I'll never forgive Blizzard for what they did. I wish SC2 had never happened. I'm sure the Brood War community would still be thriving if it hadn't.
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Will DotA 2: Reborn's custom games bring back the old Brood War/Warcraft 3 magic?
- Thread starter ScOULaris
- Start date
I'll never forgive Blizzard for what they did. I wish SC2 had never happened. I'm sure the Brood War community would still be thriving if it hadn't.
I mean for reference, the TF2 map tools are incredibly unintuitive without the use of community tools (how do i make water? is a mantra of newcomers, and with good reason) and there is no support for custom maps on quickplay, yet there are tons of well made community maps out there, many of which valve adopted to add to the game "officially". I would says that many community maps and map tools far exceed valve's homegrown maps.
I think custom maps in Dota will take off in a big way. Its also worth keeping in mind that this is day 2 of an optional beta - the streamlining will come with time and an official launch.
I think custom maps in Dota will take off in a big way. Its also worth keeping in mind that this is day 2 of an optional beta - the streamlining will come with time and an official launch.
Queen of Pain, Wraith King, Chaos Knight, uhhh, and a bunch of Meepos.
GenericBadGuy
Member
Oh wow I looked into it a bit and someone already has a version of Elemental Tower Defense going!
https://twitter.com/Jicyphex/status/523532101673824258
Looks like I'm going to jump on the DoTA2 bandwagon. I hope this continues, and considering Valve's work with integrating the community I am confident it will. I'm more excited about this than most E3 news!
https://twitter.com/Jicyphex/status/523532101673824258
Looks like I'm going to jump on the DoTA2 bandwagon. I hope this continues, and considering Valve's work with integrating the community I am confident it will. I'm more excited about this than most E3 news!
Shining Sunshine
Banned
Nope. Strangely, Starcraft 2 couldn't bring back the magic.
Doubt it will happen here with even less.
Doubt it will happen here with even less.
Starcraft 2's editor was far too complex and its Arcade system was the worst abomination to ever grace a game.
This at least has a good editor and traditional lobbies/chat rooms like the olden days. I think it's got a real shot at righting SC2's wrongs. Especially considering that this is a completely free game with millions of players already.
How is this in any way 'even less' than Starcraft 2
It won't happen.
Many of the people who were making Warcraft 3 custom maps are working in the games industry now. I worked with quite a few of them at Riot, and I know of several others at indie or major developers.
It used to be that the only way you could easily publish a game was to mod another one. Now there's a million different ways to show off your skills and actually make money on it. We can expect some pretty cool stuff, but don't expect Warcraft 3-level awesomness.
Many of the people who were making Warcraft 3 custom maps are working in the games industry now. I worked with quite a few of them at Riot, and I know of several others at indie or major developers.
It used to be that the only way you could easily publish a game was to mod another one. Now there's a million different ways to show off your skills and actually make money on it. We can expect some pretty cool stuff, but don't expect Warcraft 3-level awesomness.
I don't think it was the editor with SC2 so much. I remember a couple days after release we were already getting FPS's from the map editor in SC2, so people understood how to use it. It was totally the server based matchmaking thing, lack of shared lobby, and lack of being to use IPs like DBZ
Well, I agree that the bolded items were the final nails in the coffin. Both just totally kneecapped the entire scene. But I still argue that the SC2 editor was much more daunting to work with than the Brood War one, so far fewer people wanted to take the time to learn it.
GregLombardi
Member
Do you think that birthrates declined since the Warcraft 3 days, and new people who play games weren't born that want to make games in the 10-20 year old age slot? There are always new people that want to make games IMO. <3
I don't think anyone is expecting ALL of the old warcraft3 modders to come back; I'm sure most have moved on from mods like you say. Regardless, those guys were probably making maps for fun when they were 15-25 and that's potentially what sparked their game dev career. So who's to say a new generation of 15-25 year-olds or passionate modders can't create some original awesome maps or update the old classics?
It was about as complicated as the WC III one and the custom map scene on WC III was great.
LurkerPrime
Member
Unless the unholy death of monetised mods somehow killed Elder Scrolls modding, I don't see where you're coming from. There will always be people that just want to see what they can make, disregarding payment entirely. And for things like IP-infringing total conversions, that's the only way such things can happen.
