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[jhmtehgamr20xx]

Yep.

How can they consider a physical body to be attractive or innocuous when it is assumed to be cissexual, then suddenly find it to be horrific or threatening upon the discovery that it is transsexual. And if such dramatically different responses can be elicited by the same human being under different circumstances, doesn't that indicate that the real difference resides in the cissexual mind and not in the transsexual body?​

I think it's because they honestly feel, deep down, they're still having sex with someone who's a man. If not physically, then mentally.

Neverminding the fact the science is there to disprove it, because hormonal treatments are a hell of a thing. By that point however the individual has to figure why they feel they're still being intimate with a man (or in the case the person with doubt's a woman, a female) when they can see with their own eyes that the person in front of them appears as the opposite sex, and identifies with the opposite sex.

 

[Mumei]

In any topic about a minority group, there will be people from the majority who are going to have attitudes that are ignorant and offensive to people in the minority, and those same beliefs are likely to be normative within the majority. This is especially true in threads about transgender people, where misinformation and ignorance about trans people is especially deep. If you say something like, "If that is being bigoted, then sue me," you should be prepared to hear the answer to that, and then not complain that it is, "thrown around like it's going out of style." You asked, and it was answered.

The end result of this discussion is not going to be, "Oh, you're right. What you said wasn't bigoted." The question is simply whether hearing that is an impetus to defensiveness or self-examination.

Taking such things to these extremes is pointless, you are effectively moving to the point of arguing that a heterosexual man is therefore bigoted for dismissing gay sex as an option for himself, I mean there's no effective difference between the sexes right?

No, I'm not. What makes a man attractive to me is not simply what genitalia he has, but the whole suite of secondary sexual characteristics associated with the male body. This is why I am not attracted to women, but I do think that trans men are attractive - even (perhaps especially, for reasons I've explained earlier in the thread) ones who haven't yet had bottom surgery. If I were attracted to a man when I thought he was cissexual, and wasn't attracted to him when I thought he was transsexual, that would be the close equivalent (though not quite identical, for reasons I've also explained earlier).

And jhmtehgamr20xx, I agree. She makes the same point later in that paragraph when she says, "Gender-anxious cissexuals must begin to admit that the issues they have with our transsexual bodies stem directly from their own insecurities, from their own fear of having their own genders and sexualities brought into question."

 

[Erin S Kittens]

Right, because the trans woman's surgery was to change the physical characteristics of the parts of the body I'm attracted to. The appendix comment makes no sense, because I'm not attracted to the appendix in the first place, so why would I care what surgery needed to be done to it and why would that factor into my attraction to them?

Creepily worded. As an aside, how many trans women do you think want and get any surgeries?

 

[Izuna]

Okay, the general dialogue here is getting on my nerves.

1. There are people coming in, saying they like women, but wouldn't date a trans woman even if they did look the same.

2. They are being called bigots, assholes, transphobic etc. and generally ignorant for seeing a difference between the two.

3. So (in this thread) they are saying they are not assholes, they have their own preferences that's all.

4. In return, they are told they don't really respect trans people and are oppressing them. Because with the way things are, if someone identifies as female, they are female, and if their body appears the same there is absolutely no difference.

5. So they just say, it doesn't matter. They aren't women women.

------

Honestly there is no other way this thread would go. Either one side caves in or somehow, people's preferences change as they are told whatever they feel isn't a legitimate feeling, it's just bigotry borne of ignorance.

I understand trans women do not want to hear that they are not totally women, but the point is, not everyone defines a woman the same way. Not everyone takes gender identity to be the qualifier, to some, a really feminine looking XY is a feminine looking boy, and they have no problems with calling them girls. It is not simply oppression to have a difference of opinion on its own.

No one here on the side of not wanted to date trans women are saying they would disapprove of men who do, or consider them to actually be gay, or refuse to call them women. That is not happening. They are simply saying, that cis women and trans women are exactly that, cis women and trans women.

The actual argument is whether or not they would like to date them. This is up to them and to suggest that they HAVE to equally be attracted to trans women is the only ignorance I see frequently in this thread. To hold their own decisions hostage and to say that they are just flat out wrong in their feelings.

Why? Because others used to feel like they did but were enlightened? That they are trans women and hearing straight men, even if they liked them, would no longer date them if they knew they were trans? It's not oppression. People have their reservations and they are free to do so. If someone choosing not to date someone based on their diet or something, apparently equally small, it makes them less open but that's all it does.

The opinion that trans women need not mention that they are, when it is surgery and hormone pills that give them the look as if they are cis women, do not need to tell their partners they went through a sex change is in itself, just as terrible as if someone went around and made extra effort to say to every women they were with "I hope you're not trans"

This thread topic exists. Maybe it shouldn't. It is asking if people would date trans women and the tens of people who posted saying they wouldn't apparently represent the big issue. They are merely answering the thread topic, and most are actually doing their best to explain why without saying ANYTHING attacking like "they are nasty or wrong". The only kind of attack is ironically from the other side, saying they are horrible human beings.

