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[BrokenEchelon]

Yes, you are. You don't get to decide for everyone what's a real issue, especially if you aren't directly involved.

No, we've got you for that.

 

[Dice//]

Read the updated OP. My opinion is that it's still fucking idiotic that this is an "issue" or a controversy. This is people trying to pin the tail on any part of the big bad sexism/misoginy donkey's ass just so that they can have something to moan and complain about.

Take all of that energy and fervor for diversity and apply it to something fucking meaningful instead of the internet's latest flavor of the week outrage topic on why the evil white heterosexual man is keeping you down because of a fucking Yu-Gi-Oh-convention-tier shirt.

Yeah because complaining gets us hard and wet. C'MON! This isn't for fun.

I do agree that there are a ton of issues that need to be tackled, anyone would. But quite frankly, a large part of the "battle" here is because so many wave this off as absolutely nothing when it does means something to a lot of people. Just because it's not your issue, doesn't mean another might not have a completely different opinion on it. Men

Spoiler

(#notallmen)

specifically are great here at saying a shirt with half-naked sexy women are 'perfectly fine' and women are over-reacting. It's a lot of the downplay and "blind okays" and complete lack of questions about the issue that's ruffled my feathers, personally. There is a lot more to this that we've been discussing then just "one man's shirt". This is also about sexualization of women, about male and female scientists (and the lack of the latter), and about misrepresentation and a lack of proffessionalism for a televised event.

There's already a Rosetta Comet/Philae Lander thread. Go post there if the issue isn't your thing; it's just as great if not better to post about.

 

[homegrowndub]

Both you and that article makes leaps in logic and uses generalisations that aren't helpful. The criticism that spawned the controversy didn't come from people who identified as feminists first and foremost and base their life around that ideology. It came from people with a genuine interest in the Rosetta mission who felt that the shirt that Matt Taylor wore promoted stereotypes that they find harmful. No one is crying wolf in this instance, you may not agree with how they perceive the situation but it is a situation that is real.

And honestly that is a vile article by a libertarian who seem to have an axe to grind with feminists rather than someone who cares about the Rosetta mission or Matt Taylor. "Whatever feminists say, their true priorities are revealed in what they do, and what they do is, mostly, man-bashing and special pleading." This statement is not compatible with reality, not backed up with any facts or research and I won't dignify the article with any more attention.

You don't have to, you've already read it. It's an opinion and one that I feel has good point. I'm not trying to sway your mind. I'm saying that if a shirt can cause so much outrage,then what's next? Buttcracks showing when you bend over? Feminist and the fight for equality shouldn't be focusing on the shirt the guy was wearing. It hasn't stifled women from joining the sciences. It's the pre concieved notion that all men are pigs.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

No, we've got you for that.

There's no way you'd know what's a real issue if people didn't speak up about them. The difference is some people prefer to only deal with issues they themselves consider important, which leads them to dismissing the valid points made by others outside of their bubble.

It's the pre concieved notion that all men are pigs.

There it is.

 

[homegrowndub]

Yes, you are. You don't get to decide for everyone what's a real issue, especially if you aren't directly involved.

So, why do you? Or for that matter a very vocal sect of feminist?

 

[CygnusXS]

You don't have to, you've already read it. It's an opinion and one that I feel has good point. I'm not trying to sway your mind. I'm saying that if a shirt can cause so much outrage,then what's next? Buttcracks showing when you bend over? Feminist and the fight for equality shouldn't be focusing on the shirt the guy was wearing. It hasn't stifled women from joining the sciences. It's the pre concieved notion that all men are pigs.

I mean, I suppose some radical feminists would fit that description, but they're really out there on the fringe. Maybe you should engage with some of the mainstream feminist literature.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

So, why do you? Or for that matter a very vocal sect of feminist?

The point is that it's obviously a big deal to many people, and someone saying it's not a real issue doesn't make it so. It's a lazy dismissal.

 

[Evil_Silver]

I still think this whole thing is a non-issue/controversy.

