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Did SCEA hinder the release of 2D games during the PS1 era?

Didn't this policy also bring down Working Designs? I think they had an issue with Sony for one game and it basically destroyed them...

I miss me some Working Designs... anyone here remember Dragon Force for the Saturn? Now that was pure gaming bliss... I need some whisky now...
 

gelf

Member
Yes I definitely recall the Sega magazines of the time mentioning that dumb restriction as a reason to get the Saturn instead. And I agreed at the time, I was happy staying with 2D. But in the mass market there was definitely a vibe that anything not using polygons was worthless now and that lasted a good long while even up to the PS2 era. We had a lot of horrible ugly 3D for the sake of 3D games in that era.
 

flux1

Member
I remember hearing of this back when it happened. There was talk of it still going on in the PS2 days from SNK having trouble getting their fighting games approved for release in the US.

The end result for me was getting more into PC gaming and buying a Saturn on sale not long after. From there I stuck with Sega, then Microsoft for my primary consoles until I got a finally got a used PS2 late in it's lifecycle.

I stopped reading gaming magazines around the time too as it felt like they were on board with the desire to bury 2d gaming as fast as they could.
 

GamerJM

Banned
This topic is reminding me of how bad NoA has been in comparison to NoE these past few years. Is there a reason the American branches of first-party console companies historically suck compared to the Japanese and European ones?
 

SerTapTap

Member
This sorta stuff was the worst, the "3D SO EXTREMEEEEE" era of advertising seems to still have negative effects on gaming, there are still people who view 2D games as some relic of the past when it's simply a different style.
 
Didn't this policy also bring down Working Designs? I think they had an issue with Sony for one game and it basically destroyed them...
Not the 2D thing, but they had a lot of trouble and spent lots of money and years working on trying to get SCEA to approve Goemon for US release, not sure the specific reasoning though, probably something asinine.
 
This topic is reminding me of how bad NoA has been in comparison to NoE these past few years. Is there a reason the American branches of first-party console companies historically suck compared to the Japanese and European ones?
Try telling that to European Nintendo fans, they'll say the opposite.
 
This topic is reminding me of how bad NoA has been in comparison to NoE these past few years. Is there a reason the American branches of first-party console companies historically suck compared to the Japanese and European ones?
In some cases, it's too much autonomy. In other cases, it's not enough.
 

Man God

Non-Canon Member
SCEA still has some odd policies in place (or at the very least had them until the end of PSP/PS3) with the whole can't sell an old game unless it is bundled routine. Kept Breath of Fire 3 PSP from ever coming over and leads directly to all those various third party bundles.
 

Justified

Member
SCEA still has some odd policies in place (or at the very least had them until the end of PSP/PS3) with the whole can't sell an old game unless it is bundled routine. Kept Breath of Fire 3 PSP from ever coming over and leads directly to all those various third party bundles.

I think BOF3 was a victim of Licensing issue. The Ultra Man skin is one example. Combine with the policy that the game had to be identical to the original release is what is holding it back (I suspect Suikoden 2 also) SCEE got around it by re-skinning Stallion
 

Man God

Non-Canon Member
I think BOF3 was a victim of Licensing issue. The Ultra Man skin is one example. Combine with the policy that the game had to be identical to the original release is what is holding it back (I suspect Suikoden 2 also) SCEE got around it by re-skinning Stallion

SCEE has proven in the past that they aren't SCEA and don't seem to go with any of their weird policies.
 
Naw I played Castlevania Symphony of the Night on PS1

I think the reason we never got a TRUE successor to SotN was because of the purging of 2D on consoles at the time. Really, it's the time when consoles became known mainly as "3D only"(even though there were some exceptions, and still are), and why most people think 2D is ONLY good for handhelds. THAT period in video game history is why people continue to think like that.

I like Sony(even back then), but an agenda like this(purge 2D from consoles) is one that should've NEVER existed. If 2D was to die, let it die on it's own accord. Don't stifle it... just because... 3D!!!!
 

