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"I'm a Christian who believes the Bible, and I don't believe in homosexual marriage."

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So basically, they interpret the bible in a different way than what is the most popular interpretation. Hey that's a good thing, I think religion needs to be accommodating. I would even support it if love and community became the central theme and not judgement and consequences in the after life.

Many are already focusing on just that.

Quite a few have refocused on love and community and jettisoned what are essentially medieval ideas of hell that were informed more by dante than the actual Biblical text.

Again, that's a whole other thread.
 
Many are already focusing on just that.

Quite a few have refocused on love and community and jettisoned what are essentially medieval ideas of hell that were informed more by dante than the actual Biblical text.

Again, that's a whole other thread.

Thanks for the explanation. Apologies if I came across as rude.
 

Mecha

Member
So basically, they interpret the bible in a different way than what is the most popular interpretation. Hey that's a good thing, I think religion needs to be accommodating. I would even support it if love and community became the central theme and not judgement and consequences in the after life.

My favorite Christian denomination, liberal quakers, say this about their belief in the bible:

Most Quakers do not consider the Bible to be the final authority or the only source of sacred wisdom. We read it in the context of other religious writings and sources of wisdom, including the Light Within and worshipful community discernment. Some Quakers have little interest in the Bible.

They usually use whatever progresses them spiritually in the bible, but the largest authority that they have is the "inner light" that guides them. Liberal Quakers have been very long standing backers of the LGBT community, and have done things like making a secret railroad to help LGBT individuals escape from Uganda. Even though I'm not a liberal quaker I still have a deep respect for them.
 

Idontknow

Member
The bible? Which bible? The original bible? One of the many revised bibles? To say you believe in what a modern day bible says, you are saying you believe that it was interpreted & translated accurately from the original bible. How many Christians believe modern day bibles were interpreted accurately without ever questioning them? How many Christians actually research the authenticity of the interpretation of original bible by the modern day bibles when forming their beliefs? If you are a Christian that has not questioned this, I can't take your belief seriously.
 

Mecha

Member
There's a christianity OT. I'm guessing since it was still open last I checked that there's not a bunch of fighting.

Yeah, I would like a general place for religious and philosophy discussion that has some debate. I know the demographics of neogaf are probably 1.) Atheist/agnostic 2.) Christian 3.) Muslim 4.) Other, but it would still be interesting if done correctly.
 

Orayn

Member
The bible? Which bible? The original bible? One of the many revised bibles? To say you believe in what a modern day bible says, you are saying you believe that it was interpreted & translated accurately from the original bible. How many Christians believe modern day bibles were interpreted accurately without ever questioning them? How many Christians actually research the authenticity of the interpretation of original bible by the modern day bibles when forming their beliefs? If you are a Christian that has not questioned this, I can't take your belief seriously.

The usual excuse for that is a specific version of the bible being divinely inspired in its translation, often the KJV. It's obviously a special pleading, but they do give it some thought.
 

boiled goose

good with gravy
I will admit ignorance on the current science of genetics, but as I can recall from human sexuality courses in HS and College, there are multiple factors that can shape human sexuality, both hard and soft sciences:

Biological, Physical, Emotional, Social, or Spiritual factors.

It is not one specific factor at play, it is many.

Yes I agree it is many.
A "choice" it most certainly it is not.
What is a "spiritual factor"?
 
My favorite Christian denomination, liberal quakers, say this about their belief in the bible:



They usually use whatever progresses them spiritually in the bible, but the largest authority that they have is the "inner light" that guides them. Liberal Quakers have been very long standing backers of the LGBT community, and have done things like making a secret railroad to help LGBT individuals escape from Uganda. Even though I'm not a liberal quaker I still have a deep respect for them.

Funny you should mention liberal Quakers. The liberal Quakers in North Carolina are looking to officially divorce themselves from the Quaker association because they are displeased with the views of the conservative Quakers throughout the state, especially regarding same sex marriage. I have family who are having to make an emergency trip to Greensboro to mediate the conflict as they'll likely lose a primo Quaker meet-up because the liberal Quakers will take it as part of the divorce.

Really crazy stuff.
 
What is a "spiritual factor"?

Religion. There are rules for sexuality in all of the world religions. One of the most sexually liberating religions is Wiccan. Out of the 3 biggest world religions, Judaism is the one that is considered the most sexually liberal.

A "choice" it most certainly it is not.

Again, depends on the discipline and belief system.
 
