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Anyone else dislike combat systems in modern AAA games?

RedSwirl

Junior Member
Because they usually aren't trying to make dark souls, dragon's dogma, or devil may cry.

I feel like most western developers maybe 12-15 years ago were trying to make DMC-style combat systems with conventional combos (ex: Prince of Persia Warrior Within) but just gave up and settled on the Arkham Asylum system as the best compromise they could come up with. Maybe the level of challenge they're going for is lower as well.

Also, the guy in the video said that for him, bad combat will completely ruin a game for him, which isn't the case for me, especially not with RPGs. I thoroughly enjoyed both prior Witcher games because of their excellent world building. People play the hell out of Skyrim despite its terrible combat.
 

Hindl

Member
Western developers are generally not good with combat/gameplay.

Japan is just leagues ahead in that department.

This. It's actually why I've found myself liking JRPGs over WRPGs. JRPGs focus on making the moment to moment gameplay and core combat really good, while WRPGs seem more focused on building this massive world where you can do all these different things. The only problem is all of those things generally aren't that interesting, and the core gameplay suffers as a result of this focus
 

Jobbs

Banned
Generally yes. I despise the Batman combat and wish it was never inflicted on the world. It's a cancer. The magnet stuff is horrible. It's so boring.
 
LOL guy proved he's an idiot less than 60 seconds in. Game = noob cuz character has the agility to move in any direction instantaneously, congratulations you called, Bayonetta, Ninja Gaiden and Devil may cry skill less.....
 
Wow, that was an absolutely obnoxious video.

He points out Jedi Knight but I'd like to know of more adventure/action AAA games from that era that also had complex battle systems. Quite frankly, that could just be an outlier. DMC has crazy combat, Metal Gear Rising, Dark Souls etc. and those are all fairly recent generationally speaking.

I agree that he should have mentioned the great Japanese combat games, now it seemed like he was talking about all modern games, but he just singled out western blockbusters.
 

a916

Member
He's playing Witcher 3 on some piss easy difficulty in that video, crank it up to death's march where you die in 2-3 hits and try spamming attacks. Good luck.

Batman's combat has always been a snoozefest but I don't have an issue with Witcher 3's. Now you've got stuff like Mordor and Mad Max that look like they stripped their combat out of Batman so overall I agree with the vid, AAA games are stale and boring.

I eye roll so hard when someone says something like that while playing Witcher 3 on easy... or complain about how useless it is to level Geralt up.
 

gunbo13

Member
NetherRealm, Santa Monica, Insomniac, Sucker Punch, and Vigil Games (RIP) do/did great jobs outside Japan. Sucker Punch especially are not mentioned for their work but they do some damn good combat.

For Japan you have Capcom, Platinum, Arc system works, Project Soul, Dimps, Nacmo, Team Ninja, Omega Force, and From.

Japan has chops. All these companies make great combat systems.
 

fedexpeon

Banned
He's playing Witcher 3 on some piss easy difficulty in that video, crank it up to death's march where you die in 2-3 hits and try spamming attacks. Good luck.

Come on brah...
TW3 on DM is easymode at level 15 due to the general(yellow) skills+never dying adrenaline treeline.
I spam attacks all day long because the monster AI is dumb as hell.
They can't turn fast enough to stop you from spamming those sweet crit dmgs.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
I feel like most western developers maybe 12-15 years ago were trying to make DMC-style combat systems with conventional combos (ex: Prince of Persia Warrior Within) but just gave up and settled on the Arkham Asylum system as the best compromise they could come up with. Maybe the level of challenge they're going for is lower as well.

Also, the guy in the video said that for him, bad combat will completely ruin a game for him, which isn't the case for me, especially not with RPGs. I thoroughly enjoyed both prior Witcher games because of their excellent world building. People play the hell out of Skyrim despite its terrible combat.
Yes but people confuse "I don't like this" or "For me this is easy on this easy difficulty" with "bad, if only it was from Japan" It's an elitist mindset.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
Soulsborne games, Dragon's Dogma and Ys: Oath in Felghana ruined action-RPGs or action-adventure games for me.

But especially Souls. Yes, "not every game can be like it". But so far, I've yet to play something half as good, and I don't know why that is.

Haven't played the Batman games, but AssCreed's shitty combat ruined the game for me, and Shadow of Mordor was so powerfully brain-dead it honestly felt a bit insulting.
 

Fury451

Banned
Batman combat is pretty ace.
I hated Witcher 3, but Batman works well.

Agreed.

Wouldn't say I "hated" Witcher 3, but I inevitably compared it to something like Souls or Dragon's Dogma.

As far as big AAA combat goes, Batman is supreme IMO. Not deep per se, but lots of options. Easy to learn, but very hard and satisfying to master. Being able to level a room of 20 thugs without taking a single hit is so good.

Mordor was weak despite attempting to copy Batman, and Assassins Creed finally made some improvements with Unity- it was a lot more challenging and precise than before- but otherwise most games struggle, but usually produce serviceable combat.
 

-MD-

Member
LOL guy proved he's an idiot less than 60 seconds in. Game = noob cuz character has the agility to move in any direction instantaneously, congratulations you called, Bayonetta, Ninja Gaiden and Devil may cry skill less.....

