I don't think anyone is "offended", you're just not making very sound arguments (like the book/film thing) :/
Honestly, it's okay if you enjoy this game. But that doesn't really mean the perceived flaws are not there.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Angry Joe The Order 1886 Review.
- Thread starter Crossing Eden
- Start date
Honestly, it's okay if you enjoy this game. But that doesn't really mean the perceived flaws are not there.
When people are comparing art style and graphics to the box you get your music in or say that the gameplay matters as much as words in a dictionary or say that it's like the music video used to market that music to you, you don't see why I'm not even a little justified?
I mean, I get it, gameplay is the most important thing. But art style and graphics and music and sound design matter too. They matter a lot. They are a part of the package, whether you acknowledge it or not.
Again, I think games are a beautiful amalgamation of a lot of different arts. They combine visuals and music and scripting and interactivity and so many other things. There's a lot of room for a lot of different styles inside this medium. I think saying the only thing that ever matters is gameplay is not only a lie (because I see you all in other threads praising art styles and sound design), but it also does a disservice to all those other artists.
I think my argument is sound, and I've never tried to say the flaws aren't there. Re-read my posts.
Think about it for a second. We all agree that we can be entertained by a movie, correct? At one point does gameplay then become the sole dictator of how good a piece of entertainment is? The second I add any interactivity to it? So say I have a movie I like and I add the ability to look around via controller, is that then not entertaining? Is that then a bad game? Even if without the looking around I would have liked it as a movie?
I'm just musing here and asking for answers. If I take what would be a very great movie and then add say average gameplay to it... is it then a bad game? Is it a bad piece of entertainment then? Is it then an average piece of entertainment?
WordsintheWater
Member
Can't believe there are people who don't buy this thing...
Do you see how fucking annoying that is? People enjoy and value different things, get used to it
You're right, I've only played Dead Space 2. If you have some footage of a Lycan fight that doesn't involve tediously firing at a Lycan running at you in the same way again and again, I'd like to see it. Show me some strafing or forked attack patterns, because I haven't seen them.
So basically, if you don't face towards them, you'll be hit from the side.
Considering they attack from the same position almost every time and don't strafe you, why aren't you facing towards them?
The problem is that the crate climbing animation is long. Their movement back to their starting location is predictable and often involves just running back the same way they run at you. Notice that in the Dead Space video, most of the Stalker kills are before they hit the player, not after.
Sound isn't important if they attack you from the same angle, you know which direction they're coming from.
The Lycans do fight as a group occasionally; one might attack you as another runs away. Not sure where you got the idea they don't.
It's a big flashing X button to signal when you can dodge. It's a QTE.
I'm starting to wonder if you actually played the game yourself.
another tool youtube reviewer cashing in on trendy internet hate
Sad that the good parts of the game like story, presentation,soundtrack and fun gunplay are just brushed over while people make such a huge deal about game length and QTEs. Never understood why people are so obsessed with having a bunch of padding and filler i ntheir games which is what the majority of long games have in them.
he praises the graphics acting and musical score. He also goes on to say its full of padding and game cliches even in its short length. It's a very well thought out review.
OsirisBlack
Banned
Yes the "guns shoot good" but that is not exactly the point. Yes the enemy encounters are at times straight forward but there are generally more than two ways to approach every fight save for the two most linear ones. The problem with that is even on Hard difficulty it is not necessary to utilize those different approaches which does mean they could have used better level design.
Go play any other TPS then go play the last shooting segment in the Order. That's my second favorite encounter simply because you cannot stand still in that death trap of a room.
How many people actually know you can cancel black sight whenever you want? Toss a grenade black sight shoot it midflight, hip fire run to cover melee kill take cover.... more than 5 enemies pop up reactivate black sight drop them cut it off continue.... there is much more to this than I have seen done in any of the peoples vids that claim the game has bad gameplay. The worst things about the gameplay (it is not without its faults) is enemy variety and encounter design. The levels could have been much better as there are only 4 shooting segments that I replay as they are the best in the game. The worst are
in the warehouse on the docks with the fire as there is no where to go and the enemies just pour into the room, and the back alley with Lafayette as it is the exact same scenario.
WordsintheWater
Member
You can't handle other people liking something you dislike, so that's pretty sad in itself
You don't think people buy benchmarks all the time?
Sometimes I want something pretty to look at or hear or watch. I've seen tons of people talk about buying a specific blu-ray as a benchmark for their system to show it off and look at it. Why should we fault them for doing that?
I don't think almost anyone at all is defending the Lycan sections, lol. Those were bad and whoever designed them should feel bad.