Again, depends on the discipline and belief system.

No sorry. Facts don't change depending on personal beliefs. The scientific evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of sexuality not being a conscious choice. Having sex is. Having sexual urges is not.

I could claim that God told me eye color is a choice. That doesn't make it so.
 
No sorry. Facts don't change depending on personal beliefs. The scientific evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of sexuality not being a conscious choice. Having sex is. Having sexual urges is not.

I could claim that God told me eye color is a choice. That doesn't make it so.

You keep saying this, but I don't think you've proven with non-anecdotal evidence that this is an overwhelmingly true statement.

Show me what the hard sciences say and I'll show you what the soft sciences say.
 
You keep saying this, but I don't think you've proven with non-anecdotal evidence that this is an overwhelmingly true statement.

Show me what the hard sciences say and I'll show you what the soft sciences say.

The soft sciences don't say it is a conscious choice either. Sexuality being influenced by social environment (which isn't really seen as the case anymore) does not make it a conscious choice like deciding what breakfast cereal to eat. Maybe you should read articles instead of relying on your foggy memory of your outdated High School sex ed textbook.
 

Arkeband

Banned
You keep saying this, but I don't think you've proven with non-anecdotal evidence that this is an overwhelmingly true statement.

Show me what the hard sciences say and I'll show you what the soft sciences say.

It's really boring to read these devils advocate arguments you pick with specific people in the thread.

No one wants to hear your 'soft science' when you're just speaking in vague "well maybe maybe not belief's a two way street" platitudes. You're not actually saying anything.
 

Miles X

Member
The soft sciences don't say it is a conscious choice either. Sexuality being influenced by social environment (which isn't really seen as the case anymore) does not make it a conscious choice like deciding what breakfast cereal to eat. Maybe you should read articles instead of relying on your foggy memory of your outdated High School sex ed textbook.

Which begs the quesiton why are you even arguing it? Whether it's innate learned it is what it is, something to be unapologetic about.

Neither are "choice" btw.
 
If you actually give a shit Doktor, start by looking at the referenced articles on Wikipedia. Not wikipedia itself, but the referenced scientific papers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality#Causes

Which begs the quesiton why are you even arguing it? Whether it's innate learned it is what it is, something to be unapologetic about.

Because I've brought up that being against homosexuality is the same as being against ethnicity or race. But his main argument against that is that homosexuality is a conscious choice like deciding what breakfast cereal to eat.

Now he could instead argue that acting on homosexual impulses is the choice. But then I've brought up that cosmetic surgery has advanced to the point that someone could very well alter their physical appearance enough to pass as a different race.
 

Miles X

Member
If you actually give a shit Doktor, start by looking at the referenced articles on Wikipedia. Not wikipedia itself, but the referenced scientific papers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality#Causes



Because I've brought up that being against homosexuality is the same as being against ethnicity or race. But his main argument against that is that homosexuality is a conscious choice like deciding what breakfast cereal to eat.

Now he could instead argue that acting on homosexual impulses is the choice. But then I've brought up that cosmetic surgery has advanced to the point that someone could very well alter their physical appearance enough to pass as a different race.

Yeah I agree with you, sorry I misread your post.
 

Kinsei

Banned
The idea that anyone would choose be to gay, and be subject to all the shit that comes with it, is baffling to me.

Something something professional victims something something.

I've actually seen people argue that LGBT people are that way because they enjoy being victims.
 
The soft sciences don't say it is a conscious choice either. Sexuality being influenced by social environment (which isn't really seen as the case anymore) does not make it a conscious choice like deciding what breakfast cereal to eat. Maybe you should read articles instead of relying on your foggy memory of your outdated High School sex ed textbook.

I see you pulled out wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sexuality

These may manifest themselves in biological, physical, emotional, social, or spiritual aspects. The biological and physical aspects of sexuality largely concern the human reproductive functions, including the human sexual response cycle and the basic biological drive that exists in all species.[3] Physical and emotional aspects of sexuality include bonds between individuals that is expressed through profound feelings or physical manifestations of love, trust, and care. Social aspects deal with the effects of human society on one's sexuality, while spirituality concerns an individual's spiritual connection with others. Sexuality also impacts and is impacted upon by cultural, political, legal, philosophical, moral, ethical, and religious aspects of life.

