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'Shirtstorm' Leads To Apology From European Space Scientist

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You seem pretty offended by all these complaints. A lot of people give a shit, and for a lot of decent reasons if you'd actually read the thread.


I don't know, people have the right to be offended for anything. I just don't like the persecution and demonisation of a guy for a t-shirt that displayed female bodies, on such an important day for science - a t-shirt that was made by a female. It rubs wrong with me. I don't want to concentrate on feminism and sexism because I think it is a trap - argument.

But I would like to comment this - I think this is a weird phenomenon that is more prevalent in the U.S. society, and less in Europe. Anything can be racist, anything can be sexist, everything is neutered and filtered, because people are afraid that someone, somewhere will become offended.

In Europe (and this is completely anecdotal but still), I think things are different. People seem to just... don't give a fuck I guess?
 
I don't know, people have the right to be offended for anything. I just don't like the persecution and demonisation of a guy for a t-shirt that displayed female bodies, on such an important day for science - a t-shirt that was made by a female. It rubs wrong with me. I don't want to concentrate on feminism and sexism because I think it is a trap - argument.

But I would like to comment this - I think this is a weird phenomenon that is more prevalent in the U.S. society, and less in Europe. Anything can be racist, anything can be sexist, everything is neutered and filtered, because people are afraid that someone, somewhere will become offended.

In Europe (and this is completely anecdotal but still), I think things are different. People seem to just... don't give a fuck I guess?
Probably has to do with our centuries of officially treating minorities and women as less than one whole human.

Also, I don't think anyone here in the last day has persecuted or demonized the guy. Everyone's in pretty good agreement about him. So it's weird as hell that people keep saying things like that about the subject. It's like you're just reading a headline and throwing out a reaction, because even the OP has been updated with a lot of detail.
 
Probably has to do with our centuries of officially treating minorities and women as less than one whole human.

Also, I don't think anyone here in the last day has persecuted or demonized the guy. Everyone's in pretty good agreement about him. So it's weird as hell that people keep saying things like that about the subject. It's like you're just reading a headline and throwing out a reaction, because even the OP has been updated with a lot of detail.


Apologies about the last part, I just jumped to conclusions because I only had time to read bits of the thread here and there. But hey, too many people in this thread seem to be doing the same thing - including yourself :).
 

Jedeye Sniv

Banned
Probably has to do with our centuries of officially treating minorities and women as less than one whole human.

Also, I don't think anyone here in the last day has persecuted or demonized the guy. Everyone's in pretty good agreement about him. So it's weird as hell that people keep saying things like that about the subject. It's like you're just reading a headline and throwing out a reaction, because even the OP has been updated with a lot of detail.

He was made to cry in public, that's pretty fucked up and shows this is perhaps a disproportionate response.
 
He was made to cry in public, that's pretty fucked up and shows this is perhaps a disproportionate response.
You're jumping to a conclusion on why he cried. He can realize his own mistake after having it pointed out to him.

But if just crying is enough to point toward a disproportionate response, we could then be ignoring all sorts of things that involved crying people.
 

Jedeye Sniv

Banned
You're jumping to a conclusion on why he cried. He can realize his own mistake after having it pointed out to him.

But if just crying is enough to point toward a disproportionate response, we could then be ignoring all sorts of things that involved crying people.

I think I would cry if I had to defend myself in front of cameras after the feminist internet blew the fuck up. That's got to be a scary position to find yourself in after coming off the biggest high of your life.

Think about this. A SHIRT made the NEWS. How is that not disproportionate?
 
You're jumping to a conclusion on why he cried. He can realize his own mistake after having it pointed out to him.

But if just crying is enough to point toward a disproportionate response, we could then be ignoring all sorts of things that involved crying people.

Didn't you hear, there was a SOCIAL JUSTICE WARRIOR off camera, manipulating his lacrimal glands.

They have powers, you know
 

Mindwipe

Member
Probably has to do with our centuries of officially treating minorities and women as less than one whole human.

Also, I don't think anyone here in the last day has persecuted or demonized the guy. Everyone's in pretty good agreement about him. So it's weird as hell that people keep saying things like that about the subject. It's like you're just reading a headline and throwing out a reaction, because even the OP has been updated with a lot of detail.

It's very hard not to look at it more as due to the prevalent anti-sex attitudes in American culture caused by you having a much greater proportion of the population be religious, and then people trying to self justify that.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
In Europe (and this is completely anecdotal but still), I think things are different. People seem to just... don't give a fuck I guess?

