so I won't have to squint at my cellphone because my daughter wants me to watch her play Candy Crush or Mabel's Hair Farm/Nail Salon.
I'm not a huge videogame guy; I spend way more time listening to music and hoarding fancy books (although Forza Horizon has been a beautiful, beautiful time sink lately). I also have a little-ish daughter who likes to do whatever I happen to be doing. If I'm sitting in front of the televison playing something and she plunks down next to me and says "Let's play Peggle 2" or whatever, I find myself subconsciously redirecting her toward reading a book together, or playing that crystal blue vinyl copy of Frozen that she made me buy because she "wanted her own record". And that sucks, because I know that there are games that she would absolutely love to play. She has an interest, but I feel that there are lot lot of things around videogame culture that are hostile to her. Even something as simple as playing Forza Horizon and her asking, "How come you can only play as a boy?". That shouldn't be a question that could be met with hostility, ya know?
Anyway, as I said before, criticism and change need to happen so games can be for everyone. I know it's possible to make amazing, beautiful, thought-provoking games; I've seen 'em (Flower, Journey, Braid, Depression Quest et al). We need to do more of that, mainly so I won't have to squint at my cellphone because my daughter wants me to watch her play Candy Crush or Mabel's Hair Farm/Nail Salon.
ShockingAlberto
Member
This sort of comment doesn't make any sense because I've never been particularly pro-gamergate or felt like they were anything more than a hate group striking at phantoms that they have been unable to properly identify.
This isn't about stances, it's not two people looking at the same thing and there being two entirely valid stances. There is one group that wants to stop being attacked and wants more inclusiveness while the other group doesn't and is willing to harass and threaten to get it done. This is not two sides of congress arguing about tort reform, it is one side arguing and the other side pointing a gun at them if they don't change their votes.
So, yes, fucking obviously I expected Jeff to legitimize one group over the other because not doing so allows truly terrible people to believe they're not all bad and their opponents aren't all good.
This is what Gamergate does:
So forgive me for being unhappy when someone says "Silence isn't complicity," because that is an excuse and a bad one, at that.
BlastProcessing
Member
I did like that!
tonysidaway
Member
I favour -ghazi, but only for clearly bogus scandals, such as this Gamerghazi nonsense we're discussing now.
Even links back most of the sources to GAF's dLMN8R
Yeah, I'm happy that someone took my disorganized mess of a post and cleaned it up a bit.
More_Badass
Member
You should come by the Indie Game threads, we find awesome artistic games every month and more often than not, they're free or have free alpha/betas
If you have high enough specs, check out Ultraworld
Mirrormoon EP is also really lovely and compelling due to the discovery and art style
And then we have upcoming games like Vane
So yeah those kinds of games are thriving, don't worry
ShockingAlberto
Member
I've been here since the beginning, but in the last week:
- I have seen friends express fear about receiving this level of harassment
- I have had people threaten me with private information
- I have seen people, here, on this board, write off death threats as attention-seeking
- I have seen good journalists reconsider their careers because this is not an audience they feel they can serve anymore
At the beginning, I just thought this was all sort of dumb. Now I fear for my hobby and I'm actively angry.
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
Not to get too specific but may I ask what you do?
Feel free to ignore that if you think it's too personal obviously, I'm just curious why people would threaten you.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Exactly. This can't be allowed to go on, and the apathy from people who don't care as long as AAA Game 25 still comes out is infuriating.
I couldn't really get behind that particular paragraph of the GB statement, but what we have to put in perspective is that Jeff has been on the receiving end of abuse and (very scary/personal) threats on and off for almost two decades (don't need to remind you guys about 8.8). He's also supported and coached his employee through a very intense (and ongoing) hate campaign which even targeted his family.
I believe it was well intentioned and an extension of a legitimate strategy he's used to deal with similar shit throughout his entire life, and dismissing it is kinda arrogant and presumptuous considering none of us have lived it.
I believe it was well intentioned and an extension of a legitimate strategy he's used to deal with similar shit throughout his entire life, and dismissing it is kinda arrogant and presumptuous considering none of us have lived it.
Huh interesting. Serendipitous anyway. What a weird promotion then! The game selection is obviously themed but the copy doesn't call out or motivate the theme at all? So they're making a statement but there's no context in the timing nor in the promotion itself to interpret what it means?
Still cool they put it together.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Nothing!
I'm just vocal about it on twitter, use the gamergate hashtag liberally, recorded a podcast where I talked about condemning gamergate, and one of my anti-GG tweets got retweeted in to the hundreds.
I imagine when you have my full name and my twitter handle, it's not hard to find other information. I'm also friends with other developers who are on SJW-hatelists (one of whom was saying today people were passing around her joke tweets as "an SJW gameplan" in gamergate discussion boards), so I'm sure that doesn't help.
Do you mean when Boogie was posting? It seemed like there was a surge of activity at that point. There were a lot of people popping out to support him. I mean, he was obviously not in a healthy place, and we all should hope that he ends up alright. But his actual participation in this discussion was really disruptive largely because of that.
Maybe there have been more people coming in now that this is getting more and more attention. That's hardly unthinkable.
I feel the same way.
I don't think I've been active enough though. I should be but I do get really mentally exhausted with all this because I often feel like I'm speaking to a wall with all these GGers. None of them understand words. That just adds to the anger.
What do you fear will happen to your (our!) hobby?
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