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[ScOULaris]

DotA 2: Reborn's open beta started yesterday, and with it came the "official" introduction of custom games. Now, we're only a day into the beta, so there are still tons of kinks to be worked out with custom games and their lobbies, but I'm here to focus more on the potential down the line.

From what they've shown so far, the map editor looks to be a fantastic balance of complexity/flexibility and intuitiveness. It allows for pretty much anything to be imported and animated into the game, and the possibilities for game modes that differ wildly from the core gameplay of DotA are practically endless. It will surely take some time before high-quality custom maps that are polished and fun start trickling in (most maps now are unfinished and buggy), but I think it's great that Valve is releasing some custom games of their own to show people how it's done.

Secondly, I love that they implemented a Brood War/Warcraft 3-style lobby system for custom games, complete with traditional chat rooms and everything. This has clearly been designed by people who were heavily involved in the Warcraft 3 mapping days, and I think they really get it when it comes to cultivating a communal feeling and making it easy to jump right into whatever custom games you enjoy. Basically, they went the opposite direction of Blizzard in recent years.

Blizzard is essentially dead to me for how they killed the custom maps community that they had cultivated with both Brood War and Warcraft 3 with their mishandling of the Arcade and over-complicated editor in Starcraft 2. In the wake of their bad decisions, the Use Map Settings Brood War community basically fizzled out, as did the Warcraft 3 custom maps community to a slightly lesser extent. With DotA 2's humongous player base and these smart decisions regarding custom games, I can't help but feel excited for a potential return of the types of communities scene in the days of Brood War.

What do you all think? Could we see custom maps in DotA 2 take off to Brood War or Warcraft 3 levels?

Links and Resources:

• DotA 2: Reborn - Custom Games - Official announcement page for custom games
• Overthrow Video - First official custom map from Valve, themselves
• The Curse of River's End developer thread - Very promising custom map in development

 

[Cameron122]

Rts mods to come full circle!!

 

[Tagyhag]

I just hope they put the Warcraft 3 mp so we go full circle.

I'm personally interested in what Dungeon Crawlers or Life MMO's will come out of this.

 

[ScOULaris]

I just hope they put the Warcraft 3 mp so we go full circle.

I'm personally interested in what Dungeon Crawlers or Life MMO's will come out of this.

While you'd think that the base DotA 2 engine wouldn't allow for much compared to the RTS engines of Brood War and W3, the editor is so open that I think we'll be seeing limitless variety down the line. I definitely think we'll see a return of classic custom map genres like RPG maps, tower defense, hide n' seel, sports... etc. Sky's the limit with time and talented mapmakers.

 

[Gorger]

We can only hope. Star Craft - Warcraft 3 custom games was the best.

 

[Steel]

If it does, blizzard will be embarrassed as hell....

Spoiler

And hopefully greenlight Warcraft IV with proper custom maps ASAP.

I don't see DOTA 2 bringing back stuff like War of the Lost Kingdoms though.

 

[Interfectum]

Bring on Footie Wars

 

[Linkark07]

If it does, blizzard will be embarrassed as hell....

Spoiler

And hopefully greenlight Warcraft IV with proper custom maps ASAP.

Bring on Footie Wars

This so much. Cant wait to play those wars again.

 

[ScOULaris]

If it does, blizzard will be embarrassed as hell....

Good. Fuck 'em.

 

[RukusProvider]

If it does, blizzard will be embarrassed as hell....

Spoiler

And hopefully greenlight Warcraft IV with proper custom maps ASAP.

I don't see DOTA 2 bringing back stuff like War of the Lost Kingdoms though.

Blizzards already embarrassing. Playing HOTS, all they want to highlight is how you can buy things.

Oh want to play a team work oriented game? cool but we don't have voice chat. sorry.

 

[NaDannMaGoGo]

Nope, because just as in Warcraft 3, everyone will still just play Dota!

Spoiler

Yeh it'll probably be quite successful and I'm happy to see Blizzard squirm. God I was so excited about getting to mod Sc2 after Wc3 and they just slapped the modding community across the face.