It could be different in Europe.. but it could also be the phenomenon that media (including internet) =/= everyday experience. Even in America people may feel that these kinds of discussions do not happen around them IRL.

And there is a very strong liberalism/social activism sentiment in Europe too, some of which would make Americans blush, so I think dismissing it as "American" is potentially an incorrect assumption. It's the power of the internet bringing marginalized voices to the fore, not the power of America bringing their odd mainstream sentiments to you.
 
The opposite being that we should not attempt to create a more inclusive attitude during professional hours? Does that sap your faith in humanity?

:x

No,more on the line of how anyone can defend the verge article or the lynch-mob mentality againts the poor guy

and yes...in europe things are different

in the words of the always on the spot stephen fry

offended.jpg
 
Posting that Stephen Fry quote like that is pretty much a tap out

The man himself expresses exasperation at how it's misused

there two parts on this whole issue

i can see the part where mumei or besada talked about the bigger problem on i dont have any problems with these kind of discussion

but the verge article or the thanks asshole...well i have problems with that kind of treatment

and i know that the fry quote can be misused ,in this case? im pretty sure its spot on,we can agree to disagree
 

BGBW

Maturity, bitches.
I'm just glad they didn't call it "shirtgate". The 'gate' suffix has become far too overused recently.
 

Snowman

Member
But at the end of the day, it IS just a shirt. There's no escaping that.

If he was wearing a shirt that said "FUCK GAY PEOPLE", you could still say it's just a shirt. Doesn't mean you can't talk about and criticise the choice of shirt in a larger context.

The thing I see people keep saying is because the shirt was given to him and was made by a woman, there can't be anything wrong. Do these people not realise that women can be sexist against other women too sometimes? Or at least do sexist things or perpetuate sexist ideas? It's frustrating to see it dismissed by some people so easily because of that.
 

kamorra

Fuck Cancer
If he was wearing a shirt that said "FUCK GAY PEOPLE", you could still say it's just a shirt. Doesn't mean you can't talk about and criticise the choice of shirt in a larger context.

"Guys what if the context was... completely different!"
This is the answer you should but won't get. It's the answer I and several others in this thread got after asking very similar questions.
 

jorma

is now taking requests
If he was wearing a shirt that said "FUCK GAY PEOPLE", you could still say it's just a shirt. Doesn't mean you can't talk about and criticise the choice of shirt in a larger context.

The thing I see people keep saying is because the shirt was given to him and was made by a woman, there can't be anything wrong. Do these people not realise that women can be sexist against other women too sometimes? Or at least do sexist things or perpetuate sexist ideas? It's frustrating to see it dismissed by some people so easily because of that.

I don't think this shirt does either of these things. You can say "it's a sexist shirt" all day, but i still wouldn't find it sexist and/or offensive. Him wearing it on TV was perhaps a bit in poor taste, but ultimately not really a big deal.

It's just a shirt, unlike say an obviously homophobic shirt that says "fuck gay people".

And that's probably why you think it's frustrating that people dismiss this so readily. Because you see a shirt that's pretty much the same thing as a shirt that says "FUCK GAY PEOPLE", while other people don't.
 

Ikael

Member
I am frankly quite glad to see that the discussion shifted fast from the guy itself towards the general situation of women in sciences / STEM. Disscussing ideas > discussing people :)

In Europe (and this is completely anecdotal but still), I think things are different. People seem to just... don't give a fuck I guess?

Thing is, far from upholding some kind of universal value, political correction is as anglo-centric concept as it goes. It is "multicultural" in the same way that, say, a "currywurst" is a piece of "multicultural" cuisine. It is a byproduct of multiculturalism (or a reaction to it) but it is a local phenomenom born out from very local, very specific pre-existing national conditions (both German currywurst and Anglo-saxon political correction). The globalization process is just helping it to spread it beyond their original frontiers, as it happens with any other American custom.
 
No,more on the line of how anyone can defend the verge article or the lynch-mob mentality againts the poor guy

and yes...in europe things are different

in the words of the always on the spot stephen fry

offended.jpg

It was only a matter of time. Totally called it.

Please come up with a better response, as people arguing have gone to great lengths to explain what is problematic about the shirt beyond it "offending people".
 

