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[morningbus]

I'll post it again because I don't know why people are having trouble understanding Merlyn's motivations:

Yeah, I'm surprised by how people don't seem to be following at least this part of Merlyn's logic.

The facts:
Merlyn has a bounty on his head from the League.
The bounty would be erased if Ra's is defeated in combat.
Merlyn doesn't want to risk fighting Ra's himself as the odds are probably poor.
Merlyn decides to get Oliver to do his dirty business, as he is probably the next most competent fighter with at least a chance of winning.

The plan:
Merlyn uses Thea to kill a League member, a crime that would result in a similar bounty being place on Thea's head.
Merlyn uses the evidence of Thea shooting Sara to force Oliver to admit to the crime and challenge Ra's as the only way of settling the League's debts.

The prospective result(s):
1) Oliver miraculously defeats Ra's, erasing all debts. Problem solved.
2) Ra's kills Oliver. Merlyn's debt is still in force, but at least Oliver is out of the way in terms of competing with him for Thea and in terms of being a hero potentially willing to help the League find him when he runs. Problem at least partially solved and Merlyn is still better off for it.

The problem is that Oliver was defeated but not killed, a contingency Merlyn did not plan for as it has literally never happened. Merlyn's plan is only terrible in hindsight, knowing Oliver makes it out of it.

The only thing that could have gone wrong was that Oliver would call his bluff about Thea and hand him over to the league. However, Oliver is told that the league doesn't care about mind-control potions and would kill Thea anyway. Knowing Oliver's psychology (which is extremely exploitable), he would blame himself for anything that happened to Thea. We know this because the dude still accepts blame for Shado's death.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

In my opinion the plot is ridiculously paper thin and it can only work if many of the characters are rendered completely incompetent and stupid.

The only one worth anything in this episode was Thea and that was because she did what should have been done a long time ago.

Also: Oliver can't run his own family business, so why in the hell does Ra's think he can run a centuries old league of assassins?

 

[mooncakes]

How did Thea contact the League of Assassin? They never explained it.

 

[E the Shaggy]

In my opinion the plot is ridiculously paper thin and it can only work if many of the characters are rendered completely incompetent and stupid.

The only one worth anything in this episode was Thea and that was because she did what should have been done a long time ago.

Season 3 has been a pale shadow of the second season so far imo.

Watching last night's episode, about 20 minutes in, I thought how nice it was that we didn't have any flashbacks, then at like the 30 minute mark, they shoehorn Oliver and co. getting attacked on the shipyard. It's just so...pointless.

 

[Chariot]

How did Thea contact the League of Assassin? They never explained it.

I think she made a quick comment on how the League were crawling through Starling anyways. So, I don't know, maybe she just talked into the shadows in her apartment or into some dark part of the street.

 

[Joni]

Watching last night's episode, about 20 minutes in, I thought how nice it was that we didn't have any flashbacks, then at like the 30 minute mark, they shoehorn Oliver and co. getting attacked on the shipyard. It's just so...pointless.

First flashback sequence happened less than 4 minutes in the episode. Second flashback sequence happens around 16 minutes. So after 20 minutes, you just watched the second flashback

 

[Penguin]

How did Thea contact the League of Assassin? They never explained it.

I don't think they need to

Same way Moira did in season 2

Imagine the League has ears everywhere!

Or maybe used the dead DJ's phone.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Yet Roy still gets bodied constantly.

As he should.

 

[morningbus]

In my opinion the plot is ridiculously paper thin and it can only work if many of the characters are rendered completely incompetent and stupid.

I've seen this mentioned a few times so far. Could you explain how each character was incompetent and/or stupid in ways not addressed by the show?

I'm just interested in the perspective, as I thought last night's episode was pretty good and that the characters were acting in ways that ultimately made sense.

 

[Chariot]

 

[Wiktor]

- Laurel is the queen now. Suck that ether, Ollie.
].

Meh.I loved how he put her down later on. At least the rest of the team has enough sense to realize why Oliver is doing that, while Laurel seems to think she's the one and only person in the room who Malcom screwed.
This was a great little moment for Felicity when she got he was doing it for Thea and immieidetelly stopped complaining and go work.

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

This episode, honestly, just felt strange.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

I've seen this mentioned a few times so far. Could you explain how each character was incompetent and/or stupid in ways not addressed by the show?

I'm just interested in the perspective, as I thought last night's episode was pretty good and that the characters were acting in ways that ultimately made sense.

