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Terror attack kills 12 at Paris newspaper - 4 wounded, gunmen identified

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M

Maxim726X

Member
MHWilliams said:
I'm unsure how you get from this:



To this:



One can say "hey, I don't like you making fun of the thing I believe in" without also saying "you deserve to die for making fun of the thing I believe."



Once again, people believe that because they haven't heard about the condemnation within this media bubble, that it doesn't exist.

Odd way to look at the world.
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I don't understand your point. I'm referring to poll data (the poll which Maher and Harris referred to) which presents data that would indicate the majority of Muslims believe that leaving the religion should be met with death. I don't have exact statistics on how those who portray Mohammed should be treated, but the point still remains.

People still talk about things like this like a minority of the faith condemn them. According to data, that simply isn't the case. If half a billion people believe what happened here is justified (and again, I don't have the data so I can't say for certain) it's not the right place for the 'a few bad apples' defense.
 
F

Fenderputty

Banned
I'm always very torn on these types of things because I'm a secular person and think negatively about all three of the major religions. It might not be the cause of the violence but it sure is used as a tool to spark it often enough. This includes homophobia, sexism, terrorism etc etc. Religion is about interpretation of ancient texts and because of that it will occasionally be twisted to fit an agenda.

Maninthemirror is constantly defending Islam because of the above. His interpenetration and that of many Muslims is that Islam is the religion of peace. And it very well might be. But there are other much much worse interpretations of the same book and there always will be. It's the reasons Christians have so many denominations. Nobody can fully agree on what the text actually means and it gets soured.

That being said, there's far more sane religious folk than insane and it's not fair to generalize an entire group of people because of the actions of a few. I'm of the belief that tribalism is the main factor along with some feeling of dissatisfaction in life and disenfranchisement from the world.

It looks like they're going to find these assholes and that's awesome. My condolences to those who lost something here.

Stand tall!
 
M

Maninthemirror

Banned
gutter_trash said:
In the Western world, we can openly make fun of our faith(s) and question the church, be critical towards the Vatican and ask justice to be enacted when a priest commits a crime.

Can the Muslim world do the same towards their clerics and religious leaders? hmmmm hmmmm
Click to expand...

follow Pakistani media and social media, you will see the same mocking of religious leaders and clerics who are corrupt but not religion itself.
 
-duskdoll-

-duskdoll-

Member
DrForester said:
Z5ViNcu.png
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Fuck this made me tear up
 
Y

You Are Viewtiful

Member
DrForester said:
Some of these comics...

"Draw Mohamed" day was a great thing, telling these people to fuck off and deal with the fact that people will insult them in a non-violent way.
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It was nice in theory, the execution though... did more harm than good. A lot of the pictures were tasteless - it ended up being an outlet for Neo-Nazis than a free speech demonstration. Is it surprising the "secular left" does not want to associate with that?
 
G

GameGuru59

Banned
It really bothers me that people on this board (and throughout society in general) dismiss people because they don't agree with one thing they said, or one view they might hold. Just because you disagree with a person about one thing, doesn't mean they're wrong about everything.
 
K

kmax

Member
Apparently, the older brother's got quite the rap sheet, as he's been arrested for terrorist charges before, so he should be well known to authorities.
 
F

FartOfWar

Banned
LNBL said:
That tweet is bullshit. I don't like jokes being made about any religion in the world, just as I don't like jokes being made about sickness or wars. To have to openly and strongly endorse something just in the hope of people like Maher believing i'm a normal human being like the rest is ridiculous.
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Your post is bullshit. He's not saying you have to endorse the jokes, only the right of others to make them. At least if you'd like to be called moderate anything.
 
K

Kraftwerk

Member
"As a Muslim I condemn this attack......now excuse me while I go campaign for the implementation of shariah law in Europe"

Met way too many Muslims in Europe that have that mindset.
 
