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Angry Joe The Order 1886 Review.

Vire

Member
Gotta admit that the more I think about it the more I don't understand how this premise of knights vs. supernatural beasts is best served by a third person cover-based shooter.

The more I think about this game or analyze its individual systems the more it unravels. It doesn't undo the enjoyment I've had to date, but its lasting impression is aging more like bread than wine.
Except other games have proved you can do monster/shooter combat well. I can't remember the name of the monster, but one thing that really sticks out to me was that scene in Dead Space 2 in the church area where you fought those an onslaught of those terrifying things.

There's no reason why Lycan combat couldn't have been interesting or a highlight aside from RAD's poor execution.
 

manueldelalas

Time Traveler
Not the type of thread I usually speak up in, but a few things have jumped out at me here. Joe's review really (even moreso than his average one, I'd say) supports the points he's making about the game's traits, both good and bad with nearly incontrovertible examples of what he's talking about in-game. I'm really hard pressed to say he didn't give it a fair shake.

Some of the counterpoints I've seen have been reasonable (that he faulted the design of one combat encounter without trying various attempts to clear it first), while others have been fairly absurd (placing an unfair emphasis on gameplay..?).

A few things keep biting at me though. The first is this omnipresent notion of game reviewers not using "the whole scale." I think this concept began when recurrent, profitable franchises started putting out annual entries that never seem to wind up scoring below a 7.5 or (*gasp*) a 7.0.

But regardless of whether or not reviewers are particularly forgiving with regard to these games, the undying truth of the matter is that they had enough appeal at the start to make them into popular franchises. A fun factor. Once we're in "above average" territory, i.e. something above a 5/10, this tends to be what reviewers draw from in doling out the points.

The fact that these games score consistently in the upper register of the scale doesn't mean the lower isn't being used. Take Gamespot... there are reviewed games with essentially every interval of the scale at a reviewer's disposal in the Gamespot archives.

These games just sort of suck, indiscriminately and hard. But someone had to review them. They are scarcely played and quickly forgotten, and it's easy to wind up with the impression that scores like this are never assigned, because we barely ever pay attention to them. I know, I know, the first Assassin's Creed is a terrible, embarrassing game and reviewers just couldn't wait to fellate Ubisoft upon its release. But let me assure you that there is a vast gulf in quality between a game like that and a game like Tony Hawk Ride- and games you can point to as guideposts for every marker in between.

The reasons a game might wind up scoring below average when judged by any reviewer are many, but the idea that scores of 4/10 and below should be reserved for functionally broken games is beyond ludicrous. Some 2/10s, 3/10s and 4/10s that are reviewed have severe bugs and broken designs holding them back and would have otherwise scored higher; others are merely so boring and lackluster in their intended design that they earn no more, even if perfectly stable and bug-free.

In other words, a reviewer may choose whatever criteria they feel appropriate to determine their review score, the number ultimately reflecting nothing other than a quantification of their own feelings about a game.

This is why I used to love the old EGM style of reviews, which actually consisted of three or four separate mini-reviews, each by a different person and with its own score, with the highest accolades reserved for those games that averaged out among these different viewpoints to an 8, 9, or 10- having such universal appeal as to withstand the critiques of multiple voices. Things are different in the Metacritic era, and I do miss that, even if the "they don't use full scale" complaints don't quite resonate with me.

You want to see what it looks like when a truly broken game goes before a reviewer?

Big Rigs is so deeply broken and obviously unfinished that it barely manages to squeeze itself within the confines of what qualifies under even the loosest definition of a "game." It barely has any expressed limits or goals, and lacks even the inclusion of a failure state despite being a racing game in theory. It earned that 1 point almost wholly due to the novelty of having such a hilariously unplayable product put on a reviewer's desk to be taken seriously. For broken games, being reviewed and scored at all is an absolute luxury.

My point is: Gamespot gave The Order a 5/10. And there are a LOT of games in the spread between that 5 and the aforementioned 1.

For Angry Joe, The Order instead comes in one notch lower down. That shouldn't be a controversial or unacceptable notion, to anyone. He explains precisely how he arrived at this number to represent his viewpoint. Condemning this range to only be used for products with broken functionality is so restrictive as to make the idea of using a numerical scale even more meaningless than it already is.

The one last thing I wanted to revisit was that tweet from one of the founders of the developer that made The Order:

I couldn't believe this... a dev making a personal stake in the critical reception of a game is unusual, but I had to know what it was that he felt significant enough to specifically call attention to, in a "here's the final word" sense.

So I watched it (this review). The whole thing.

And... fuck. It isn't even a review, first of all- it's a rebuttal. From the very outset, it takes the position that critical reviews of the game are wrong and here's why. That's a terrible, meritless, cringeworthy approach to reviewing a game. It belies that the content of the review won't be primarily informed by the reviewer's own experience with the game, but a need to counter what other people have already said about it.