Mindwipe

Member
The thing I see people keep saying is because the shirt was given to him and was made by a woman, there can't be anything wrong. Do these people not realise that women can be sexist against other women too sometimes? Or at least do sexist things or perpetuate sexist ideas? It's frustrating to see it dismissed by some people so easily because of that.

Do the people arguing on the other side not see that it does however suggest that something is an intrinsically sexist idea is not as universally agreed as they would like to pretend it is?
 
You can say "it's a sexist shirt" all day, but i still wouldn't find it sexist and/or offensive.
.

Just because you don't have a problem with it doesn't mean there are not people out there who feel differently.

"I don't have a problem with it therefore the rest of the world should not have a problem with it".

The lack of empathy shown in this thread is saddening. And I'm sad to say I've seen it a lot in other threads too.
 

Snowman

Member
And that's probably why you think it's frustrating that people dismiss this so readily. Because you see a shirt that's pretty much the same thing as a shirt that says "FUCK GAY PEOPLE", while other people don't.

But I actually don't, because the reason why wearing this shirt in this context is troublesome is a lot more subtle, and I know a lot of people wouldn't even think it was a problem until someone explained to them what was up with it. That's why it is important to talk about it, to actually explain why this is a problem to some people, to create that awareness. And that's why the dismissing it as "just a shirt" is missing the point.

Do the people arguing on the other side not see that it does however suggest that something is an intrinsically sexist idea is not as universally agreed as they would like to pretend it is?
But do you even know why they think it's so bad in the first place?
 

wsippel

Banned
For the upteenth time

The shirt is symptomatic of the problems with being inclusive to women in STEM fields. It, specifically, does not produce all of the toxicity and other things that is found to be problematic in the fields. It is the straw that broke the camel's back. It's the drop in the bucket that made it run over.

Wearing a shirt with partially naked space bondage babes is VERY different from a real, living woman choosing to present her self as sexy. One is an object, and the other is a person with agency.
The shirt might be an object, but it was made by a person. A woman in this particular case. With agency, I assume.
 

Mindwipe

Member
Just because you don't have a problem with it doesn't mean there are not people out there who feel differently.

"I don't have a problem with it therefore the rest of the world should not have a problem with it".

Pretty much. It'd be very dangerous to live in a world where things were any different. After all, that would mean a Jehovahs Witness could say we shouldn't publicly discuss blood transfusion.

The lack of empathy shown in this thread is saddening. And I'm sad to say I've seen it a lot in other threads too.

Empathy is broadly irrelevant, because there's not one nice way to make everyone happy and you're having to pick about upsetting at least one group. So you can only do that based on reason and evidence rather than their feelings.
 

Mindwipe

Member
But do you even know why they think it's so bad in the first place?

Yes, I think it's broadly a problem of negative sex associations and/or a clumsy and false theory that people can be "objectified" by fictional portrayals in a way that has harmful effects.

But I'm afraid that doesn't make me agree with them.
 

.GqueB.

Banned
I've been avoiding this thread because I kept reading "shitstorm" and thought some experiment went wrong at NASA and a toilet blew up or something.

"36 pages about a failed experiment?... Surely something else hap... Ohh... Oh."
 

Yrael

Member
It's absolutely no different - it is a completely valid comparison. When we speak above violence in videogames, such as casual assault and not just murder, such underlying unconscious attitudes if they exist would be just as affected about attitudes to violence, and violence would go up as a result. It doesn't.

This is another way of saying that sexism is a special snowflake and we should ignore evidence, because of vague, unprovable cultural crap. It's hiding in the god of gaps in the same way a fundamental religionist does.

It isn't unprovable though, since we can directly measure the effects that subtle racism and sexism have on people. For example, there are many papers on stereotype threat, which is a phenomenon felt by individuals when they're in a situation in which they may confirm a negative stereotype about their group (for instance, women are more likely to perform worse at tests of mathematical reasoning if they are told before taking that men traditionally perform better). More closely related to the current topic, Mumei linked to a description of a study earlier demonstrating how women are turned away by "geek stereotype culture."
 

Jedeye Sniv

Banned
Just because you don't have a problem with it doesn't mean there are not people out there who feel differently.

"I don't have a problem with it therefore the rest of the world should not have a problem with it".

The lack of empathy shown in this thread is saddening. And I'm sad to say I've seen it a lot in other threads too.

It goes both ways though - the people objecting to the shirt are displaying a lack of empathy for the scientist, surely? Seeing him as 'problematic' rather than as a person who likes garish clothes?