Battle.net 2.0 launching with Starcraft 2 as a feature-complete Battle.net 0.1 was pretty bad, too.
I couldn't figure out how to make a unit in SC2's map editor...
I'm not saying that there won't be a new generation of modders. I'm saying the old motivations for modding are covered by more avenues of pursuing game development now, whether it's for profit, creative expression, or just for fun. Of course, if you're looking for the Dota 2 version of "Escape from Gay Space", I'm sure there's plenty of kids itching at the opportunity.
"It won't happen.
Many of the people who were making Warcraft 3 custom maps are working in the games industry now. I worked with quite a few of them at Riot, and I know of several others at indie or major developers."
Yes, because if you weren't a WC3 map maker, then you can't make maps for Dota 2.
#geniuslogic
Many of the people who were making Warcraft 3 custom maps are working in the games industry now. I worked with quite a few of them at Riot, and I know of several others at indie or major developers."
Yes, because if you weren't a WC3 map maker, then you can't make maps for Dota 2.
#geniuslogic
Face it Tiger..
Banned
Bring on the RTS mod!
If you spent more time working on your reading comprehension instead of being snarky, it might be helpful.
i'd love to see this.
Hasn't happened yet?
Shining Sunshine
Banned
I don't think the tools were the problem. Some of the games were great.
It was just at that time, real games taken over. When I was playing WW2 custom games on Starcraft, there was nothing like it, but now, there are dozens of games I could play that are like it.
I'm talking about less assets unless Valve is going to make like 50 new units, flying units, tons of tile sets. DotA 2 has WAY less than Starcraft 2.
I don't know the exact numbers, but from what I've gathered it seems like Valve is including tons of extra units, structures, and tilesets for use with the editor. Not to mention you can import any 3D model into the editor and even design custom animations and particle effects too. The possibilities seem pretty vast.
MisterShine
Member
If it spawns a new wave of rts games this will be the ultimate meta. Exciting times.
GenericBadGuy
Member
I have to disagree that people won't make custom mods as creative or complex as back in Warcraft 3. Just by looking at a lot of the Workshop items for many games on Steam now there are a lot of talented people out there. Valve can work the custom maps and gamemodes into the Workshop to make it even easier.
Well I haven't looked myself yet but if that twitter post I linked further up is any indication they are already there.
Well I haven't looked myself yet but if that twitter post I linked further up is any indication they are already there.
Kind of covered this in my other reply, but I'll go into it a bit more.
Successful modding, in the WC3/Dota 2 sense, requires some amount of technical ability and game design sense. This combination of skills makes you uniquely suited for a designer or technical designer position at a lot of studios (which, for a lot of modders, was what they aspire to be when they start modding).
When Warcraft 3 was in its heyday, indie studios weren't really a thing. Physical distribution was the norm. The Eastern and Western markets were completely separate. The only product form was the $50-60 boxed product. F2P was unheard of in the West. Tools were limited.
People mod for a few reasons--as a creative outlet, for the experience, because they love the product, etc. The idea of being a professional game designer was out of reach; game design wasn't even a well-defined role at many studios, and there was no widely accepted career path towards being a game designer (in a lot of ways, there still isn't). That's one of the major reasons mod output in the 90's and early 2000's was so high. Now we have Steam, Kickstarter, digital delivery, various prototyping and game making tools, and a much clearer definition of what the game design role is. It's become much more acceptable and accessible overall--so a talented designer is much less likely to use modding as an avenue for creative expression. It's like telling an amateur musician that 1. you can actually sell your money on iTunes now, and 2. there are schools for music! Will there still be people who put their music out for free? Of course. There's also a lot of professionals who mod now for the *potential* of profit (see Valve's workshop).
So again, it has nothing to do with "the only good modders were WC3 modders". It has to do with the different opportunities available to the current generation of talent.
I made a bunch of tower defense maps in Warcraft III (Zoator TD, Switch TD, Sprout TD), and was very frustrated by Starcraft II's support of custom maps. The tools themselves were fantastic (albeit complex), but the Arcade system imposed a distribution structure that was just impossible to work with. I'm intrigued to see how Valve's approach pans out, and I may toy around with their tools if they seem promising.