 

[LurkerPrime]

I think the barrier to entry due to scripting and such will kneecap any chance it has at really taking off in the way that SC or WC3's map-making scene did, but it would sure be nice if it did anyways. It also depends a lot on how Valve plans to monetise the custom maps and how they're going to policing IP infringement/stolen assets/etc within the community.

Thinking back, SC and WC3's custom map output would be entirely different if infringement were restricted; DotA itself might never have taken off, being vaguely based on Starcraft and Dynasty Warriors UMS games made in Brood War, and clearly inspired by the traditional MOBA set-up pioneered by infringement city Tides of Blood in Warcraft 3, which had such MOBA luminaries as Leto Atreides starring in it. And of course, the Phantom Lancer (FFX's own Kimahri) would not exist in his current form, or perhaps at all.

As it stands, I see it being close to SC2's map making scene, where only semi-professional map makers stand any chance of making a functional game out of the thing. This will drastically reduce the output, which will reduce the community around it, which will in turn make it wither down into nothing but a small community hovering around a competent-yet-uninspired map or two, with many more that have no community whatsoever.

 

[ScOULaris]

Nope, because just as in Warcraft 3, everyone will still just play Dota![/SPOILER]

Wait, what? I don't know about Warcraft 3, but with Brood War the vast majority of players on Bnet years after release were playing UMS maps.

I think the barrier to entry due to scripting and such will kneecap any chance it has at really taking off in the way that SC or WC3's map-making scene did, but it would sure be nice if it did anyways. It also depends a lot on how Valve plans to monetise the custom maps and how they're going to policing IP infringement/stolen assets/etc within the community.

Thinking back, SC and WC3's custom map output would be entirely different if infringement were restricted; DotA itself might never have taken off, being vaguely based on Starcraft and Dynasty Warriors UMS games made in Brood War, and clearly inspired by the traditional MOBA set-up pioneered by infringement city Tides of Blood in Warcraft 3, which had such MOBA luminaries as Leto Atreides starring in it. And of course, the Phantom Lancer (FFX's own Kimahri) would not exist in his current form, or perhaps at all.

As it stands, I see it being close to SC2's map making scene, where only semi-professional map makers stand any chance of making a functional game out of the thing. This will drastically reduce the output, which will reduce the community around it, which will in turn make it wither down into nothing but a small community hovering around a competent-yet-uninspired map or two, with many more that have no community whatsoever.

Hm, I worry about this too. The editor looks to be more approachable than the SC2 one, so that's a good start. But I agree that it might end up being too daunting for the average person to jump in and make something worth playing. Time will tell.

I think if Valve keeps making quality custom maps to show the community how it's done, that'd be a good start.

 

[BearPawB]

It's been a great experience so far.
Overthrow plays better than anything I ever did in sc2 arcade

There are more competent coders and scripters than ever. I won't ever be able to do anything, but people with talent will make good things, just like they always have

 

[ScOULaris]

It's been a great experience so far.
Overthrow plays better than anything I ever did in sc2 arcade

There are more competent coders and scripters than ever. I won't ever be able to do anything, but people with talent will make good things, just like they always have

This is why we need for Valve to keep churning out custom games as an example/inspiration to other mapmakers.

 

[Razzer]

It's up in the air for now, but I'm seeing good signs. A combination of mods that are fun to play and mods that are impressive for the amount of work needed to make them already exist. Soon we may start getting parts that are both large ins scale and fun to play! I'm not really bothered by whether anything gets big and becomes the new Dota, I'm just grateful for all these fun games.

 

[Deadstar]

Dota 2 chess sounds fantastic.

 

[bounchfx]

I'm fairly possible it will, plus more. It's just so open and friendly to use. I'm fucking stoked about it because I spent countless nights just fucking around with brood war custom games, and this looks exactly like the return to form I've been hoping for.

PC gaming got a delicious kick in the nuts of variety again once people have had time to go crazy with these tools. With any luck we might see another HUGE mod within a couple years.