It only gets worse from there. The capstone, in my opinion, is this screengrab toward the very end:
Even if I can manage to get past the lack of even token maturity on display here ("It's just like what Angry Joe does, isn't it?"), the IDIOT review tagline he's taking aim at doesn't say a goddamn thing about Ready at Dawn delivering a different product than was advertised or promised. Nothing! The criticism is that it does not live up to its own potential (which may be considerable), and this is something you can recognize in a game even if you hadn't even heard of it before picking up the controller.

I didn't really have any feelings one way or another about Ready at Dawn until seeing that tweet and watching that review. I know that having a lackluster reception must be very difficult for people who have poured their hearts into creating something. But by hitching their wagon to this guy, they've really generated a lot of ill will in me that wasn't there before. I mean, just take the hit. There's no reason to go out calling attention to the reviews that explicitly aim to stand against consensus in the first place, but when it includes as many abhorrent conclusions as this one... I've gone from neutral to actively wary of their future endeavors. :-/
This is a great post and should not be ignored.
 
Except other games have proved you can do monster/shooter combat well. I can't remember the name of the monster, but one thing that really sticks out to me was that scene in Dead Space 2 in the church area where you fought those an onslaught of those terrifying things.
Its specifically the cover-based shooting I'm questioning. You're not really about hugging cover when fighting werewolves or other unnamed dark denizens that clamber and bite and swoop.

It makes all kinds of sense when you spend the majority of your time fighting humans with guns of their own, but that's not really the selling point of The Order, is it?

I didn't play much Dead Space, but I don't remember it being about taking cover either, not until DS3 I think, where people complained about fighting too many humans.
 

Vire

Member
Its specifically the cover-based shooting I'm questioning. You're not really about hugging cover when fighting werewolves or other unnamed dark denizens that clamber and bite and swoop.

It makes all kinds of sense when you spend the majority of your time fighting humans with guns of their own, but that's not really the selling point of The Order, is it?

I didn't play much Dead Space, but I don't remember it being about taking cover either, not until DS3 I think, where people complained about fighting too many humans.
Gotcha, yeah Dead Space 1/2 didn't have a cover system like the one seen in The Order. Might have been better off without it..

Even then though, have the monster surprise you by coming behind you if you are camping out in cover for too long. Something, anything... other than the ridiculously mundane AI patterns that are in this game.
 

Jigorath

Banned
I'm so disappointed with Ready at Dawn. 4 years of development and all we got was a 6 hour campaign with no multiplayer or extra modes. I don't mind short games as long as they do something innovative like Portal or Journey. But this is just a bog standard 3rd person shooter. Ready at Dawn must have put most of their time and effort into the graphics which makes me seriously question their competence as dev team. I really enjoyed Daxter and the God of War games so it's a shame that they've dropped the ball so hard on their first big console project.
 

Elitist1945

Member
I'm so disappointed with Ready at Dawn. 4 years of development and all we got was a 6 hour campaign with no multiplayer or extra modes. I don't mind short games as long as they do something innovative like Portal or Journey. But this is just a bog standard 3rd person shooter. Ready at Dawn must have put most of their time and effort into the graphics which makes me seriously question their competence as dev team. I really enjoyed Daxter and the God of War games so it's a shame that they've dropped the ball so hard on their first big console project.

You do know they built the engine from scratch right? Its not like that happens overnight.
 
any remaining interest i had in this game was gone after i got done watching this review. I was always skeptical of RAD, they never made anything original, just worked on other people's ideas. Daxter was awful, but the two GoW games they made were good.

They have much to learn, but I doubt Sony will work with them again.
 

Jigorath

Banned
It was more or less an explanation to your "focused on graphics" comment.


It didn't really need an explanation. They spent way too much time on the technical side of things rather than the gameplay side. Nobody forced them to build a new engine and I don't accept that as an excuse.
 
Gotcha, yeah Dead Space 1/2 didn't have a cover system like the one seen in The Order. Might have been better off without it..

Even then though, have the monster surprise you by coming behind you if you are camping out in cover for too long. Something, anything... other than the ridiculously mundane AI patterns that are in this game.
The problem is that the controls on the order did not afford the agility that the player would need to combat more agile lycans or enemies that can rush from cover to cover, the folks at RAD need to spend more time revamping the basic controls to tailor it to more interesting enemies and encounters.
 

Cheech

Member
Just watched it, yep hes right. The game as a game is bland and boring.

Im kicking myself for preordaining this game months in advance on PSN. I had much much enjoyment out of drive club, and DC is not precisely exiting either with its grind-a-ton progress mechanics.

Yeah, after the shit sandwich of Destiny and Halo MCC, I'm done preordering digital games forever. My condolences.
 