It's far removed, but the same point, that if I made a thread asking how many people would like to date myself -- and attacked every homosexual male or heterosexual female for saying I am not their preference, it would be ridiculous.

There have been many who have turned say that their reasoning is either that they want cis women specifically or have kids. Regardless, you can't say a trans woman is a cis woman. Asking why and not accepting any answer is ridiculous. I also don't think trans women make the transitions because they specifically want to date straight men, they do it for a reason far removed from sexual activity.

The general reaction, if I may say, should be "oh well". I am fully aware that hearing people's preference being cis woman over trans woman, regardless if they looked the same, is hurtful and makes them feel like society can't accept them as women, but if the only reasoning for people to have that preference in the first place is that they are bigots, then they're not worth dating anyway right? That while they may say they wouldn't date a trans women, but actually seeing one they find attractive would change their mind, then that's the way it will be.

So the only real poison here is the existence of this thread. People are not going to lie about their preferences. They can refuse to comment if they won't want to rile people up, but they have.

What we all know is that this opinion isn't shared by 100% lf men and none of them are trying to convince anyone that it's wrong to date trans women and see no difference.

However hearing both sides of the argument, or more importantly, opinions that are not my own have been interesting. I have done a great deal of imagining how I would react if I found out my partner was trans. We spoke about if she found out herself. I personally wouldn't give a shit if I didn't want kids so bad, but only if I had known before our first encounter. I also imagined if she was somehow trans against her knowledge. I would feel no different (though shocked and angry at her parents tbh). She would still be who she is.

EDIT: Actually no. If her trans included changing of what she was born with I wouldn't be able to love her the way I do, celebrating her naturalness. I understand that's not a reason that matters to everyone, but if she had any unnecessary surgery for the sake of appearances that would turn me off. I am turned off by makeup so meh.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

I think it's because they honestly feel, deep down, they're still having sex with someone who's a man. If not physically, then mentally.

Neverminding the fact the science is there to disprove it, because hormonal treatments are a hell of a thing. By that point however the individual has to figure why they feel they're still being intimate with a man (or in the case the person with doubt's a woman, a female) when they can see with their own eyes that the person in front of them appears as the opposite sex, and identifies with the opposite sex.

Well, SRS and hormone treatments are not perfect. I do believe that you can find differences, physiologically, between ciswomen and transwomen.

 

[RDreamer]

Uhh...

"And no, I'm not comparing food to the complexities of gender identity."

This kind of feels like an "I'm not racist but.." sort of thing.

 

[Faustek]

Sure, and when science gets to a point where it can truly make that change, that will be a wonderful thing.

We are not there yet though.

I assume we're at an impasse where you define being a certain gender would require that they be able to sire/bear a child. I do not share that view.

I am all for people feeling more comfortable that is not an issue with me, if someone was born a male and the feel that they were born into the wrong body that is perfectly fine. My problem is with dishonesty and playing around with semantics.

Got it.

Respected, yes. Have others attracted to and be interested in romantic relationships with them? No.

No one deserves to be loved romantically. We all need to bring something to the table. No one is entitled to romantic love. There's always a self interested aspect that attracts two people to each other.

If I sit at home every weekend for the rest of my life and never put myself out there I do not deserve a relationship.

Ok if I change my wording to say that everyone who tries deserves to find love. And yes, of course you have to bring something to the table. You can't be sitting still without socialising and whine about not finding anyone for you. Be Proactive and you'll find someone. At least I think everyone deserves to be with someone.


I sound like a fricken hippy but hey, if we were all a bit like them I do believe the world would be a better place.

 

[collige]

Right, because the trans woman's surgery was to change the physical characteristics of the parts of the body I'm attracted to. The appendix comment makes no sense, because I'm not attracted to the appendix in the first place, so why would I care what surgery needed to be done to it and why would that factor into my attraction to them?

The assumption here is that the vagina post-surgery is something you find physically attractive. What I'm trying to find out is why you find the idea that surgery was done so repulsive. If someone says "man the pussy game was the best ever and her body was perfect, but I can't get over the idea that she had surgery", that's not a problem with the body, that's a problem with your perception.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Creepily worded. As an aside, how many trans women do you think want and get any surgeries?

Why should I humor your questions when you were so rude towards me?

 

[Amory]

All for the trans-rights movement, and fully support trans-people's right to find happiness and peace with who they are. Wouldn't knowingly date a trans person, though. I'm not interested in a relationship with a person who used to be a man, or used to be trapped in a man's body, or however it's supposed to be phrased. That's MY choice and MY preference.