"I have a problem with it therefore the rest of the world should have a problem with it".

No. Not only do I not agree, but I think these teacup storms actively hurt the progressive movements.

I've just read this piece by Boris Johnson that sums up my feelings on the issue: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...made-me-cry-too-with-rage-at-his-abusers.html

There must be room in our world for eccentricity, even if it offends the prudes, and room for the vague other-worldliness that often goes with genius. Dr Taylor deserves the applause of our country, and those who bash him should hang their own heads and apologise.

I've not read a single thing in this thread that makes me feel any differently. People are reaching so hard for a reason to agree with the idea this is offensive when it blatantly is not.
 

Irminsul

Member
Please come up with a better response, as people arguing have gone to great lengths to explain what is problematic about the shirt beyond it "offending people".
Two things:

1. Some posts read like the shirt is objectively problematic and/or objectively symbolises "what's wrong with STEM culture" (or something to that effect). The discussion is "still about the shirt" because these two points are what people disagree with; not that there's problems in the STEM field, because that is pretty much agreed upon. I mean, the argument against why this thread is longer than the actual Rosetta thread is that this topic is controversial. Right. So the reason why we're talking more about the shirt than "why women don't get into STEM" is exactly that, because the idea that the shirt is a good or even feasible example for that is controversial.

The problem is that with everyone holding the idea that the shirt is objectively problematic is that…

2. Everyone who disagrees with that – within the logic that the shirt is objectively bad – obviously just "hasn't seen the light" and just needs to think a bit for themselves why the shirt is problematic. Does it really surprise anyone this approach leads to resistance? If you're going in a conversation with the idea that you're objectively right and every part of your argument (i.e., the shirt) is too, then everything that can result from that is lecturing at best and preachy at worst. And some people are really baffled why they're met with resistance? No one likes to be lectured. Why can't someone agree on the fundamental problem without having to agree that singular issues like Taylor's shirt really fit as an example of the fundamental problem?
 

wsippel

Banned
Empathy is broadly irrelevant, because there's not one nice way to make everyone happy and you're having to pick about upsetting at least one group. So you can only do that based on reason and evidence rather than their feelings.
Empathy is never irrelevant, and there actually is a nice, easy way: Just don't be an asshole. It's absolutely possible to discuss this issue in a friendly, constructive and civil manner. Though to do so it's obviously important to realize that there probably won't ever be a complete consensus.
 

CCS

Banned
I understand why people don't like the shirt, but personally I feel more like supporting the man who was harassed and bullied for a poor fashion choice. I don't like how personal a lot of the discussion has been. The shirt may be a sign of the underlying sexism in STEM fields, but I feel like a lot of the reaction has been that this man is somehow sexism embodied.
 

Irminsul

Member
Just because you don't have a problem with it doesn't mean there are not people out there who feel differently.

"I don't have a problem with it therefore the rest of the world should not have a problem with it".
There's more than two extreme approaches to this, you know. Also, there are obviously more criteria than "there are people having a problem with it so it is a problem". There are also people who "feel differently" about LGBT rights, do you think they have valid concerns too? If not, what makes you discard them?
 

jorma

is now taking requests
But I actually don't, because the reason why wearing this shirt in this context is troublesome is a lot more subtle, and I know a lot of people wouldn't even think it was a problem until someone explained to them what was up with it. That's why it is important to talk about it, to actually explain why this is a problem to some people, to create that awareness. And that's why the dismissing it as "just a shirt" is missing the point.


But do you even know why they think it's so bad in the first place?

Well you made the argument they were the same thing, so i just assumed you did :)

I've read some of the posts and heard why they think it problematic. I still don't agree that the female staff on his team were subjects of sexism in the workplace on this day, unlike a "fuck gay people" shirt. Unless, of course, the person wearing it was gay, in which case it would be a funny shirt (that you still probably shouldn't wear on TV).
 

Pie and Beans

Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
The "sexy women shirt perpetuates anti-female science agenda" is on the same jump to conclusions level as "videogames make murderers". Its the exact sort of shallow slacktivism outrage that has been giving plenty of other movements a bad image this generation.

After the current 5-10 year period of "New Internet Feminism" the whole movement is going to need to distance themselves from the radical and immature twitter/tumblr sect, fracturing and rebranding under some new umbrella to actually become serious again and not reactionary PETA level whirlpool of misdirected rage.
 