 

[Dice//]

Buttcracks showing when you bend over? Feminist and the fight for equality shouldn't be focusing on the shirt the guy was wearing. It hasn't stifled women from joining the sciences. It's the pre concieved notion that all men are pigs.

Wow, while we're making jumps like this, lets just make the entire human race wear neutral toned 'onesies' while we're at it.

OP updated the first page, professional STEM women reactions are in there too.
It's about workplace professionalism and equality more than men being pigs.

 

[BrokenEchelon]

Yeah because complaining gets us hard and wet. C'MON! This isn't for fun.

I do agree that there are a ton of issues that need to be tackled, anyone would. But quite frankly, a large part of the "battle" here is because so many wave this off as absolutely nothing when it does means something to a lot of people. Just because it's not your issue, doesn't mean another might not have a completely different opinion on it. Men

Spoiler

(#notallmen)

specifically are great here at saying a shirt with half-naked sexy women are 'perfectly fine' and women are over-reacting. It's a lot of the downplay and "blind okays" and complete lack of questions about the issue that's ruffled my feathers, personally. There is a lot more to this that we've been discussing then just "one man's shirt". This is also about sexualization of women, about professional women, and about misrepresentation and a lack of proffessionalism for a televised event.

There's already a Rosetta Comet/Philae Lander thread. Go post there if the issue isn't your thing; it's just as great if not better to post about.

I agree that the shirt is unprofessional. It's stupid and it's tacky, but what I cannot do is link it as some piece of the puzzle that is keeping women out of the sciences.

Ok, so it represents how men are so tone-deaf that women don't want to join the boy's club? Then let's go examine the reasons why women aren't joining the club in school and encourage better communication skills between the sexes in the sciences if men are being so tone deaf.

Instead of that, we've got people bullying a grown person and riddiculing him for expressing himself. If people were bullying and ridiculing a woman for expressing herself, how would this conversation differ? A lot, I would imagine, but because he belongs to the "dominant" sex it's ok to sacrifice him at the altar of love and understanding.

 

[MonkeyKing]

http://neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=139064659&postcount=1407

Have you read this post? That's what people are actually saying.

Beyond that post, a woman on Twitter called him an asshole. The Verge headline says they don't care about the comet excuse as a deflection from the shirt. So what people in this thread or of note out in the world have claimed his scalp or wanted to do that?

From the post you linked:

But a shirt featuring women in lingerie isn't appropriate for a broadcast if you care about women in STEM

If you're already a woman in STEM feeling worthless and then some guy goes on international broadcasts wearing a sexist shirt, he is reinforcing that feeling. You're just a joke on cloth, you see.

It's a big mistake for you to promote the shirt given the good work @esa and other scientific organizations do to promote #WomenInSTEM.

Rosetta scientist shows individual humans have a long way to go.

#Rosetta broadcast is actually going to discourage girls from science…

Thats just a sample of some pretty harsh.....and unfair....denouncements from "people of note" as you put it. He's discouraging girls from science? He's making a hypothetical woman in STEM feel worthless? As an individual, he's got a long way to go? He doesn't care about women in STEM?

You don't think thats a little caustic, a little hyperbolic? As an exercise in empathy, would it wound you to take such shots from colleagues you respect? Mind that you're not a public figure: not a politician, entertainer or any other position that requires you to have thick skin in dealing with a potentially hostile audience. No one cares about the thing you came to address, you're the poster child for systemic dysfunction.

You might feel that he earned his lashing, whether he earned it by accident or not. You might feel that its worth it for this man to get his ass chewed, because it presents a great opportunity to insert an issue you care about at a moment it could garner attention....raising awareness so to speak.

Alternately you could find it repellant and counterproductive, a case where dramatic outrage (on multiple sides) draws more attention than the dysfunction you wanted to combat in the first place.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Instead of that, we've got people bullying a grown person

So we've got the Verge headline saying they don't like the deflection and that woman on Twitter in the story calling him an asshole. What else?

