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Indie Game Development Discussion Thread | Of Being Professionally Poor

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Jobbs

Banned
And in one word, M for Mature! Ha!

I make no deliberate attempts to be edgy, honestly, as an indie I never really even think about rating. I have kind of a dark sci fi themed game and I write the characters in a way that sounds plausible.

"They SCREWED with the wrong people!" wasn't plausible!
 

Ashodin

Member
I make no deliberate attempts to be edgy, honestly, as an indie I never really even think about rating. I have kind of a dark sci fi themed game and I write the characters in a way that sounds plausible.

"They SCREWED with the wrong people!" wasn't plausible!

Haha I get it. It's like Alien or something. :)
 

bkw

Member
Have any of you gone through the process of animating vector art (Illustrator) for Unity?

My team is using Unity 4.5 and we basically can't use plugins/extensions (weird educational reasons). So, my current method is sprite sheets: by hand, I'm arranging my vector art into a grid formation in Illustrator, hand-editing each "frame" of the grid, then exporting the image as a sprite sheet into Unity.

I really wish I could just move anchor points around, on a timeline. Please oh please tell me the easy solution I'm missing
Does it have to be illustrator? Flash might be better.
 

desu

Member
"They SCREWED with the wrong people!" wasn't plausible!

XS5LK.gif


Anyway the boss fight? looks super awesome. Really excited to get my hands on the beta.
 

mabec

Member
XS5LK.gif


Anyway the boss fight? looks super awesome. Really excited to get my hands on the beta.

I dont wanna say to much, but this "Beta" have become better by each day. That "Boss" you refer to is DAN.GER.OUS. (thats like 3 different nationalities)
 

kingPenguin

Neo Member
Recorded a quick match against the AI yesterday. It's actually doing pretty well. Nowhere near as fun as playing against an other human being, but it's serviceable.

The colors in the video are a bit wonky, and I really need to change that goal sound effect with something less out of place. Can you guess which team was controlled by the AI? ;)



It's getting pretty close to being done (music is still a big thing), so I have to start thinking about how I'm gonna "market" this thing. I'm terrible at that stuff. Any tips?
 

cbox

Member
Recorded a quick match against the AI yesterday. It's actually doing pretty well. Nowhere near as fun as playing against an other human being, but it's serviceable.

The colors in the video are a bit wonky, and I really need to change that goal sound effect with something less out of place. Can you guess which team was controlled by the AI? ;)



It's getting pretty close to being done (music is still a big thing), so I have to start thinking about how I'm gonna "market" this thing. I'm terrible at that stuff. Any tips?

I love this! Great work, the animations look great and everything seems to work nicely together. I wish I could help more with marketing advice as I need some myself, but I've been tweeting and commenting on Reddit so far. It's gotten me pretty far, though there's always more to be done. Tomorrow is Screenshot Saturday, and today Feedback Friday, you could start there! http://reddit.com/r/gamedev
 

_machine

Member
Oh wow that's friggin awesome; little things like that add so much to the world and immersion for me and I love it!

It's just weird how sometimes the most rewarding days of gamedev are the ones where you don't get anything concrete done; I just mostly had meetings and talked with some old friends, but still felt really accomplished. Maybe that the others just finished putting together a 60fps gameplay footage, which we'll be releasing this weekend.
 
You folks with PS4's - anyone want to do a GAF Indie Dev created LBP3 level? Was tossing the idea about for those of us who will be getting it this holiday season. We can put our collective minds together and create something fun.

Just a thought.
 

Rubikant

Member
So we got our game (Volgarr the Viking) finally ported to our first console - XBox One (mostly because they gave us dev kits for free), and to our surprise they selected us to be the Games with Gold game for November. And now that people are playing it, I've noticed something interesting - we are getting a LOT more "hate" posts than we did with the original Steam release (getting praise too of course, but the ratio of hate to praise is much stronger in the hate direction this time).

I've been pondering why this is, and this is some possible reasons I've come up with so far:

1) Perceived value from price point. One of the important yet counter-intuitive lessons I learned about marketing and economics, is that selling your product for cheaper does NOT always mean you will sell more copies. Research has shown that having too low a price point can actually reduce number of sales, as well as of course making you less money per sale.

