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[olympia]

Why are people so eager to celebrate the wrong side of history

 

[Kaladin]

I live in the south so I can add to this a bit. The people who celebrate the rebel flag and use it as a symbol of their culture don't typically do it for racist reasons. It's a symbol of the south, and at most "rebel pride". That's typically all it is to them and they look at people who want to bring the slavery and racial angle to it as ignorant yankees or intellectuals who want to ruin their fun. Even if they do have a bit of a racist tendency to them, the flag doesn't signify that.

I get that people do find it offensive, but in most cases it is harmless and has been repurposed for todays use as a symbol of pride in being from the southern states of America.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

I live in the south so I can add to this a bit. The people who celebrate the rebel flag and use it as a symbol of their culture don't typically do it for racist reasons. It's a symbol of the south, and at most "rebel pride". That's typically all it is to them and they look at people who want to bring the slavery and racial angle to it as ignorant yankees or intellectuals who want to ruin their fun. Even if they do have a bit of a racist tendency to them, the flag doesn't signify that.

I get that people do find it offensive, but in most cases it is harmless and has been repurposed for todays use as a symbol of pride in being from the southern states of America.

Exactly, just like the Swastika is just a symbol of german pride and remembrance of ancestors.

The germans brandishing the swastika are neonazis, but they don't mean it when they wave the swastika.

It's just harmless fun.

 

[Kaladin]

Exactly, just like the Swastika is just a symbol of german pride and remembrance of ancestors.

The germans brandishing the swastika are neonazis, but they don't mean it when they wave the swastika.

It's just harmless fun.

The comparison to the swastika is accurate if there are people who wear the swastika as a symbol of german pride but are not actively associating themselves with the Nazis.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

The comparison to the swastika is accurate if there are people who wear the swastika as a symbol of german pride but are not actively associating themselves with the Nazis.

And I don't associate with the KKK, I just think white pointy hoods are comfy.

 

[Kaladin]

And I don't associate with the KKK, I just think white pointy hoods are comfy.

Look buddy, before you get defensive, I'm not defending it. I'm just trying to explain it from my perspective of having lived with it first hand. This is what I have seen from people I personally know. People that don't live in the south might not understand it the same way.

 

[Stinkles]

Look buddy, before you get defensive, I'm not defending it. I'm just trying to explain it from my perspective of having lived with it first hand. This is what I have seen from people I personally know. People that don't live in the south might not understand it the same way.

The problem is that some people in the south don't seem to understand it either.

It's kind of becoming a n oft repeated deliberate fiction, like Reagan's economic record. Or Japan's record on the abuse of women during the war.

You don't get to reinvent history to suit yourself. The civil war was about slavery and the confederate flag is both banner and standard of the South in that war.

 

[Kaladin]

The problem is that some people in the south don't seem to understand it either.

It's kind of becoming a n oft repeated deliberate fiction, like Reagan's economic record. Or Japan's record on the abuse of women during the war.

You don't get to reinvent history to suit yourself. The civil war was about slavery and the confederate flag is both banner and standard of the South in that war.

You can't reinvent history, no. But you can change the meaning behind symbols.

 

[CrunchyFrog]

They were fighting for slavery. You dont have to forget them, but you dont have the celebrate them.

The German guy is cute though. So he is fine with people parading the Dixie flag, but why doesnt he parade the Swastika? Both are pretty vile symbols to most thinking people. And no, you cant decide the meaning of a symbol that has its own meaning inherant in it.

Eh, that's kind of exactly what the Nazis did with the Swastika

 

[CrocMother]

Allowing volunteer immigrants to serve in a war is much less awful than enslaving millions of people and killing, beating, and raping them for centuries.

1) they weren't allowing volunteers, they were taking them off the boats and forcing them to the front lines where death was almost certain. The casualties were that bad.

2) as if the north didn't have slaves for centuries?

The south was undeniably more awful, but let's not pretend this was "good vs evil".

 

[Bregor]

You can't reinvent history, no. But you can change the meaning behind symbols.

The Confederate battle flag, as a symbol, has been forever tainted by the sins of the cause it was associated with, and will never be free of that taint. The actions of the creators of it will always cast such a large shadow over history that no amount of desire to distance the flag from those actions will ever be convincing, except to those who choose to be willfully blind to the truth.