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

From the post you linked:



Thats just a sample of some pretty harsh.....and unfair....denouncements from "people of note" as you put it. He's discouraging girls from science? He's making a hypothetical woman in STEM feel worthless? As an individual, he's got a long way to go? He doesn't care about women in STEM?

You don't think thats a little caustic, a little hyperbolic? As an exercise in empathy, would it wound you to take such shots from colleagues you respect? Mind that you're not a public figure: not a politician, entertainer or any other position that requires you to have thick skin in dealing with a potentially hostile audience. No one cares about the thing you came to address, you're the poster child for systemic dysfunction.

You might feel that he earned his lashing, whether he earned it by accident or not. You might feel that its worth it for this man to get his ass chewed, because it presents a great opportunity to insert an issue you care about at a moment it could garner attention....raising awareness so to speak.

Alternately you could find it repellant and counterproductive, a case where dramatic outrage (on multiple sides) draws more attention than the dysfunction you wanted to combat in the first place.

That's claiming a scalp? Okay.

 

[BocoDragon]

Yeah because complaining gets us hard and wet. C'MON! This isn't for fun.

I do agree that there are a ton of issues that need to be tackled, anyone would. But quite frankly, a large part of the "battle" here is because so many wave this off as absolutely nothing when it does means something to a lot of people. Just because it's not your issue, doesn't mean another might not have a completely different opinion on it. Men

Spoiler

(#notallmen)

specifically are great here at saying a shirt with half-naked sexy women are 'perfectly fine' and women are over-reacting. It's a lot of the downplay and "blind okays" and complete lack of questions about the issue that's ruffled my feathers, personally. There is a lot more to this that we've been discussing then just "one man's shirt". This is also about sexualization of women, about male and female scientists (and the lack of the latter), and about misrepresentation and a lack of proffessionalism for a televised event.

There's already a Rosetta Comet/Philae Lander thread. Go post there if the issue isn't your thing; it's just as great if not better to post about.

When people say things like that, they aren't actually implying that this discussion shouldn't be had. It's more like, they hear you, they're interested in the issue.... and they disagree vehemently with the side that says its a wrong. They don't share your theory of what this shirt means.

 

[not_so_special]

Which is factually not true, or this wouldn't have been an issue, wouldn't have warranted an apology, and we wouldn't have had this thread in the first place

well i bet you a lot of people out there ( forums,blogs,and tumblr) women and men have seen this whole affair as one of the stupid and agressive campaings modern internet feminist have chosen to fight

and by a lot of people i mean almost everyone outside of this internet forums bubble,heck even my wife who is a ardent feminist and works in the tech industry thinks this is nuts like a self parody of some monty python sketch

 

[Dice//]

I agree that the shirt is unprofessional. It's stupid and it's tacky, but what I cannot do is link it as some piece of the puzzle that is keeping women out of the sciences.

Ok, so it represents how men are so tone-deaf that women don't want to join the boy's club? Then let's go examine the reasons why women aren't joining the club in school and encourage better communication skills between the sexes in the sciences if men are being so tone deaf.

Instead of that, we've got people bullying a grown person and riddiculing him for expressing himself. If people were bullying and ridiculing a woman for expressing herself, how would this conversation differ? A lot, I would imagine, but because he belongs to the "dominant" sex it's ok to sacrifice him at the altar of love and understanding.

A good part of the actual 'bullying' has been condemned by the Gaffers who fall in the 'anti-shirt' category. Literally, the vocal few who post such dross are, of course and as always, the ones getting the attention and bringing the bad name on. A number of us respect and admire Matt Taylor for his achievements (and his apology). Like I said, this isn't about Matt Taylor; it is still about the shirt, but the commentary and dialogue around it.

I do agree, and have posted several times (long, long ago heh) that I definitely don't see this controversy as the "be-all and end-all" to feminist debate or the LATEST and BIGGEST hurdle it's facing. Not by a long shot. But I do believe it is symptomatic of something much larger at play, a discreet sexism that means we don't question this sort of content, or about male/female gender discrepancies in professional fields and in the general view of how they're depicted.