Cheerilee

Member
IIRC, someone once said that Sony had a device in the PS1 era that would measure how long and how hard you were hitting the CPU, and could judge you based on that stat, with the idea being that if you're overheating the CPU, you must be doing something right.

So some developers realized that if your game was unambitious, and Sony was giving you trouble with approval, and you didn't have the budget to increase the scope of your game... just break the programming in small ways that abuse the CPU but don't cause your game to crash completely. Sony will think you done code-written good.
 

CamHostage

Member
I hated that mentality back in the day. I think that sort of limiting mentality fucks variety for us all. We could have good things, it's just asshats( with a skewed perception of how they think the world should be ruin it for the rest of us. It's one of the reasons I loath trends. And I don't think 2D was any threat to 3D. Cue the "What can't we have both" girl, because 3D was going strong. It would've just allowed more exposure of 2D to gamers who, hell, if given a fair chance, might've actually developed some appreciation for the style rather than being conditioned to be "all 3D, all the time!". I don't doubt that whole "movement" back in the day resulted in some of the kiddies to come afterwards being so negative towards anything 2D. At least in the recent years, some of those kids opened their minds to different gaming experiences, which is why there is a new found appreciation for the 2D/retro style.

As painful as it is to defend a policy that hurt me, I don't think hardcore fans understand how brutal a console war can get. These consoles might not have gotten where they did without some tough decisions...

Instituting policies that limit your software so that you can present the best image of your console has been with gaming from the earliest days. Back with Atari 2600, the company refused 3rd Party license (though they had other reasons for that, most all of those reasons based on $$.) When they did open up the console, a flood of cheap and low-quality software killed it. Nintendo instituted its Seal of Approval system in response, and it always limited publishers to certain numbers of products and markets in order to control the slate calendar and quality image of its console.

PlayStation has had its policies for different reasons, but it was the same goal: it seeks to create an image of a high-end, fully-immersive machine, and 3D graphics were the key selling point in kicking off that revolution. SEGA fought to compete, but because of the difficulties of that system the Saturn was left trying pump itself up as a "2D beast", yet look at how much good that did Saturn and how little the praise for how great the Saturn RAM chip was helped communicate its virtues. Even further on, when PSP was being accused of being a "port machine" at launch, they put in policies that combated that image. (For the most part, you can't just say, "We don't want your game on our console", so they create rules that they think will funnel developers in their direction, and if only a few games are big enough to ask for exception, they can figure out a stipulation that can allow it without breaking their relationships.)

We're on the other side of the policy-based console image shaping now, and PlayStation and Xbox are actually suffering an identity crisis because of how indies have taken over. Granted, the drop-out of the mid-tier game market (as well as the complications of adjusting to rising quality standards) has meant that only AAA-attempting games actually reach stores and so fewer games are being made in select genres compared to previous years. But when you look at comments on PS Blog for example every time a new game is announced, kids rail against the influx of indies and demand developers go back and make them some more Uncharteds or whatever they expect more of. Nobody's saying "no" on iPhone or Android, and although there are sales there, there's no identity to connect to. Nobody ever said "no" on PC either, but if you think about the game shelves where you went and bought those games, you know that store clerks cultivated an image of "PC gaming" where a master control did not exist, and even though some products sold bananas (like kids games and cheap bundles and such,) they were not placed on the same shelves because the standard had been set (some might say by the console companies) as to what promoted product would make for an aggressively interested customer base. Nintendo and PlayStation cultivated a certain market with their boxes, and as harsh as their choices were sometimes, it was effective (fiscally, at the very least, but also I'd argue it had a quality effect that encouraged game designers to go after the audience it was drafting.)

Later in the lifespan of their systems, Sony always relaxed its policies, but unfortunately for some of the early software in those formative days, it was too late. Hits ultimately are what define the image of your console, but in order to have hits, you have to clear the path for them to arrive and deliver.

