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Xbox 360: A Graphics Whore discussion.

FightyF

Banned
Are you impressed? To answer you must give a brief description of why or why not.

One of very most apparent effect the 360 has had on many gamers here is that we are clearly reaching a point of "diminishing returns".

There are perhaps better phrases to describe the phenomenon, but I'm referring to how upgrades in visuals go almost un-noticed to the layman, and thus a jump in graphics isn't seen by most gamers. There are a few whores who will notice these differences, but there is much evidence on this very forum that people can't tell the difference between a real-time dynamically created shadow, and one that isn't.

Comments have been made (on this very forum) that it's simply [insert current gen title here] in high res. These are totally off the mark, yet the general public may feel the same way, most people simply may not see the difference. Especially when considering that they would be playing it on a standard 4:3 640 by 480 TV. It may look cleaner, but that's it.

My personal opinion is that most 360 games look like pre-rendered CG. The models are round enough, the multitexturing gives everything a seemingly endless amount of geometry, and the lighting is absolutely excellent.

Some games are absolute duds, and I fear that many developers won't know how to use this power effectively. Secondly, how do you make current games look better?

For example, if you were in charge of artistic direction, how would you make Burnout 3 look better? Of course, higher res, more particles, better lighting/shadows/reflections...but we're reaching a point where realism isn't being held back by hardware, but by the artists. More realistic colours is a given, but that could have been attained on current consoles.

I'm impressed by the developers who want to do more. As I predicted in many other threads (it was an obvious point), Visual Concepts would be leading the way in this manner.

On the other hand, games like Tony Hawk look horrible. A game like Dead Or Alive looks great, but as many saw Soul Calibur 2 on the GC on the same level as SC1 on the DC (there was a difference in graphical prowess, but because of the similar art style many people didn't see an upgrade), people will see the new DoA as a slight upgrade over the last one (again, due to the art). Again, the whores notice the difference, and the normals (thank you Warrior) don't see any.

I'm impressed by the power of the console, but I'm only being impressed by a handful of games. These games are visually ambitious, and do more than just look great, they move/animate great. But what I do notice is that the law of videogame graphic "diminishing returns" is out in full force, and people may not see this generation as a big leap over the last.
 

Razoric

Banned
This is not diminishing returns... These are BAD GRAPHICS.

PDZero looks worse than current Xbox / PS2 games. How can people keep throwing that phrase out?

When games look like FFX CGI, Shrek, real life, etc then we'll talk about diminishing returns.
 
in retrospect, I'm still hyped for the machine. Sure PD0 looks like shit, but the other games look pretty hot. And I love everything about the hardware that we know so far. Here's hoping for a solid launch, even if PD0 is a POS.
 

sly

Banned
Fight for Freeform said:
Are you impressed? To answer you must give a brief description of why or why not.

One of very most apparent effect the 360 has had on many gamers here is that we are clearly reaching a point of "diminishing returns".


Sorry. I stopped reading there. This has nothing to do with diminishing returns; did you see the PD0 screens????
 

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
I think we might be reaching a point of dimishing returns with what has been the current concept of 3D modeling and rendering. In a nutshell, what people are expecting is true "CGI graphics". But it's misleading to say that this is just a Jedi Mind Trick created by CG standards always moving forward. While it's true that CG is always getting better, CG has also always used styles of rendering (such as true ray-tracing) that real time graphics still can't use.

We're reaching a point where it seems as if our game graphics "should" suddenly become the style of rendering and visual quality we think of as CGI. Except it looks as if we're still a generation or two away from really seeing the ability to have graphics created in that way, to provie the elusive look that people want. I wonder if this gen, no matter how hard artist try and how good they get, it's still going to be a matter of being constrained to refining the way we have been doing things.
 
You are not a graphics whore and there won't be any major differences between the 3 next-gen consoles.


Some of you people have taking this graphics whore thing a tard too far, whats next?



Anyway as for PD0....only God knows
 

trmas

Banned
I'm hoping the second generation games will be worth buying. I'll wait and see what Nintendo and Sony have to offer before possibly buying one of these machines.

Diminishing returns my ass, the current consoles look almost as good. That's simply bad development.
 
BTW, we're not reaching a point of diminishing returns. Some of those X360 titles look shit hot, it's all about dev time and talent. We'll see closer to launch, I'm betting even the best looking titles look quite a bit better before launch.
 