 

[homegrowndub]

Wow, while we're making jumps like this, lets just make the entire human race wear neutral toned 'onesies' while we're at it.

OP updated the first page, professional STEM women reactions are in there too.
It's about workplace professionalism and equality more than men being pigs.

Maybe we should wear onesies. That way everyone is equal. Let's stifle everyones individuality. Everyone is special!

 

[Thorakai]

Read the updated OP. My opinion is that it's still fucking idiotic that this is an "issue" or a controversy. This is people trying to pin the tail on any part of the big bad sexism/misoginy donkey's ass just so that they can have something to moan and complain about.

Take all of that energy and fervor for diversity and apply it to something fucking meaningful instead of the internet's latest flavor of the week outrage topic on why the evil white heterosexual manis keeping you down because of a fucking Yu-Gi-Oh-convention-tier shirt.

Do you really think people moan and complain for the sake of moaning and complaining? I mean just the fact you added evil, white, and heterosexual to a topic focused solely on issues of sexism makes it likely you are just lashing out against "social justice warrior" culture than taking the time to read concerns and arguments on the other side of the issue.

 

[BocoDragon]

Instead of that, we've got people bullying a grown person and riddiculing him for expressing himself. If people were bullying and ridiculing a woman for expressing herself, how would this conversation differ? A lot, I would imagine, but because he belongs to the "dominant" sex it's ok to sacrifice him at the altar of love and understanding.

It would also be completely different if the form on the t-shirt was that of an idealized fantasy male rather than a female.

My sense is that some of the uproar over depictions of women's bodies is just as "tribal" and "primitive" when it's about feminism/equality as when it's about conservatism, religion, "decency", etc.

I think people of both sexes and of all political persuasions are obsessed with the issue of how much or how little the female body should be shown. It's such a core obsession that it may not even be a relatively recent obsession derived from the inequalities of patriarchy... it could be quite primitive an instinct indeed.

 

[Dice//]

When people say things like that, they aren't actually implying that this discussion shouldn't be had. It's more like, they hear you, they're interested in the issue.... and they disagree vehemently with the side that says its a wrong. They don't share your theory of what this shirt means.

To be fair, the whole thing is over and done with (I think?). It's mostly residual on forums like this or who want to bring it up and keep bumping it.

As for not sharing the theory, perhaps it's because feminism still has a long way to go to reach equality. Or maybe women will start adapting and wearing embellished/silly portrayals of sexy men in leather in risquee poses. I hope not, because I think it's silly (and generally can't "rock" those kinds of shirts), but you're free to wear what you want.

Still, even if it isn't a big issue, I agree, I still find it funny when people ignore the lack of professionalism in part of it. I'm sure a silly Hawaiian shirt with flowers or boats, or even those dumb DBZ shirts would have been fine... there was just a sad "hiccup" between what he wore that day being at odds with an issue seen in the STEM field. ...whoops. :/

Maybe we should wear onesies. That way everyone is equal. Let's stifle everyones individuality. Everyone is special!

Works on Star Trek. And Jean Luc is a badass

Spoiler

and no I don't agree with your ridiculous hyperbolic scenario

 

[CygnusXS]

From the post you linked:



Thats just a sample of some pretty harsh.....and unfair....denouncements from "people of note" as you put it. He's discouraging girls from science? He's making a hypothetical woman in STEM feel worthless? As an individual, he's got a long way to go? He doesn't care about women in STEM?

You don't think thats a little caustic, a little hyperbolic? As an exercise in empathy, would it wound you to take such shots from colleagues you respect? Mind that you're not a public figure: not a politician, entertainer or any other position that requires you to have thick skin in dealing with a potentially hostile audience. No one cares about the thing you came to address, you're the poster child for systemic dysfunction.