Malcolm Merlyn was desperate and his decision to get Oliver (the only one in Starling City protecting him) to fight Ra's was poorly thought out as he would've known that Oliver had little chance against him. Even Oliver should've known that, but yet he went along with a plan concocted by a mass murderer anyway.

To what end?

Oliver ended up antagonising Ra's and the league even more to the point where they literally sent people to kill Thea due to her connection to Malcolm. At that point Oliver should've given Malcolm to the league (as video or not the result for Thea would've been the same) - but yet it took Thea herself to do that.

The ONLY thing that ultimately saved Oliver was that Ra's al Ghul turned out to be not as unreasonable as people assumed.

P.S. Ra's al Ghul is also stupid for offering control over his family business (the league) to a man (Oliver) who has shown a complete inability to manage his own business affairs.

 

[Anbokr]

Meh.I loved how he put her down later on. At least the rest of the team has enough sense to realize why Oliver is doing that, while Laurel seems to think she's the one and only person in the room who Malcom screwed.

That's the point. And she was basically spelling out to Ollie what everyone on Team Arrow was thinking but didn't have the balls to say: Malcolm has screwed everyone so why not just let him face justice instead of attempting a suicide mission to rescue the man who tried to blow up the Glades, killed his own son, manipulated your sister and put her in danger, and is just all around a piece of shit shady son of a bitch. She was spewin the truth.

Agree with people that say the episode just felt a bit... off. In general that has been the feeling of this season, lots of just what? moments. Characters seem to make arbitrary and irrational decisions at times and like someone said earlier, it's one of the few shows where I can feel them being guided by the writer's pen rather than their own personalities/motivations as characters. This whole season has just been one big ?.

Some of the plot points for the season have been fun/interesting, but I feel like their execution has been so poor. Ollie's death and revival should have had more explanation, if the writers couldn't think of a fun way to "resurrect" him then don't fucking have him stabbed and thrown off a cliff--I know this is a comic book show, but that just felt so cheap. The whole "I want you to be the next Ras" thing could have been built up to in a much more interesting way. It just came out of nowhere. Season should have given us more background on the League, more background on Ras and his motivations etc... rather than throw filler at us for 15 episodes then suddenly throw out this "surprise."

 

[TheOMan]

I love that everyone here is dropping truth bombs all up in this bitch.

- Laurel is the queen now. Suck that ether, Ollie.

- Thea is rightfully pissed.

- Roy has hidden depths.

- Diggle is as stupidly suicidal as Oliver. All this shit cause of Oliver's bruised ego. Crazy motherfucker.

- Ray and Felicity finally got it on. Woo. Much prefer this pairing.

- Nyssa and Ra's' domestic disputes were accidentally hilarious.

Agree with that Diggle part. And his wife basically egging him to go die with Oliver. Just weird.

 

[Pilgrimzero]

I'm shocked so many people seem to just now see how Batman this show really is.

This version of "Arrow" is so much more like Batman than the Green Arrow. It's been obvious for a long long time.

 

[Wiktor]

That's the point. And she was basically spelling out to Ollie what everyone on Team Arrow was thinking but didn't have the balls to say: Malcolm has screwed everyone so why not just let him face justice instead of attempting a suicide mission to rescue the man who tried to blow up the Glades, killed his own son, manipulated your sister and put her in danger, and is just all around a piece of shit shady son of a bitch. She was spewin the truth.

Because Laruel has no clue. She's not a killer. Oliver is and it's eating away his soul. He knows Thea will be destroyed by what she did. Heck, she's falling apart for killing Sara when he had zero blame for it.
Oliver blames himselt for death of his family. Thea is the last piece left, so he will go to extreme lenghts just to protect her soul.

I really don't have any problem with Oliver's action. His reasoning has been pretty consistent this season. I might not agree with his every action, but he isn't acting out of character.

When you look at what he went through recently there's pretty much nothing left for him. Loss of company, death of mother and eventually loss of Felicity has completely wiped out Oliver Queen persona. He effectively doesn't have any reason to exist. All that was left was Arrow and he took solace in it, but in last few eps even that has been taken away from him. First Ra's has completely destroyed him in combat, the one thing he was still actually good at, and then when he crawled back to Starling City he learned that the team did just fine without him.

He rightfully feels like nobody needs Oliver Queen and Arrow anymore. The sole role that's truly left for him to play is being brother to Thea. So it's no wonder he do crazy things for her. Especially since we know he's a little engine that runs of distilled guilt.