WordsintheWater
Member
You've seen the video, there isn't any. The Lycan battles suck, they charge at you mostly one by one, jump on you then climb a crate and hide behind one till they charge at you again in a line. They are a huge ass misstep in the whole game. So happy it only happens twice in the whole game, if you basically back into a corner you can take em all out so easily.
there isn't
AI as a whole was absolutely terrible
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbmomBPHvS4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUo2rV1xpcQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJLZU4H0hsk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scrhkmsOnFY
Maybe it was kind of a Friday the 13th but for video game releases
Langdon Alger
Banned
Exactly. Reviewers didn't have some sort of personal vendetta against the game. They just gave it the scores they thought it deserved.
Kacho
Member
Having not seen the lycan battles in video form, your explanation is hilarious to read. They sound extremely immersion breaking and one of those moments where you lean back and say, "yep, it's a video game!"
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
I no longer have the game since it was a rental, but I stood behind the brick pillar directly in front of me for the vast majority of the final gun fight and picked everyone off with that lightning gun. It wasn't until I was almost out of ammo that I had to move a little.
The revolver is also super potent, so they made for a nice combo. No point in bothering with some of the weapons as there were a few that were basically pea shooters.
I agree that we should all be using the complete 1-10 scale and judging games with a much more critical eye, it just feels suspect that everyone decided to inexplicably start with The Order. Especially when so many other games seem to be given free passes still.
Will be curious to see where we go from here though.
This doesn't change that the other good games within its genre are just as diverse in player approach while still having better encounter design. That is exactly my point. The pacing/level design/encounters are just not good. It is beyond not good, they are borderline bad. The last encounter was no different. Flood of enemies come in and you are behind 2 to 3 pieces of cover. Use blacksight, kill a few more dudes, use blacksight again. You are walking down a sewer or whatever, pot shotting a couple guys at a time until you come to that last room. It even gives you a big arsenal room right before you go in so it can telegraph what is coming next. It is just amateur, no 2 ways about it.
Go back 10 years again to Gears of War. What was your lead up to the last boss in that? Fighting basically every enemy type in the game as you tear through different cars on a speeding train. The game just fails to live up to its contemporaries, even reaching back to 2006. It is 2015. Multiple studios have stepped up to the plate and knocked the cinematic TPS out of the park and RAD comes in bunting.
You're still missing the point. A book is an awful movie - there's no photography, no convincing acting, no fitting music, no good casting, etc. So basically, you can't blame people for expecting different things of different mediums. When you defend this game by telling me films and books have no gameplay, well, it tells me I actually shouldn't bother with it
Demon Lizardman
Banned
I dunno, I agree with some people liking the game but some seem quite delusional.
Honestly most games don't merit this type of score unless they're broken. The order just really outdid itself. I think between the long wait + high production values, people are having a hard time coming to terms that a game that looks great with no technical flaws could suck so bad. Usually the two go hand in hand.
TheSlySoul
Member
I disagree a bit. If the game is below average, then it deserves a score that is below the average scale. Angry Joe reserves 7/10 for good games.
Honestly I thought it was average myself, but I didn't write the review.
IDK, but at least as much as Twilight Princess getting an 8.8/10.
derExperte
Member
How exciting. Okay, I don't want to be too snarky but are you really implying that other good 3rd person shooters don't have at least that level of 'depth'? You can totally get through the last section on hard by sitting behind one crate and maybe changing to the adjacent a few times. That's not what I would call exciting, it actually cemented the overall mediocrity of The Order in my mind and was one last example for why you should not just make a rectangular, cramped arena and throw waves of enemies at the player. So many games have done this better over the last couple of years but apparently RAD stopped playing anything else a long while ago. I mean even Uncharted 1 asked more from the players (on the higher difficulties).
No I agree, that's why I said *most*. Most games that aren't broken are competent enough that they can achieve to be mediocre. The order went beyond that to the point that it's being rated as bad as broken games, which is causing people to throw fits.
If a game is so universally boring enough that you wish you didn't play it, then it's no better than a game you can't play at all. Hell atleast broken games can be patched, you can't patch a game that's just crap.
Lmao what? Was 8.8 deemed to be too low or what?
WordsintheWater
Member
It sure felt like one for me, spent 120 dollars and both of them were broken haha
Kacho
Member
Haha yep. You don't remember 8.8-gate? It was a show.
What was so funny to me was it ended up being one of my most least liked Zelda games.
only know the Uncharted 3 infamous review thread, is the TP thread worth checkin out? lol
I don't typically like Joe's approach but I had a bit of downtime at work so I gave this a watch. Pending everything he described is true (I haven't played the game) this was a fairly entertaining and informative review. I didn't really get any laughs from Joe himself, but I did have a few from the footage alone. The numerical score -- as they always do -- seemed unnecessary, though.
I may watch more of these for games I have little/no interest in going forward.
I may watch more of these for games I have little/no interest in going forward.
whiteninja
Member
Those shotgun guys seemed absolutely painful to deal with. Annoying bullet sponge enemies.
Agree with him about how we want new IPs but not like this.