You might feel that he earned his lashing, whether he earned it by accident or not. You might feel that its worth it for this man to get his ass chewed, because it presents a great opportunity to insert an issue you care about at a moment it could garner attention....raising awareness so to speak.

Alternately you could find it repellant and counterproductive, a case where dramatic outrage (on multiple sides) draws more attention than the dysfunction you wanted to combat in the first place.

The problem with your argument here is that you're asking us to place our priority on maintaining the self-esteem of a person we think made a mistake over our concerns about the problems his mistake (and other mistakes that will continue to be made if we don't speak up) will lead to. You're asking us to privilege this one man's feelings over the emotional and psychological harm that his choice will have played a role in perpetuating among women in his field and young girls who might want to go into his field. That is the textbook definition of patriarchy. It's also a sign that your ability to empathize with women is lacking compared to your ability to do that with other men, and that is a socialization problem.

 

[homegrowndub]

and by a lot of people i mean almost everyone outside of this internet forums bubble,heck even my wife who is a ardent feminist and works in the tech industry thinks this is nuts like a self parody of some monty python sketch

This. The only place I see this taking place is on the interwebs. In the real world it is a non issue. My three older sister laughed it off. My girlfriend thinks I'm a chump for debating on an online forum. Feminist are making a mountain out of a molehill.

 

[shanshan310]

I never said it was the "only way" people were suggesting but... this entire thread has been centered on the idea that shirts that may or may not be offensive to women help to create a work climate in the STEM professions that discourages them from participating in those professions. Banning the freedom to wear these types of shirts would be a form of surrender to those who desire a more "welcoming" atmosphere for women in STEM fields. I do not think this trade off is balanced, nor effective. The ends do not justify the means, and I doubt the means would necessarily result in the end.

So your issue is actually that you want people to be able to wear whatever they want to work? That seems like an entirely separate issue and freedom of expression in the workplace is not the fault of women or feminists at all.
That aside, you don't think a line should be drawn somewhere in a professional environment, at least in public or on tv? Should people be allowed to come to work barefoot in just shorts? My brother has a T shirt that says "ABORTED" with hanged babies all over it, if this scientist wore that what kind of message would that have sent to the public about the company? I am generally for freedom of expression but these societal rules exist for a reason, and companies/organisations have reputations to uphold. Plus people generally don't want to see porn or gore at work.

Which is factually not true, or this wouldn't have been an issue, wouldn't have warranted an apology, and we wouldn't have had this thread in the first place

Pointing out that the shirt is inappropriate or crude doesn't automatically make people 'offended'. I was speaking more generally too, complaints about 'the PC police' and 'offended' are everywhere online and off. It's hard to make any statement without people coming in to let the world know just how annoyed they are at someone else complaining.

 

[Dice//]

Feminist are making a mountain out of a molehill.

Ah shit, that reminds me, Emma Watson is somewhere probably crying right now because Feminism's become shit again.

 

[BrokenEchelon]

Do you really think people moan and complain for the sake of moaning and complaining? I mean just the fact you added evil, white, and heterosexual to a topic focused solely on issues of sexism makes it likely you are just lashing out against "social justice warrior" culture than taking the time to read concerns and arguments on the other side of the issue.

I think the moaning and complaining has gotten out hand because it makes it so easy for the moaners and complainers to be on the "right/just" side by blowing up the target of their attack into a symbol of the greater concept of whatever social injustice it supposedly represents.

It's probably a feel-good high for some people at this point, some of who I would imagine don't lift a finger in the real world to make things better after they've won the weekly battle online.

That's my perception of it, however accurate/inaccurate.

 

[homegrowndub]

To be fair, the whole thing is over and done with (I think?). It's mostly residual on forums like this or who want to bring it up and keep bumping it.