 

[Stinkles]

1) they weren't allowing volunteers, they were taking them off the boats and forcing them to the front lines where death was almost certain. The casualties were that bad.

2) as if the north didn't have slaves for centuries?

The south was undeniably more awful, but let's not pretend this was "good vs evil".

Do you have a citation for number 1? I have read a lot about this and outside of a few state centered pressgangs, I am unaware of any federally organized coercion of immigrants.

On the contrary, many volunteers, driven by grinding poverty and job competition, were immigrants.

 

[Phoenix]

.

Excellent post.

I'd also add that this attempt to legitimize the movement had the byproduct of carrying around some of the racial baggage that should have died back then as well. You don't have to look far beyond the end of slavery to the civil rights movement and all the killings and lynchings that pervaded in the South to know that the problem spread throughout the national psyche and exists to this day - clearly illustrated in the various portrayals of black people in nearly the same light as they were portrayed then.

The Confederate battle flag, as a symbol, has been forever tainted by the sins of the cause it was associated with, and will never be free of that taint. The actions of the creators of it will always cast such a large shadow over history that no amount of desire to distance the flag from those actions will ever be convincing, except to those who choose to be willfully blind to the truth.

Yep, pretty much how the swastika will always be tainted for similar reasons.

 

[Stinkles]

You can't reinvent history, no. But you can change the meaning behind symbols.

Do you think it would be palatable or appropriate to rebrand the swastika as a symbol of pride?

Now imagine the same scenario, but carried out exclusively by white Christians in a Jewish neighborhood. That's almost the exact scenario Southern African Americans endure currently, daily.

 

[Kaladin]

Do you think it would be palatable or appropriate to rebrand the swastika as a symbol of pride?

Now imagine the same scenario, but carried out exclusively by white Christians in a Jewish neighborhood. That's almost the exact scenario Southern African Americans endure currently, daily.

Maybe for a select few, but for the majority, it really isn't.

 

[Rebel Leader]

.....

Flags are there to represent things, they are the symbol of the group.

The swastika was the symbil of the Nazis. The confederate flag the symbol of the confederacy. Those symbols represent those movements. Those movements meant something. That meaning is part and parcel of those symbols.

You can pretend the flag means something else till the cows come home. But it's fundamentally about a group that wanted to dissolve the union over their desire to keep slaves. That's what they were fighting for. That's why they existed. That's what it means to most people. And that is what it will always mean.

I'm not even going to bother with the transgender stuff, it's a ridiculous point.

The swastika was used as a religious symbol long before the nazis. They just tilted it

 

[kehs]

I like how not honoring them means the same as forgetting.

 

[Stinkles]

Maybe for a select few, but for the majority, it really isn't.

States raise that flag. Cities do it all the time. Even schools. Millions of bumper stickers.

GTFO with "select few."

 

[Kaladin]

I think this is the best thing to take from the article:

As someone living in the south and volunteering as historical interpreter (not military reenactment, we do the civilian life around 1775) I met many people who do the interpreting and the reenacting. I never experience any kind of racism there.

I also met plenty of people in daily life who had rebel flags on the clothing, cars or as tattoo and who never showed any signs of racism (but a lot of local pride).

And then there are the racists. People who clearly judge you by the color of your skin, your ancestors and your country of origin. I seen them with and without rebel flags, with or without southern pride.

In the end you need to look at the individuals and judge them by their actions and not get distracted by people using the same symbols.

 

[teruterubozu]

Why are people so eager to celebrate the wrong side of history

ugh "wrong side of history" - as if history has its own conscious. It doesn't.

 

[Stinkles]

I think this is the best thing to take from the article:

That point completely ignores its external effect AND the actual history. Both of which are more important than some ignorant snowflake's ludicrous sense of entitlement and cognitive dissonance.

 

[Chichikov]

States raise that flag. Cities do it all the time. Even schools. Millions of bumper stickers.

GTFO with "select few."

Also, in places like South Carolina (where they raised the flag over the state capitol in 1961) and Georgia (where they changed their flag to include it in 1956) it was done in direct response and defiance to the civil rights movement.