C

commedieu

Banned
GameGuru59 said:
I'm pretty sure Maher would be pretty upset about that too. Of course, it's not at the front of our minds because its not affecting us directly. Moreover, if the African countries that was occurring in had the same constitutional rights and media infrastructure we have, I'm sure their people would be saying the same things we are about the problems within the Islamic religion.
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Well, I haven't seen Maher say anything about it. And since I don't see it, going by the logic of Maher, he doesn't care at all.

Its one thing to be educated about the subject, and its one thing to take shots. Maher takes shots in ignorance for viewers/hits. We can be sure of just one thing, that making comments in ignorance, based on your own feelings without even looking to the outside world, is absurd. When you try to make Islam into some pre-human construct, you arrive at a problem when Christians are doing the same shit in different places that no one gives a shit about.

The extremists are the problem, in all religions. Not the religions themselves. All religions are basically the same story, with caveats from god knows where added into them. Islam didn't destory the world, into what we know it as today. Imperialism and the search for oil did. What has killed more people? Well, you know the answer to that. I understand that people have anti-islam/muslim sentiments. But they are being driven by political forces that don't want to acknowledge the double standards. Islam is such a great foe, yet Saudi Arabia is our best friend in the world, ever. What they do, which is grounds for war in other nations, is perfectly ok. Fuck that noise. And fuck a system that is trying to target islam in a contradictory way. There is no productive end in sight to the idea that Islam is errrm, bad.
 
I

Interceptor

Banned
commedieu said:
Is that you Bill? Surely, you can't appreciate that Islam is practiced without violence. But, this isn't the avenue for peace. The extremists are the problem, not the religion. As any religion can be used for evil, if you just read up enough. Especially Christians.
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Would me being Bill change any of the facts? No.
Every text can be used for evil if you "interprete" it enough. Even a manual for your vacuum cleaner. Does it make the manual the same as the bible? Because both have words and shit? Basically all the same hm? No. Its much easier to justify killing people out of the bible than out of a vacuum manual, And its much easier to justify killing people out of the Quran than the bible. Read both. Hilarious stuff.
The big difference is the bible is up for interpretation. The Quran is not.
Theres a difference in believing in a wine making hippie and then abuse this faith to gain power or believing in a holy warlord doing holy warlord stuff.

Sometimes not everything is the same.
 
M

Miles Quaritch

Member
Kraftwerk said:
"As a Muslim I condemn this attack......now excuse me while I go campaign for the implementation of shariah law in Europe"

Met way too many Muslims in Europe that have that mindset.
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I've not heard of any Muslims openly campaigning for the implementation of Sharia law in Europe.

Do you happen to have any sources?
 
X

xbhaskarx

Member
You Are Viewtiful said:
Who did that?? If anyone said that, it was a small minority. It was "Draw Muhammed Day" that people were against, there was really no point in that and it actually hurt the standing of free speech and other Western ideals in the Islamic world.
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1. There absolutely was a point.

2. That's the problem isn't it.

DrForester said:
"Draw Mohamed" day was a great thing, telling these people to fuck off and deal with the fact that people will insult them in a non-violent way.
Click to expand...

Yes it was. Unfortunately I think even the thread on GAF got closed...
 
P

perkyz

Member
nynt9 said:
Why do Italians/Brits/etc protest? It has fuck all to do with them but they protest it.
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Because all countries are having trouble with extremists. The offenders were apparently people who went to fight in Syria. The same thing could have happened in London or Bruxelles...
 
V

Valhelm

contribute something
Fairfax said:
Killing people who mock Islam is as old as the religion itself. Muhammad himself ordered the killings of several poets who mocked/spoke out against him.
These terrorists are no different than their own "prophet".
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Well yeah. But that just furthers my opinion that the problem is not Islam, but Islamic Fundamentalism.

Wahhabism, not Islam, is the catalyst for these attacks. Andalusian sultans and emirs never terrorized the French for religious reasons. When Franks and Moors did go to war, it was always for profit and power.
 
M

MacNille

Banned
CheDominik said:
If true great work by the french authorities to find them that quickly. Can't imagine how much of an effort it took, unless the terrorists weren't as well prepared as they acted on scene.
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the thing about terriorst is that most of them are fucking idiots. They may plan for the deed, but they don't think two steeps ahead.
 