Just watched it, yep hes right. The game as a game is bland and boring.

Im kicking myself for preordaining this game months in advance on PSN. I had much much enjoyment out of drive club, and DC is not precisely exiting either with its grind-a-ton progress mechanics.

Take comfort you at least didn't spend $150 on it.

102265CELG.jpg
 

mujun

Member
To people that thought the story was good how exactly was it good? Same goes to the people that think its bad. I read a lot of comments and very few people takes the time to explain why the its bad or good; they just say its bad or good and continue to talk over one and other when they debate or argue.

I explained in the OT when I posted up my own personal review.

First off, not much happened. It felt like there was a bunch of useless exposition.

Second, some stuff wasn't well explained. It would have been nice to get some intro to the rebels and why you are fighting them along with info on the real enemy early on.

Third, a bunch of plot points seemed like they were included in service of gameplay or level design. You need to be stealthy but then hack the shit out of every guy you find and murder the pilot and crew on the blimp. Galahad refuses to bring up the impending vampire invasion despite being asked about his weird behaviour on numerous occasions.

I thought that the actual setting was great, liked some of the characters (rebel leader, Galahad, Marquis, etc) and the art design is great, too. The story and plot however I found to be mediocre at best.
 

JNA

Banned
Take comfort you at least didn't spend $150 on it.

102265CELG.jpg

Yeah I had that edition pre ordered for months and it was sold out for practically that long too. I cancelled it a few days before the game came out and it seems I clearly made the correct choice.

Not only that, but before I cancelled my pre order, the edition was suddenly available and still is. It seems that length controversy really hurt the pontential sales, and the aftermath being that the game is both short and bad.
 

hesido

Member
Yeah I had that edition pre ordered for months and it was sold out for practically that long too. I cancelled it a few days before the game came out and it seems I clearly made the correct choice.

Not only that, but before I cancelled my pre order, the edition was suddenly available and still is. It seems that length controversy really hurt the pontential sales, and the aftermath being that the game is both short and bad.

Seems like a lot of cancelled pre-orders. I'm guessing some of them were scalpers, if limited collection editions are scalpable...
 

NEO0MJ

Member
Seems like a lot of cancelled pre-orders. I'm guessing some of them were scalpers, if limited collection editions are scalpable...

Depending on the game yeah they can get pretty fucking expensive. Scalpers probably saw how bad reception was among the hardcore and thought it would be a waste to buy it in hopes of selling it for a high price in the future.
 

OsirisBlack

Banned
Yeah I had that edition pre ordered for months and it was sold out for practically that long too. I cancelled it a few days before the game came out and it seems I clearly made the correct choice.

Not only that, but before I cancelled my pre order, the edition was suddenly available and still is. It seems that length controversy really hurt the pontential sales, and the aftermath being that the game is both short and bad.

The controversy surrounding the game did indeed hurt the games sales. The aftermath surrounding this short and
good
game is pretty odd. Seems to be one of the you either like it or you don't type of affairs.
 
Y'know I actually quite like his reviews and in this case he's spot on.

I'm playing through the game just now and yeah it looks amazing but....ummm.... It's kinda boring.

I don't feel any attachment to the characters. I like them, but I don't care about them. Why are there half breeds? What's their purpose? Why are they teamed up with the Rebels? Why are the rebels rebelling?

For me the start of the game summed it up perfectly and set up what the game was going to be.

QTE fest.

I actually groaned in disappointment when the game opened with QTE.
 

Derpyduck

Banned
Yeah I had that edition pre ordered for months and it was sold out for practically that long too. I cancelled it a few days before the game came out and it seems I clearly made the correct choice.

Not only that, but before I cancelled my pre order, the edition was suddenly available and still is. It seems that length controversy really hurt the pontential sales, and the aftermath being that the game is both short and bad.

Word-of-mouth and the reviews are definitely hurting the game in the US. I haven't seen a high profile new game fall out of the Amazon hourly top 100 this fast before.
 

JohnCYQ

Member
I think he's trying to turn it into some sort of formula.

I disagree myself.

If I went to a restaurant, and across the board everything was of a high standard, except for the fact that they served me up a literal nugget of shit, I'd still rate the restaurant well under 5 out of 10.

Elements don't exist in a vacuum. Bad elements can drag good ones down and vice versa.

Most things are not just a sum of their parts.

I think its more like:

You go to a restaurant.

- It has great ambiance (well designed interior, good lighting, general atmosphere etc)

- The plates/utensils are clean and well-maintained (the spoons are not bent, no scratch marks or stains etc)

- The staff are all well-dressed, friendly and knowledgeable (ie they are able to give proper replies when you ask about the dishes that they serve).

- The food is served within a reasonable amount of time (ie not taking 1 hour).

- The food is presented in a very appealing manner (not simply smacked onto the plate randomly)

- But the food tastes terrible (lycan fights) - bland/average (QTE galore, general AI design etc).