 

[Kaladin]

That point completely ignores its external effect AND the actual history. Both of which are more important than some ignorant snowflake's ludicrous sense of entitlement and cognitive dissonance.

Nice. I'm done here.

 

[Stinkles]

Nice. I'm done here.

Don't let the door hit you on the way to the library.

 

[deadlast]

ugh "wrong side of history" - as if history has its own conscious. It doesn't.

There is a wrong side of history, it's called fictional history. Like Columbus was a hip cat that help those natives welcome the Europeans to the Americas.
Also, I really don't understand the reenactors. What's the point of reenacting the Civil War battles? Do they also reenact other historical events? Is what they are doing classified as LARPing? Can we refer to them as HLARPs?

 

[BeatResetsTheWorld]

ugh "wrong side of history" - as if history has its own conscious. It doesn't.

What are you even talking about? They were on the side that lost. That had their ideals regulated to nothing more than pages in books that future generations will read and shake their heads at in dismay. They're on the side whose very likelihood have no place in our modern era. They're on the "wrong side". Deal with it

 

[njean777]

That point completely ignores its external effect AND the actual history. Both of which are more important than some ignorant snowflake's ludicrous sense of entitlement and cognitive dissonance.

Ad-hominem attacks and the last quip make you look worse then him/her in this argument. Just ought I would let you know that nobody respects that sort of attack that you levied against him/her.

Living in the south I know from a fact that what he says is true. Most people who fly the rebel flag are not racist. They fly it for the only reason that the South had the will to not follow the federal government at the time. Now are there racists that fly the flag? Yes there are. The majority that fly in on their cars, or have a shirt with it are not though, especially the younger generation. It isn't seen as racist to the majority of people today that like to represent it (even though to educated people it is, and even to me).

 

[Stinkles]

Ad-hominem attacks and the last quip make you look worse then him/her in this argument. Just ought I would let you know that nobody respects that sort of attack that you levied against him/her.

I wasn't attacking him, I was attacking the idiots in the article from the OP, who are oblivious to the symbol's meaning. And I will keep attacking them. Because they're wrong. And if he wants to group himself with them, then he's welcome to bask in it, or make an argument that is better than, "We should just respect other people's ideas, even when they are dumb."


We should not respect dumb ideas, and where we can, we should try to correct falsehoods and misconceptions.

 

[njean777]

I wasn't attacking him, I was attacking the idiots in the article from the OP, who are oblivious to the symbol's meaning. And I will keep attacking them. Because they're wrong. And if he wants to group himself with them, then he's welcome to bask in it, or make an argument that is better than, "We should just respect other people's ideas, even when they are dumb."


We should not respect dumb ideas, and where we can, we should try to correct falsehoods and misconceptions.

You can attack them all you want, but it won't work, and you will just be seen as an asshole. Especially today as the majority of people who fly it have no interest in listening to somebody calling them ignorant or stupid for something they may not attribute to the symbol of the rebel flag. You tactic is flawed and needs to revised in order to get people to listen to you.

 

[BeatResetsTheWorld]

You can attack them all you want, but it won't work, and you will just be seen as an asshole. Especially today as the majority of people who fly it have no interest in listening to somebody calling them ignorant or stupid for something they may not attribute to the symbol of the rebel flag. You tactic is flawed and needs to revised in order to get people to listen to you.

But they're wrong. If someone attributed flying a flag with a swastika to the German economic recovery movement post WW1, they'd still be wrong and given shit for it

 

[Trouble]

The rebel flag is an overtly racist symbol, IMO, and those who fly it know it. They can claim it's not all they want, but it is and they fly it for that reason. I have no respect for anyone who flies the flag.

 

[Bregor]

Ad-hominem attacks and the last quip make you look worse then him/her in this argument. Just ought I would let you know that nobody respects that sort of attack that you levied against him/her.

Living in the south I know from a fact that what he says is true. Most people who fly the rebel flag are not racist. They fly it for the only reason that the South had the will to not follow the federal government at the time. Now are there racists that fly the flag? Yes there are. The majority that fly in on their cars, or have a shirt with it are not though, especially the younger generation. It isn't seen as racist to the majority of people today that like to represent it (even though to educated people it is, and even to me).