Read here:

Opinions differ on the origins of an individual's sexual orientation and sexual behavior. Some argue that sexuality is determined by genetics; some believe it is molded by the environment, and others argue that both of these factors interact to form the individual's sexual orientation.[1] This pertains to the nature versus nurture debate. In the former, one assumes that the features of a person innately correspond to their natural inheritance, exemplified by drives and instincts; the latter refers to the assumption that the features of a person continue to change throughout their development and nurturing, exemplified by ego ideals and formative identifications.

It's really boring to read these devils advocate arguments you pick with specific people in the thread.

No one wants to hear your 'soft science' when you're just speaking in vague "well maybe maybe not belief's a two way street" platitudes. You're not actually saying anything.

Here's a statement: I don't believe sexuality to be binary and I understand it to be more complex than you can tell me, so if you have nothing of value to add to this conversation, please do not quote me.

Use the ignore function.
 
A slight correction, some aspects of sexuality are impacted by social environment. Like whether you find hairless women attractive, or thinner women, or are into tits or asses more. There's a larger body of evidence suggesting those are strongly influenced by culture, which is social learning. Though again, that doesn't make it a conscious choice.

And then there's really no evidence that suggests which gender you are attracted to falls under cultural/social learning. But again, even if there was, that doesn't make it a conscious choice. People don't choose their cultural environment while developing as a child.

If sexuality could easily be shifted so radically in adolescence I imagine that gay conversion therapy wouldn't have an abysmal success rate of near 0%.

"Opinions differ on the origins of an individual's sexual orientation and sexual behavior. Some argue that sexuality is determined by genetics; some believe it is molded by the environment, and others argue that both of these factors interact to form the individual's sexual orientation.[1] "

Cool, some argue the Earth is flat.Some argue the earth is 5000 years old. Some argue evolution is not true. I've said over and over what the MAJORITY of scientific articles from both soft and hard sciences state. I've told you multiple times to read the linked articles, not wikipedia itself. You clearly are not open minded in the slightest about this, if you let a single sentence on Wikipedia shut down the entire discussion. Do some actual reading. I'm done speaking with you.
 

BamfMeat

Member

And you conveniently choose to ignore that he said that nature vs nurture is irrelevant in this conversation - either way, the person isn't "choosing" to be gay.

Even if it's nurture, that's still beyond the persons' control.

If sexuality could easily be shifted so radically in adolescence I imagine that gay conversion therapy wouldn't have an abysmal success rate of near 0%.

Not near, it is 0%. Even gay people who go through reparative therapy say they're still gay, they just deal with their "urges" better.
 
You do know that sexual orientation and gender are separate things, right?

The poster your arguing with was discussing gender and race, not sexual orientation and race.

He didn't use the term gender. He used sexuality in his bullshit strawman.

I understand the difference between the 2.

And you conveniently choose to ignore that he said that nature vs nurture is irrelevant in this conversation - either way, the person isn't "choosing" to be gay.

Even if it's nurture, that's still beyond the persons' control.

Except it isn't and in this conversation, he is spouting opinion dressed as fact.
 
He didn't use the term gender. He used sexuality.

I understand the difference between the 2.

I really don't get why 1 sentence on Wikipedia trumps the majority of scientific evidence for you. You do know Wikipedia is not the linked scientific articles themselves right? Or that you will always have dissenters in science. You can still find a Creationist or two in biology. That does not invalidate the fact that the majority of evidence points to Evolution via natural selection being true.

Similarly, that "some argue" sentence on Wiki does not counter that the majority of study in the past few decades has overwhelmingly shown sexuality to not be a conscious choice like "what breakfast cereal will I have today."

Except it isn't and in this conversation, he is spouting opinion dressed as fact.

Nope. I'm spouting fact as fact. You are the one who refuses to look into the actual in-depth scientific articles because of a single sentence on Wikipedia. Wikipedia itself isn't what you should be looking at, but the articles linked. And not a single article or two, but the majority of them.
 

Mecha

Member
Funny you should mention liberal Quakers. The liberal Quakers in North Carolina are looking to officially divorce themselves from the Quaker association because they are displeased with the views of the conservative Quakers throughout the state, especially regarding same sex marriage. I have family who are having to make an emergency trip to Greensboro to mediate the conflict as they'll likely lose a primo Quaker meet-up because the liberal Quakers will take it as part of the divorce.

Really crazy stuff.

Any news articles about it? There are more conservative (and more popular) sects of Quakers, not all are liberal.
 