L

LNBL

Member
Maxim726X said:
Relatively sure you're confused.

He's not making a joke. He's saying that simply saying 'we're against the slaughter of innocent people' isn't really enough.

He wants to see people saying 'Though we may not agree with it, we recognize your right to draw/paint/satirize the prophet in any way you see fit, and if you are to do this you should not lose your life over it'.
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Ofcourse and that is 100% true. Though the whole definition of someone being qualified as a moderate muslim is something I do not like and to have to go beyond just showing compassion by saying that they reject these attacks in order to satisfy people like Maher was my point. It's as though it would not be normal for a muslim to recognize the right of anyone to write and say what ever they want, instead they have to explicitly mention it.

Atleast that's the way I experience it.
 
M

MikeyB

Member
GameGuru59 said:
It really bothers me that people on this board (and throughout society in general) dismiss people because they don't agree with one thing they said, or one view they might hold. Just because you disagree with a person about one thing, doesn't mean they're wrong about everything.
Click to expand...

It depends. If the thing I disagree with is how they justify their beliefs, then I can reasonably discount everything they believe, even if their beliefs are occasionally true. It's just like if I asked a squirrel who I'd marry and they ran towards someone that I eventually do marry. The squirrel happened to be right, but it's not like they actually knew it, and that doesn't give me any reason to consult Mr. Fluffytails further.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
Fenderputty said:
And your Christian God didn't do and order some fucked up shit? You're a joke.
Click to expand...

Are you trying to turn this into a religious war or something? I don't see him defending or even talking about Christianity.

His is a rebuttal to those denying there's nothing inherent in Islam that could possibly lead to inspiring such attacks as those that just happened.
 
RoadHazard

RoadHazard

Gold Member
Maninthemirror said:
If you dont want to side with the moderate argument and proofs with context that their interpretation is logically correct, at least which interpretation of the two would you rather have in place?
Click to expand...

Obviously I would side with the non-violent majority. But what does that matter in this context? The question wasn't which interpretation is "nicest", but which one is more accurate. Those are two completely separate issues; one says nothing about the trueness of the other.
 
R

RustyNails

Member
Marauder Shields said:
That's quite troubling tbh.
Click to expand...
It's not.

For example, Uqba bin Abu Bayt was ordered to be killed after this happened:
I asked 'Abdullah bin 'Amr bin Al-'As to inform me of the worst thing the pagans had done to Allah's Apostle. He said: "While Allah's Apostle was praying in the courtyard of the ka'ba, 'Uqba bin Abi Mu'ait came and seized Allah's Apostle by the shoulder and twisted his garment round his neck and throttled him severely. Abu Bakr came and seized 'Uqba's shoulder and threw him away from Allah's Apostle and said, "Would you kill a man because he says: 'My Lord is Allah,' and has come to you with clear Signs from your Lord?
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Nadir ibn Al Harith was the member of the Meccan Army that fought Medinans in Battle of Badr. Out of 72 captives taken from that battle, 2 were executed. One of them being Nadir. Few of those instances are extremely weak narrations or outright forgeries.
 
F

Fenderputty

Banned
Trouble said:
That changes what exactly? He wasn't making the argument that Christianity is great.
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You don't know the poster then.

Zefah said:
Are you trying to turn this into a religious war or something? I don't see him defending or even talking about Christianity.

His is a rebuttal to those denying there's nothing inherent in Islam that could possibly lead to inspiring such attacks as those that just happened.
Click to expand...

Look at his post history. His motives are clear.
 
T

Trey

Member
Angry Fork said:
It's ok to disregard backward ideologies that have been proven wrong.
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You don't have to believe it yourself, but I don't think disregarding the entity that billions of people hold dear and self identify with is something that should be encouraged.

Just on a communication level, empathizing with people that follow a religion has similar value as empathizing with any other person.
 
T

TedNindo

Member
Miles Quaritch said:
I've not heard of any Muslims openly campaigning for the implementation of Sharia law in Europe.