The reason? Again, perceived value of the product. Price it too cheap, and you miss a demographic that automatically considers it not worth their time as it must be a crappy product. That's why sales and coupons are so effective - you keep the perceived value high because of the base price, yet allow people that aren't willing to pay that much an opportunity to buy the game and feel they are getting a good deal for just a little more effort on their part (getting the coupon, waiting for the sale, etc). Surprisingly many people won't bother with a sale or coupon, because its not worth the effort to them to save a few bucks. In this way you hit multiple "price points" at once and keep your perceived value decently high.

Giving a game away for free at its introduction to a new market makes its perceived value automatically pretty low, so people are going to look for justifications for why the product is "bad enough" that it would be given away for nothing.

2) Knowing what you are buying. Most people will do a minimal amount of checking at least to see if a game is something that would interest them before they purchase it. Thus they know what to expect. When its free, however, a large number of people are going to play the game with no idea what they are getting. We were careful in all of Volgarr's marketing to let people know what kind of game they were getting. Its a very tough, but fair, old-school game design. Not just old-school nostalgic aesthetics as you often see, but old-school design with things like fixed trajectory jumps and a delay on your attack swing and very infrequent checkpoints. Now that its free though, people are playing it without having any idea what kind of game it is and likely would never have bought it, thus an increase in negative reaction from all the people the game was clearly not meant to appeal to.

3) Buyer's bias. When you pay money for something, you tend to want to justify the purchase for yourself. You will put extra effort into finding things you like about your purchase, and try to discount the things you don't like, so you can feel you made the right decision - especially if it can't be easily returned. This is what leads to fanboyism and the "console wars" - people trying to justify their purchase decision by claiming the product they bought is better and the competitive product is worse. Again with the game being free, there's no reason to try to justify the purchase to yourself, so you aren't looking for what you enjoy from it, and won't spend as long learning what makes the game special. Human nature takes over and you end up bothered by every little thing you perceive as wrong with the game (humans naturally have negative emotions stick in their memory more than positive ones) and decide its terrible with little time put into it.

4) Audience (nothing to do with it being free after all?). XBox One is still fairly new and mostly bought by early adopters while everyone else waits to see how the XB1 vs PS4 debate pans out, and it hasn't featured a whole ton of retro indie games thus far. It is of course being advertised as bleeding-edge technology designed for new high-demand AAA titles that its predecessor couldn't handle. Thus the people that are likely to own one are mostly going to be looking for new, high end experiences they couldn't get on the 360, and aren't likely to really dig an old-school style game that looks like it could run on an SNES let alone a 360. Contrast with Steam, which has become one of the primary sources for indie games in the last several years and has a large audience of indie and old-school-loving gamers that don't feel the platform really has anything to prove. Thus the XB1 audience is quite a bit more likely to hate on a game like this compared to the Steam audience, even if it is (sorta) free.

----

Anyone have any alternate theories?

Fortunately, the negativity isn't really bothering me. I'm pretty thick-skinned anyway, and I intentionally targeted a very niche audience and ignored suggestions to change the game to appeal a broader audience whenever it would be at the expense of the enjoyment from my primary target demographic. I actually expected more of this kind of thing than we got back at the Steam release. In fact, because it IS essentially free I find many of the hate responses to just be amusing more than anything, since this time around I don't have to feel guilty about taking a customers money when they didn't like the game (if it were up to me I'd issue a refund to anyone who didn't like the game, no questions asked, but its more up to the distributors).

Therefore I'm not posting this looking for any kind of sympathy, I'm really just interested in what would cause the discrepancy as a thought experiment, and also figured some of you others considering a program like this and reading this post might be better prepared for what kind of public reaction you might get.
 

Jobbs

Banned
Anyone have any alternate theories?

No, you pretty much got it. It's more of a niche game, it's playing to a certain hardcore/old school base. Open it up to every bro with a One and you'll get a lot of people who don't understand it.