AnathemicOne
Banned
I'll be optimistically curious about this as SC2 is a failure regarding UMS. I've not been paying much attention (nor am I in the beta) but how do mechanics of custom games work in Dota 2? Sure alot of UMS maps on Brood War on WC3 were hero-based but a good portion of them were RTS-based with building production (Line tower Wars) and strategy maps were you control armies.
someone is currently working on recreating wc3 in custom games.
Link? I can't seem to find any info on that. I don't see how it'd be possible.
the creator hasn't uploaded anything yet. Just posting gifs on the dota subreddit of his/her progress from time to time http://gfycat.com/TatteredSnappyChipmunk
I'll keep digging, and update as soon as i find more
Hm, interesting. So you can create structures and then use their "abilities" as build commands for units.
Gipsy Danger
Member
I didn't even touch the Starcraft Arcade stuff, I was already well out of Starcraft 2 by that point but what was the reason it failed so badly?
Damn. That's pretty impressive. I love seeing how mapmakers work around all sorts of engine limitations to do completely different stuff. Really cool.
Someone also made a flight simulator kind of mode
http://gfycat.com/MeekSmallGemsbuck
http://gfycat.com/ObeseEnormousAplomadofalcon
Really, i'm looking forward to the kind of stuff that gets produced.
GenericBadGuy
Member
Well Steel mentioned it earlier:
The system used worked in a way that only custom maps that were commonly used were on the top of the list, and you chose from a list - you couldn't make your own rooms with your own title like "Fun TD come play" or whatnot. I think it was even called the "popularity system" officially (don't remember). It was almost as if you had to have your own marketing team to get your map played.
That stuff in those gifs is pretty incredible. Love the creativity of the modding scene.
You know, when you put it like that, I can understand. The chances of us being blessed with another extremely talented designer like Icefrog are pretty low. I've played HotS quite a bit now, and I'm always disappointed that The Lost Vikings are nowhere as cool or creative as Meepo. Icefrog is a really good hero designer and map creator.
The thing is, there were dozens of Icefrog-caliber mapmakers in the Brood War scene throughout the decade following that game's release. DotA is the highest profile custom map of all time due to its creation of a genre outside its game of origin, but the fact is there were tons of talented creators working within both the Brood War and WC3 communities for many years.
I think that to an extent we'll never see the custom maps scene return to that former glory. The industry was just very different then. The fact that IP infringement is enforced is enough to eliminate much of what made those olden days so remarkable. But I think that the introduction of custom games to DotA is the biggest opportunity we've seen since WC3 for the scene to re-emerge. The huge player base, great editing tools, and ease of distribution with the Steam Workshop and custom lobbies all add up to a perfect storm of potential growth IMO.
Those are my two cents, anyway. I'll admit that I'm biased because I desperately want to relive the glory days of Brood War Use Map Settings.
I think the time has really passed for the golden age of custom games. The most popular and meaningful genres that UMS inspired (MoBA, Tower Defense) have gone on to have their own games for the most part, and provide far more polished and interesting experiences since they are standalone and don't have to work within the limitations of the engine.
There will always be some nostalgia as a call (Wintermaul hooo!) but ultimately not enough people and not enough incentive for it to grow to the size of BW and WAR3:TFT
There will always be some nostalgia as a call (Wintermaul hooo!) but ultimately not enough people and not enough incentive for it to grow to the size of BW and WAR3:TFT
This post reads like a knife through my heart and soul. :'(
A Black Falcon
Member
Agreed. If this happens, I guess I'll have to install DOTA 2.
Why not take part in bringing the scene back to life? The game and its open beta are completely free, after all. I just tried out a cool defense map where two 5-man teams compete to survive waves of enemies until one side succumbs to the horde. It was pretty cool.
Overthrow is lots of fun too. It's like DotA on speed.
i'm cautiously optimistic. Valve needs to release a lot of extra art assets to work with, i have this strange fascination with official art assets and i feel that as talented as the community is, the artistic style that valve's created for the game will be muddled/polarizing when the community starts making their own building/unit models. it can already be seen with a lot of the (imo) unfitting sets they've come out with for the heroes. it's a pretty trivial complaint but i know it will be something that will irrationally bother me to no end. still crazy excited for all the possibilities.