Arjen

Member
No. Not only do I not agree, but I think these teacup storms actively hurt the progressive movements.

I've just read this piece by Boris Johnson that sums up my feelings on the issue: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...made-me-cry-too-with-rage-at-his-abusers.html

Completly agree, this hurt the cause way more than "raise awareness"
Guess what is happening now after this dude was bullied into an apology, everyone want's to buy that shirt, and most hate the people who started the bullying.
 

Snowman

Member
Well you made the argument they were the same thing, so i just assumed you did :)

I've read some of the posts and heard why they think it problematic. I still don't agree that the female staff on his team were subjects of sexism in the workplace on this day, unlike a "fuck gay people" shirt. Unless, of course, the person wearing it was gay, in which case it would be a funny shirt (that you still probably shouldn't wear on TV).

I didn't say they were the same thing, I made the point that even if it was a really obviously offensive shirt you could still say it's just a shirt. It just makes no sense to dismiss something in that way.
 
The "sexy women shirt perpetuates anti-female science agenda" is on the same jump to conclusions level as "videogames make murderers". Its the exact sort of shallow slacktivism outrage that has been giving plenty of other movements a bad image this generation.

After the current 5-10 year period of "New Internet Feminism" the whole movement is going to need to distance themselves from the radical and immature twitter/tumblr sect, fracturing and rebranding under some new umbrella to actually become serious again and not reactionary PETA level whirlpool of misdirected rage.
Who said it was an agenda?
 

berzeli

Banned
The "sexy women shirt perpetuates anti-female science agenda" is on the same jump to conclusions level as "videogames make murderers". Its the exact sort of shallow slacktivism outrage that has been giving plenty of other movements a bad image this generation.

No it isn't. Mumei covered this very well earlier in the thread.

From what I've read of this thread, this is highly relevant because a lot of people have a very shallow understanding of why this shirt is viewed as problematic. If you don't understand, hopefully this will help you:

It doesn’t require any special sociological training to read the barely veiled message being communicated to these talented and ambitious women: You don’t belong here. We tend to think of this sort of outright sex discrimination as being a thing of the past in Western, industrialized nations. The Sexual Paradox author Susan Pinker, for instance, writes of barriers to women as having been “stripped away.” Her book is peopled with women who, when asked if they’ve ever experienced ill-treatment because of their sex, scratch their heads and search the memory banks in vain for some anecdote that will show how they have had to struggle against the odds stacked against women. As we’ll see in a later chapter, blatant, intentional discrimination against women is far from being something merely to be read about in history books. But here we’re going to look at the subtle, off-putting, you don’t belong messages that churn about in the privacy of one’s own mind.

[…]

What psychological processes lie behind this turning away from masculine interests? One possibility is that, as we learned in an earlier chapter, when stereotypes of women become salient, women tend to incorporate those stereotypical traits into their current self-perception. They may then find it harder to imagine themselves as, say, a mechanical engineer. The belief that one will be able to fit in, to belong, may be more important than we realize - and may help to explain why some traditionally male occupations have been more readily entered by women than others. After all, the stereotype of a vet is not the same as that of an orthopedic surgeon, or a computer scientist, and these are different again from the stereotype of a builder or a lawyer. These different stereotypes may be more or less easily reconciled with a female identity. What, for example, springs to mind when you think of a computer scientist? A man, of course, but not just any man. You’re probably thinking of the sort of man who would not be an asset at a tea party. The sort of man who leaves a trail of soft-drink cans, junk-food wrappers, and tech magazines behind him as he makes his way to the sofa to watch Star Trek for the hundredth time. The sort of man whose pale complexion hints alarmingly of vitamin D deficiency. The sort of man, in short, who is a geek.

Sapna Cheryan, a psychologist at Washington University, was interested in whether the geek image of computer science plays a role in putting off women. When she and her colleagues surveyed undergraduates about their interest in being a computer science major, they found, perhaps unsurprisingly given that computer science is male-dominated, that women were significantly less interested. Less obvious, however, was why they were less interested. Women felt that they were less similar to the typical computer science major. This influenced their sense that they belonged in computer science - again lower in women - and it was this lack of fit that drove their lack of interest in a computer science major.