People who are calling others bigots for feeling that way seem to want to take away our choice of who we're morally allowed to be attracted to or not attracted to. And that's hypocritical.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Well, no. I'm not making that distinction. I'm arguing that if I showed you a picture of a woman in a state of undress, you said that you would like to have sex with her, and then when you found out that she was transgender, you lost your interest, that would be bigoted. I'm arguing that if you had sex with a woman, and you were attracted to her and enjoyed it when you thought she was cissexual, and then felt disgusted / disturbed / betrayed / deceived when you learned that she was transsexual, that's bigoted.



Right? I mean, the only difference is that in one the modification happened in utero and in the other it happened surgically. And there's way too much sturm und drang over this distinction.



To be fair, I don't think we're talking about the rights of any particular individual, but about abstractions (a hypothetical woman who you would find attractive if she were presented to you as cissexual and unattractive if she were presented to you as transsexual) and classes of people.

Why is it bigoted for a straight man to be repulsed at the idea of having sex with someone who was born a genetic male/with a penis? I see no bigotry there. I don't want to have sex or a relationship with a person who was once a man physically before having surgery and taking hormones. One can hold that position while being perfectly fine with trans people having the same rights and freedoms as everyone else.

You could also show me a picture of a woman in undress and later tell me she's related to me. I'd have a similar reaction in terms of not wanting to have sex or see her naked.

 

[Zoe]

Creepily worded. As an aside, how many trans women do you think want and get any surgeries?

Why would a heterosexual male want a sexual relationship with a trans woman who hasn't had any surgeries?

Is that not what this thread is about?

 

[CloverCarr]

You could also show me a picture of a woman in undress and later tell me she's related to me. I'd have a similar reaction in terms of not wanting to have sex or see her naked.

Sounds like classic sissexism. Or maybe sisphobia. Either way, problematic.

 

[collige]

That they are trans women and hearing straight men, even if they liked them, would no longer date them if they knew they were trans? It's not oppression. People have their reservations and they are free to do so. If someone choosing not to date someone based on their diet or something, apparently equally small, it makes them less open but that's all it does.

Sure they're free to do so, but we're also free to call their reasoning fucked up.

 

[Erin S Kittens]

Why would a heterosexual male want a sexual relationship with a trans woman who hasn't had any surgeries?

Is that not what this thread is about?

The OP doesn't specify (heterosexual or otherwise) men, but it's cissexist privilege to assume that's what it's about.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

The assumption here is that the vagina post-surgery is something you find physically attractive. What I'm trying to find out is why you find the idea that surgery was done so repulsive. If someone says "man the pussy game was the best ever and her body was perfect, but I can't get over the idea that she had surgery", that's not a problem with the body, that's a problem with your perception.

Perception of a person is a perfectly valid reason to be unattracted to them. It factors into many, if not all relationships. I don't see what's bigoted about the fact that I'm not attracted to the idea that the vagina I had sex with was previously not a vagina. It's not taking anyone's rights away, and it's not being intolerant of them. It's just not wanting to be in a physical relationship with them, which is something they never had a right to in the first place.

 

[kmax]

This is obviously a sensitive topic, but it's still sad to see people show so much hostility towards one another in this thread. There's no reason to call each other nasty things. I know that it can get heated, but we're all humans that are trying to understand each other and explain who we are and what we feel.

I must admit that I am very clueless when it comes to this topic, simply because it's not something I've dealt with on a personal level. As a straight, white man, I didn't even know what a Cisgender was before this thread. I'm learning the ropes though, and this discussion has definitely been a fascinating read.

Anyway, I'll try to explain what I believe and what I feel. We all know what we're comfortable with, and are able to apply those things into our lives, but many are going to be pretty adamant about stepping out of their comfort zone, especially when it comes to something as intimate as their own sexuality. We all have a defined sexuality that is very much individual, and can be very different from one another. If a person is attracted to certain people or other things, then they can only be defined based on that fact alone. It doesn't make them prejudiced or bigoted. It certainly could, but then you'd have to take other things into consideration before passing judgement. What it boils down to is; our sexual preference is an integral part of our sexuality. Just as much as bisexual people can have a sexual preference towards a certain sex, others with different sexual orientations can have different preferences as well. Yes, transsexualism isn't a sexual orientation, and I believe that people who are transgender are very much as much a man or a woman as anyone else if they go the whole nine yards. Hell, who am I to say to anyone that identifies as a man or a woman of who they are supposed to be? Only you know yourself the best.

What I believe is vastly different from what I feel though. I don't feel sexually attracted to transsexual people knowing the fact. My sexual feelings are simply out of my control, as they're intrinsically rooted within my inherent sexuality, which is for better or worse, a basic instinct. My beliefs, I can change, and some do change based on knowledge and other factors over time, but what I respond to on a sexual level is always going to be based on what it was from the start. I can certainly pretend, but that would be disingenuous to people, and I don't want that. If that makes me and other straight men who feel the same way, bigoted, then I presume that it's on you. I can't speak for others, but I know that I wouldn't judge anyone for something that's out of their control, because it does not make sense to do so.

