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[CabbageRed]

The GameInformer shots of Gears of War certainly suggests that the hardware is up to the task of being "next gen" and we just need to wait for dev's to tap into it.

 

[rastex]

That means MS is launching too early.

Dude, EVERY launch is like this. Wanna hear something interesting? Before the PS2 launched in Japan some of the devkits didn't even have sound chips, they had emulators, but no actual sound chips. Meaning the first time they heard sound from their game coming out of the PS2 is when it was on the store shelves.

LEARN ABOUT DEVELOPMENT PEOPLE AND STOP MAKING ASININE COMMENTS.

 

[Agisthos]

If you compare PD0 to those MTV movies Im certain that the PD0 screens are a leak of Gamecube work in progress stuff that has been hastily ported over.

 

[FightyF]

It's just slightly beefed up versions of games we've played for the past 4-5 years.

And the beefing up doesn't impress you. Which is what I'm meaning my "DR". And your statements agree with that point.

Let's say we doubled the poly count of these Xbox 360 titles. I'm sure they still won't impress you.

The returns they are getting, despite pumping things up with more and more polys, effects, and higher res textures...is quite minimal it seems.

I do understand what you are looking for. Something completely new that takes advantage of the hardware? But what else can you really do, besides doing what we do now, but better?

Think on this, how can Konami make MGS4 on the PS3 look awesome? The obvious answers would include "more polys", "more and sharper textures", "more animations", "more effects".

But take a look at DoA:360, that's exactly what has happened and people aren't impressed.

gohepcat and Rhindle: That's a point that I should have emphasized, I'm in full agreement.

DOA4 looks this gen (minus the backgrounds)... sorry dude.

This is proof that developers are facing diminishing returns. You even think it looks "this gen" despite increased texture clarity, far better lighting, insane amounts of geometry (that's being used for ripples on the clothes, etc.). This is a textbook case of diminishing returns.

 

[Pedigree Chum]

This is proof that developers are facing diminishing returns. You even think it looks "this gen" despite increased texture clarity, far better lighting, insane amounts of geometry (that's being
used for ripples on the clothes, etc.). This is a textbook case of diminishing returns.

NO IT"S NOT

The problem is that console devs aren't used to working on machines with this much power, they're still getting accustomed to it. Consoles are teh same for 5 years, PC tech is always evolving, and PC devs (like Epic) are always evolving with it. It's no woner why Gears of War spanks everything else shown.

 

[gofreak]

I haven't read the entire thread, but my thoughts:

1) I'm disappointed with what I'm seeing, Gears of War aside. But figuring I thought this would at least be "the standard" for all..

2) We've not reached the point of diminishing returns AT ALL. There's far more we should be able to do than this. Recent PC games look better than some of this stuff. I think/hope this point will be proven with the other consoles at E3. Anyone still betting "we won't see a difference"?

NO IT"S NOT

The problem is that console devs aren't used to working on machines with this much power, they're still getting accustomed to it. Consoles are teh same for 5 years, PC tech is always evolving, and PC devs (like Epic) are always evolving with it. It's no woner why Gears of War spanks everything else shown.

Maybe..though in previous gens they didn't seem to have a problem. Maybe the lack of BIG developers on X360 is hurting it. If Namco, Capcom, Square were showing stuff, I'm not sure if we'd be having this discussion.

 

[Flo_Evans]

Diminishing returns my ass. If you can't put out graphics where any asshole off the street can tell the diffrence, go back to the lab and call me when your shit is noticably better than what we have. Now, don't get me wrong, these screens and movies look better than the stuff we have now. But its only a notch above. The PS2 was a notch above the DC, and the xbox was a notch above the PS2. If the XBOX didn't kill sony with that notch, how the hell do they think they are going to improve thier marketshare with just a notch above themselves?

the PS1 > DC was a fucking leap in graphics. If we are not ready for that same leap then it is way to early to release new hardware.