 

[me0wish]

This needs official server support. Takes ages for a game to start and then someone leaves or the game lags.

 

[injurai]

I think the barrier to entry due to scripting and such will kneecap any chance it has at really taking off in the way that SC or WC3's map-making scene did, but it would sure be nice if it did anyways. It also depends a lot on how Valve plans to monetise the custom maps and how they're going to policing IP infringement/stolen assets/etc within the community.

Thinking back, SC and WC3's custom map output would be entirely different if infringement were restricted; DotA itself might never have taken off, being vaguely based on Starcraft and Dynasty Warriors UMS games made in Brood War, and clearly inspired by the traditional MOBA set-up pioneered by infringement city Tides of Blood in Warcraft 3, which had such MOBA luminaries as Leto Atreides starring in it. And of course, the Phantom Lancer (FFX's own Kimahri) would not exist in his current form, or perhaps at all.

As it stands, I see it being close to SC2's map making scene, where only semi-professional map makers stand any chance of making a functional game out of the thing. This will drastically reduce the output, which will reduce the community around it, which will in turn make it wither down into nothing but a small community hovering around a competent-yet-uninspired map or two, with many more that have no community whatsoever.

I think you severely underestimate how many proficient computer scientists play Dota 2. How quickly someone who has never coded in their life can come up to speed with scripting when it's within a singular runtime environment. How many young kids made amazing things with the old Source tools. How many adults and professionals contribute to mod communities as an after work hobby. How just a few people can make really impressive things, and just how large the Dota 2 community is to drive all of this.

 

[ScOULaris]

This needs official server support. Takes ages for a game to start and then someone leaves or the game lags.

I agree with this.

But on the other hand, how did it work with Brood War and Warcraft 3? Weren't those P2P connections that switched hosts dynamically when the host would leave mid-game?

 

[Radec]

This needs official server support. Takes ages for a game to start and then someone leaves or the game lags.

this.

 

[LurkerPrime]

I agree with this.

But on the other hand, how did it work with Brood War and Warcraft 3? Weren't those P2P connections that switched hosts dynamically when the host would leave mid-game?

P2P. Remember the lag screens, and how amazing it was in WC3 when you could chat during them! And remember the drophacks where you'd be left all alone.

I want to say WC3 had some weird dedicated server hack that rose partway through the DotA craze. Don't remember the specifics, though.

 

[ScottSullivan]

If they bring back MTG Custom game from Brood War days I'm in

 

[Ferrio]

Gem TD, do it.

Also some of those co-op MOBA games. The ones with hordes of creeps constantly attacking.

 

[ScOULaris]

P2P. Remember the lag screens, and how amazing it was in WC3 when you could chat during them! And remember the drophacks where you'd be left all alone.

I want to say WC3 had some weird dedicated server hack that rose partway through the DotA craze. Don't remember the specifics, though.

I can't speak for WC3, but I don't recall the game ending when the host would leave in Brood War. Maybe I'm misremembering.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

This needs official server support. Takes ages for a game to start and then someone leaves or the game lags.

might be asking too much. we're barely getting stable servers now.

 

[ink4n3]

Bring on the Tower Defense mods. I liked Element TD and Line Tower Wars.

 

[K.Sabot]

Yeah we're gonna need Battle.net / Counterstrike style server browser if this is to truly take off.

I don't feel like finding 9 friends for Pudge Wars

 

[Sanjay]

Dota 2 chess sounds fantastic.

I would love this.

And maybe otherboard games too and one day Mario party.

 

[StrangeTaco]

If they bring back Island Defense I'm going to end up logging another 300 hours in Dota 2.

Cautiously hype

 

[ScOULaris]

might be asking too much. we're barely getting stable servers now.

Then maybe region-locking would help the situation. Right now you have people with shitty connections from all over the world trying to connect to a custom game session together, and when someone inevitably gets dropped the whole game is canceled and has to start anew.

Yeah we're gonna need Battle.net / Counterstrike style server browser if this is to truly take off.