He's actually not wrong about that part, he's saying no matter where the camera is facing or what's going on pressing attack just makes your character instantly lock on and lunge towards someone with otherwise no input from the player.

Batman's combat looks so goofy as a result of that, you can press attack and batman will liu kang kick across the screen 100 feet into an enemy.
 

Weizor

Neo Member
This. It's actually why I've found myself liking JRPGs over WRPGs. JRPGs focus on making the moment to moment gameplay and core combat really good, while WRPGs seem more focused on building this massive world where you can do all these different things. The only problem is all of those things generally aren't that interesting, and the core gameplay suffers as a result of this focus

Huh? Most JRPGs have trivial combat where all you do is use the same abilities over and over again. None of them come even close to something like Jagged Alliance 2.
 

Producer

Member
Yeah, its the main reason i dont play 95% of them. I dont care for top class graphics, mocap, cinematic cutscenes ect so i have no reason to play them if the combat isnt engaging.
 

danmaku

Member
I don't see the point in comparing an action/adventure game like Batman to a pure action game like DMC and even and RPG (The Witcher) or a fighting game (MK)! Let's throw even Call of Duty and FIFA into the mix, yay!
 

Protomanx13

Neo Member
He's actually not wrong about that part, he's saying no matter where the camera is facing or what's going on pressing attack just makes your character instantly lock on and lunge towards someone with otherwise no input from the player.

Batman's combat looks so goofy as a result of that, you can press attack and batman will liu kang kick across the screen 100 feet into an enemy.

agreed. even though one can master the combat in Batman, one can just smash the attack button and can still win (mostly)
 

Satch

Banned
The combat in those games just isn't challenging for me. Like you go from playing Bayonetta to Batman and it just plays itself.

And I'm not quite a fan of the defense that "it makes the combat look good and flowy." The combat can look good and have a natural flow without it being so automated.
 

fedexpeon

Banned
Yes but people confuse "I don't like this" or "For me this is easy on this easy difficulty" with "bad, if only it was from Japan" It's an elitist mindset.

Well, what do you call simple design such as button mashing with no skill and positional placement?
If we have other combat system from the same genre to compare then you have to call it as it, an inferior system.
This isn't about confusing I don't like it or elitism, it is an objective view on all the combat system that comes from this genre.
 

Two Words

Member
A small part of me died when they nerfed the Trial of Archimedes in God of War: Ascension. That was a great and challenging part of the game and so many people complained that it was too hard. It just shows how much people nowadays expect games to be easy. You don't "beat" games anymore, you just see them through to the end like movies. I couldn't beat the Trial on the first day I played it, but the next day I took a totally different approach and beat it on my first try and it felt fantastic. It felt rewarding that I had to actually think something out for once.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAsjoccp93o
 

Lunar15

Member
I feel like a lot of them don't play with the concept of risk vs reward, which I think is crucial for solid, balanced combat.
 

gunbo13

Member
I can't stand most modern favorites because the combat is garbage or on auto-pilot. I don't care about cinematic gameplay. Bloodborne was a great title to come up recently that brought me back into it. All the Batman, Witcher, AC, whatever stuff is just hitting buttons. TLOU is the very minimum I can take and that combat was still very lacking.
 
He's actually not wrong about that part, he's saying no matter where the camera is facing or what's going on pressing attack just makes your character instantly lock on and lunge towards someone with otherwise no input from the player.

Batman's combat looks so goofy as a result of that, you can press attack and batman will liu kang kick across the screen 100 feet into an enemy.

Maybe in Arkham Knight, which i haven't played, but having played City if you just press attack with out guiding Batman with the Stick, he'll punch air if the enemy he attacked previously is knocked to the ground.

A wanted improvement i wanted from City to Knight was a Soft lock on reticule to show me which enemy i'm targeting.
 

SmokedMeat

Gamer™
giphy.gif


This is commonly the case, but the nature of much AAA is to encourage hand holding so as not to scare off the general public. But luckily we still have a few higher budget titles where combat is a priority.

Batman's combat fits the comics. It would look weird if he were pulling off the typical gravity defying moves often seen in Japanese action games.
 
He's actually not wrong about that part, he's saying no matter where the camera is facing or what's going on pressing attack just makes your character instantly lock on and lunge towards someone with otherwise no input from the player.

Batman's combat looks so goofy as a result of that, you can press attack and batman will liu kang kick across the screen 100 feet into an enemy.

Because the system is designed to be free flow combat. This has been known since Arkham Asylum...
 

Ferrio

Banned
agreed. even though one can master the combat in Batman, one can just smash the attack button and can still win (mostly)

Like to see you try in Arkham knight. Brutes, charging guys, guys with stun rods, ninja knife dudes, guns with stun suits... ya the punch button alone will get you fucked up.

Thing is even with all the combat options in batman, the fighting looks beautiful and flows pretty seemlessly when done correctly.
 

Orayn

Member
Well, what do you call simple design such as button mashing with no skill and positional placement?
If we have other combat system from the same genre to compare then you have to call it as it, an inferior system.
This isn't about confusing I don't like it or elitism, it is an objective view on all the combat system that comes from this genre.