 

[Pedigree Chum]

Maybe..though in previous gens they didn't seem to have a problem. Maybe the lack of BIG developers on X360 is hurting it. If Namco, Capcom, Square were showing stuff, I'm not sure if we'd be having this discussion.

That's probably true. At least if Bungie would have shown off something...all would be good. But I must say that The Darkness impresses big time IMO.

 

[Endymion]

Are you impressed? To answer you must give a brief description of why or why not.

I am disappointed to say the least. Even the best looking games look like today's standard PC games (and I am talking about Gears of War here, and that only). PGR3 looks decent but... just that. And for the rest, it's either games fugly as hell or generic stuff at best. Damn, and I was so excited as of yesterday. Where's that feeling that makes you go "WOW"

 

[Timbuktu]

Maybe..though in previous gens they didn't seem to have a problem. Maybe the lack of BIG developers on X360 is hurting it. If Namco, Capcom, Square were showing stuff, I'm not sure if we'd be having this discussion.

I'm just thinking whether this means that only the very big developers are going to be able to take advantage of next-gen's power and half of the others will bite the dust. Is it about catching on? Or about having enough resources?

 

[SolidSnakex]

Think on this, how can Konami make MGS4 on the PS3 look awesome? The obvious answers would include "more polys", "more and sharper textures", "more animations", "more effects".

But take a look at DoA:360, that's exactly what has happened and people aren't impressed.

So you expect for people to be able to look as Snakes model in the next MGS and look at his model in MGS3 and not be able to really tell a difference outside of the clothing?

 

[DopeyFish]

Diminishing returns my ass. If you can't put out graphics where any asshole off the street can tell the diffrence, go back to the lab and call me when your shit is noticably better than what we have. Now, don't get me wrong, these screens and movies look better than the stuff we have now. But its only a notch above. The PS2 was a notch above the DC, and the xbox was a notch above the PS2. If the XBOX didn't kill sony with that notch, how the hell do they think they are going to improve thier marketshare with just a notch above themselves?

the PS1 > DC was a fucking leap in graphics. If we are not ready for that same leap then it is way to early to release new hardware.

There was always 4 major steps in a generational leap.

Gameplay
Image Quality/Resolution/Color depth
Graphic Complexity
Audio fidelity

The gameplay and graphic complexity will go up as usual, but the current running generation is really close compared to the next in regards to IQ and audio fidelity. You already have game systems running in HD (though not standard), you already have games in 5.1 (not entirely standard again)... games are already running in 32-bit color... the jaggies aren't so bad anymore....

The leap won't be as profound as other generations which is true... but still the graphic whores should be quite pleased. After seeing Gears of war in action I've lost my jaw.

 

[Sathsquatch]

I am disappointed to say the least. Even the best looking games look like today's standard PC games (and I am talking about Gears of War here, and that only).

I would like to know what standard PC game out today looks like Gears of War.

 

[Teddman]

One of very most apparent effect the 360 has had on many gamers here is that we are clearly reaching a point of "diminishing returns".

There are perhaps better phrases to describe the phenomenon, but I'm referring to how upgrades in visuals go almost un-noticed to the layman, and thus a jump in graphics isn't seen by most gamers. There are a few whores who will notice these differences, but there is much evidence on this very forum that people can't tell the difference between a real-time dynamically created shadow, and one that isn't.

...but we're reaching a point where realism isn't being held back by hardware, but by the artists.

I agree with the original post. The most important point is that you have to understand the amount of time it takes developers to harness the power of the next-gen machines to the fullest. Texture detail, model details, lighting, bump maps, all aspects of development you hardly had to think about two generations ago. Some of these games (Gears of War) have a level of detail on par with a CG feature film.

Here's what is meant by "diminishing returns":

PSOne-Saturn-N64 era was about the transition to rudimentary 3D graphics. Huge leap.

Dreamcast-PS2-GameCube-Xbox gen was about the refining of 3D graphics, lighting, texture detail, etc. 3D finally looked good.