I feel for transsexual people, because of the countless of hurdles they've faced and managed to overcome, and are undoubtedly still facing to this day. I think they're amazing and strong, and I will stand behind them on all fronts, from equality to acceptance of them being open to be who they are. To show solidarity with the people in the LGBT community is important, and I won't hesitate to do so against those who think otherwise.

.

 

[AbsolutBro]

Geeze, I think comparing people to the food you eat is horribly offensive...

Yet you did...

Just because you say it doesn't make it so.

So I'm clear, we're offended by his salmon analogy, but not this cake analogy:

Let's use another example:

Tobi only likes pineapple upside-down cake. This is the only specification he's noted. He eats pineapple upside-down cake, and doesn't eat any other type of cake. This is not disingenuous.

Veronica only likes chocolate ice cream cake. This is the only specification she's noted. She eats chocolate ice cream cake, and doesn't eat any other type of cake. This is not disingenuous.

Glen only likes red velvet cake. This is the only specification he's noted. But, he's presented with two slices of red velvet cake. They're functionally identical, from taste to texture to appearance. You could easily switch the two slices and he couldn't tell the difference. He begins eating one slice of cake. But, as he's eating, he's been told that the slice he's eating was made with a box of cake mix and not natural ingredients. He spits out the cake, and says he doesn't like it anymore. "I only eat cake with homegrown ingredients," he replies. And yet, he never specified this initially. Is it the baker's fault for not warning him, even though he was never told he'd only eat natural cake? Or is it Glen's fault for immediately denouncing it as soon as he was told it was made with cake mix?

?

 

[Petrie]

I assume we're at an impasse where you define being a certain gender would require that they be able to sire/bear a child. I do not share that view.

Incorrect. As someone with no interest in kids that's not relevant to me.

 

[Cagey]

The OP doesn't specify (heterosexual or otherwise) men, but it's cissexist privilege to assume that's what it's about.

This is reaching the point of parody.

 

[WAR recon zero]

Nsfw instagram of a very lovely and beautiful girl that happens to be a transgender

http://instagram.com/carmen_carrera

 

[Trojita]

The actual argument is whether or not they would like to date them.

Izunadono, the thread is asking how you can reconcile someone using a gender specific bathroom if you yourself don't see them as the gender they identify as. The whole basis of the thread is incredibly dumb. Just because someone won't date a transgendered person because of "preferences", doesn't give them the right to take away the right of someone using such a facility. No one said you have to be attracted to every trans person or that every trans person has the right to be attractive to everyone.

It's like those people that are paranoid of gays or lesbians being in the same bathroom as them and thinking they are all going to be predators or something.

 

[Izuna]

Sure they're free to do so, but we're also free to call their reasoning fucked up.

I think you telling people that their preferences are fucked up, is fucked up.

You don't have completely calculated and understood reasons why you like all of the things you do either. You can't expect everyone to have a profound reasoning. They didn't come into the thread with bullshit reasons either, they were told to explain it or suffer bigocy.

 

[Mumei]

Why is it bigoted for a straight man to be repulsed at the idea of having sex with someone who was born a genetic male/with a penis? I see no bigotry there. I don't want to have sex or a relationship with a person who was once a man physically before having surgery and taking hormones. One can hold that position while being perfectly fine with trans people having the same rights and freedoms as everyone else.

You could also show me a picture of a woman in undress and later tell me she's related to me. I'd have a similar reaction in terms of not wanting to have sex or see her naked.

Do you remember us having this exact same conversation years ago? My opinion now is the same as it was then: If you find someone attractive thinking they are a cisgender woman, and are grossed out by them when thinking they are a transgender woman, that is bigotry. If your response to the same physical body changes because on what you believe about their status trans / cis, then your issue is entirely in your head and less about their physical body.

Now, if you were unattracted to a specific trans woman because she just wasn't attractive to you as an individual, for whatever reason, that's one thing. But we're not talking about that; we're talking about someone where you can't tell by looking and you have to be informed.

... Also, comparing the thought of having sex with a trans person to the specter of incest is probably not the best way of arguing your position, either.

 

[stufte]

The OP doesn't specify (heterosexual or otherwise) men, but it's cissexist privilege to assume that's what it's about.

Do you get paid per usage of "cissexist"?

 

[FartOfWar]

Even if not all of us see eye to eye, there's clearly a modicum of progress being made here. A lot of it ultimately boils down to convenience, comfort and semantics - no one's going to change their outlook overnight - but people are willing to listen.

"Progress" and "willingness to listen" in this sense specifically pertain to other people listening to and/or entertaining propositions you put forward or already agree with.

 

[Pilgrimzero]

I'd date her if I found her physically attractive.

Now this is going to sound mean but from my personal experience its uncommon that a trans woman looks like a female. Too often its more like a man in drag. Really I'd say its been about 50 percent.

But yea, if she looked pleasing to my eye and had all the fun parts and we got along I'd have no problem with it.