I don't feel like finding 9 friends for Pudge Wars

Pictured in the OP:

 

[Exuro]

Yeah we're gonna need Battle.net / Counterstrike style server browser if this is to truly take off.

I don't feel like finding 9 friends for Pudge Wars

What's different about Dota 2's custom games server browser?

 

[Steel]

P2P. Remember the lag screens, and how amazing it was in WC3 when you could chat during them! And remember the drophacks where you'd be left all alone.

I want to say WC3 had some weird dedicated server hack that rose partway through the DotA craze. Don't remember the specifics, though.

P2P worked fine if you got someone with a decent connection(or had a decent hosting connection yourself). Generally people who have sucky hosting connections would A server side solution would just end up like Starcraft 2

I can't speak for WC3, but I don't recall the game ending when the host would leave in Brood War. Maybe I'm misremembering.

You're right about Brood war. War III did have people getting dropped out by host leaving, though. Warcraft III did have some lag problems too, but they were worth the trouble for what we got. Honestly I think that's one of the major reasons they went to a server solution in Starcraft 2(which ruined everything)

 

[marrec]

All I ask for is a faithful recreation of Hero Line Wars.

 

[Vital Tundra]

Seems like it will. The tools are there.

If you build it, they will come.

 

[goober]

It would succeed if I can get into a game!!

But seriously, I had so much fun with WC3 mods. I remember playing one mod with all Anime characters in a free for all.

 

[Anno]

I always thought it would be amazing if there was a longer and more complicated version of the tutorial levels presented as a singleplayer or co-op action RPG. I'm sure something like that was made back in W3, so hopefully it will be here, too.

 

[Steel]

I always thought it would be amazing if there was a longer and more complicated version of the tutorial levels presented as a singleplayer or co-op action RPG. I'm sure something like that was made back in W3, so hopefully it will be here, too.

Tons of stuff like that was in WC 3.

 

[SoulUnison]

Bring on the Tower Defense mods. I liked Element TD and Line Tower Wars.

This is what I thought of immediately when I heard about Custom Games.
Line Tower Wars and Elemental TD, specifically, even.

 

[Tanoooki]

How do you host custom matches? Somehow I was made host for some reason and upon launching the game no one was able to connect.

Is there permissions I need to set within Windows Firewall or something to that effect?

 

[Tanoooki]

Is this running Source 2 engine? I don't really see much difference from it and the original Dota 2.

 

[ScOULaris]

You're right about Brood war. War III did have people getting dropped out by host leaving, though. Warcraft III did have some lag problems too, but they were worth the trouble for what we got. Honestly I think that's one of the major reasons they went to a server solution in Starcraft 2(which ruined everything)

So why the hell doesn't everyone just do whatever Brood War did?!

Was it dynamic reassignment of the host when the original host would leave the game? It worked seamlessly if that was the case.

 

[Steel]

So why the hell doesn't everyone just do whatever Brood War did?!

Was it dynamic reassignment of the host when the original host would leave the game? It worked seamlessly if that was the case.

I haven't a clue to be honest. I was wondering that myself with WC 3.

 

[Edwardo]

I'd love to get some pals together for a lil Uther Party.

 

[Syf]

I expect it will. Installed the beta just to play some custom games despite not playing the main game.

 

[Moonlight]

If it's possible to recreate something like Azeroth Wars for Dota 2, I'm prepared to dump my life into the game.

 

[K.Sabot]

Pictured in the OP:

huh i never found that in my time i played yesterday, i'm sated.

 

[ashecitism]

Is this running Source 2 engine? I don't really see much difference from it and the original Dota 2.

Just because it's running on the newest engine doesn't there's going to be much graphical updates. This was more about optimization and better mod tools.

 

[GenericBadGuy]

I will say that as someone who has absolutely zero interest in DoTA and MOBAs in general if such a thing becomes a reality I will jump into DoTA 2 Reborn as soon as humanly possible. I went into Starcraft 2 thinking the custom game scene would be like Warcraft 3 and got punched in the gut pretty hard. I would be overjoyed to see the old custom game scene come back.