The next gen is going to be the second refinement of 3D. There aren't any huge barriers to break anymore. It doesn't mean that the graphics will not be impressive, but they won't automatically blow the previous gen away on hardware ability alone.

 

[Cerebral Palsy]

I was pretty impressed by PD0. Looked good. Expecially the subway level.

 

[FightyF]

So you expect for people to be able to look as Snakes model in the next MGS and look at his model in MGS3 and not be able to really tell a difference outside of the clothing?

I expect a similar reaction, not exactly the same (about the clothing). I can see extra detail in Snake's face, and more facial expressions being the most obvious upgrades for most people, but besides that it's going to be very much the same to these people.

 

[Timbuktu]

I agree with the original post. The most important point is that you have to understand the amount of time it takes developers to harness the power of the next-gen machines to the fullest. Texture detail, model details, lighting, bump maps, all aspects of development you hardly had to think about two generations ago. Some of these games (Gears of War) have a level of detail on par with a CG feature film.

Here's what is meant by "diminishing returns":

PSOne-Saturn-N64 era was about the transition to rudimentary 3D graphics. Huge leap.

Dreamcast-PS2-GameCube-Xbox gen was about the refining of 3D graphics, lighting, texture detail, etc. 3D finally looked good.

The next gen is going to be the second refinement of 3D. There aren't any huge barriers to break anymore. It doesn't mean that the graphics will not be impressive, but they won't automatically blow the previous gen away on hardware ability alone.

Isn't this what Iwata has been saying? That's why we need a REVOLUTION!

 

[FightyF]

I finally saw some of the other titles on the MTV preview... Tony Hawk was as bad as the pics indicated...so extremely horribly bad I couldn't believe it. Same with Tiger Woods. But then again it's an EA game, why did I expect a lot?

 

[SolidSnakex]

I expect a similar reaction, not exactly the same (about the clothing). I can see extra detail in Snake's face, and more facial expressions being the most obvious upgrades for most people, but besides that it's going to be very much the same to these people.

You seem to be completely locked into peoples reaction to DoA4 though. Compare their reactions to those of Gears of War where people are impressed by what the graphics. If anything this will be the generation where the really top tier developers in graphics really seperate themself from everyone else.

 

[Timbuktu]

You seem to be completely locked into peoples reaction to DoA4 though. Compare their reactions to those of Gears of War where people are impressed by what the graphics. If anything this will be the generation where the really top tier developers in graphics really seperate themself from everyone else.

And that's a good thing. At the end, we might just be left with a handful of developers who are big enough to keep up in the graphics race.

 

[gofreak]

Isn't this what Iwata has been saying? That's why we need a REVOLUTION!

Increasingly, I'm believing this.

I'd be surprised and highly disappointed if the PS3 and/or Rev games didn't exceed the standard being set by X360 here though (graphically). I don't think we've hit a ceiling with graphics at all. I'm hoping E3 will prove that.

 

[FightyF]

You seem to be completely locked into peoples reaction to DoA4 though. Compare their reactions to those of Gears of War where people are impressed by what the graphics. If anything this will be the generation where the really top tier developers in graphics really seperate themself from everyone else.

That's because Gears of War is a totally different art style bro. You CANNOT compare the art in that game to DoA!

People aren't impressed by DoA because first and foremost they are comparing it to a last gen title that had an almost exact same art style. Again, refer to my Soul Calibur example.

Gears of War is particularily impressive because it does a lot of things that we don't see much of this gen. That kind of multitexturing IS evident in the DoA shots, but it's not overdone and most people don't even notice it. I don't expect developers like Konami to overdo it as well. The more I think about it, the more I see similar reactions occuring to games like a new Silent Hill or Ace Combat. The games looked great to begin with, and while I would definately notice self shadowing, multitexturing, etc. most probably won't.

 

[mrklaw]

Just watched the games section of the show. The funniest part is the whole 5 minute segment dedicated to that POSPD0. anyway.