However, and interest in Star Trek and an antisocial lifestyle may not, in fact, be unassailable correlates of talent in computer programming. Indeed, in its early days, computer programming was a job done principally by women and was regarded as an activity to which feminine talents were particularly well-suited. “Programming requires patience, persistence, and a capacity for detail and those are traits that many girls have” wrote one author of a career guide to computer programming in 1967. Women made many significant contributions to computer science development and, as one expert puts it, “[t]oday’s achievements in software are built on the shoulders of the first pioneering women programmers.” Cheryan suggests that “t was not until the 1980s that individual heroes in computer science, such as Bill Gates and Steve Jobs came to the scene, and the term ‘geek’ became associated with being technically minded. Movies such as Revenge of the Nerds and Real Genius, released during those years, crystallized the image of the ‘computer geek’ in the cultural consciousness.

If it is the geeky stereotype that is so off-putting to women, then a little repackaging of the field might be an effective way of drawing more women in. Cheryan and her colleagues tested this very idea. They recruited undergraduates to participate in “a study by the Career Development Center regarding interest in technical jobs and internships.” The students filled out a questionnaire about their interest in computer science in a small classroom within the William Gates building (which, as you will have guessed, houses the computer science department). The room, however, was set up in one of two ways for the unsuspecting participant. In one condition, the décor was what we might call geek chic: a Star Trek poster, geeky comics, video game boxes, junk food, electronic equipment, and technical books and magazines. The second arrangement was substantially less geeky: the poster was an art one, water bottles replaced the junk food, the magazines were general interest, and the computer books were aimed at a more general level. In the geeky room, men considered themselves significantly more interested in computer science than did women. But when the geek factor was removed from the surroundings, women showed equal interest to men. It seemed that a greater sense of belonging brought about this positive change. Simply by altering the décor, Cher-yan and colleagues were also able to increase women’s interest in, for example, joining a hypothetical Web-design company. The researchers note “the power of environments to signal to people whether or not they should enter a domain,” and suggest that changing the computer environment “can therefore inspire those who previously had little or not interest . . . to express a newfound interest in it."


That is the problem with that shirt: It sends the same sort of exclusionary message to women as the geeky décor does.


And as follow-up to arguments I've seen since that this post: These aren't mutually exclusive issues. Yes, environmental factors can send the message to women that they aren't a good fit for a career and discourage them from joining. Yes, the problem of stereotype threat can work to diminish women's performance in stereotypically masculine fields (the same is true of stereotypically feminine fields (or skills) and men, though this is generally less of a focus because those jobs tend to be lower prestige and lower (or not at all) paid less). Yes, overt discrimination still exists and is a problem. Yes, it is true that gender roles and biological factors work together so that there are careers in which women have to give up having children in order to pursue them, because women actually have to bear children and it is the expectation that women sacrifice their careers for the sake of their children (and oftentimes this is the best decision from a purely financial perspective because women are paid less in the first place). Yes, all of these things work together to lower the representation of women in certain fields, like some STEM fields.

But the shirt's still a problem. It's like a writ small version of the environmental factors. You might think that the shirt is jsut cheesecake, and that anyone "offended" by it should get over it. But we're not talking about "offense." We're talking about the internalized understanding that the shirt says, "You wouldn't be welcome here." And sure, it's only one guy, wearing one shirt, on one occasion. But what does it say about the ESA that evidently no one thought to say, "Matt, that's really not a good idea to wear that"? To me, it suggests that no one thought it was enough of an issue to say something about, and I'm sure most women are smart enough to see that subtext and what it says about the larger culture.

Does this mean that no women will be interested? No; as Cheryan's study said, they still had interested women even in the geeky décor room. But it did negatively impact how many women were interested, and incidents like this can send the same sort of exclusionary messages.

After the current 5-10 year period of "New Internet Feminism" the whole movement is going to need to distance themselves from the radical and immature twitter/tumblr sect, fracturing and rebranding under some new umbrella to actually become serious again and not reactionary PETA level whirlpool of misdirected rage.

Why are you pretending that this is about feminists? The initial criticism was sparked during the live feed of the Rosetta mission. The criticism was from people with a vested interest in tech/STEM.
 

jorma

is now taking requests
The room, however, was set up in one of two ways for the unsuspecting participant. In one condition, the décor was what we might call geek chic: a Star Trek poster, geeky comics, video game boxes, junk food, electronic equipment, and technical books and magazines. The second arrangement was substantially less geeky: the poster was an art one, water bottles replaced the junk food, the magazines were general interest, and the computer books were aimed at a more general level. In the geeky room, men considered themselves significantly more interested in computer science than did women. But when the geek factor was removed from the surroundings, women showed equal interest to men.
So the shirt is problematic in the same way a star-trek or Dilbert themed shirt would be problematic, rather than in a "fuck the gays" kind of problematic?
 

berzeli

Banned
So the shirt is problematic in the same way a star-trek or Dilbert themed shirt would be problematic, rather than in a "fuck the gays" kind of problematic?

