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Cenk Uygur (The Young Turks) interviews Sam Harris for 3 hours (Religion & Islam)

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That's a much more reasonable position to take than the absolute nonsense that was "Islam is the only religion that acts like a Mafia"
Bill Maher is a comedian, he draws analogies for comedic effect. The analogy here is that you can't leave the Mafia or they else they kill you to the fact that many (not all or even most) Muslims believe that the death penalty is appropriate for Apostates.

and "Islam is a motherlode of bad ideas" illogical bullshit that was being tossed around on Maher. But it's also such a weak position that it might as well not be a position at all.
It is an opinion, not illogical bullshit. Obviously I think Islam is filled with bad ideas or I might practice it. But various things like hostility toward homosexuals, treatment of women, taking sex slaves, charging tax to people of other religions, death to apostates, etc. You may not feel those ideas are part of the religion but many Muslims apparently do. And I think they are bad ideas. 'motherlode of bad ideas' was obviously a bit inflammatory for effect on TV and Sam admitted in a later blog post that it could be viewed as offensive.
 
You or Harris really don't get to decide what is 'true Islam' and what isn't. And your aversion to making specific criticisms of some versions of Islam in favor of absurdly simple minded broad attacks on the whole of the faith is really mind blowing.

True islam? True Islam is the words on the page, my friend. Are you going to tell me the beginnings of Islam were peaceful? Sorry, by most accounts Muhammed was not some easy going fella. He murdered in mass and that's why there's so much violence in his teachings.

Seriously, why be delusional?


Not only that, but are we really going to blame everything on Islam and not:

access to education
tyrants and dictators in the 20th and 21st century
war
poverty

and so on. Correlation doesn't imply causation after all.

There's two things about this:

1. It's not necessarily true that providing those things would get rid of radical Islam if a lot of the people believe in the literal word of it's teachings.

and

2. This is precisely why religion is bad. It takes advantage of the less fortunate. It is highly effective.
 

SystemBug

Member
True islam? True Islam is the words on the page, my friend. Are you going to tell me the beginnings of Islam were peaceful? Sorry, by most accounts Muhammed was not some easy going fella. He murdered in mass and that's why there's so much violence in his teachings.

Seriously, why be delusional?

He didn't go to war for lol killing.

He didn't go to war for lol oil either
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
When Bill Maher and Sam Harris say that liberals don't call out the bad things muslims have done, what is he referring to exactly?
 

SystemBug

Member
He went to war for what then? Considering he politicized his religion....it's pretty obvious. The guy killed his critics, beheaded them. i mean, really lol.
From what I know, Islam and Muslims were under oppression, and were generally treated poorly.

So they fought back
 
From what I know, Islam and Muslims were under oppression, and were generally treated poorly.

So they fought back

there is no use arguing this historical point because its going to fall on deaf ears. I gave the contexual verses to Son of Sam before and his retort was well ISIS is true islam yours is fake Islam and gave falsified misleading statements as facts. I realise the only way to deal with people who dont want to listen is reduce the discussion to a point that there is no discussion
 

Azih

Member
True islam? True Islam is the words on the page, my friend. Are you going to tell me the beginnings of Islam were peaceful?

Well yeah. Muhammad just preached his new faith and was prosecuted for it and so he fled the city of his birth. That was the beginning of Islam.

It's also completely irrelevant other than showing how little you have read about the religion. Whatever the origin of the faith may have been has nothing to do with how dumb it is to just up and bash the entirety of a religion that comprises more than a billion people. This is a very weird thread. Most people are backing away from the absurd generalization of the Maher segment but you seem to be doubling down on the stupid.
 
From what I know, Islam and Muslims were under oppression, and were generally treated poorly.

So they fought back

You think it was that simple huh? It's known Muhammed denounced his own tribe, and sought out to convert everyone and unify the region under his one god. He was merciless in doing so.

This is why his book tells followers to wax all nonbelievers.
 