I don't give a fuck if they don't have 100% dev kits. Don't make excuses for them. Microsoft chose a worldwide platform to showcase their upcoming new console. To me, that makes them fair game for comebacks. If the hardware/software isn't up to it, don't show the damn thing.

PD0 looking like a sub-Xbox game, Gears of war and call of duty having very ropey framerates. PGR looking like PGR (can't really tell from that little clip)

The only thing that saved the show was Ghost Recon 3, and I can't believe a relatively generic multiplatform title might be saving MS's ass.

Diminishing returns? More like devs not being used to the new way of working - I think the real stand out titles will have to do more with what they've got than simply pump more polys in.


BTW, did anyone hear Rare say the backgrounds in PD0 have 100-300k polys? Thats around 10 million a second. MS really need to stop with the xbox 1 games pushed over to xbox2. Its not going to do them any favours.

 

[Cerebral Palsy]

I must be easily impressed. THPS and Tiger Woods did look pretty shitty though.

 

[DopeyFish]

Increasingly, I'm believing this.

I'd be surprised and highly disappointed if the PS3 and/or Rev games didn't exceed the standard being set by X360 here though (graphically). I don't think we've hit a ceiling with graphics at all. I'm hoping E3 will prove that.

It's like people expect systems to be absolutely used to the max at launch now.

Don't you remember Xbox launch? You had DOA... and Halo. And PGR.

Oddworld? UGH! Azurik?! UGGGGGGH! New Legends?! UGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGH

...


kabuki warriors?

You'll ALWAYS have bad apples at launch as it's the best time to get sales in from launch fever.

Actually by a lot of respects, the Xbox 360 launch absolutely looks killer from a normal launch perspective.

Soon after launch the gears will start moving and the train will start chugging and Xbox 360 will start paving a path to awesomeness, just like Xbox did.

 

[mrklaw]

Increasingly, I'm believing this.

I'd be surprised and highly disappointed if the PS3 and/or Rev games didn't exceed the standard being set by X360 here though (graphically). I don't think we've hit a ceiling with graphics at all. I'm hoping E3 will prove that.

sure, but then the x360 looks technically very capable. 500 million polys, and PD0 is pushing 10? Its the devs/early dev kits. That may not change for PS3/Rev. Some of the developers will be the same.

Xbox 360 needs a storming start to get a big lead before PS3 comes out. For that, it needs momentum. They just lost a whole bunch of that.

 

[gofreak]

It's like people expect systems to be absolutely used to the max at launch now.

Don't you remember Xbox launch? You had DOA... and Halo. And PGR.

These still looked (a lot) better than PC games at the time. They still wowed me.

I'm more commenting on the step up I'm seeing, technically, rather than game quality, btw.

 

[SolidSnakex]

I don't expect developers like Konami to overdo it as well. The more I think about it, the more I see similar reactions occuring to games like a new Silent Hill or Ace Combat. The games looked great to begin with, and while I would definately notice self shadowing, multitexturing, etc. most probably won't.

You mention artstyle, but MGS, AC and SH all lend themself very well to the improvements that next gen can bring, much moreso than DoA. They're all fairly realistic games in terms of looks. While they do look great now there's very clear things that could be improved on all of them. There's nothing in terms of artstyle holding any of those games back from improving alot next gen.

The official UK Playstation mag recently did an interview with Kojima and they said everything right now is pointing toward the next game in the series to take place in a huge city. So there's going to be alot they can do.

 

[FightyF]

You mention artstyle, but MGS, AC and SH all lend themself very well to the improvements that next gen can bring, much moreso than DoA. They're all fairly realistic games in terms of looks. While they do look great now there's very clear things that could be improved on all of them. There's nothing in terms of artstyle holding any of those games back from improving alot next gen.

The official UK Playstation mag recently did an interview with Kojima and they said everything right now is pointing toward the next game in the series to take place in a huge city. So there's going to be alot they can do.

Excellent points!

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

Xbox 360 demos running on Macs

thread discussion should be closed now