 

[Lashley]

As much as I enjoyed that episode, how was that the big twist that was hyped up?

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

I'm shocked so many people seem to just now see how Batman this show really is.

This version of "Arrow" is so much more like Batman than the Green Arrow. It's been obvious for a long long time.

I can see the logic in offering control over the league to Bruce Wayne (successful business man, master martial artist, excellent strategist), but Oliver Queen? He has been out fought and out thought at nearly every turn.

He is an exceptionally poor Batman replacement.

 

[Wiktor]

I'm shocked so many people seem to just now see how Batman this show really is.

This version of "Arrow" is so much more like Batman than the Green Arrow. It's been obvious for a long long time.

You need to add it's a show about Thomas Wayne Batman

 

[Wiktor]

I can see the logic in offering control over the league to Bruce Wayne (successful business man, master martial artist, excellent strategist), but Oliver Queen? He has been out fought and out thought at nearly every turn.

He is an exceptionally poor Batman replacement.

He makes more sense than Batman did. Trying to give control of a League of Assassins to man who has ridiculously strong no-kill rule makes as much sense as making Morrissey a CEO of meat company.

 

[TheOMan]

Because Laruel has no clue. She's not a killer. Oliver is and it's eating away his soul. He knows Thea will be destroyed by what she did. Heck, she's falling apart for killing Sara when he had zero blame for it.
Oliver blames himselt for death of his family. Thea is the last piece left, so he will go to extreme lenghts just to protect her soul.

I really don't have any problem with Oliver's action. His reasoning has been pretty consistent this season. I might not agree with his every action, but he isn't acting out of character.

When you look at what he went through recently there's pretty much nothing left for him. Loss of company, death of mother and eventually loss of Felicity has completely wiped out Oliver Queen persona. He effectively doesn't have any reason to exist. All that was left was Arrow and he took solace in it, but in last few eps even that has been taken away from him. First Ra's has completely destroyed him in combat, the one thing he was still actually good at, and then when he crawled back to Starling City he learned that the team did just fine without him.

He rightfully feels like nobody needs Oliver Queen and Arrow anymore. The sole role that's truly left for him to play is being brother to Thea. So it's no wonder he do crazy things for her. Especially since we know he's a little engine that runs of distilled guilt.

I think you just spelled out the reasons as to why he should accept Ra's offer.

 

[morningbus]

Malcolm Merlyn was desperate and his decision to get Oliver (the only one in Starling City protecting him) to fight Ra's was poorly thought out as he would've known that Oliver had little chance against him. Even Oliver should've known that, but yet he went along with a plan concocted by a mass murderer anyway.

To what end?

Oliver ended up antagonising Ra's and the league even more to the point where they literally sent people to kill Thea due to her connection to Malcolm. At that point Oliver should've given Malcolm to the league (as video or not the result for Thea would've been the same) - but yet it took Thea herself to do that.

The ONLY thing that ultimately saved Oliver was that Ra's al Ghul turned out to be not as unreasonable as people assumed.

P.S. Ra's al Ghul is also stupid for offering control over his family business (the league) to a man (Oliver) who has shown a complete inability to manage his own business affairs.

That only speaks poorly of Oliver, though. Merlyn's plan wasn't flawless (obviously) but with all practical outcomes he still came out ahead regardless of what happened. The only thing he didn't account for was the one that seemed impossible: that Oliver would lose, but not die.

As for Oliver, it's at least consistent with how the character acts. The guy, for all his abilities, is easily manipulated, especially when guilt is involved. The character acts stupidly, yet, but so do a lot of characters from all different kinds of shows. You'd be hard pressed to find a show where every character is completely competent at all times.

As for Ra's. I'm willing to wait and see how this plot line pans out. There have been many different interpretations of Ra's that this could go a lot of ways.

 

[PhoncipleBone]

He makes more sense than Batman did. Trying to give control of a League of Assassins to man who has ridiculously strong no-kill rule makes as much sense as making Morrissey a CEO of meat company.

LOL. Great analogy.

 

[BKatastrophe]

I agree with most of what you said but I don't think Ra's wants Ollie to take over simply because he survived, it's because he has shown an unyielding desire for justice even in the face of impossible odds. Ra's knows that Oliver did not kill Sara, and he probably suspects that Merlyn isn't being entirely truthful either. But, the fact that Oliver is willing to risk his life to save a man who is by all accounts a monster, despite the fact that the last time he went up against Ra's he basically died, shows his commitment towards justice.