His point wasn't that it isn't done in Islamic countries, but that it's a part of African culture in those countries. That's what I think he was trying to express when he brought up the Christian countries.
Yeah, that is what I believed at first . . . but then he said "No where else in the Muslim world - Muslim majority nations is this an issue"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzusSqcotDw#t=120

. . . giving the impression that it is not an issue at all in the Muslim world. And that is just not true . . . Egypt, Yemen, Indonesia, Iraq, UAE, India, and other places besides Central Africa have this issue.

Now it is more of a cultural issue not a religious one. But Reza seemed to bend the truth that he did not want to admit.

Maher brought that up in the discussion and he is definitely not as educated as Harris.
 
Well yeah. Muhammad just preached his new faith and was prosecuted for it and so he fled the city of his birth. That was the beginning of Islam.

It's also completely irrelevant other than showing how little you have read about the religion. Whatever the origin of the faith may have been has nothing to do with how dumb it is to just up and bash the entirety of a religion that comprises more than a billion people. This is a very weird thread. Most people are backing away from the absurd generalization of the Maher segment but you seem to be doubling down on the stupid.

Doubling down on what stupid? No ones backing down from the Maher segment because Maher and Sam were correct. Maybe you couldn't understand them over Affleck yelling.

You're the one again missing the point and "doubling down on the stupid" because you think this is an attack on all those people, it's not. It's attack on the doctrine of islam itself, and what radical islam a long with many moderates prescribe to. Why is this hard for you to understand?

And the beginning of the faith does matter, it matters what the founder of that faith believed in and what he wanted his followers to do. It's in the BOOK, it's in WRITING.
 
You think it was that simple huh? It's known Muhammed denounced his own tribe, and sought out to convert everyone and unify the region under his one god. He was merciless in doing so.

This is why his book tells followers to wax all nonbelievers.

You have really no clue what you're talking about, do you. It's ok.
 
True islam? True Islam is the words on the page, my friend.

Do you think that today's Christians are not true Christians because of the dearth of literalism? Moderates need to define true Islam, and they will need to similarly spurn literal interpretations of many ideas to do so.

You are missing a level of nuance by proclaiming what interpretations count as true Islam versus countering apologetic arguments that those interpretations are not reasonable or supported by the texts.
 

Chairman Yang

if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
I mean, let's assume that Islam is the main source of the majority of problems in the Middle East. But how would something like that even be addressed? You can't force a mass deconversion of people or divorce a religion from many cultures abruptly; you'll only end up antagonizing people and push them further away from what you wanted. (Suggestions of committing genocide are even more laughable.) And combating fundamentalism without addressing the foundation of inequality, poverty, and political instability upon which it is built will only address a symptom of the issue. Any other ideology or religion could be propped up to serve the same purpose. Any beliefway could be twisted to serve an ideal. There are several underlying factors that are conducive to the problems we would like to see solved, but the approach some are taking is unhelpful at best. And usually, the Muslims that are not affected by such factors around the world are moderates or very strongly against extremism, fundamentalism, so I'm not convinced that it's a Muslim issue (or that characterizing it as such makes it easier to tackle). Otherwise, we would have never seen the historical, progressive changes in the Christian world if the problem was so simplifiable.
I don't know if Islam is the main source of problems in the ME. I'm pretty sure it's a major source. So, assuming that's correct, how can it be addressed? Frankly, I don't know. It'll be up to smarter and more dedicated people than me to come up with solutions. But it's clear to me that it'll be much easier to come to a solution if more people can accept that Islam can be a contributing factor to people believing and doing bad things.

As for your other points, I'll try to briefly address some of them in the order you brought them up:

* In fact, many Muslim-majority countries have successfully and abruptly reduced the influence of Islam and made their populations more liberal as a result. All in the 20th century, too. Turkey, Indonesia, Albania, and the ex-Soviet Central Asian countries are the obvious examples. The governments of these countries all suppressed Islam, forcibly and sometimes brutally. Note that I'm not suggesting this as a solution; I'm pointing it out because it's clear that Islamism can be effectively reduced and Muslims can be made less devout. Is there a liberal way to do this? I'm convinced there is, although I don't yet know what it is.