Agree with him about how we want new IPs but not like this.
Dude... spoilers much? I skimmed over that part of the video... i didnt even know who was
on trial
WordsintheWater
Member
They definitely are, it's crazy to me that someone at Ready at Dawn thought that those encounters were at all acceptable. And this is coming from someone who's favorite game he's played this gen is this one (excluding remasters)
I am able to distinguish and say although it was my favorite game experience this gen so far, I know there are better games out there and a lot of the criticisms are warranted for this game.
There are lots of reviewers out there. Just because they all reach the same conclusion doesn't mean they're on a crusade.
Sometimes a game just isn't very good. It happens.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
Any score under 9.0 means a game is absolutely terrible, didn't you know!?
Abinash117
Member
What do you mean by overemphasizing gameplay and how are people doing it? Lastly, how can a game overemphasizing gameplay? The problem some people are having with your comment is that you compared movies and books to a very interactive medium that in most cases aren't focused on cutscenes.
To anwser your question no I don't think think your argument is sound at all its like a complete fallacy. The mediums help immerse the person(s) in different ways, but as games are designed to be played and those games are designed in a such a way to immerse the player; if the gameplay isn't good( again it's part if a game) then people will criticize it; for a lot of people it can hurt enjoyment. If movies and books start adding in interactive elements then yes those elements should be criticized or praise if it makes that medium better.
Games aren't movies and movies aren't books, etc.
Now videos games have a varied forms of interacting with the player like Gone Home to Halo, Half Life 2 to The Walking Dead, etc. But the Order is a 3rd person shooter, if the gameplay isn't good then the game can be bad. It wasn't designed as an adventure game like Tomb Raider, it wasn't designed as a interactive moive-ish game like Heavy Rain, or some other games like TWD. It was designed like a 3rd person shooter with tons of OTEs with a huge focus of cutscenes.
Conkerkid11
Member
Great video. Damn at those highlights of the games impressive visuals at the start.
I was on Polycount yesterday, and one of the texture artists posted a bunch of his work on the game. Link
I was on Polycount yesterday, and one of the texture artists posted a bunch of his work on the game. Link
Seems more people here have opinions different than mine... Pathetic... Everyone knows my opinion is superior.
NullPointer
Member
The armored shotgun guys are without a doubt the scariest thing in the world of The Order: 1886.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Wasn't amused at all.
WordsintheWater
Member
That area in those pics have got to be one of the most impressive areas in the game, that place is just insane with detail and atmosphere.
Oh my god, these people definitely have problems
FeiRR
Banned
To be honest, arguing about something you have no idea about is pretty immature behaviour. But I was expecting it from the beginning so I won't pretend I'm surprised. Here's a video of me running around just to show that attacks happen in various places and from different directions, just like in that DS2 video. I'll leave it here against your "facts" which contradict it. Anybody can check my PSN profile to see that I finished this game, Dead Space or whatever. You go where you belong - to the ignore list, with other "Youtube gamers" who, ironically, value gameplay so much that they don't play games but watch them being played instead.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFhu6AlXaVs
Pyramid head
Banned
He praised the 'brushed over' points you mention in the video. It didn't score four points for nothing.another tool youtube reviewer cashing in on trendy internet hate
Sad that the good parts of the game like story, presentation,soundtrack and fun gunplay are just brushed over while people make such a huge deal about game length and QTEs. Never understood why people are so obsessed with having a bunch of padding and filler i ntheir games which is what the majority of long games have in them.
NullPointer
Member
I'd have a hard time coming up with areas that weren't madly impressive.
OK, that one manhole you climb out of when chasing the first lycan. That one tiny slice of a moment actually looked bad.
Everything else though? Literally every other area and angle in the game? Gobsmacking.
Reallink
Member
You're mixing up marketing with design. Marketing pushed the game as an action TPS cause it's what sells. What's clear is the game was never designed to be Gears of War. It's funny you should use those examples cause the Order is very much a Heavy Rain or Gone Home like experience. Difference is they sprinkled in some TPS to spice up the endless QTE's and exploration you saw in those games. When I say sprinkle, I mean sprinkle cause there are a like 4 or 5 real shooter encounters the entire game. It would have been trivial for them to have padded the game with hours of nonsense clown car spawning gunplay like Gears or UC, but they did not. This strongly suggests that is not the game they set out to make.
I'm watching the video, and I see a single enemy attacking you again and again from the same direction. You only start getting hit from "other directions" when you randomly spin around while walking in the mazelike area intentionally trying to have the Lycan hit you from behind while never actually trying to face it.
So basically, the only way to pretend the AI is good is to play like you're drunk.
I must have some of my TV settings wrong, because I don't remember seeing the crates so red. They were like, grey for me.
Caayn
Member
AI so good, you need to play like a drunk man in order to fully grasp how great it is.