Has Oliver ascended to Batman levels yet? No, for fuck's sake he still goes "in English, please" to Felicity anytime she describes something even remotely scientific, but we aint getting the Batman TV series so I'll take this and be happy.

All good points, it's just that when Ra's was offering Oliver the position, all I got out of it was "you defied death and faced impossible odds. Want a job?" Like, tenacity is all Oliver needs, I guess. And that's not to say it's not a positive quality or anything. Or to say it isn't impressive. I just feel like this whole bit is sort of unearned as a result. They should have saved this storyline for later. But like I said, I'm looking forward to it.

As he should.

 

[guek]

In my opinion the plot is ridiculously paper thin and it can only work if many of the characters are rendered completely incompetent and stupid.

Yup. These shows are fun but the writing...ehhh. Not always the best

 

[Wiktor]

I think you just spelled out the reasons as to why he should accept Ra's offer.

Yes.. He's in a place where it will be extremely tempting to accept. They even spelled it out. It's not that he is suppossed to become the head. He's supposed to become Ra's, a clear identity for him to accept when he has lost his identities as both Oliver and Arrow.
It line ups too well to not be intentional.

And the sad thing is, you can bet he would probably be a lot happier in the Nanda Parbat than in Arrow cave.

 

[guek]

I want Ra's to train Ollie

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

He makes more sense than Batman did. Trying to give control of a League of Assassins to man who has ridiculously strong no-kill rule makes as much sense as making Morrissey a CEO of meat company.

There are plenty of people who are willing to kill. Not so many who can work as a costumed superhero (who has the ability to defeat a centuries old assassin) while successfully managing an international corporation.

 

[Wiktor]

I want Ra's to train Ollie

I do to. He feels like a perfect father figure for Oliver too. He might be later revaled as lunatic known from comics, but for now it seems this is much calmer and just Ra's. The whole "I've replaced evil with death" makes League seem like a hidden hand that balances the scales in favor of cold hearted justice, not a terrorist organization.
That's why it makes sense for him to see Oliver as potential successor. Because Oliver has shown he has the tenacitity and mindset for that particular purpose. He doesn't need to try take over the world or create mass catastrophes, so he doesn't need to be a genius tactican. What he needs is a extremely strong sense of justice, dedication and humblenes to accept there are things more important than him. All of those requirements Oliver fulfills in spades.

Heck, they already played up fatherly bond. When he first saw Oliver he said he was just a boy and there was a gentleness to how he killed him on that mountain top. Like father sending of his son.
Ra's has no male successors. Nyssa is badass and all, but for hundreds years old man she propably can't fulfill the role of the son. Especially since she's lesbian, so she likely won't produce an offspring to continue the blood line. (I assume this is exactly what Malcolm meant)

I think too many people inject comic book and movie Ra's into Arrowverse. THis isn't Batman begins Ra's. Heck, he's hunting Malcolm all around the world for doing exactly what Ra's did in Begins.

 

[Wiktor]

There are plenty of people who are willing to kill. Not so many who can work as a costumed superhero (who has the ability to defeat a centuries old assassin) while successfully managing an international corporation.

All that makes Batman better candiate for superhero, but not the head of assassins brotherhood. THere was never any moment where reader could realistically entertain the idea of Bruce agreeing to Ra's offer. It was never going to work. Ra's just came off as obsessed stalker in this scenario who couldn't take a hint the girl obviously isn't interested. It made for a fun read, because that Ra's was murderous lunatic.

This Ra's is calm collected man with strong sense of justice and honor. It wouldn't make sense for him to fall in love with the idea of convincing man to abandon everything he is and become the demon head. Oliver is far better candidate for him.

After all when Batman became leader of organization it was Batman Incocorporated and the whole point of it was to fight against Ra's daughter .

 

[quesalupa]

Did they just go full Batman?

 

[Blader]

Okay, I need all the writers and directors on this show to stop, take a second, and settle on one universal pronunciation for Ra's al Ghul. It can be Rahz, it can be Raysh, but it can't be both and certainly can't be both in the same episode anymore.

 

[OdysseusVA]

After watching it again, it's bad and all over the place. Odd pacing and transitions.

 

[fallengorn]

I'm shocked so many people seem to just now see how Batman this show really is.

This version of "Arrow" is so much more like Batman than the Green Arrow. It's been obvious for a long long time.

Go through the old threads. We've been calling it out since the first season.