Agent Icebeezy

Welcome beautful toddler, Madison Elizabeth, to the horde!
I hate sounding like a broken record but

A) less than 100% alpha kit for PD0
B) Check out MTV's site for the trailers and all these stupid threads 'should' cease, but they won't, carry on though
 
I agree with Razoric.

Just because Microsoft doesn't know what the fuck they're doing, doesn't mean Sony and company don't. Sorry, I'd include Nintendo; but I lack faith. ;)

We're seeing a Western console, with games from Western developers. I'm sure if MS showed a Tecmo game, there would at least be some interest piqued. Instead we say more shit framerate me-too racers and PC style games, with no more in the environment, or characters on screen than we've seen before.

This is bullshit.

Diminishing returns my ass. Microsoft is fucking clueless. It shows in their premature launch. It shows in their half baked software. It will show in their sales.

The day I can play a Dynasty Warriors game that matches the intensity of a battle scene in LotR is the day you can lecture me about diminishing returns, until then - SHUT! :D
 
Xbox 360 is looking good. I almost made up my mind that the GC/Xbox1/PS2 would suffice until PS3, but after watching some of those videos at mtv.com Xbox 360 is just looking better and better.

Sure, Dead or Alive 4 looks like shit, as does Perfect Dark Zero.

But, the new Ghost Recon, Gear of Wars, Condemned, Quake 4, NBA2k6 look DAMN good.

So what, out of 10 incomplete shown games 2 or 3 look dissapointing.

That's a good ratio. You don't need every single game released to be happy with an Xbox 360.

God...M$ hype machine is working on the C-Warrior

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
 

IJoel

Member
It has been disappointing so far, since it gives us a glimpse as to what to expect for the launch lineup. Now, I'm not saying that it has all been bad, but there hasn't been a title, or more than a couple of titles to really give that WOW factor that usually comes up when making a generational leap.

In some ways, this issue is greatly magnified by the horrendous showing of PD0. Complete disaster. Halo 2, Doom 3, Riddick and many other games look better. Sure, this is something perhaps expected of some indy 3rd party developer, but this is RARE and they've been supposedly working at it for years.

Gears of War looks very promising, but barely any footage was shown. The same goes for PGR3.

Ghost Recon was perhaps the best looking title of the bunch, and it might have to do with how complete the title is.

MS dropped the ball BIG TIME, considering they need to win over the 'hardcore' crowd that usually looks at this kind of stuff and they did nothing but underwhelm and disappoint. I wish it would've been a matter of unrealistic expectations, but nope, that's certainly not the case. Any chance they had of convincing other platform owners to get Xbox 360 this evening was tossed to the garbage (save for, perhaps, an excellent showing at E3.)
 

mashoutposse

Ante Up
When games look like this in realtime, then graphics have reached the point of diminishing returns:

2-days-to-vegas-20050428111814229.jpg


Then again, absolutely no one would be complaining...
 
C- Warrior said:
Xbox 360 is looking good. I almost made up my mind that the GC/Xbox1/PS2 would suffice until PS3, but after watching some of those videos at mtv.com Xbox 360 is just looking better and better.

Sure, Dead or Alive 4 looks like shit, as does Perfect Dark Zero.

But, the new Ghost Recon, Gear of Wars, Condemned, Quake 4, NBA2k6 look DAMN good.

So what, out of 10 incomplete shown games 2 or 3 look dissapointing.

That's a good ratio. You don't need every single game released to be happy with an Xbox 360.

God...M$ hype machine is working on the C-Warrior

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

I agree. This reminds me of Xbox's E3 2001 showing, there was a lot of complaints of bad framerates, or few games looking truly great. Whatever, in the long run MS showed everyone that they had awesome hardware. Just reading up on the hardware makes me think that this thing is going to pump out some fantastic stuff.
 

FightyF

Banned
PD0 is an obvious exception. I think everyone can agree on that.

Besides that ONE GAME (and perhaps a game like Tony Hawk), if you are unimpressed, then that means you don't notice the upgrades in visuals.

Thus you are living proof that there are diminishing returns and you can't notice the difference between a game like Test Drive 360, and GT4. Another example, the new DoA, compared to DoA Ultimate.
 
Ghost Reacon is probably the best looking game, and in all honesty, it still isn't a huge leap over the current XBOX. At least not like the leap from PSX/N64 to PS2/GCN/XBOX.