I'll probably face the same problem. I'm sort of expecting a lot of "I don't know where to go" and "this is too hard" feedback when my beta keys go out. And if I got hooked up with MS or Sony and they gave the game away for free like with you, it'd be the same feedback but with "sucks." at the end of it. "This is too hard. Sucks." "I don't know where to go. Sucks." :)
 

Blizzard

Banned
So we got our game (Volgarr the Viking) finally ported to our first console - XBox One (mostly because they gave us dev kits for free), and to our surprise they selected us to be the Games with Gold game for November. And now that people are playing it, I've noticed something interesting - we are getting a LOT more "hate" posts than we did with the original Steam release (getting praise too of course, but the ratio of hate to praise is much stronger in the hate direction this time).

I've been pondering why this is, and this is some possible reasons I've come up with so far:
This seems pretty well thought-out to me, thanks for posting it.

It's especially interesting how you mention that a cheaper price point can actually reduce sales. I personally hardly EVER even try free games on Steam, perhaps because of the same sort of thing -- I would rather play something that feels like a legitimate product, than something where I am expecting microtransactions to show up, or the quality to be poor.
 

Rubikant

Member
This seems pretty well thought-out to me, thanks for posting it.

It's especially interesting how you mention that a cheaper price point can actually reduce sales. I personally hardly EVER even try free games on Steam, perhaps because of the same sort of thing -- I would rather play something that feels like a legitimate product, than something where I am expecting microtransactions to show up, or the quality to be poor.

Yeah, one thing I like to tell other indie devs that ask me about it, is to not undersell themselves. Start at a decent, fair price - you can always put it on sale or lower the price later, but you can't really raise the price easily without raising a ruckus. Starting at a decently high price adds to the impression that this is a quality product, worthy of your attention, and not some throw-away game looking to make a quick buck. Of course you don't want to go too far the other way either. Pricing correctly is challenging!
 

Jobbs

Banned
Yeah, one thing I like to tell other indie devs that ask me about it, is to not undersell themselves. Start at a decent, fair price - you can always put it on sale or lower the price later, but you can't really raise the price easily without raising a ruckus. Starting at a decently high price adds to the impression that this is a quality product, worthy of your attention, and not some throw-away game looking to make a quick buck. Of course you don't want to go too far the other way either. Pricing correctly is challenging!

This has actually been a topic of much discussion for me and those around me. It sounds like a strong argument to not devalue your product by having it go super cheap all the time -- keep a consistent price.

But, then, you hear about how a lot of indies make small fortunes, or at least the majority of their sales, during those crazy sales where they're marked down 75%.

Where's the middle ground?
 

Rubikant

Member
This has actually been a topic of much discussion for me and those around me. It sounds like a strong argument to not devalue your product by having it go super cheap all the time -- keep a consistent price.

But, then, you hear about how a lot of indies make small fortunes, or at least the majority of their sales, during those crazy sales where they're marked down 75%.

Where's the middle ground?

I didn't have much control over sales on Volgarr, since ASG published it on Steam so it was more their call. I personally think they put it on sale too often and increased how much it was on sale each time too rapidly, but I'm not the expert.

My personal belief is the best bet is to do crazy sales at some point but just not very often, so that when you do do one its a big deal. And don't start with 75% off sales, do smaller ones first. Basically, wait until your standard sales have hit a slump, then do a big sale to draw attention, then wait again. Yes, you'll get more money during the sales, that's true, but if you do it all the time then you risk too many people refusing to buy it UNLESS its on a big sale.

It seems to work well for Nintendo - their games stay at the same price for practically forever, and they don't do sales that much at all, so when it is a big sale, people get excited about it and jump on the opportunity. There isn't that much of an attitude of "meh, I'll just wait until its on an even better sale in like a month" like you see with your typical Steam indie game. And for all their faults, if there's one company that knows how to work the long-term investments instead of going for the short-term gains and make consistent, stable profit, its Nintendo. IMHO.
 

Jobbs

Banned
I didn't have much control over sales on Volgarr, since ASG published it on Steam so it was more their call. I personally think they put it on sale too often and increased how much it was on sale each time too rapidly, but I'm not the expert.

My personal belief is the best bet is to do crazy sales at some point but just not very often, so that when you do do one its a big deal. And don't start with 75% off sales, do smaller ones first. Basically, wait until your standard sales have hit a slump, then do a big sale to draw attention, then wait again. Yes, you'll get more money during the sales, that's true, but if you do it all the time then you risk too many people refusing to buy it UNLESS its on a big sale.