 

[Wiktor]

I've rewatched the episode (first time since the Climb that I did it so soon) and I feel even stronger about the intention of showrunners to strip Oliver out of his identities to make him wanting to take Ra's offer.

Even during assault it's clearly visible. Oliver goes to Nanda Parbat without his costume and he immediately starts to kill guards. Practically rejecting all that he's supposed to be as Arrow. Which shows that deep inside he's close to giving up his superhero persona.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Eh.

I chuckled heartily at Laurel trying to take on Meryln. Come on now...take a seat, Laurel.

Also, you killed my sister, you stupid sonofabitch. Oh lawd.

So Ra's wants Ollie to be the leader of the league? What the fuck? How does that even make a lick of sense?

Why would Ra's want someone who he damn near killed with relative ease as the leader? Piss off with this garbage. If you're going to rip off Batman wholesale, do it properly or just don't bother.

So...Ollie is okay with killing again?

I'm liking the Ray Palmer story. I'm actually enjoying it more than the main story arc. Loved the shot of him in his suit.

I'm not liking emo Thea.

 

[MarauderShields]

Really wish they would kill off Laurel.

 

[Kiriku]

Been waiting for that Atom scene... but disappointed that they made it look so cheap and greenscreened. For a moment I honestly thought it was supposed to be some kind of monitor in the background when he was up on the roof. :/
Glad I was right that they would add a visor to the helmet though, looked much better.

 

[Blader]

I've rewatched the episode (first time since the Climb that I did it so soon) and I feel even stronger about the intention of showrunners to strip Oliver out of his identities to make him wanting to take Ra's offer.

Even during assault it's clearly visible. Oliver goes to Nanda Parbat without his costume and he immediately starts to kill guards. Practically rejecting all that he's supposed to be as Arrow. Which shows that deep inside he's close to giving up his superhero persona.

I don't think he was killing anyone, just a lot of shoulder hits and arrows that conveniently miss any vitals.

Diggle, on the other hand, was shooting motherfuckers dead left and right.

 

[Chuckie]

Really wish they would kill off Laurel.

I really wish they don't. She was the only one who acted not insane this episode.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

I don't think he was killing anyone, just a lot of shoulder hits and arrows that conveniently miss any vitals.

Diggle, on the other hand, was shooting motherfuckers dead left and right.

He killed at least three people by my count.

I really wish they don't. She was the only one who acted not insane this episode.

She was pretty insane in thinking she stood even a shred of a chance against Merlyn. Come on, that was just stupidity mixed with ego and insanity.

 

[E the Shaggy]

So...Ollie is okay with killing again?

Yeah, this was really weird. He was shooting guys in the throat throughout the episode.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Yeah, this was really weird. He was shooting guys in the throat throughout the episode.

I think Adrian might be onto something with the writers having Ollie have a split in identities with him possibly considering and maybe even taking the role of leader of the League.

Would certainly make for a very interesting shift in the show and would explain why he's seemingly okay with killing now...

 

[brotkasten]

This was a really weird episode.

And I'm starting to like Laurel. At least she's calling him out on his bullshit.

 

[foxtrot3d]

Yeah, this was really weird. He was shooting guys in the throat throughout the episode.

I thought that originally but if you look and listen you see that they are dart arrows, they are just going down for a nap. The jury is still out as to whether Diggle was shooting to injure or kill.

 

[Dysun]

The comparisons to Batman are nothing new but this really felt like the moment where they drop the pretense. I guess it was all leading here when they announced Ra's as the big new character of Season 3.

That said, I'm fine with it. Batman is great and an amalgamation with Green Arrow is fine with me

 

[BKatastrophe]

Remember how Moira contacted Ra's about Merlyn and then he didn't show up again until the end of S2?

How'd she do that?

 

[foxtrot3d]

Yes.. He's in a place where it will be extremely tempting to accept. They even spelled it out. It's not that he is suppossed to become the head. He's supposed to become Ra's, a clear identity for him to accept when he has lost his identities as both Oliver and Arrow.
It line ups too well to not be intentional.

And the sad thing is, you can bet he would probably be a lot happier in the Nanda Parbat than in Arrow cave.

Yeah, see that's the only problem here with me, why wouldn't Oliver accept? He's not Batman, he's killed before and is not opposed to killing again. So it's not like he can just refuse based on principle, why not become the Demon's Head? It seems like everything he could possibly want as far as doling out his version of justice whilst protecting the people he cares about.

 

[BKatastrophe]

Hell Ollie probably figures he'll do the most good in that position anyways.