Works on Star Trek. And Jean Luc is a badass

Spoiler

and no I don't agree with your ridiculous hyperbolic scenario

Of course you wont. I have an opinion and am allowed to have one. You also have an opinion and are allowed to have one. The difference is that i respect your opinion. You dismiss mines with out a thought. That is the biggest issue feminist face.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

I think the moaning and complaining has gotten out hand because it makes it so easy for the moaners and complainers to be on the "right/just" side by blowing up the target of their attack into a symbol of the greater concept of whatever social injustice it supposedly represents.

It's probably some feel-good high for some people at this point, some of who I would imagine don't lift a finger in the real world to make things better after they've won the weekly battle online.

That's my perception of it, however accurate/inaccurate.

It's more like "this is what we're talking about" than any attempt to character assassinate. Pretty much every person who has stayed in this thread doesn't have a bad word or thought about him, but the topic keeps coming back to his feelings for some reason.

 

[CygnusXS]

It's probably a feel-good high for some people at this point,

It's actually incredibly exhausting and frustrating.

 

[Thorakai]

I think the moaning and complaining has gotten out hand because it makes it so easy for the moaners and complainers to be on the "right/just" side by blowing up the target of their attack into a symbol of the greater concept of whatever social injustice it supposedly represents.

It's probably a feel-good high for some people at this point, some of who I would imagine don't lift a finger in the real world to make things better after they've won the weekly battle online.

That's my perception of it, however accurate/inaccurate.

I just hope you have a good reason for believing that besides "it makes sense in my head."

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Of course you wont. I have an opinion and am allowed to have one. You also have an opinion and are allowed to have one. The difference is that i respect your opinion. You dismiss mines with out a thought. That is the biggest issue feminist face.

It's hilarious that you're saying your opinions are being dismissed without a thought. Have you realized that's what you've done to others from your first post? You've done it in every post.

 

[Dice//]

Of course you wont. I have an opinion and am allowed to have one. You also have an opinion and are allowed to have one. The difference is that i respect your opinion. You dismiss mines with out a thought. That is the biggest issue feminist face.

HUH....? :O

You're talking about an unrealistic scenario that, sure let's entertain we all wear neutral-toned onesies one day, is NO WHERE NEAAAAAR CLOSE to happening. Me dismissing this is a symptom of everything wrong with Feminism???
You have to do better than that. No one is bringing up "freedom of expression" in clothing attire beyond --- at the very worst of it -- wearing work-appropriate clothes. I assume we all have some basic consensus on what that could be.

It's actually incredibly exhausting and frustrating.

I was sad, then I laughed, then I got a bit sad again. :S

 

[homegrowndub]

Ah shit, that reminds me, Emma Watson is somewhere probably crying right now because Feminism's become shit again.

How does this help? Do you know, Emma? Do you have such an intimate relationship with her? That's hyperbolic. You refuse to address my post with nonsense.

 

[Dice//]

How does this help? Do you know, Emma? Do you have such an intimate relationship with her? That's hyperbolic. You refuse to address my post with nonsense.

Alright, I'm sorry. I'll talk/debate about anything you want then. Just help me see things your way without resorting to hyperbole.

(btw, in case I should have been specific, Emma Watson is a part of the "He for She" campaign, about Equality and feminism --- but since Feminism is getting the bad rap again....[dot dot dot])

 

[homegrowndub]

HUH....? :O

You're talking about an unrealistic scenario that, sure let's entertain we all wear neutral-toned onesies one day, is NO WHERE NEAAAAAR CLOSE to happening. Me dismissing this is a symptom of everything wrong with Feminism???
You have to do better than that. No one is bringing up "freedom of expression" in clothing attire beyond --- at the very worst of it -- wearing work-appropriate clothes. I assume we all have some basic consensus on what that could be.



I was sad, then I laughed, then I got a bit sad again. :S

Who is to say what is work appropriate? I didn't know you were head of the Euro space agency. If an issue existed with the shirt he would have been told to change. If I was the head, I would have told him to take off that ridiculous shirt before getting on tv. Stop assuming what is right and wrong based on your opinion.

 

[MonkeyKing]

Ugh. I missed the scalp claiming. Did we at least get it on video?