Based on what some people are saying in this thread, this restaurant does not deserved to be rated below 5/10 due to the other factors being top-tier (ambiance, staff etc).
 

mujun

Member
I think its more like:

You go to a restaurant.

- It has great ambiance (well designed interior, good lighting, general atmosphere etc)

- The plates/utensils are clean and well-maintained (the spoons are not bent, no scratch marks or stains etc)

- The staff are all well-dressed, friendly and knowledgeable (ie they are able to give proper replies when you ask about the dishes that they serve).

- The food is served within a reasonable amount of time (ie not taking 1 hour).

- The food is presented in a very appealing manner (not simply smacked onto the plate randomly)

- But the food tastes terrible (lycan fights) - bland/average (QTE galore, general AI design etc).

Based on what some people are saying in this thread, this restaurant does not deserved to be rated below 5/10 due to the other factors being top-tier (ambiance, staff etc).

Like I said in my post, I wouldn't go to that restaurant and I'd rank it lower than 5.

Weighting is a thing. The restaurant is less than the sum of its parts for me.
 
I think its more like:

You go to a restaurant.

- It has great ambiance (well designed interior, good lighting, general atmosphere etc)

- The plates/utensils are clean and well-maintained (the spoons are not bent, no scratch marks or stains etc)

- The staff are all well-dressed, friendly and knowledgeable (ie they are able to give proper replies when you ask about the dishes that they serve).

- The food is served within a reasonable amount of time (ie not taking 1 hour).

- The food is presented in a very appealing manner (not simply smacked onto the plate randomly)

- But the food tastes terrible (lycan fights) - bland/average (QTE galore, general AI design etc).

Based on what some people are saying in this thread, this restaurant does not deserved to be rated below 5/10 due to the other factors being top-tier (ambiance, staff etc).

- The waiters frequently come up and take the silverware out of your hands and cut the food, serve it to you, and move your jaw for you to chew.

- Occasionally an especially delicious looking piece of steak or lobster is presented, but after a bite or two it is immediately removed from the table, never to be seen again.
 

hesido

Member
Anyway, we can mostly agree that RAD has set the bar low enough for the next one to be better than this one. (Although, like I said, I think 4/10 is unfair due to reasons I stated and most don't seem to agree, lol)
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
disagree about the ending though. Yes it leaves some things to ponder, and yes those things would lead nicely into a sequel. But IMO it doesn't leave any critical questions unanswered - the main threads of the story are closed and the open questions are more about what will happen to
Galahad
and what will the effects of
Martial law
be? They don't need answering in this game and this game isn't any less good by not answering them.

I don't like being given blue balls by a bad cliffhanger, but I didn't finish this game feeling like that at all.
 
Thinking of picking this and Driveclub up now that they are both about ten quid, but I hear a lot more love for Driveclub than I do The Order, perhaps because the former has had so much post-launch support that it sounds like it's practically had an expansion pack - I guess that's harder to do for something like The Order, but they could probably have added some collectibles and a new game plus or whatever.

At £10, I can probably enjoy it for what it is, the exception being QTEs which should not exist in games, simple as that. I can't really understand how they made it through planning let alone development and testing.


Do you guys have high hopes for a sequel? The engine looks incredible, the world seems brilliant, the setting has so much potential... Seems to me that there's no reason there couldn't be a GOTY made from those ingredients?
 

m@cross

Member
Thinking of picking this and Driveclub up now that they are both about ten quid, but I hear a lot more love for Driveclub than I do The Order, perhaps because the former has had so much post-launch support that it sounds like it's practically had an expansion pack - I guess that's harder to do for something like The Order, but they could probably have added some collectibles and a new game plus or whatever.

At £10, I can probably enjoy it for what it is, the exception being QTEs which should not exist in games, simple as that. I can't really understand how they made it through planning let alone development and testing.


Do you guys have high hopes for a sequel? The engine looks incredible, the world seems brilliant, the setting has so much potential... Seems to me that there's no reason there couldn't be a GOTY made from those ingredients?

While you dislike them, a portion of the population either likes them or simply doesn't mind them. You phrase this like it is a game bug or something that is a universally considered bad design.

That aside, the game is worth about $30 to me as someone who doesn't mind QTE. For someone who hates them, it might be worthless, but if you can stomach them the game is pretty solid albeit short. DC is excellent and worth full retail imo.
 
While you dislike them, a portion of the population either likes them or simply doesn't mind them. You phrase this like it is a game bug or something that is a universally considered bad design.

I don't know man.... I don't think there can be many gameplay mechanics that people dislike more, but sure.

Where can you get The Order for 10 quid?

DC was £10 on Amazon the other day and I saw the order for £14 in a Cash Converters. Both pre-owned ofc.
 
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