(BTW MagnaderAlpha, you argue that the lack of 2D "resulted in some of the kiddies to come afterwards being so negative towards anything 2D", but I promise you it was the other way around back in the day. Sure, there were devotees, and maybe there were games in the pipelines that could have helped convince kids the way there are now, but when PlayStation was coming up, 2D was considered an insult to a lot of gamers' idea of 'quality' production values. Sony never officially told the kids that it was against 2D, the kids told Sony, loudly and clearly.)
 

Lindsay

Dot Hacked
If Sony were trying to deny Mega Man how the heck did Strider 2 get through?? SCEA really did their job well since I can think of very few 2D PS games I've played that aren't rpgs. Thank goodness for FFVII or we woulda missed out on those to huh? Nintendo must've been even worse though since I can barely even think 2D N64 games (Clayfighter, Mortal Kombat, ???) period. As messed up as Sega America was back then it didn't seem like they had any qualms with 2D games?
 
There are always exceptions to any SCEA rule, really. And sometimes there are notable cases of games being blocked despite similar games passing through.

I think they either used to or still do have a rule that ports of previous generation games should be packaged together and can't be released standalone - I believe this fucked over the PSP Remaster series for some games. They had an "Every game needs an english dub" rule, but Yakuza clearly got an exception. They had a rule for the PSP where PS1 ports required 30% new content - this blocked Tales of Eternia from coming to America, but it came to Europe fine. Mega Man Legends had other issues (specifically with the dub), but it probably would not have been able to come here on PSP under those rules, anyway.

I can't remember if Suikoden I+II was a case of a game being blocked or Konami being dumb. Theoretically it should have been fine, unless the lack of 30% new content overrode it being a compilation.

This reads like insanity
 

Phediuk

Member
No, not really. People severely exaggerate this supposed "3D-only policy".

Even among the launch games, Rayman and Raiden Project are glaring exceptions.
 
it was for our own good.

all worth it for the push of 3D and the release of Bubsy 3D.

They apparently blocked 3D games as well. There was a rumor that they killed the US release of Charlie's Angels for the PS2, which made it a Gamecube exclusive here.
 
I remember hearing quite a bit about this back in the day. Multiplatform 2D games that were on both Saturn and PS1 often had to have alternate soundtracks, new areas, extra content, or some other bonus to allow them to pass Sony's certification process.
 

Phediuk

Member
Between September and December of 1995, 14 fully 2D games were released for the PS1 in the US, or about 3-4 per month.

Rayman
Gex
Street Fighter Alpha,
Street Fighter the Movie
Raiden Project
Worms
Theme Park
X-COM
Viewpoint
Zoop
NBA Jam TE
Mortal Kombat 3
Primal Rage
WWF Wrestlemania

That's 14/53 games from 1995, or a little over 25%. There was no shortage of 2D games during this time period or any other period of the PS1's lifespan. The proportion goes even higher (much higher) if you start counting sprite/polygon hybrids.
 

CamHostage

Member
There are always exceptions to any SCEA rule, really. And sometimes there are notable cases of games being blocked despite similar games passing through.

I think they either used to or still do have a rule that ports of previous generation games should be packaged together and can't be released standalone - I believe this fucked over the PSP Remaster series for some games. They had an "Every game needs an english dub" rule, but Yakuza clearly got an exception. They had a rule for the PSP where PS1 ports required 30% new content - this blocked Tales of Eternia from coming to America, but it came to Europe fine. Mega Man Legends had other issues (specifically with the dub), but it probably would not have been able to come here on PSP under those rules, anyway.

Sony has its policies, and its adherence to those policies is fulled with idiosyncrasies, but to be fair, companies do scapegoat sometimes when a product fails to make the market. You never hear the other side of the story (as far as I know, Sony's top brass has never officially commented on its "2D policy", though I have seen the "30% original on PSP" thing in open conversation,) and many of stories of failed QA have long histories behind them. I would say that Vic's Working Designs stories are fairly grounded (and he is open about the process from every end that he understands of it) but I know that there's more to some of the legendary QA horror stories than just "they screwed us!"