Yes, as it turns out:

http://youtu.be/Kd1Au6ndvYw

There's your pound of flesh.

 

[homegrowndub]

Alright, I'm sorry. I'll talk/debate about anything you want then. Just help me see things your way without resorting to hyperbole.

(btw, in case I should have been specific, Emma Watson is a part of the "He for She" campaign, about Equality and feminism --- but since Feminism is getting the bad rap again....[dot dot dot])

I'm very aware of, Emma. But I would atleast hope she can see the ridiculousness over the outrage and witch hunt that took place with Matt Taylor.

 

[shanshan310]

Who is to say what is work appropriate? I didn't know you were head of the Euro space agency. If an issue existed with the shirt he would have been told to change. If I was the head, I would have told him to take off that ridiculous shirt before getting on tv. Stop assuming what is right and wrong based on your opinion.

Society. Like, right now go out to a bank or an office building and count how many employees are wearing shirts with naked women on them. You can argue that everyone in this thread has different opinions on what is work appropriate but norms exist. Which is why people noticed the shirt in the first place.

That the boss and his coworkers didn't notice, as has been discussed already, is evidence of a lack of awareness about women in the workplace among other things.

 

[Dice//]

Who is to say what is work appropriate? I didn't know you were head of the Euro space agency. If an issue existed with the shirt he would have been told to change. If I was the head, I would have told him to take off that ridiculous shirt before getting on tv. Stop assuming what is right and wrong based on your opinion.

You're really hitting this harder than I ever meant to (and yeah it's my opinion, I said it's my opinion and I try to interject with that point as much as I can). I'm not trying to debate semantics here about work clothes though; but 30+ pages of debate still should say something. I'm glad we agree on the underlined part at least.

I'm very aware of, Emma. But I would atleast hope she can see the ridiculousness over the outrage and witch hunt that took place with Matt Taylor.

Gaf is not part of the Witch Hunt, it's more about social debate at this point and not Matt Taylor.

 

[Infinite]

Of course you wont. I have an opinion and am allowed to have one. You also have an opinion and are allowed to have one. The difference is that i respect your opinion. You dismiss mines with out a thought. That is the biggest issue feminist face.

Basically you're attacking strawmen and you don't care

 

[Laughing Banana]

The conflict of opinions here largely caused by the things that you folks are discussing has, in actuality, swayed way further than the incident discussed in the OP.

Maybe someone should create another thread specifically discussing the issue of women in scientific fields so that it doesn't get bogged down by, "Oh no, why are you getting mad by him wearing that shirt?"

 

[Opto]

Things criticism about a shirt have been compared to: a witch hunt, a lynch mob.

But lo and behold it's the feminists that make a mountain out of a molehill.

 

[shanshan310]

Things criticism about a shirt have been compared to: a witch hunt, a lynch mob.

But lo and behold it's the feminists that make a mountain out of a molehill.

don't forget crushing freedom and making men surrender to women.

 

[BocoDragon]

Wait, what is so confusing about understanding that there is a culture/set of attitudes that make it so that he was able to get on public TV as a representative of his field on a very, very big moment for that field, and wear a shirt with sexualized chicks on there without realizing that it may not be appropriate?

The dude apologized, everything is fine now, but it doesn't mean that culture/attitude has disappeared. This reaction should have had people (especially people in the science/STEM field) thinking Hmm. What can I do about this? Instead, it seemed to have turned into a lot of people being resistant about the idea that there's a problem, and this guy wearing this shirt is a symptom.

Like someone mentioned before, it's actually a little ironic that this guy wore this shirt on TV, while made by a friend. I agree that he probably actually thought it was "cool" in a shallow way-- like, hey, my friend made this, now she's going to see me on TV wearing it! Awesome! That no one said anything to him about it before he got on TV-- now, that's a bigger problem, to me, than what he did by himself.

I can't help but notice your avatar in the context of this thread. Yes, I know it's you in the pic.