BamfMeat

Member
He didn't use the term gender. He used sexuality in his bullshit strawman.

I understand the difference between the 2.



Except it isn't and in this conversation, he is spouting opinion dressed as fact.

From your linked and quoted statements above, I followed the [1].

Here's the link to the [1]

There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation.

Yes it's entirely relevant to this conversation. Your claim is that it's debatable whether it's a choice or not. This isn't up for debate. It's not a choice. Nature vs nurture is completely irrelevant because if someone doesn't "choose" to be a certain way, they have no control over it.
 
I really don't get why 1 sentence on Wikipedia trumps the majority of scientific evidence for you. You do know Wikipedia is not the linked scientific articles themselves right? Or that you will always have dissenters in science. You can still find a Creationist or two in biology. That does not invalidate the fact that the majority of evidence points to Evolution via natural selection being true.

Similarly, that "some argue" sentence on Wiki does not counter that the majority of study in the past few decades has overwhelmingly shown sexuality to not be a conscious choice like "what breakfast cereal will I have today."

Nope. I'm spouting fact as fact. You are the one who refuses to look into the actual in-depth scientific articles because of a single sentence on Wikipedia. Wikipedia itself isn't what you should be looking at, but the articles linked. And not a single article or two, but the majority of them.

I asked you to post hard science articles confirming your assertion and you haven't. You aren't arguing in good faith.

In the majority of that Wikipedia article, it confirms exactly what I previously said about human sexuality before, which is that it is nuanced and not just one hard line factor, so cut the pompous and frankly insulting attitude you have regarding my usage of Wikipedia as a source.
 
I asked you to post hard science articles confirming your assertion and you haven't. You aren't arguing in good faith.

In the majority of that Wikipedia article, it confirms exactly what I previously said about human sexuality before, which is that it is nuanced and not just one hard line factor, so cut the pompous and frankly insulting attitude you have regarding my usage of Wikipedia as a source.

Oh my fucking god. Are you serious?

I said to LOOK at the LINKED articles in the Wikipedia page. Not the Wiki article itself. My fucking god, do you not understand what I meant by that?

Fine, since you aren't capable of doing so I'll fucking go through the Wiki page and link by hand each fucking article for you.

edit: Nevermind, you wouldn't bother reading them anyway. I've done you the equivalent of handing you the articles. I'm not going to link them on GAF when you can look at them yourself via following the blue links at the references section of the wiki. And you claim I'm not arguing in good faith?
 
edit: Nevermind, you wouldn't bother reading them anyway. I've done you the equivalent of handing you the articles. I'm not going to link them on GAF when you can look at them yourself via following the blue links at the references section of the wiki. And you claim I'm not arguing in good faith?

Considering some of the quoted sources are from psychology, biology, and sexuality textbooks currently unavailable online, I can't freely do that on a computer, but ok.
 
Any news articles about it? There are more conservative (and more popular) sects of Quakers, not all are liberal.

None that I can find. It really just happened in the past couple of days, with the meeting scheduled for today I believe. I'm getting this information from my wife whose maternal side are all conservative Quakers.
 
Considering some of the quoted sources are from psychology, biology, and sexuality textbooks currently unavailable online, I can't freely do that on a computer, but ok.

The references are sorted, many of the references are available online. Many of the journal articles are available online. Scientific peer reviewed journal articles are also significantly better than textbooks. Would you like another excuse? I'll try and help come up with one for you.
 

boiled goose

good with gravy
Alright, well I think the bible is pretty encouraging to read. What made you change your mind?

Bible is encouraging? Maybe a few select parts are nice but as a whole to me it is just garbage.

You have Genesis filled with made up myths. The old Testament has endorsements of slavery, murder, genocide, incest, rape, divine right, etc, etc, etc.
Then the new testsment makes it worse by introducing literal hell and god as a mobster where if you don't agree you get tortured forever for not only your sins but the ones of your ancestors.
Then apocalypse with dragons and other fun stuff.

The fact that people believe this is actually very depressing to me.
 
The references are sorted, many of the references are available online. Many of the journal articles are available online. Scientific peer reviewed journal articles are also significantly better than textbooks. Would you like another excuse? I'll try and help come up with one for you.

Yes, which I do not have current access to. I'm no longer a college student.
 
I think eye color is a conscious choice. I recall reading that in my high school textbook and I think that people with a sinful eye color (green) simply don't think hard enough to change it. But really eye color is as conscious a choice as what color shirt you will wear in the morning.