Graphics still have a lot of room to get better. Just because the XBOX360 games shown are technically superior to this generation's games does not mean they *look* better. Maybe the average gamer would notice the difference easier if there was more of a difference in the first place. Or perhaps developers are just poorly using the resources at hand.
 

FightyF

Banned
mashoutposse said:
When games look like this in realtime, then graphics have reached the point of diminishing returns:

2-days-to-vegas-20050428111814229.jpg


Then again, absolutely no one would be complaining...

But that picture has more to do with art than graphical prowess.
 

Razoric

Banned
Fight for Freeform said:
Thus you are living proof that there are diminishing returns and you can't notice the difference between a game like Test Drive 360, and GT4. Another example, the new DoA, compared to DoA Ultimate.

Uh no it's proof that they are nothing more than upgraded versions of what we have already played. They don't look anymore real, they didn't change the art style, they just added more polygons. It has nothing to do with the law of diminishing returns it has to do with rushed games. If Xbox 360 can't handle graphics any better than that then next-gen is coming TOO SOON.
 

mashoutposse

Ante Up
Ghost Recon 3 is basically Mercenaries/Killzone with a Wreckless-style filter over it. XBOX could definitely do justice to the game in its current state.
 

Joe

Member
watch the videos on mtv.com

i was dissapointed with pd0, and slightly with doa4 but my faith was restored after seeing those videos.

all the videos they have are awesome in terms of first-gen launch graphics and animation.
 

PhatSaqs

Banned
Ghost Recon 3 is basically Mercenaries/Killzone with a Wreckless-style filter over it. XBOX could definitely do justice to the game in its current state.
Uhh. No.

Ghost Recon 3: http://www.mtv.com/music/video/index.jhtml?_lpvid=48286
Quake 4: http://www.mtv.com/music/video/index.jhtml?_lpvid=48292
Gears of War: http://www.mtv.com/music/video/index.jhtml?_lpvid=48285
Project Gotham 3: http://www.mtv.com/music/video/index.jhtml?_lpvid=48295
Condemned: http://www.mtv.com/music/video/index.jhtml?_lpvid=48283
NBA 2K6: http://www.mtv.com/music/video/index.jhtml?_lpvid=48291
 

sol5377

Member
patience, fellow gamers. Xbox 360 is sure to have the best launch lineup of any console ever released (imo) before it (PS3 and/or Rev may change that).
 

Mooreberg

Member
Fight for Freeform said:
Thus you are living proof that there are diminishing returns and you can't notice the difference between a game like Test Drive 360, and GT4. Another example, the new DoA, compared to DoA Ultimate.

I think we have to wait to see what the ATI chip in Nintendo's system and the GPU that nVidia is working on before we know if we're hitting "diminishing returns." I certainly hope whatever is revealed next week is more impressive than what we saw tonight.
 
Joe said:
watch the videos on mtv.com

i was dissapointed with pd0, and slightly with doa4 but my faith was restored after seeing those videos.

all the videos they have are awesome in terms of first-gen launch graphics and animation.


Totally Agree.

Gears of War, GR3 and PGR3 were next gen easily!
 

TheDuce22

Banned
Some of the games show alot of promise. Some of them look really bad. I think Microsoft should have picked some of the better looking games to show off and come up with some tech demos. When ps2 launched sony wasnt promoting this.

summoner43.jpg


Thats the equivalent of what MS did by featuring PD0. I am still really excited for the next generation and I seriously doubt the difference in power between the console will have that great of an impact.
 

mashoutposse

Ante Up
Fight for Freeform said:
But that picture has more to do with art than graphical prowess.

It looks photorealistic and very next-gen. It doesn't look like something that could be replicated with current gen hardware. When I saw these for the first time a week or two ago, my jaw hit the motherfuckin ground...

2-days-to-vegas-20050428111818510.jpg


Looks about 10-20 times better than anything shown tonight.
 

newsguy

Member
mashoutposse said:
Ghost Recon 3 is basically Mercenaries/Killzone with a Wreckless-style filter over it. XBOX could definitely do justice to the game in its current state.

I disagree. As an HDTV buff I have played most of what XBOX has to offer in terms of 720p (and the couple of 1080i games). Seeing these trailers and realizing that they will run at 720p or 1080i at 60 or even 30 FPS is impressive on it's own. The animation in GR3 trumps mercenaries in every way. Even the building that exploded puts the awesome mercenaries explosions to shame. Then I think to myself, "all of this with a smooth framerate and ultra crisp high definition visuals" and I have seen "next-gen." For those who are just getting HDTV's and want to see how crisp the visuals can be, play MVP baseball or XMEN legends in 720p.
 