* Inequality, poverty, and political instability did not seem to stop the success of the de-Islamisation campaigns I mentioned above. I've actually seen no evidence (or conflicting evidence) that inequality/poverty and radical Islamism are even correlated. Political instability seems to be, but Islam may lead to or maintain political instability in the first place.

* I'm not convinced that any ideology could be propped up to serve the same purposes in the same ways as Islam. I mean, that's essentially saying that all ideologies are devoid of content, and they're mere cosmetic appearances covering a core that can be twisted to any purpose equally effectively. Boiled down further, it's saying that people's ideology or beliefs have absolutely no effect on their actions. It's an absurd idea.
 
When Bill Maher and Sam Harris say that liberals don't call out the bad things muslims have done, what is he referring to exactly?

Beheadings, suicide bombings, suppression of women, killing apostates, etc
Yes and no . . . Those things are things that some Muslims do but generally not in the west.

But when talking about Muslims that live in west, those horrible things are generally not an issue (except the suppression of women to a degree). But things like getting all mad over a cartoon of the prophet, intolerance of homosexuals, and other things can still linger.
 
Never said it was. Just pointing out that what's being said in this thread is far far far different from the crap spewed on the Maher segment that started this thing.



Bad ideas in Islam or bad ideas in some interpretations of Islam? Because I have no issues at all with the second. But the first is straight up simpliistic overly generalized nonsense and a very very different statement to make than the one Chairman Yang made.
Why exactly is the first statement a bad one? An interpretation of the philosophy is equivalent to that philosophy unless you can show that it is impossible, based on the rules of that philosophy, to come to that interpretation.

BTW, you can't.
 
You have really no clue what you're talking about, do you. It's ok.

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone"

Is this incorrect? if it is please correct it.

Do you think that today's Christians are not true Christians because of the dearth of literalism? Moderates need to define true Islam, and they will need to similarly spurn literal interpretations of many ideas to do so.

You are missing a level of nuance by proclaiming what interpretations count as true Islam versus countering apologetic arguments that those interpretations are not reasonable or supported by the texts.

Todays Christians are reformed Christians. But if you believe your book is the literal interpretation of gods words than following the words on the page literally is the most authentic form of the religion. Yes, that's how i view it. But i'm not saying you should do this, i rather you not be a fundamentalist.
 

Chairman Yang

if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
That's a much more reasonable position to take than the absolute nonsense that was "Islam is the only religion that acts like a Mafia" and "Islam is a motherlode of bad ideas" illogical bullshit that was being tossed around on Maher. But it's also such a weak position that it might as well not be a position at all.
Well, I'm glad you think the position is uncontroversial and weak, but many, many people disagree with you. Many, maybe most people I've discussed this with on NeoGAF won't accept that Islam can be an issue or exacerbating factor at all. If you do, then I'm glad.

I think the first statement is clearly bunk; lots of religions have acted like Mafias. The second statement seems completely uncontroversial to me. Harris thinks Islam has lots and lots of bad ideas. Most of the world does, else they'd follow Islam.
 
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone"

Is this incorrect? if it is please correct it.
Have you perhaps tried looking at the context of the verse? The context is described in what's called Tafseer. You can google on that for now. Also, quoting the preceding verse could have helped...
 

SystemBug

Member
there is no use arguing this historical point because its going to fall on deaf ears. I gave the contexual verses to Son of Sam before and his retort was well ISIS is true islam yours is fake islam

thanks for letting me know.

Sure Islam has issues, but lets not forget how many millions if not billions of people got fucked by British Imperialism which effects are still felt today.

That Imperialism that a lot of us benefit from sure, but guess what, it came at the expense of other people. Like fuck, a solider gets shot and Canada goes crazy. That shit happens on the daily in other countries. Look how good we have it here, and look how much shit other people have to deal with. And when some dude sitting in North America points fingers at a group of people who often have less than 10% of what they have, whether it be the upbringing, in the form of education, or exposure - which are two huge things that the people over there don't have; I get pissed.