Between September and December of 1995, 14 fully 2D games were released for the PS1 in the US, or about 3-4 per month.

I believe the "no 2D policy" wasn't really put in place until Sony was in a power position to make such a policy (there was a previous GAF investigation of it back in 2005), and may have also been an attempt to distance it from the Saturn since SEGA's box handled 2D better and PS might have looked bad if they had allowed uncontrolled quantities of 2D product against the competition. But sure, let's not be crazy here: Sony had 2D games on its platform. Great hit 2D games, some of which helped define the platform.
 

Lindsay

Dot Hacked
I remember hearing quite a bit about this back in the day. Multiplatform 2D games that were on both Saturn and PS1 often had to have alternate soundtracks, new areas, extra content, or some other bonus to allow them to pass Sony's certification process.
But parity?! Its pretty funny when people say console exclusive content started last gen. btw did this work both ways? Late ports of MM8, SotN, Resident Evil, an prolly others also got extra content. Dunno if that was cause the devs felt like it or Sega "demanding" it o.o?
 

DiscoJer

Member
There are always exceptions to any SCEA rule, really. And sometimes there are notable cases of games being blocked despite similar games passing through.

I think they either used to or still do have a rule that ports of previous generation games should be packaged together and can't be released standalone - I believe this fucked over the PSP Remaster series for some games. They had an "Every game needs an english dub" rule, but Yakuza clearly got an exception. They had a rule for the PSP where PS1 ports required 30% new content - this blocked Tales of Eternia from coming to America, but it came to Europe fine. Mega Man Legends had other issues (specifically with the dub), but it probably would not have been able to come here on PSP under those rules, anyway.

I can't remember if Suikoden I+II was a case of a game being blocked or Konami being dumb. Theoretically it should have been fine, unless the lack of 30% new content overrode it being a compilation.

That's true, but I think the 30% new content could have just been cutscenes.

I believe that's how PoPoLoCrois got released for the PSP, and then later Vakyrie Profile (both PS1 Ports). .
 
Sony has its policies, and its adherence to those policies is fulled with idiosyncrasies, but to be fair, companies do scapegoat sometimes when a product fails to make the market. You never hear the other side of the story (as far as I know, Sony's top brass has never officially commented on its "2D policy", though I have seen the "30% original on PSP" thing in open conversation,) and many of stories of failed QA have long histories behind them. I would say that Vic's Working Designs stories are fairly grounded (and he is open about the process from every end that he understands of it) but I know that there's more to some of the legendary QA horror stories than just "they screwed us!"



I believe the "no 2D policy" wasn't really put in place until Sony was in a power position to make such a policy (there was a previous GAF investigation of it back in 2005), and may have also been an attempt to distance it from the Saturn since SEGA's box handled 2D better and PS might have looked bad if they had allowed uncontrolled quantities of 2D product against the competition. But sure, let's not be crazy here: Sony had 2D games on its platform. Great hit 2D games, some of which helped define the platform.

So Konami did threaten them with Metal Gear Solid if they didn't release SOTN.
 

petran79

Banned
the irony is that jazz jackrabbit 2 back then was one very demanding pc game if you aimed at 640x480x32 resolution and 60 fps. Yet that res brought 2d platformers and online play to a whole new level.

Battle Beast also was the first high res 640x480 2d fighter

Pc still held strong with pnc adventure games. Till mi4 hit consoles...
 

M3d10n

Member
But SCEA published KOF95 and Samurai Shodown 3 for the PS1. And Real Bout FF as well? That's really weird.

I believe arcade ports (mostly of fighting games) got a pass, since they still sold the console's potential in giving what you couldn't get from 16-bit consoles.
 
http://www.ign.com/articles/1997/05/14/megaman-killed

I remember reading somewhere that Capcom then threatened to not release Resident Evil 2 after which Sony allowed it.

Any truth to this stuff or is just rumors?