It seems to work well for Nintendo - their games stay at the same price for practically forever, and they don't do sales that much at all, so when it is a big sale, people get excited about it and jump on the opportunity. There isn't that much of an attitude of "meh, I'll just wait until its on an even better sale in like a month" like you see with your typical Steam indie game. And for all their faults, if there's one company that knows how to work the long-term investments instead of going for the short-term gains and make consistent, stable profit, its Nintendo. IMHO.

For indies, steam is everything.

I hear often how the main windows of opportunity for many indies is 1) around launch 2) when participating in big steam sales. That's it.

So if you are overly stingy with going on sale, then you miss out on those windows. So I'd say find some way to participate whenever there's a big sale.
 

OnPoint

Member
Yeah, one thing I like to tell other indie devs that ask me about it, is to not undersell themselves. Start at a decent, fair price - you can always put it on sale or lower the price later, but you can't really raise the price easily without raising a ruckus. Starting at a decently high price adds to the impression that this is a quality product, worthy of your attention, and not some throw-away game looking to make a quick buck. Of course you don't want to go too far the other way either. Pricing correctly is challenging!
Yup. We did this with Shutshimi and we paid the price. Pricing our game at a dollar ruined perception and we realized shortly after release that was the case. It's one of the hardest things to figure out at launch. Like you said, if you price higher, you can always do sales.
 

fuzzy_slippers

Neo Member
With the flood of mobile games on Steam I think pricing too cheap also might get you lumped in with the shoddy mobile ports. If most of your revenue comes from sales doesn't it also make sense to price higher? People don't get excited about a 3 dollar game 75% off but a $15 game on sale looks like something you can't miss out on.
 

Ito

Member
Hey come on, it's Halloween. No one is going to show something spooky? Come on Jobbs, you're making a spooky game.
 

Jobbs

Banned
Hey come on, it's Halloween. No one is going to show something spooky? Come on Jobbs, you're making a spooky game.

I would but I didn't make the cut. if the beta was done a few days sooner I'd have put in a secret pumpkin head zombie or something.
 

Ito

Member
Y8bi7Oh.png


spooky dog in spooky test tileset

3spooky5me


--


Mm... GAF, those of you making/interested into 2d side scrollers... would you like to discuss about underwater mechanics?

Are you going to implement them in your game?

How will you do it?

A) Metroid/Sonic style: the character can't swim or dive. It'll be able to move underwater, but more slowly. Gamedev-wise, all it takes would be tweaking the hspeed and gravity values.

B) Mario/Megaman style: Same as above, but you can "swim" by continuosly hitting jump.

C) Ecco/Aquaria style: Being able to move in all 8/16/32 directions underwater.

D) (my personal favourite) Toe Jam & Earl 2 style: Separate mechanics for swimming and diving. You can swim to the left/right while on the surface, and the character keeps floating till you press "down". Then it dives into the water and you can move in all directions. When you reach the surface again, it switches into "floating" mode.

E) Other (please elaborate)


Some sketches from my design document to illustrate this otherwise visually boring discussion:

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vSDjxch.jpg
 

Five

Banned
I don't like underwater sections in platformers. Wading through and drowning are fine, but for me swimming and walking underwater are rarely fun, and never as fun as the rest of the game.

Of the options, I like D best because it usually translates into spending most of the time with your head out of the water.
 

Ashodin

Member
Did some hella optimization of the game, having to cut back on mural size means I get more creative with how they're displayed.

But on the plus side, I just cut like 3 mb of memory
 
A) Metroid/Sonic style: the character can't swim or dive. It'll be able to move underwater, but more slowly. Gamedev-wise, all it takes would be tweaking the hspeed and gravity values.

B) Mario/Megaman style: Same as above, but you can "swim" by continuosly hitting jump.

You can't swim in Megaman, it's actually like A... <_< Unless you're talking about some weird spin-off.

As for the question, um... no specific preference. It really depends how the game is designed.
 

Jobbs

Banned
I actually plan to do my next game with a considerable focus on underwater elements, so I've put a lot of thought into this.

I'm thinking while underwater, it'd be go in the direction of the control stick -- sorta like frogsuit mario but more refined.
 