You can't see the forest for the trees.

There are several layers to this: The imagery on the shirt and whether this constitutes sexual objectification and how does that affect people. The imagery on his shirt and the exclusionary message that it may send to women seeking out STEM fields. The imagery on his shirt and its appropriateness in a professional setting.
 

Pie and Beans

Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
I just disagree on a core level that the shirt equals "You wouldn't be welcome here." The argument that the individual needs to not actually like things or display that in their place of work, that they instead project some theoretically neutral image 24/7 is so preposterous its hard to actually acknowledge that frame of thinking.

Not often I agree with Boris Johnson, but he's bang on with "There must be room in our world for eccentricity, even if it offends the prudes, and room for the vague other-worldliness that often goes with genius." The standard that countless internet warriors try to hold others to is one they themselves would undoubtedly fail because it comes from a total place of unreality.

What these same reactionary sects fail to realise is every time they mire their movement or message with an attack force/negative association, they chip away at its position. The correct way forward is positive reinforcement of women in STEM and so on, giving that tons more press, not raking a guy in a garish shirt over the coals for a month because "its symbolic". Shaming people will just create a well of anger and push-back each and every single time. "GAMERS ARE OVER" was a poignant recent example of that boiled down to its core.
 

Stet

Banned
Suffice it to say that regardless of what was felt before "shirt storm" it's obvious that anyone who found the shirt offensive and brought it up would feel unwelcome among a team.
 

wsippel

Banned
No it isn't. Mumei covered this very well earlier in the thread.

Why are you pretending that this is about feminists? The initial criticism was sparked during the live feed of the Rosetta mission. The criticism was from people with a vested interest in tech/STEM.
But the whole basis of this discussion is questionable, considering 30-40% of STEM graduates are female. STEM, contrary to popular opinion, is no boys club. Certain fields within STEM are, but even then, the quoted article doesn't explain those. Because mechatronics is one such area, and it doesn't really have a geeky image. Biotechnology on the other hand is pretty geeky - and pretty much a girls club. If there actually is an "geeky exclusionary message" as Mumei assumes, it doesn't appear to be very effective at keeping girls out.

Another interesting fact in light of the article Mumei quoted is that while there are indeed few women in pure CS, things look quite different in interdisciplinary CS.
 

Aurongel

Member
Isn't it a little - I don't know... Contradictory to be verbally abusing someone on Twitter in the name of political correctness?
 

berzeli

Banned
But the whole basis of this discussion is questionable, considering 30-40% of STEM graduates are female. STEM, contrary to popular opinion, is no boys club. Certain fields within STEM are, but even then, the quoted article doesn't explain those. Because mechatronic is one such area, and it doesn't really have a geeky image. Biotechnology on the other hand is pretty geeky - and pretty much a girls club. If there actually is an "geeky exclusionary message" as Mumei assumes, it doesn't appear to be very effective.

And less than 25% of women hold STEM jobs. That should be a terrifying statistic, that means that there is something about STEM that despite women seeking it out and studying it they then choose to look elsewhere for employment.

I've post these before but they seem to get ignored:

"women are underrepresented both in STEM jobs and STEM undergraduate degrees and have been consistently over the last decade ... Women who do receive STEM degrees are less likely to work in STEM jobs"

"Furthermore, the attitudes and customs of current STEM practitioners also play a key role in a newcomer's persistence in a STEM major ... In addition, recent studies, like one published last month in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, have demonstrated that there is still bias among both male and female scientists against female students. ... I am often saddened and occasionally infuriated by the experiences of these extraordinary women, who have faced obstacles, subtle and overt, in their pursuit of science and math education."

"In particular, female and minority students are less likely to enter college intending to major in a STEM field major, but if they do so, are more likely to switch away from a STEM major. ... Results show that student experiences during college in STEM field departments can have an important impact on their decision to continue in a STEM major. ... There is some evidence that role models could play a part in the college major choice decision. ... The results in this paper show that the environment of the institution and the STEM field departments can have strong impacts on the major choice of students showing an interest in a STEM major"
 
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