Both SEGA and Nintendo had the same rules about 2D games. SEGA refused to localize many 2D Saturn games and Nintendo forced Konami to make the abomination that was Castlevania 64 and not a game similar to SOtN.
 
sörine;138617320 said:
I know SCEA blocked Soul Hackers way back in the day as well as an early port of Radiant Silvergun for PSX, which then was canceled entirely.

Soul Hackers was never released on Playstation. It was a Saturn game.

edit: holy shit it actually was! My bad.
 

Wasp

Member
This policy was in effect during the PS2 era too. Puyo Pop Fever was rejected by SCEA who cited generic 'quality' reasons.
 
As painful as it is to defend a policy that hurt me, I don't think hardcore fans understand how brutal a console war can get. These consoles might not have gotten where they did without some tough decisions...
As much as it pains for me to say it too, this is kind of true.

The NES was infamous for censoring games and limiting releases. However Nintendo had to do that as the model of selling $50+ games with the same quality control of the Google Play Store wasn't a successful model as it led to the downfall of gaming in North America. Parents wouldn't be happy if they brought a wave of broken games for, in todays money, $70 a piece.

The Playstation limited 2D games and anything too wacky Japanese, especially at launch time. However there was a reason for this. Sony was trying to change the image of video games. Unlike Nintendo and Sega they weren't going after 12 or 16 year olds. They going after 19+ year old market. Unfortunately 2D games reminded these people of "Nintendo" which was associated with kid, while anime was associated with cartoons which was also seen as for kids (remember this was pre-Adult Swim and anime wave days).

The PSP complaints just scream of Alzheimer's to me. The biggest shadow the PSP had was that it was a "port machine". The DS was selling circles around the PSP (especially in software) and one of the top reasons people listed for that was because the DS preferred tons of interesting new software while the PSP relied too much on ports from other systems. That's why Sony desperately pushed companies for new content all the time throughout the systems life.
 

Clockwork5

Member
Considering the massive amount of legitimately terrible games that were released for the platform I have a hard time believing that Sony rejected any games.

They should have been more worried about quality 3d titles being released, than roadblocking the release of mega man titles.
 
Yeah, the shitty policies in the early PS1 days were mostly Bernie Stolar's fault, and were relaxed once he left and Playstation established its position of complete dominance in '98 or so. He proceeded to move on to Sega and institute similarly shitty policies in the late Saturn era, most notably outright killing it in the US over a year before the Saturn launched.

In retrospect it's kind of weird that Sony gave WD so much shit over Growlanser and Goemon, given that at the same time they were approving all of NISA's localizations (they started doing Gust games in 2005 with Atelier Iris, which was fully 2D, on top of the "main" NIS games that they had been doing since NISA was created a year or two before.)
 

Summoner

Member
What......you mean even 2D fighters in the 90's?
This must be a joke?

Wait a damn FUCKING minute....

Is this why we never got 2D classics like Alien Vs Predator and Dungeons & Dragons: Shadow Over Mystara(but came out for Sega Saturn) for the PS1??

If so then Sony....
Ll1kBCZ.gif


If not I take it back!!
 
Yeah, the shitty policies in the early PS1 days were mostly Bernie Stolar's fault, and were relaxed once he left and Playstation established its position of complete dominance in '98 or so. He proceeded to move on to Sega and institute similarly shitty policies in the late Saturn era, most notably outright killing it in the US over a year before the Saturn launched.

In retrospect it's kind of weird that Sony gave WD so much shit over Growlanser and Goemon, given that at the same time they were approving all of NISA's localizations (they started doing Gust games in 2005 with Atelier Iris, which was fully 2D, on top of the "main" NIS games that they had been doing since NISA was created a year or two before.)
You can blame a lot of the bad things that happened in the late 90s on Bernie Stolar.
 
What......you mean even 2D fighters in the 90's?
This must be a joke?

Wait a damn FUCKING minute....

Is this why we never got 2D classics like Alien Vs Predator and Dungeons & Dragons: Shadow Over Mystara(but came out for Sega Saturn) for the PS1??

If so then Sony....

If not I take it back!!

It wouldn't have been able to handle a faithful port anyway.
 
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