Yes, which I do not have current access to. I'm no longer a college student.

That's really not my problem. That's honestly the best part about facts. Your ignorance cannot and will not change them. :)

By the way you can pay to access those journals. If you aren't a college student you can use the money you'd have been paying for textbooks to paying for journal subscriptions. So what is your excuse now? To poor to pay for them? Not something you want to spend money on? The former is unfortunate, and I hope you will consider using any cash you save up towards expanding your mind. If the latter, that isn't my problem.
 
So basically, they interpret the bible in a different way than what is the most popular interpretation. Hey that's a good thing, I think religion needs to be accommodating. I would even support it if love and community became the central theme and not judgement and consequences in the after life.

Red Letter Christians.

Might not agree with them on every single point. Maybe I missed them saying "we're in full support of the SCOTUS ruling", but they were quick to call bullshit, since other actual atrocities have occurred in the past in the US. And they were very quick to denounce the Confederate Flag too, from what I saw.
 
So let's be clear here. What is your argument? Is your argument that being gay is a choice? Or that it's not a hard-coded biology "thing"?

Pretty much. The same way I don't believe Heterosexuality or Bisexuality is hard coded into people.

I agreed with the SCOTUS ruling in a previous post because it is infringing on the legal and financial freedoms Americans are entitled to with marriage and I'm glad that the issue is separated between Church and State.

That's really not my problem. That's honestly the best part about facts. Your ignorance cannot and will not change them. :)

.

It's ok. You have a lot to learn about the world. I really asked a simple thing of you and you got upset.
 

Principate

Saint Titanfall
I really don't get why 1 sentence on Wikipedia trumps the majority of scientific evidence for you. You do know Wikipedia is not the linked scientific articles themselves right? Or that you will always have dissenters in science. You can still find a Creationist or two in biology. That does not invalidate the fact that the majority of evidence points to Evolution via natural selection being true.

Similarly, that "some argue" sentence on Wiki does not counter that the majority of study in the past few decades has overwhelmingly shown sexuality to not be a conscious choice like "what breakfast cereal will I have today."



Nope. I'm spouting fact as fact. You are the one who refuses to look into the actual in-depth scientific articles because of a single sentence on Wikipedia. Wikipedia itself isn't what you should be looking at, but the articles linked. And not a single article or two, but the majority of them.

I believe he's asking you quote and provide evidence of papers themselves. As with everything it's peer reviewed compared and tested for a reason, it's always better to see evidence first hand than to take the information second had.
 
Pretty much. The same way I don't believe Heterosexuality or Bisexuality is hard coded into people.

My argument was never that it was hard coded. The evidence largely does point to prenatal hormonal environment and genetic factors. That doesn't rule out social factors/postnatal environment. But the evidence for those factors playing a large role is slim, and those factors are still not consciously controllable for the most part. A developing child cannot choose their cultural background and upbringing.

If your argument is that sexuality is the same thing as deciding what shirt color to wear in the morning, then you're 100% wrong.

I believe he's asking you quote and provide evidence of papers themselves. As with everything it's peer reviewed compared and tested for a reason, it's always better to see evidence first hand than to take the information second had.

And I'm not asking him to take it second hand. I'm asking him to read the entire papers himself, rather than me paying the subscription for him so that I can cherry pick the best quotes from a select handful of journal articles.

If you're asking me to quote the entire paper I'm pretty sure that's considered theft and I'm not going to break the law. He can pay for and read the journals himself.
 
A slight correction, some aspects of sexuality are impacted by social environment. Like whether you find hairless women attractive, or thinner women, or are into tits or asses more. There's a larger body of evidence suggesting those are strongly influenced by culture, which is social learning. Though again, that doesn't make it a conscious choice.

And then there's really no evidence that suggests which gender you are attracted to falls under cultural/social learning. But again, even if there was, that doesn't make it a conscious choice. People don't choose their cultural environment while developing as a child.

If sexuality could easily be shifted so radically in adolescence I imagine that gay conversion therapy wouldn't have an abysmal success rate of near 0%.