MS doesn't seem to be focusing on gfx this time around. Image Xbox Live and being first to the market seems to be the main thing for them right now.

I guess the idea is that the mainstream MTV crowd cant tell the difference anyway which is sort of true.
 

Fusebox

Banned
I really can't decide what's worse - those PD0 screens, or retards who think that's going to be the height of X360 graphics.

And newsguy is right - as another HDTV owner, I can apppreciate how good this gen will be if the games finally start to look as good on my TV as they do on the interweb.
 

Azrael

Member
Some of the games show alot of promise. Some of them look really bad. I think Microsoft should have picked some of the better looking games to show off and come up with some tech demos. When ps2 launched sony wasnt promoting this.

While the worst looking PS2 launch games looked bad against the best looking Dreamcast titles at the time, you would never mistake them for an N64/PSOne game. I don't think the same can be said about PD0 and GC/X-Box/PS2 games.

But I have no doubt that PD0 will look like a completely different game when it's finally released. It has to. They cannot ship the game in anything close to the state it's in now. And the game won't make launch. Mark my words, PD0 will not be released for another 1-2 years. There are no parallels between what we saw of PD0 today and Halo's stuttering framerate at E3 2001. This is not something four months of optimization is going to fix.

I think Microsoft made a blunder by relying on Rare for its flagship launch title. The Rare that made games like Goldeneye no longer exists. I was skeptical about MS putting too much faith in Rare, but based on what posters like chespace were saying, I was hoping I'd be proven wrong.
 

mashoutposse

Ante Up
Gears of War looks extremely impressive, slow framerate notwithstanding.

GC3 is definitely impressive, but it just doesn't feel all that next-gen. It looks to be *just* outside of the capabilities of XBOX, but not far and away superior as one expects from new hardware. My impression of it is as high as it is because practically everything else has been completely underwhelming.
 

FightyF

Banned
Uh no it's proof that they are nothing more than upgraded versions of what we have already played. They don't look anymore real, they didn't change the art style, they just added more polygons. It has nothing to do with the law of diminishing returns it has to do with rushed games. If Xbox 360 can't handle graphics any better than that then next-gen is coming TOO SOON.

You are effectivelly agreeing with my point about (and let me bold this) diminishing returns.

Extra polygons, extra effects, etc didn't do much since the returns (ie. having your jaw hit the floor) has been minimized. Doubling the poly count, adding real-time dynamic shadows, etc. with the same style of art didn't amaze you.

Quadrupuling the poly count isn't impressing anyone. It may have worked years ago when we went from a 300 poly character to a 1200 poly character, but nowadays people won't be impressed. My basis for this arguement? Razoric's reaction. :)

It looks photorealistic and very next-gen. It doesn't look like something that could be replicated with current gen hardware. When I saw these for the first time a week or two ago, my jaw hit the motherfuckin ground...

Maybe most developers aren't ready for the hardware upgrade? This PC game was probably as a result of playing around with the latest hardware and putting it to good use. Again, as I said, this has to do with art and not hardware. I'm sure that title could be ported to the 360/PS3 with no issues.
 

gohepcat

Banned
Fight for Freeform said:
But that picture has more to do with art than graphical prowess.

BINGO!

I've got a buddy that worked on SWAT 4. He's been telling me for a while that the Xbox 360 and PS3 have so much power that developers simply don't have the time/energy/skill to make games look so impressive that you are stunned.

He's spoken to the guys that developed the Unreal3 demo and they were talking about the stunning amount of time it took to create just the simple city that they were showing.

It's not for lack of power. Put these same games on the PS3, or even the PS4 and they would look the same. You simply do not have the budget and the time to render individual hairs, and every chipped piece of paint on a wall.

We have reached the point of diminishing returns folks. Do you have any idea what it's like to fill 512MBs worth of ram with graphics and gameplay? You could fit the entire Mario 64 game 64 times into the RAM of the Xbox 360!

It's all in the hands of the tool writers now. Developers need to stop this stupid shit of writing a new engine for every game. Stop fucking wasting your time in that pissing contest and hire kids out of art school. Stop hiring all these geeks.