 

[eso76]

I wouldn't date a man.
So ?

Actually, i don't think I really understood what the OP meant.

 

[Mumei]

Perception of a person is a perfectly valid reason to be unattracted to them. It factors into many, if not all relationships. I don't see what's bigoted about the fact that I'm not attracted to the idea that the vagina I had sex with was previously not a vagina. It's not taking anyone's rights away, and it's not being intolerant of them. It's just not wanting to be in a physical relationship with them.

Well, I agree that perception is a perfectly valid reason to be unattracted to someone. I knew a guy who was exactly my type physically, and I figured out that he was interested in me (long after the fact; I'm highly oblivious). But he wasn't my type in terms of personality. He was the sort of person where I'd feel embarrassed if someone I knew and respected had found out I was involved with him. Shallow, yes, but there it is.

I guess the disagreement here is that we don't think that "This person is trans" is a legitimate reason, whereas, "I find their personality to be unpleasant," is.

 

[Sai-kun]

I wouldn't date a man.
So ?

Actually, i don't think I really understood what the OP meant.

trans women aren't men

 

[Izuna]

Izunadono, the thread is asking how you can reconcile someone using a gender specific bathroom if you yourself don't see them as the gender they identify as. The whole basis of the thread is incredibly dumb. Just because someone won't date a transgendered person because of "preferences", doesn't give them the right to take away the right of someone using such a facility. No one said you have to be attracted to every trans person or that every trans person has the right to be attractive to everyone.

It's like those people that are paranoid of gays or lesbians being in the same bathroom as them and thinking they are all going to be predators or something.

That part is understood. Almost every post in the first many pages said they were pro-trans movement but wouldn't date them because reasons.

It's the reasons that apparently cannot ever be rational or true, those reasons have to mean they are against trans rights or passively oppress trans people.

I guess the disagreement here is that we don't think that "This person is trans" is a legitimate reason, whereas, "I find their personality to be unpleasant," is.

I understand so much that, legitimate reasoning or not, it's a painful thing for a trans person to hear. However it doesn't need to be a legitimate reason. It isn't an impossible preference, it doesn't mean people are either bigots or that they haven't been near a beautiful trans woman before. People choose to be attracted to people for spiritual reasons even, personality and looks aren't the only things people can choose to fit their criteria. They are free to come up with any criteria they want.

They are only bigots if they went out their way expressing these criteria to those who don't fit it.

 

[UrbanRats]

All for the trans-rights movement, and fully support trans-people's right to find happiness and peace with who they are. Wouldn't knowingly date a trans person, though. I'm not interested in a relationship with a person who used to be a man, or used to be trapped in a man's body, or however it's supposed to be phrased. That's MY choice and MY preference.

People who are calling others bigots for feeling that way seem to want to take away our choice of who we're morally allowed to be attracted to or not attracted to. And that's hypocritical.

I think the binary state you and others classify bigotry in, is doing a disservice to the discussion.

It's not and either or status, and you can have feelings and subconscious beliefs rooted in centuries of bigoted culture, while not actively wanting to be or trying to be a bigot on the subject.
If the hold up is mainly mental (and that is a big part of attraction, beyond biological predisposition) it's not far fetched to assume that the culture you have ingrained within you, still operates a pressure on you despite your best intentions.

Personally i wouldn't have any problem dating a trans person, so i can't directly relate to that, but i still think it applies to other things in our lives, from sexism, to xenophobia, to racism, to homophobia and all other things that were culturally beaten into our heads and we fought out of with reason and knowledge, it's not that weird to think some of those "cultural wounds" left a scar, still operating on some level.
Just like a Christian turned Atheist may never lose some aspects of his former spirituality, on a deeper level.

 

[wildfire]

Okay, the general dialogue here is getting on my nerves.

1. There are people coming in, saying they like women, but wouldn't date a trans woman even if they did look the same.

2. They are being called bigots, assholes, transphobic etc. and generally ignorant for seeing a difference between the two.

3. So (in this thread) they are saying they are not assholes, they have their own preferences that's all.

4. In return, they are told they don't really respect trans people and are oppressing them. Because with the way things are, if someone identifies as female, they are female, and if their body appears the same there is absolutely no difference.

5. So they just say, it doesn't matter. They aren't women women.

------

Honestly there is no other way this thread would go. Either one side caves in or somehow, people's preferences change as they are told whatever they feel isn't a legitimate feeling, it's just bigotry borne of ignorance.

I understand trans women do not want to hear that they are not totally women, but the point is, not everyone defines a woman the same way. Not everyone takes gender identity to be the qualifier, to some, a really feminine looking XY is a feminine looking boy, and they have no problems with calling them girls. It is not simply oppression to have a difference of opinion on its own.

No one here on the side of not wanted to date trans women are saying they would disapprove of men who do, or consider them to actually be gay, or refuse to call them women. That is not happening. They are simply saying, that cis women and trans women are exactly that, cis women and trans women.