Now putting aside the fact that a GAF avatar and being on TV are two completely different things, the point has been raised that the very existence of such a shirt, even outside of a TV press setting, is a "symptom of sexist, sexualizing, exclusionary culture".

Is your avatar a symptom of a sexist/sexualized culture?
The answer to that might reveal why many people are unwilling to accept that this shirt is, in objective fact, a definite symptom of sexist culture.

 

[CygnusXS]

don't forget crushing freedom and making men surrender to women.

It's also been compared to being raped. This has been a good thread.

 

[Opto]

I can't help but notice your avatar in the context of this thread. Yes, I know it's you in the pic.

Now putting aside the fact that a GAF avatar and being on TV are two completely different things, the point has been raised that the very existence of such a shirt, even outside of a TV press setting, is a "symptom of sexist, sexualizing, exclusionary culture".

Is your avatar a symptom of a sexist/sexualized culture?
The answer to that might reveal why many people are unwilling to accept that this shirt is, in objective fact, a definite symptom of sexist culture.

"Putting aside the context, let's look at these things in a vacuum!"

 

[speculawyer]

Something something women are all a bunch of emotional nutjobs anyway WHY CAN'T WE HAVE A FEMALE PRESIDENT?! BECAUSE SHE'LL LAUNCH NUKES EVERY MONTH WHEN SHE PMS LOLOLOLOLOLOLL WAIT WHY ARE YOU SO MAD ABOUT MY JOKE YOU WOMEN CAN'T HANDLE ANYTHING SEE THIS IS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.

Why can't we have female president? Because she'll spend 30 pages going over someone wearing the wrong shirt.


Edit: It was not an appropriate shirt. The guy apologized. But let us beat the dead horse into the ground. That is what I think gets some people.

 

[BocoDragon]

But that's the key difference.

This avatar is my avatar in GAF, a private forum community in which I am in no way representing anyone or anything but myself. I have NO problems with sexualizing myself.

My linkedin profile? It's definitely NOT this avatar. My work email? Not xxxiluvcock696969xxx@gmail.com. My work signature? Nothing about sex. What I wear when I appear on TV or in photos representing my company? 3 piece suit, buttoned up to my neck, a skirt that goes down to my knees.

Hell, I even hesitate to wear anything at all tight or revealing to my classes in graduate school. I don't wear what I wore as a freshman, because now it's a different representation.

The fact that no one told him, hey man, that shirt probably isn't appropriate, and that he didn't seem to be aware of how women are treated in STEM (otherwise, would he have worn that shirt?) is the problem.

That actually furthers my understanding of this issue if what you say is accepted by others around here.

So the shirt is okay.

But the fact that no one told him the shirt was ok in that setting is what makes it an exclusionary culture.

That actually makes perfect sense. Because I think a lot of the people who are like "what? The shirt is an example of deep sexism??? That's gonna keep women out of STEM??" are also thinking "...well I wouldn't have worn that shirt on TV either. Duh.".

"Putting aside the context, let's look at these things in a vacuum!"

No. My example makes perfect sense for talking about whether the shirt itself is sexist, rather than if it's a good idea to wear on TV or not.

A lot of the pushback on this issue is people reading it as "that shirt shouldn't exist at all".

Spoiler

from a fashion sense, it shouldn't exist, but I digress

 

[TwEE-N-Toast]

Things criticism about a shirt have been compared to: a witch hunt, a lynch mob.

But lo and behold it's the feminists that make a mountain out of a molehill.

This is out of the world hyperbole to you? Then how do you feel about the many times this shirt was compared to blackface?

 

[CygnusXS]

Why can't we have female president? Because she'll spend 30 pages going over someone wearing the wrong shirt.


Edit: It was not an appropriate shirt. The guy apologized. But let us beat the dead horse into the ground. That is what I think gets some people.

Who is "us" and what in your opinion is the particular dead horse here?

 

[ginger ninja]

This still going on...can someone sum up why this thread is 30 pages long