The flag sends a racist message. It doesn't matter whether their intentions are to do so or not, that is the result.

You object to the term ignorant, and while I personally would avoid using that term simply out of courtesy, it is accurate in this situation.

Those who fly the flag as something positive, as something to be proud of, are ignorant.

They are ignorant about the truth of what the flag stood for and what it's supporters defended.

They are ignorant of the offensive nature of the flag to many who see it.

They are ignorant of the message they are sending to others about themselves.

You may say they are not racist. But even if this is so, they are at the very least guilty of failing to inform themselves about the truths of this symbol, or consider the objections of those who those who are (rightly) offended. They are responsible for their own actions, and if they choose to act in this way while remaining ignorant of the facts and inconsiderate of others, then they are not acting much better than 'true' racists.

And by the way, if they identify with the Confederates because they object to the authority of the federal government, then they are ignorant again. Because the Confederate government was just as restrictive, or more so, than the Union one.

 

[njean777]

The flag sends a racist message. It doesn't matter whether their intentions are to do so or not, that is the result.

You object to the term ignorant, and while I personally would avoid using that term simply out of courtesy, it is accurate in this situation.

Those who fly the flag as something positive, as something to be proud of, are ignorant.

They are ignorant about the truth of what the flag stood for and what it's supporters defended.

They are ignorant of the offensive nature of the flag to many who see it.

They are ignorant of the message they are sending to others about themselves.

You may say they are not racist. But even if this is so, they are at the very least guilty of failing to inform themselves about the truths of this symbol, or consider the objections of those who those who are (rightly) offended. They are responsible for their own actions, and if they choose to act in this way while remaining ignorant of the facts and inconsiderate of others, then they are not acting much better than 'true' racists.

And by the way, if they identify with the Confederates because they object to the authority of the federal government, then they are ignorant again. Because the Confederate government was just as restrictive, or more so, than the Union one.

I know and agree with all of this, but people to do not take kindly to being called ignorant. I have made the mistake in the past and it just doesn't work. Many people to not know the meaning of the word ignorant and see it as you calling them stupid.

 

[Trouble]

I know and agree with all of this, but people to do not take kindly to being called ignorant. I have made the mistake in the past and it just doesn't work. Many people to not know the meaning of the word ignorant and see it as you calling them stupid.

So what? Don't call them out on blatant racism because they are too stupid to know the difference between ignorance and stupidity?

 

[Slayven]

I see the lies surrounding the War of Northern Aggression is still alive and well.

 

[Vicetrailia]

And by the way, if they identify with the Confederates because they object to the authority of the federal government, then they are ignorant again. Because the Confederate government was just as restrictive, or more so, than the Union one.

Interesting, how were they just as restrictive?

 

[GungHo]

The rebel flag is an overtly racist symbol, IMO, and those who fly it know it. They can claim it's not all they want, but it is and they fly it for that reason. I have no respect for anyone who flies the flag.

I say this as someone who knows several war re-enactors and who has seen the process for everything from WWII and the Civil War to the Battle of Hastings... you don't have to use the damn flag for people to figure out which side you're "pretending" to be. If they want to "live in the moment" in their glorified LARP, whatever, but don't give me some shit about "it's gotta be real" when you have a Bluetooth device flashing in your ear.

 

[Trouble]

I say this as someone who knows several war re-enactors and who has seen the process for everything from WWII and the Civil War to the Battle of Hastings... you don't have to use the damn flag for people to figure out which side you're "pretending" to be. If they want to "live in the moment" in their glorified LARP, whatever, but don't give me some shit about "it's gotta be real" when you have a Bluetooth device flashing in your ear.

I wasn't talking about reenactments, at least there would be a plausible reason for its use (or would there? not a history buff).

 

[GungHo]

I wasn't talking about reenactments, at least there would be a plausible reason for its use (or would there? not a history buff).

I know you weren't talking about re-enactments. I was saying that even for re-enactments, it's not a necessary condition.

 

[BeatResetsTheWorld]

I always love hearing about how Southern states hate big government.

That's rich, given that during that time, the South had the will to not abolish slavery. WOW SUCH AN ACCOMPLISHMENT.

(Also, nowdays, it's ironic as well because the southern states get the most money from the government.)