Visit these places, see how people live, and then get a better worldview - not a western world view, but an actual world view. Go there, and talk to people. They are human beings, good human beings.

I am Atheist, but people don't see me as an atheist because my skin is brown. I get randomly checked at airports. I dread traveling because I don't want to go through that. It's hard for me to visit family in the US or back in Pakistan because I always have to deal with some airport bullshit.

90% of victims of terrorists are people who look like me, and speak the same language I do.
 
Go through the first 2 hours.

Interesting conversation. Sort of surprised by Sam's failure to properly understand and appreciate the socio-economics, poverty and lack of education fueling this shit. Look throughout the history of the world and you see a 1:1 relationship between extreme behavior and lack. Usually socio-economic lack and the impressionability of people living under poor conditions. Take American terrorism, for example, in the form of the Ku Klux Klan. That was a movement fueled by poverty and anger. Christianity was simply the vessel they used to excuse their behavior.

For a genuinely intelligent man to fail understand and internalize that aspect bothers me greatly. Other than that, all made interesting points.
 

Oppo

Member
Have you perhaps tried looking at the context of the verse? The context is described in what's called Tafseer. You can google on that for now.

why should he need context. it was quite clear.

or... are you doubting my personal interpretation of the faith
 
Go through the first 2 hours.

Interesting conversation. Sort of surprised by Sam's failure to properly understand and appreciate the socio-economics, poverty and lack of education fueling this shit. For a genuinely intelligent man to fail understand and internalize that aspect bothers me greatly. Other than that, all made interesting points.
He understands it. And he understands how doctrines like this can be a problem in the areas where those factors are at play.

It's easier to begin a religion with the weak but it can only grow after it takes over the establishment.
 
why should he need context. it was quite clear.

or... are you doubting my personal interpretation of the faith


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excuse me did I just break your concentration :p

what were you saying about clarity and context?

and I was just pondering over verse 2:18
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
Did you not see Affleck? A lot of the MSN television hosts, writers, journalists that are liberals. There's a lot.

What? He wasn't defending that stuff. He was defending muslims in general from blanket generalizations like that.
 
why should he need context. it was quite clear.

or... are you doubting my personal interpretation of the faith

Because Quran was revealed over a period of 23 years directly in response to events surrounding Prophet Muhammad. It's not a self contained story book. It's not in chronological order starting from Year 1.
 
I've watched an hour plus and Cenk comes off pretty bad IMHO. He keeps trying to over generalize Sam ' s statements. When Cenk actually listens close, he agrees. And Cenk doesn't understand probability mathematics.

I think he understood perfectly; from an atheists point of view the probability of Jesus ruturning to a specific place on Earth is exactly the same as him returning at all, nill.

I had the video on for the full three plus hours and despite listening fairly intently (was also formulating some /RE's/i), I missed Harris's explanation on why he believed Islam was inherently more dangerous compared to Christianity, despite the comparable level of violence in the Koran and Bible (based on TYT past videos).

I think Cenk is right, the vast majority of Muslims, who are not caught up in an extraordinary situation (e.g. Palestinians) are just concerned with everyday issues, such as putting food on the table.
 
I got an hour and some change through and Cenk didn't come off well.

A lot of special pleading and felt denial.

I didn't feel like there was anything of much substance.
 

Oppo

Member
Because Quran was revealed over a period of 23 years directly in response to events surrounding Prophet Muhammad. It's not a self contained story book. It's not in chronological order starting from Year 1.

so you recommend a 10 volume exegesis? c'mon now.
 
Daniel B·;135678304 said:
I think he understood perfectly; from an atheists point of view the probability of Jesus ruturning to a specific place on Earth is exactly the same as him returning at all, nill.
They are both atheists but one is a little smarter than the other and got the math right.


Daniel B·;135678304 said:
I had the video on for the full three plus hours and despite listening fairly intently (was also formulating some /RE's/i), I missed Harris's explanation on why he believed Islam was inherently more dangerous compared to Christianity, despite the comparable level of violence in the Koran and Bible (based on TYT past videos).
Then you missed a lot of it.