Blizzard

Banned
Aquaria is one of the few side-scrolling underwater games I can remember playing that wasn't annoying. Incidentally, it is also rather beautiful and Super-Metroid-esque. I recommend playing it if one is considering underwater gameplay.
 

Lautaro

Member
Finally, this thing is starting to look more like a game. I got this webm that is not visually striking but shows the tactical map where you can see all the ships as icons (people that have played Homeworld must be familiar with this and how useful it becomes when you lead a fleet in a 3D environment).

Also now the ships can be ordered to attack more than one enemy and will attack their "favorite enemies" first (for example: a bomber will go against a capital ship and a interceptor will go against bombers first) and sort them by distance.

http://a.pomf.se/dozncb.webm
 

Nibel

Member
I didn't have much control over sales on Volgarr, since ASG published it on Steam so it was more their call. I personally think they put it on sale too often and increased how much it was on sale each time too rapidly, but I'm not the expert.

My personal belief is the best bet is to do crazy sales at some point but just not very often, so that when you do do one its a big deal. And don't start with 75% off sales, do smaller ones first. Basically, wait until your standard sales have hit a slump, then do a big sale to draw attention, then wait again. Yes, you'll get more money during the sales, that's true, but if you do it all the time then you risk too many people refusing to buy it UNLESS its on a big sale.

It seems to work well for Nintendo - their games stay at the same price for practically forever, and they don't do sales that much at all, so when it is a big sale, people get excited about it and jump on the opportunity. There isn't that much of an attitude of "meh, I'll just wait until its on an even better sale in like a month" like you see with your typical Steam indie game. And for all their faults, if there's one company that knows how to work the long-term investments instead of going for the short-term gains and make consistent, stable profit, its Nintendo. IMHO.

Thanks for your insight Rubikant; this is really helpful. It saddens me that the Xbox One audience doesn't embrace Volgar as much as the Steam community did and does, but don't let it bring you down. I didn't have the chance to play it yet since I'm busy with doing my own stuff, but from what I've seen it looks worth everybody's time and I'm looking forward to slash some lizard people into bloody pulps.

Hope you'll stick around!
 

D4Danger

Unconfirmed Member
Recorded a quick match against the AI yesterday. It's actually doing pretty well. Nowhere near as fun as playing against an other human being, but it's serviceable.

The colors in the video are a bit wonky, and I really need to change that goal sound effect with something less out of place. Can you guess which team was controlled by the AI? ;)



It's getting pretty close to being done (music is still a big thing), so I have to start thinking about how I'm gonna "market" this thing. I'm terrible at that stuff. Any tips?

I need this on my phone. great work.
 

friken

Member
Thanks for your insight Rubikant; this is really helpful. It saddens me that the Xbox One audience doesn't embrace Volgar as much as the Steam community did and does, but don't let it bring you down. I didn't have the chance to play it yet since I'm busy with doing my own stuff, but from what I've seen it looks worth everybody's time and I'm looking forward to slash some lizard people into bloody pulps.

Hope you'll stick around!

Rubikant, Thanks for the info on the xbox1 audience. We started the paperwork w m$ in hopes to publish StarDiver on xbox1. I haven't played Volgar either but it sure looks like fun. I think your theory about free is correct. When it is free, everyone grabs it even when it really isn't their sort of game. You are bound to have a lot of negative feedback from players who don't care for the genre but playing it because they get it w the gold membership.
 

Rubikant

Member
Thanks for your insight Rubikant; this is really helpful. It saddens me that the Xbox One audience doesn't embrace Volgar as much as the Steam community did and does, but don't let it bring you down. I didn't have the chance to play it yet since I'm busy with doing my own stuff, but from what I've seen it looks worth everybody's time and I'm looking forward to slash some lizard people into bloody pulps.

Hope you'll stick around!

Oh its not bringing me down, if anything I'm getting a real kick out of it. As my business partner/artist/only-other-guy-in-our-company says, having reactions split between people that hate the game and people that love the game is MUCH better than it just getting "meh, its okay I guess" reactions.

Besides that though, as I said before not having to feel guilty about someone paying money that didn't like it means I'm free to just be highly amused by those that play it for 5 minutes, suck horribly at it, rage quit, and publicly declare it the worst game ever made! =D

Don't worry, I've been lurking in this thread posting now and then for months now, I'm not going anywhere :).
 
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