The actual argument is whether or not they would like to date them. This is up to them and to suggest that they HAVE to equally be attracted to trans women is the only ignorance I see frequently in this thread. To hold their own decisions hostage and to say that they are just flat out wrong in their feelings.

That's one argument. There is still the other that some (potentially most) of these guys who have these preferences for non-transgender women also have a double standard when talking to cis women about transgender individuals.

Why would a heterosexual male want a sexual relationship with a trans woman who hasn't had any surgeries?

Is that not what this thread is about?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=151737461&postcount=1

How is it my place to advocate to transgender sharing with women something as personal as a bathroom when I wouldn't date someone if I couldn't see them as the gender they know themselves to be?

Obviously there are big differences in each of these three scenarios but how can we function as a society with these types of contradictions?

If you didn't skim my OP you would see I was trying to talk about a deeper problem I see in certain people.

 

[GameGuru59]

Do you remember us having this exact same conversation years ago? My opinion now is the same as it was then: If you find someone attractive thinking they are a cisgender woman, and are grossed out by them when thinking they are a transgender woman, that is bigotry. If your response to the same physical body changes because on what you believe about their status trans / cis, then your issue is entirely in your head and less about their physical body.

Now, if you were unattracted to a specific trans woman because she just wasn't attractive to you as an individual, for whatever reason, that's one thing. But we're not talking about that; we're talking about someone where you can't tell by looking and you have to be informed.

... Also, comparing the thought of having sex with a trans person to the specter of incest is probably not the best way of arguing your position, either.

I guess my concern would be whether transgender people are capable of the same sexual response as cis-gendered people. Moreover, if they've had an operation, does all of the hardware work the same as a cis-gendered person? Finally, would you consider it bigotry if I simply wanted to have sexual experiences with people who were females their entire lives?

 

[DJ Crimson]

So I'm clear, we're offended by his salmon analogy, but not this cake analogy:

?

They're both silly but one is straight up dishonest for the point they're trying to make. How you gonna say you're not making a food comparison yet do exactly that.

 

[genjiZERO]

Perception of a person is a perfectly valid reason to be unattracted to them. It factors into many, if not all relationships. I don't see what's bigoted about the fact that I'm not attracted to the idea that the vagina I had sex with was previously not a vagina. It's not taking anyone's rights away, and it's not being intolerant of them. It's just not wanting to be in a physical relationship with them, which is something they never had a right to in the first place.

It's not bigoted, and there is nothing wrong with having that point of view. People who say it does are ultimately doing a disservice to the trans community because it has a tendency to turn people off from the issues they face.

 

[eso76]

trans women aren't men

No, they aren't.

What i meant is, i wouldn't date a man, does that mean i don't respect their gender ?

But i'm sure i didn't understand what the OP was saying.

 

[balgajo]

This kind of feels like an "I'm not racist but.." sort of thing.

I disagree. He compared both trans and cis women to food. And I don't think that's a invalid comparison. In the context of having sex, we use another person to have pleasure the same way we do with foods. The difference is that we don't worry about giving pleasure back to the food(ok, some people don't worry about this in sex too).

 

[RDreamer]

I guess my concern would be whether transgender people are capable of the same sexual response as cis-gendered people. Moreover, if they've had an operation, does all of the hardware work the same as a cis-gendered person? Finally, would you consider it bigotry if I simply wanted to have sexual experiences with people who were females their entire lives?

I think this is an odd distinction that only comes up in this particular realm. At least I can't think of any other cognates. For example, I wonder how people would view the opinion if someone said that they simply wanted sexual experiences with people who were skinny their entire lives? That if they were fat as a child and then got skinny, that would be no good. I think most people would think that's a pretty crazy opinion to hold.

I get the opinion that people want things as authentic as possible, in that science hasn't quite perfected genitalia reassignment. Things are going to be different. If and when science does perfect that, and you still don't want to have sex with someone because in the past they had different parts, then that's probably bigotry. Basically, if you actually can't tell the difference unless someone tells you, and that telling you makes you suddenly against it, then there's probably something wrong there.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Do you remember us having this exact same conversation years ago? My opinion now is the same as it was then: If you find someone attractive thinking they are a cisgender woman, and are grossed out by them when thinking they are a transgender woman, that is bigotry. If your response to the same physical body changes because on what you believe about their status trans / cis, then your issue is entirely in your head and less about their physical body.

Now, if you were unattracted to a specific trans woman because she just wasn't attractive to you as an individual, for whatever reason, that's one thing. But we're not talking about that; we're talking about someone where you can't tell by looking and you have to be informed.

... Also, comparing the thought of having sex with a trans person to the specter of incest is probably not the best way of arguing your position, either.