"Opinions differ on the origins of an individual's sexual orientation and sexual behavior. Some argue that sexuality is determined by genetics; some believe it is molded by the environment, and others argue that both of these factors interact to form the individual's sexual orientation.[1] "

Cool, some argue the Earth is flat.Some argue the earth is 5000 years old. Some argue evolution is not true. I've said over and over what the MAJORITY of scientific articles from both soft and hard sciences state. I've told you multiple times to read the linked articles, not wikipedia itself. You clearly are not open minded in the slightest about this, if you let a single sentence on Wikipedia shut down the entire discussion. Do some actual reading. I'm done speaking with you.

The only research I have seen which fills all the gaps is the case of Epigenetic and sexual preference

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/253971.php

Epigenetics is a Key Player in Sexual Preference Epi-marks act as another layer of information fused to our genes that control their expression. Essentially, genes hold the directions, while epi-marks instruct how they are put into motion and completed.

Historically, epi-marks are eliminated and created anew with each generation, but new research shows that they can occasionally pass over between generations, causing similarities within families and appearing as shared genes.

Sex-specific epi-marks are made during early fetal development and serve as security against the considerable natural variation in testosterone that happens in late fetal development. For example, sex-specific epi-marks prevent female fetuses from becoming masculine when there are unusually high testosterone levels present, and vice versa for male fetuses.

Different kinds of epi-marks safeguard different sex-specific characteristics; some protect the genitals, others protect sexual identity, and this study suggests others keep safe sexual partner preference.

When these epi-marks are passed between generations from fathers to daughters or mothers to sons, they have the potential to result in reverse effects. The outcome is feminization of characteristics in sons or masculinization of some characteristics in daughters, occasionally affecting sexual preference.

This study provides an answer to the evolutionary mystery of homosexuality, suggesting that "sexually antagonistic" epi-marks can, at times, pass from generation to generation and result in homosexuality in opposite-sex children. The mathematical modeling shows that the coding of the genes for these epi-marks can spread in the population easily because they invariably raise the fitness of the parent, but are very rarely erased and do not reduce fitness in their children.

The study's co-author Sergey Gavrilets, NIMBioS' associate director for scientific activities and a professor at the University of Tennessee-Knoxville, concluded, "Transmission of sexually antagonistic epi-marks between generations is the most plausible evolutionary mechanism of the phenomenon of human homosexuality."

So neither a choice nor a gene but something in between. Not A part of DNA when fetus appears and person seems to have no control, the environment and switches do. it seems to explain that most epimarks start anew with new offspring, however some pass through and that explains homosexuality in family. Sex specific epimarks control the flow of testosterone and other hormonal segments, when it does not flow with the natural way it usually works. females get more masculine qualities and men get more feminine qualities, how much depends on how big of a flow the epimarks allow. Again, this occurs at the late fetal development stage, this is a point where gender has already been established but sexual preference is still in play
 
It's ok. You have a lot to learn about the world. I really asked a simple thing of you and you got upset.

Can you provide any evidence for this claim? Please stop dressing opinion as fact.

I asked you a simple thing (to read the linked articles, not the wikipedia page itself) and you not only did the opposite, but said I wasn't arguing in good faith. But I guess judging me is easier than analyzing your own behavior. I'll pray for you.

The only research I have seen which fills all the gaps is the case of Epigenetic and sexual preference

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/253971.php



So neither a choice nor a gene but something in between. Not A part of DNA when fetus appears and person seems to have no control, the environment and switches do. it seems to explain that most epimarks start anew with new offspring, however some pass through and that explains homosexuality in family. Sex specific epimarks control the flow of testosterone and other hormonal segments, when it does not flow with the natural way it usually works. females get more masculine qualities and men get more feminine qualities, how much depends on how big of a flow the epimarks allow. Again, this occurs at the late fetal development stage

Epigenetics isn't really choice either. I suppose some can be, since you can get epigenetic changes from drinking coffee, which is a choice. But not all of them are really a "choice" in the sense that "hmm what color shirt will I wear? Red for today."
 
Can you provide any evidence for this claim? Please stop dressing opinion as fact.

I asked you a simple thing (to read the linked articles, not the wikipedia page itself) and you not only did the opposite, but said I wasn't arguing in good faith. But I guess judging me is easier than analyzing your own behavior. I'll pray for you.



Epigenetics isn't really choice either. I suppose some can be, since you can get epigenetic changes from drinking coffee, which is a choice. But not all of them are really a "choice" in the sense that "hmm what color shirt will I wear? Red for today."

its not a choice humans make. but a choice after the fact not controlled by you.
 