Do you happen to have any sources?
Click to expand...

There are many examples actually. Mostly extremists of course. But they do get support and some communities are pro having their own rules within it.

That's what you get with the formation of large ghetto's that are pretty much oblivious towards the country around them because of the lack integration.
 
C

commedieu

Banned
Interceptor said:
Would me being Bill change any of the facts? No.
Every text can be used for evil if you "interprete" it enough. Even a manual for your vacuum cleaner. Does it make the manual the same as the bible? Because both have words and shit? Basically all the same hm? No. Its much easier to justify killing people out of the bible than out of a vacuum manual, And its much easier to justify killing people out of the Quran than the bible. Read both. Hilarious stuff.
The big difference is the bible is up for interpretation. The Quran is not.
Theres a difference in believing in a wine making hippie and then abuse this faith to gain power or believing in a holy warlord doing holy warlord stuff.

Sometimes not everything is the same.
Click to expand...

There aren't any facts to promote an idea that Islam is bad, in any way that Christianity or various other religions aren't bad. We are talking about, books and information passed down through 1000's of years.

Peace loving people, value the Quran. To think otherwise is to ignore that the bible has very specific rules set by King James, that are openly ignored today. Or, gnostic gospels that have been ignored. There is no difference, if there was, Saudi Arabia would be a crater. We are being pulled into a direction by our government to make Islam and the Quran a bad guy when it meets the interests of the Arms Dealers and politicians of this nation.

I'm not playing that game. As I know full well muslims are a people of peace and love, just as christians are. And hell, just as everyone is. The bible is up for interpretation, Nope. Some facets of christianity take it 100% literally. Thus, the "we didn't come from monkeys, period!" movement. This isn't a case about making Islam bad. Its an understanding that Islam is a mirror of christianity, and religion in general. The same bullshit excuses we make for NOT stoning a woman for adultery, is the same excuse someone uses to not follow the Quran to the T and dotted i. You're getting played into thinking there is a difference. There is no official rule book that religions abide by, any religion. Its all up to whatever the environment will allow.

I believe in aliens/spirituality and shit. But even I have the ability to know that its a crucial double standard that is being applied for political reasons. You can't condemn Islam without condemning the idea of religion as a whole. Imo.
 
M

Mononoke

Banned
Fenderputty said:
And your Christian God didn't do and order some fucked up shit? You're a joke.
Click to expand...

Christianity certainly is responsible for some of the worst violence in human history. But the world has also changed and we are living in a more modern society. For all the issues of Christianity in the past, it's done a decent job evolving and adapting within a modern society. There are still plenty of terrible people and things inspired by the religion, but it's not what it was in the past.

I'm not sure bringing up the past to compare is the most helpful thing. Unless we are trying to understand why one religion was able to adapt and the other is still having trouble.

As I said in another post, the New Testament and Jesus is kind of like a retcon of the entire bible and is pretty adaptable to a modern society. A lot of the barbaric things in the bible were over turned by this. Or made obsolete. Does Islam have something similar? Ie. A set of rules that override a lot of the practices that were specific to that era? I see so much of the bibles terrible practices as a reflection of the time it was written in. And Jesus and the New Testament as kind of laying groundwork for the religion to move on past the era and be adaptable for the world in the future.
 
X

xbhaskarx

Member
Fenderputty said:
Fairfax said:
Killing people who mock Islam is as old as the religion itself. Muhammad himself ordered the killings of several poets who mocked/spoke out against him.
These terrorists are no different than their own "prophet".
Click to expand...

And your Christian God didn't do and order some fucked up shit? You're a joke.
Click to expand...

Where in his comment was he defending Christianity or any other religion?
What a bizarre and yet totally unsurprising response...

In threads about fucked up shit connected to Christianity (Catholic priests molesting kids, Fred Phelps and his nutjob followers, etc.) do people get defensive and respond with "But that about Islam??" Because that would make as much sense.

If you're looking to divert attention from the problems plaguing Islam, what about Navajo shamans or Shintoism or some witch doctor in the fucking Congo?
 
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