I maintain the same position as well. If you aren't attracted to men, it would follow that you aren't attracted to someone who was born male. You've called it a mental hurdle essentially that is "all in your head" and I wouldn't disagree with that completely. I would constantly be thinking about the fact that the person was born male, was physically male before her transition, has artificial genitals that don't fully work like a real vagina, no uterus/no children, etc. Those are the mental hurdles the vast majority of men would have, and I argue they are genuine and not some form of bigotry.

The point of the incest comparison is the absense of full information/disclosure. To use a different comparison, there are many men who would be less attracted to a woman if they learned she was infertile; the same applies to many women if they learned a man was sterile.

 

[UrbanRats]

It's not bigoted, and there is nothing wrong with having that point of view. People who say it does are ultimately doing a disservice to the trans community because it has a tendency to turn people off from the issues they face.

How is it not? It may not be conscious, intentional bigotry, but it's still a feeling coming from centuries of deeply ingrained cultural bigotry.

 

[ivysaur12]

If you were have been attracted to this person no matter what, I don't see the real issue?

 

[Count Dookkake]

My penis can not be guilted into tumescence.

 

[Mumei]

I understand so much that, legitimate reasoning or not, it's a painful thing for a trans person to hear. However it doesn't need to be a legitimate reason. It isn't an impossible preference, it doesn't mean people are either bigots or that they haven't been near a beautiful trans woman before. People choose to be attracted to people for spiritual reasons even, personality and looks aren't the only things people can choose to fit their criteria. They are free to come up with any criteria they want.

They are only bigots if they went out their way expressing these criteria to those who don't fit it.

Not that I agree with the distinction you've drawn, but supposing I did: Wouldn't that be a rather apt description of this topic?

I guess my concern would be whether transgender people are capable of the same sexual response as cis-gendered people. Moreover, if they've had an operation, does all of the hardware work the same as a cis-gendered person? Finally, would you consider it bigotry if I simply wanted to have sexual experiences with people who were females their entire lives?

Well, I don't know. You would have to ask a transgender person or someone more familiar with that aspect. And I think it's important to remember that we don't date or find ourselves interested in abstractions, but real people. Maybe in the abstract you'd like to have sexual experiences with people who were females their entire lives, but you could find yourself attracted to a person who is transgender. Like, in the abstract my ideal sexual partner is noticeably taller than I am - maybe 3 to 10 inches. But in practice, I still find men who are around my height or shorter to be attractive, too.

 

[CloverCarr]

I think this is an odd distinction that only comes up in this particular realm. At least I can't think of any other cognates. For example, I wonder how people would view the opinion if someone said that they simply wanted sexual experiences with people who were skinny their entire lives? That if they were fat as a child and then got skinny, that would be no good. I think most people would think that's a pretty crazy opinion to hold.

I get the opinion that people want things as authentic as possible, in that science hasn't quite perfected genitalia reassignment. Things are going to be different. If and when science does perfect that, and you still don't want to have sex with someone because in the past they had different parts, then that's probably bigotry. Basically, if you actually can't tell the difference unless someone tells you, and that telling you makes you suddenly against it, then there's probably something wrong there.

Given the loose skin issues that drastic weight loss can have, that opinion might not be as crazy as you think. Perhaps that's a more apt analogy than it first appears.

 

[Griss]

Okay, I went away, slept on this, thought about it for a little while, and decided to make another post (despite bowing out last night). While I gave reasons (physical ones) for not wanting to date trans women yesterday and tried to be honest and fair while doing so, many people including Mumei told me to look behind my sexual preferences. I don't think one has to do that in order to justify their sexuality or what they like, but it certainly doesn't hurt, and it could further the conversation and my own understanding of myself. So I went and thought about it, and I came up with something. Again, I think a lot of people won't like this, but it's just as an honest thought, particularly as an answer to Mumei's question of why the idea that someone who've been attracted to or slept with is trans would put you off continuing to date her, and how this could possibly not be considered pure prejudice. That was an interesting question that I feel goes to the heart of the debate.

So a genuine TRIGGER WARNING - discussion of the physical nature of trans people's bodies follows in a way that might upset an intersex person or trans person, (which is NOT what I want), or could be read as denying gender identity or the physical effects of SRS etc.

Anyway, as a heterosexual man I am attracted to females. Gynephillic, as someone said yesterday. I like the female form and female genitals, and the thought of putting my penis into a female until I ejaculate. That's all pretty standard. Something I didn't touch on yesterday, though, and I also feel is important in this conversation, is my sexual reaction to men. By which I mean, I genuinely believe that an aversion to men sexually is a normal part of my heterosexuality. Now, day-to-day, I do not think about other men sexually (whether they're gay or not, makes no difference), but when forced to (say, confronted with pornographic imagery) my reaction is extremely strong and extremely negative. It is the opposite of arousal. My instinct says 'that's not for you, buddy, and never will be, and that "tastes really bad" to your eyes', while my rational, educated brain might say, 'it's just a naked guy, naked guys and gay sex are both normal, deal with it'. It's only at that lower, baser sexual attraction 'level' that I'm repulsed, but I can't deny that I am, and I feel like that's a part of my sexuality. In particular the thought of contact with another man's penis, especially sexual contact is unpleasant to me, while the thought of being penetrated (by anything, really) is actually quite frightening and unpleasant and makes me sweat just sitting here thinking about it. I'm in my 30s and these preferences have remained unchanged since puberty. It's vanilla, but it's who I am and I'm perfectly content with myself in this regard.