Sam mentioned the doctrine of Jihad. And, yes, many people view this as an internal struggle . . . many others (like ISIS & their fans) take it quite literally.

Re: Christianity . . . there is a lot of barbarism in the Bible but it is mostly in the old testament and there is the Christian rationalization about "How through Jesus's grace, all the old testament teachings are not really relevant and can be ignore . . . just follow the stuff Jesus says".

Another one that Sam did not bring up and that I view as troublesome is that Christians just view the Bible as "inspired by god" but not the literal word of god. This allows them to do a lot of pick & choosing. Whereas general Islamic theology is that the Quran is the literal word of god as brought to us by the prophet. If you believe that the Quran is the literal perfect word of god . . . it really doesn't give you much wiggle room to pick & choose.


Daniel B·;135678304 said:
I think Cenk is right, the vast majority of Muslims, who are not caught up in an extraordinary situation (e.g. Palestinians) are just concerned with everyday issues, such as putting food on the table.
And I don't think Sam would disagree with that.
 

Heshinsi

"playing" dumb? unpossible
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone"

Is this incorrect? if it is please correct it.



Todays Christians are reformed Christians. But if you believe your book is the literal interpretation of gods words than following the words on the page literally is the most authentic form of the religion. Yes, that's how i view it. But i'm not saying you should do this, i rather you not be a fundamentalist.

You do know that the verse you quoted was in reference to a war the Meccans started right? Up until that point Muslims were strictly forbidden to fight back against Meccan oppression (do you even know what the Meccans did to early Muslims?), and finally after moving to Medina they were given permission to defend themselves. Of course you missed the verse after where Muslims are told to make peace if the Meccans request peace. I'm not even Muslim and I know this stuff. Every single verse in the Qur'an was revealed to address a particular situation that occurred at that time. What kinda verse were you expecting from a situation where Meccan warriors come marching down to Madinah to destroy it? "Hey guys, so the Meccans are coming. No worries or anything. Just stay in your homes and wait for death. See y'all in heaven. XOXO"
 
You do know that the verse you quoted was in reference to a war the Meccans started right? Up until that point Muslims were strictly forbidden to fight back against Meccan oppression (do you even know what the Meccans did to early Muslims?), and finally after moving to Medina they were given permission to defend themselves. Of course you missed the verse after where Muslims are told to make peace if the Meccans request peace. I'm not even Muslim and I know this stuff. Every single verse in the Qur'an was revealed to address a particular situation that occurred at that time. What kinda verse were you expecting from a situation where Meccan warriors come marching down to Madinah to destroy it?

He doesn't know anything about Islamic history. Just let it be.
 
You do know that the verse you quoted was in reference to a war the Meccans started right? Up until that point Muslims were strictly forbidden to fight back against Meccan oppression (do you even know what the Meccans did to early Muslims?), and finally after moving to Medina they were given permission to defend themselves. Of course you missed the verse after where Muslims are told to make peace if the Meccans request peace. I'm not even Muslim and I know this stuff. Every single verse in the Qur'an was revealed to address a particular situation that occurred at that time. What kinda verse were you expecting from a situation where Meccan warriors come marching down to Madinah to destroy it?

some people were expecting "let yourself and your religion die for the sake of your religion" :p
 
You do know that the verse you quoted was in reference to a war the Meccans started right? Up until that point Muslims were strictly forbidden to fight back against Meccan oppression (do you even know what the Meccans did to early Muslims?), and finally after moving to Medina they were given permission to defend themselves. Of course you missed the verse after where Muslims are told to make peace if the Meccans request peace. I'm not even Muslim and I know this stuff. Every single verse in the Qur'an was revealed to address a particular situation that occurred at that time. What kinda verse were you expecting from a situation where Meccan warriors come marching down to Madinah to destroy it? "Hey guys, so the Meccans are coming. No worries or anything. Just stay in your homes and wait for death. See y'all in heaven. XOXO"

Is this why they ended up driving the Meccans out of their own city and burning all their pagan gods? Is this why at the end of that verse is to wipe out their enemies religion until their religion is the only one? Ok.