Ohh and BTW the Depth of Field effect in these games is INCREDABLY GPU intensive...it's just not impressive looking. The 360 has the power...no one knows WTF to do with it is all.
 

Rhindle

Member
Well, I've been telling people for about 6 months now to get their expectations in check.

This is a subject for a much lengthy write-up at some point -- but I'll just say that the main constraint on next-gen games is not going to be gigaflops.

The main constraint is going to be how mind-numbingly time-consuming and EXPENSIVE it is to create fully-modelled HD-res environmentss and animate multi-million polygon models, with the primitive tools devs now have available. This will change, with time.

I expect the learning curve to be more gradual and more dramatic this gen than in any past generation.
 

thorns

Banned
It's not the hardware that's not impressive, it's just the develoeprs have not caught on yet. They will, but it will take time.

GOF1.jpg
 

Razoric

Banned
Fight for Freeform said:
You are effectivelly agreeing with my point about (and let me bold this) diminishing returns.

Extra polygons, extra effects, etc didn't do much since the returns (ie. having your jaw hit the floor) has been minimized. Doubling the poly count, adding real-time dynamic shadows, etc. with the same style of art didn't amaze you.

Quadrupuling the poly count isn't impressing anyone. It may have worked years ago when we went from a 300 poly character to a 1200 poly character, but nowadays people won't be impressed. My basis for this arguement? Razoric's reaction. :)

Edit: much of this post is based off of EAs Games, DOA4 and Perfect Dark Zero. Lay down the pitchforks bots. :(

Perfect Dark Zero looks WORSE than some current gen games.

If your diminishing returns statement had any weight, why are people impressed with Doom 3? Halo 2? Why does Chaos Theory look a lot better than Pandora Tomorrow and they are only a year apart? Answer? The developers. The meld art and technology together. They don't just add more polygons, they add them where it counts (hell Halo 2 had LESS polygons per character than Halo 1). People aren't impressed with half this Xbox 360 shit because it's just more of the same. It's just slightly beefed up versions of games we've played for the past 4-5 years.

You're diminished returns shit will go right out the window when we see more impressive titles at E3 that don't just beef up current gen's polygon count.
 
I'm somewhat impressed. I don't think any of these games are running right now with code optimized for the final Xbox 360 hardware. I know that PGR3 and Gods of War look amazing right now. So if that's what 1st gen Xbox 360 titles can look like then I can't wait to see titles a few years down the road.

But I guess I was assuming that Microsoft was going to hide the dirty laundry with games that clearly look inferior. And the worst part is their flagship title looks subpar graphically at the moment from what we saw. So I see some good and bad things right now. Which is pretty much what one would expect for a console launch.

.. from what I've seen there is no jump, at all, from Xbox to Xbox 360.

You must be blind then. How can anyone have a rational discussion with you about anything? Just curious.
 

Fusebox

Banned
Razoric said:
Again you still don't understand... from what I've seen there is no jump, at all, from Xbox to Xbox 360.

So you're saying that everybody who can see a jump is making it up? Am I imagining that the DOA4 screens blow away what I think of DOAU?

Maybe you need to just get your eyes checked. :)
 

Razoric

Banned
Fusebox said:
So you're saying that everybody who can see a jump is making it up? Am I imagining that the DOA4 screens blow away what I think of DOAU?

Maybe you need to just get your eyes checked. :)

DOA4 looks this gen (minus the backgrounds)... sorry dude.

Just got done watching the videos, some impressive btw
Gears of Wear - freakin awesome
PGR3 - need to see more of it but looked better than anything out there now
Condemned - looked a bit current-gen PCish but the lighting was great

My main argument was based on what I saw of Perfect Dark Zero. I'm still watching the other vids. :)

Don't blame me for making judgement on Microsofts much hyped flagship title... I didnt make those shitty graphics. :)
 

gohepcat

Banned
What I think is funny is that all these past 4 years of screenshots taken from the framebuffer @ 1024x768 with 4Xaa turned on is biting everyone in the ass.

Now that you actually have games that run at that res with free AA, your screenshots look like shit.

All of these games are gonna look stunning on my 50" 720p DLP.
 

Fusebox

Banned
True that, HDTV owners know where it's at.

For years we've been seeing screens like this, people get them home and put them on composite connections on CRT TVs and they don't mind when the actual game doesn't look anything like the screens.

Imo this gen will be all about those screenshots staying that damn good when they hit my HDTV screen,
 
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