I love how they hate socialism, big government and Obamacare, but love welfare. And what's best is that many of the super hardcore conservative Southerners don't even understand the irony of it

 

[Stinkles]

I see the lies surrounding the War of Northern Aggression is still alive and well.

I chuckled.

 

[Link]

I love how they hate socialism, big government and Obamacare, but love welfare. And what's best is that many of the super hardcore conservative Southerners don't even understand the irony of it

Now, now, let's be fair here. They love welfare for white people. Otherwise, it's just lazy minorities collecting a check and buying steak and lobster while talking on their Obamaphones.

 

[BlackGoku03]

I live in the south so I can add to this a bit. The people who celebrate the rebel flag and use it as a symbol of their culture don't typically do it for racist reasons. It's a symbol of the south, and at most "rebel pride". That's typically all it is to them and they look at people who want to bring the slavery and racial angle to it as ignorant yankees or intellectuals who want to ruin their fun. Even if they do have a bit of a racist tendency to them, the flag doesn't signify that.

I get that people do find it offensive, but in most cases it is harmless and has been repurposed for todays use as a symbol of pride in being from the southern states of America.

I live in South Carolina. There was even a member of the KKK that lived on the same street as me (I made a thread about it I think). They still fly the flag at the capitol building in Columbia. So I get the same crap you do from people all over the place here. I see a lot of people who wear the shirt that says "If this flag offends you,you need a history lesson". This goes back to what Bregor was saying with revisionist history.

Just because you want it to stand for something else and have been brainwashed to think it's ok, doesn't mean it's true.

You can't choose and select what you want to represent when you rock that flag.

 

[Omegasquash]

This is a dumbed down statement compared to what I've read in the thread, but it seems stupid to me that you can show a sign that stood for slavery and claim that it's anything but that.

The war was about slavery, pure and simple. The flag is a sign of that. Put it down, please.

 

[Fenderputty]

Should we remember the war and our confederate brothers that died along with the union brothers? Yes. It was a bloody war that cost America dearly. I myself have members on both sides of the war searching back far enough on my mom's side.

Flying the confederate flag in pride this day in age isn't the above though. Pretending it's just the above is being incredibly naive. The state's rights angle is just a way to deflect guilt.

 

[zashga]

I get that people do find it offensive, but in most cases it is harmless and has been repurposed for todays use as a symbol of pride in being from the southern states of America.

Why do you think someone would choose a flag that excludes black people as a symbol of Southern identity? The implications are pretty clear: they're racists, diet or otherwise.

 

[Brakke]

Ad-hominem attacks and the last quip make you look worse then him/her in this argument. Just ought I would let you know that nobody respects that sort of attack that you levied against him/her.

It's only an ad hominem if I claim "your argument is bad because you are bad". If I claim "you are bad because your argument is bad", it's just an insult. Skinkles pushed back on a bad idea then followed it up with insult. And that proceeds fine, because the label "ignorant" fits on someone who has made an ignorant claim.

Whether or not dismissing/insulting/disparaging people for being wrong is an effective method of convincing them to instead by right is a separate discussion.

 

[Fenderputty]

Can I just say that I don't really give a shit if some is genuine with the state's right angle.

It's so insensitive to current social norms that it shows a complete lack of empathy to entire set of people.

 

[SummitAve]

There's a lot more nuance to the Civil War than what a flag can symbolize. Everybody fought for their own reasons, and almost nobody even owned slaves. People were poor, and suits had arbitrary boundries tearing families and friends apart.

 

[SigmasonicX]

There's a lot more nuance to the Civil War than what a flag can symbolize. Everybody fought for their own reasons, and almost nobody even owned slaves. People were poor, and suits had arbitrary boundries tearing families and friends apart.

Just because few actually owned slaves doesn't mean the poor didn't fight for that right. Tons of poor and middle class people today support views that disproportionately favor the super rich, like being against estate taxes, due to the belief in the American Dream and that they might one day be rich enough to benefit from it. Similarly, the poor back then could have supported slavery under the belief that they may be rich enough to get slaves some day. Besides, as brought up before, slavery made it so that no matter how badly your life was going, if you were white, then there were still people below you on the social totem pole.