I don't feel like any of this was learned, or taught to me, I feel like these thoughts or instincts arose at exactly the same time as my attraction to females did. Now to address the obvious issue that arises from what I just said, I think that a lot of homophobia and horrible violence in history has arisen from this instinct, which is horrible and which I feel shame as a straight man about, but I don't think that the instinct itself to be specifically unattracted to your own sex is homophobic, and this isn't the post to discuss homophobia anyway (though I'd be happy to talk about that). I certainly learned quickly that my own sexual revulsion towards the naked male body in sexual situations should not in any way colour my opinions of those bisexual and gay people who felt otherwise, and everything was good. (This process took me three years between the age of 11 and 14.)

To sum up that point - Sexuality for me isn't like a magnet attracting me to women, it's like two magnets - one pushing me away from men and one pushing me towards women. Both are extremely strong, though I only ever really consider one of them, as I'm never in situations where I see men in a sexualized context. I'd wager most heterosexual men would, if forced, admit the same sexual instincts.

But this brings us to trans people. In the situation where I'm happily sleeping with a trans woman and find out she's trans, all of a sudden, as much as I wish it wasn't the case, the knowledge that her body developed as male suddenly brings my aversion to the male body into play mentally. I can't ignore or pretend that these thoughts wouldn't occur. I can't ignore or pretend that the thought that I was touching the skin of a former penis with my own wouldn't upset me or turn me off, that the bone structure of the person I was sleeping with was intrinsically male or associated thoughts - all of this would, I believe (and this is hypothetical) be too much for me to want to continue a sexual relationship. It's not a case of actively wanting to deny the gender identity of the person I'm with, it's a case of knowing something about their body that would colour my entire sexual experience with them. As horrible as it sounds, I'd be looking at the shape of her hips or shoulders for any signs of masculinity (even if I couldn't find one!), as my brain fights between the thought of the male physiology (and my revulsion to it) that I know is still there in parts, and the female appearance and sexual experience that I was originally attracted to. (Of course, if it was a trans woman with a penis that would just be out of the question for obvious reasons, but I'm talking about a superficially indistinguishable woman.)

Does this make any sense to anyone? I don't know, but I know it's how I feel. Is it fair on trans people? No, it's not, and I'm sure it's hurtful. I can't imagine how much, as I've never faced those issues. But I was asked to really, honestly look behind my preferences and try and divine my reasons and in interests of honesty and further discussion there they are. I know it will read as the textbook definition of cissexism to many, and I apologise for that and any offence caused.

 

[Megalosaro]

I am far from transphobic. I fully support the lbgt rights movement and getting their due rights and what not.

But I wouldn't date someone who was trans.

 

[wildfire]

Izunadono, the thread is asking how you can reconcile someone using a gender specific bathroom if you yourself don't see them as the gender they identify as. The whole basis of the thread is incredibly dumb. Just because someone won't date a transgendered person because of "preferences", doesn't give them the right to take away the right of someone using such a facility.

It's dumb because you are too unconcerned to look at how many women make the same reasons they don't want to share a personal space with someone who is transgendered. When the best answers they are given by these types of men is, I'm right you're wrong, or get over it or just try to understand they aren't a threat, they aren't being honest with cis women about how they share the same views as them and only care about protecting their own cis masculine sanctity.

Guys like that are illogical and based on this threads reaction unable to realize that dissonance, yet.

 

[FartOfWar]

If you find someone attractive thinking they are a cisgender woman, and are grossed out by them when thinking they are a transgender woman, that is bigotry. If your response to the same physical body changes because on what you believe about their status trans / cis, then your issue is entirely in your head and less about their physical body.

No commonly accepted definitions of bigotry include personal sexual preference. And though the issue is certainly in his head, at present we aren't aware whether that disposition is a product of culture, biology, or their interplay. In good faith, I take his incest analogy to indicate his position that his private sexual aversion to trans women is inborn (as evidence suggests is a likely scenario with universal incest taboos) rather than an attempt to equate all other aspects of intercourse with close relatives and transexuals.

 

[Trojita]

It's dumb because you are too unconcerned to look at how many women make the same reasons they don't want to share a personal space with someone who is transgendered. When the best answers they are given by these types of men is, I'm right you're wrong, or get over it or just try to understand they aren't a threat, they aren't being honest with cis women about how they share the same views as them and only care about protecting their own cis masculine sanctity.

Guys like that are illogical and based on this threads reaction unable to realize that dissonance, yet.

This has nothing to do with cis-masculinity. You aren't making any sense.