BamfMeat

Member
Pretty much. The same way I don't believe Heterosexuality or Bisexuality is hard coded into people.

http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/41472/title/Zeroing-in-on-the--Gay-Gene-/

At least in men, homosexuality may be a function of genetics, according to a study of more than 400 pairs of gay brothers. The research, published yesterday (November 18) in Psychological Medicine, confirms the role of a stretch of the X chromosome in determining sexual preference in men, a finding first suggested more than 20 years ago.
 

Ray Wonder

Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
It's not merely wrong in my view, it's just logically wrong. You beg the question by assuming as a premise part of your conclusion. "Because being gay and acting gay are separate, one can accept a gay person but reject their actions without being bigoted because they are separate."

I cannot accept that they are different because I do not acknowledge or agree with the notion that the separation upon which the difference relies even exists. Because it doesn't. Your sexuality is not simply who you are or what you are attracted to but also its expression in reality. You're attempting to divorce identity from expression of itself which makes no sense to me. You're simply restating the tired "hate the sin but love the sinner" that all LGBT people have heard all their lives. Go ahead and ask us how often we found that to be as true in practice.

I would very much advise not telling gay people what homosexuaity is and isn't, which you are doing when you try to argue that it's a divided concept that can be partly rejected and reviled.

Because let's make one other thing clear: rejecting the acts and "choices" made to reflect my orientation isn't some harmless opinion like "I didn't like Mad Max Fury Road" (although such people are monsters, clearly. :p) It makes it ok to sneer and show disgust at people being same-sex affectionate in public, be ause after al, it's just the act they're rejecting. You wanna know the psychological damage you can do to people by avoiding eye contact at best for holding hands? I know too many gay people who are too afraid to be affectionate in public because of the responses they get.

It's not harmless, and it rejects me as a person.

Fair enough. I'm not against changing my view when it's wrong.

People who say doing gay things is wrong fundamentally rejects gay people, as people, all together. Even if they don't actually know that. Which is why people need educated about it.


I was very pointedly and specifically addressing one and only one (poor) argument. To try to read into that anything more is ill advised. His comparison and the logic necessary to make it were, I find, pretty weak bullshit.

How you found that suggestion in my dismantling of that very singular argument is beyond me.

Partly because it assumes a premise I do not necessarily accept (that one can "accept" a gay person contrary to a faith that proscribes them as inherently abominable -- as I have pointed out already, I do not believe one can separate homosexuality as a state of being from its manifestation in reality.)

I was just asking you an honest question. I wasn't implying anything.

There are a lot of people out there that are in a situation where, for their entire lives, they've followed a christian belief that may say being gay is a sin. Going to the same church, with the same people, and the same pastor. They may feel obligated to stick with that church solely to stay with people they are familiar with.

Is there any alternative way, in your eyes, to accept gay people without leaving that church?
 

aeolist

Banned
So neither a choice nor a gene but something in between. Not A part of DNA when fetus appears and person seems to have no control, the environment and switches do. it seems to explain that most epimarks start anew with new offspring, however some pass through and that explains homosexuality in family. Sex specific epimarks control the flow of testosterone and other hormonal segments, when it does not flow with the natural way it usually works. females get more masculine qualities and men get more feminine qualities, how much depends on how big of a flow the epimarks allow. Again, this occurs at the late fetal development stage, this is a point where gender has already been established but sexual preference is still in play

uh, that's not something between choice and genetics, it's just genes that are sometimes triggered and sometimes not. kids don't have choice over their developmental environments.

It's ok. You have a lot to learn about the world. I really asked a simple thing of you and you got upset.

hahahaha

that's some good trollin'
 

You article says that the research is preliminary. Has the end result been confirmed?

Hamer, who recently wrote an opinion piece in The Scientist about the responsibilities of researchers who study sexual orientation, only studied 38 pairs of brothers in his 1993 study, but he told New Scientist that he sees the new paper as confirmation of his work. “Twenty years is a long time to wait for validation, but now it’s clear the original results were right,” he said. “It’s very nice to see it confirmed.”

But as was the case in 1993, not all researchers are convinced that science is homing in on the biological roots of sexual preference. Even the senior author on the Psychological Medicine paper, Northwestern University psychologist Michael Bailey, had his doubts. “I thought that [Hamer] did a fine but small study,” he told Science. “If I had to bet, I would have bet against our being able to replicate it.”

“It looks promising for there being genes in both of these regions,” Bailey told Science. “But until somebody finds a gene, we don’t know.”
 
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