Ah the classic.

This is a very important question. If you believe this is the word of god then you should be taken every verse literally, but you don't. This should be a big deal. Funny that it's made into some type of joke. I find that kinda crazy.

some people were expecting "let yourself and your religion die for the sake of your religion" :p

I know, weird right? Who would ever.... I wonder what those passive religions would say to that. You're a racist to the pacifists ;)
 
This is a very important question. If you believe this is the word of god then you should be taken every verse literally, but you don't. This should be a big deal. Funny that it's made into some type of joke. I find that kinda crazy.
How is what I believe a very important question to the discussion at hand.
Is this why they ended up driving the Meccans out of their own city and burning all their pagan gods? Is this why at the end of that verse is to wipe out their enemies religion until their religion is the only one? Ok.
Clearly, you have no clue what you're talking about. But it's ok.
 

Heshinsi

"playing" dumb? unpossible
Is this why they ended up driving the Meccas out of their own city and burning all their pagan gods? Is this why at the end of that verse is to wipe out their enemies religion until their religion is the only one? Ok.



This is a very important question. If you believe this is the word of god then you should be taken every verse literally, but you don't. This should be a big deal. Funny that it's made into a joke. I find that kinda crazy.

Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about. I'm Egyptian, you know who got rid of our pagan gods and hieroglyphics? Christians. So displacing foreign religions didn't start with Islam, nor did it end with it.
 
Is this why they ended up driving the Meccans out of their own city and burning all their pagan gods? Is this why at the end of that verse is to wipe out their enemies religion until their religion is the only one? Ok.



This is a very important question. If you believe this is the word of god then you should be taken every verse literally, but you don't. This should be a big deal. Funny that it's made into some type of joke. I find that kinda crazy.



I know, weird right? Who would ever.... I wonder what those passive religions would say to that. You're a racist to the pacifists ;)

Muhammad actually conquered Mecca and then forgave everyone who had brutally persecuted the Muslims in the years prior. The same people who caused his wife and uncle to die and tried to kill him on numerous occasions.
 

Duji

Member
You do know that the verse you quoted was in reference to a war the Meccans started right? Up until that point Muslims were strictly forbidden to fight back against Meccan oppression (do you even know what the Meccans did to early Muslims?), and finally after moving to Medina they were given permission to defend themselves. Of course you missed the verse after where Muslims are told to make peace if the Meccans request peace. I'm not even Muslim and I know this stuff. Every single verse in the Qur'an was revealed to address a particular situation that occurred at that time. What kinda verse were you expecting from a situation where Meccan warriors come marching down to Madinah to destroy it? "Hey guys, so the Meccans are coming. No worries or anything. Just stay in your homes and wait for death. See y'all in heaven. XOXO"

It can get really confusing when one minute Muslims say the Quran is a straight up instruction manual on how to live your life given by the creator of the universe meant for all times and places and then the next minute tell us it's a book containing the historical quabbles of 7th century Arabs. Non-Muslims will lose the argument every time if they decide to go into the Muslims' turf and play this game. To me it just proves how silly the whole thing is. Arguing about how to interpret something that is inherently broken and incoherent like the Quran is a complete waste of time. Don't bother, Son of Sam.
 
Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about. I'm Egyptian, you know who got rid of our pagan gods and hieroglyphics? Christians. So displacing foreign religions didn't start with Islam, nor did it end with it.
Who said it did? Nice scapegoating though. Another problem Sam Harris goes through all the time "but christianity did it to!" No one is defending Christianity here. There's certain mechanisms inherit in all religions. Religion starts with the weak, grows once it takes over the establishment. It has to do that to survive.

Muhammad actually conquered Mecca and then forgave everyone who had brutally persecuted the Muslims in the years prior. The same people who caused his wife and uncle to die and tried to kill him on numerous occasions.
Was this before or after he enforced Islam on the entire region?

Clearly, you have no clue what you're talking about. But it's ok.

Rusty, it's right there in the language.
 
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