You call it easy, simple, unsatisfying to you, etc. Because most of those AAA games are focused on delivering an approachable, often cinematic experience to a broad audience, this can be a pretty sensible design choice.

A combat system being more complex and technical doesn't make it or the game is part of "objectively better."
 

-tetsuo-

Unlimited Capacity
Don't even have to go that far, blood and broken bones will generally wreck people, especially against a group of monsters like drowners.

*plays witcher 3 on easy*

Combat is terrible, all you have to do is spam this whole group of nekkers

*bumps difficulty to blood and broken bones*

Combat is terrible, nekkers stun lock me and then kill me in 3 hits the dodge is useless game is broken.

Quen used never. Aard used never. Yrden used never. Roll used never. Crossbow used never.
 

Two Words

Member
Because the system is designed to be free flow combat. This has been known since Arkham Asylum...

And he's saying that is the problem. I don't think his issue is that any game does it, but that so many action games do this nowadays. It actually makes some sense in Batman considering the character, but nowadays it is like every character fights like Batman.
 

gunbo13

Member
Batman's combat fits the comics. It would look weird if he were pulling off the typical gravity defying moves often seen in Japanese action games.
That's not the point. And regardless, Batman's combat could have a ton more depth and still be more than faithful to the comics. Rocksteady just chooses to make it basically autopilot.
 
I only skimmed the video but read the thread;


Jedi Knight II and Academy had wonderful combat, but the beauty of their combat (on PC) was the simplicity. The whole idea about the JK combat system was that you aimed with your lightsaber with your mouse, and that made it felt like that the lightsaber was actual energy that vaporized anything it touched(except for other lightsabers). It made everything feel like butter.

The Force Unleashed is the exact opposite - You strike a stormtrooper with a lightsaber, and you hit him 5-6 more time before he does. He is supposed to be dismembered in one swing. That is what it would have taken to make that combat feel powerful and inviting. Instead it became a wack a mole glowstick.






A.I is the big problem. Case in point: Ninja Gaiden.
I remember the outcries and frustrations from an entire playerbase who rushed to buy Ninja Gaiden only to be decimated by the first boss. A seriously yolked buff he-man with a pair of nunchucks.
No matter how aggressively you smashed your combos you would get trashed, even on the normal difficulty. (easy difficulty would only get unlocked after dying many times. "Dog difficulty" was something Itagaki made to supplement what he thought about players who couldn't handle it).
The key of course - the big "aha" was to learn to block. The boss is unable to do anything to you if you just pressed down the block button.
This didn't work on many enemies, and the trade off-is simple. You can't block and attack at the same time. There was a fine line here, and chose between defense or offense.

A more recent example was Bayonetta with its catwheel mechanic - A system that was also very simple and easy to use, but took a lot to master in timing at higher difficulties.




Assassins Creed also require timing, but unlike Bayonetta and Ninja Gaiden, the AI is shit. It doesn't mean it can't be difficult. ACs has had some enemies that made it impossible to massacre. In Unity and Revelations you would have sniper enemies that would really be a thorn in your side, but that doesn't make for what I would call good A.I.

Good A.I is Halo. Halo, Far Cry and Crysis are games with amazing AIs that had so many different variables and unpredictable outcomes that they would do.



You have many modern games that, just do context sensitive action based combat like using QTEs, or just giving you so many options you forgive the flaws. I feel Sleeping Dogs was good at that. Was it a strong combat system? I want to say no. The shooting was supbar, but the grappling, combos, parkout, pickable melee weapons and violent enemy finisheres that interacted with the surroundings (context sensitivity) distracted the player for so long it didn't become boring.
Something something Bungies 30 seconds of fun gameplay philosophy.



Max Payne is another. Great simple bullet time mechanic. It's simplicity is the beauty. It's both an offensive and a defensive tool, and you knew that MP3 was not a better game for making use of things like cover. It didn't really add to the gameplay that much besides giving a visually stimulating cinematic splendor.


Guild Wars 2 also is a game that has a wonderful mechanic in a dodge roll. Due to latency of a MMORPG, it merries an action combat by letting you dodge out of harms way. Dodging renders you immune during the dodge. It's not perfect but it gives it that extra sense of action and awareness to keep you engaged, but it doesn't delute itself into spam territory like its Korean contemporaries like TERA, Blade&Soul and Black Desert who has flashy almost fighting game quality combo but who looses some of the strategic elements.





I want to say AI is the big culprit in most games. And I think its because its very hard for developers and publishers to convey to players and the media that the AI is so interesting and nuanced and unpredictable. You cant show that easily in screenshots and trailers. Its much easier to show flashy effects and moves.
But the satisfaction of beating an opponent is only as strong as the opponent your fighting.

Ninja Gaiden is legendary because the enemies was just not aggressive. They where damn near hyper aggressive and didnt want to give you any time to breath. Engaging enemies in NG felt like a real calling.

When you have games like Resident Evil 4 whose solution to the lack of tension was just fucking up the controls, you're dealing with a shitty combat system in my book. Resi 4 is basically what I hate the most about modern combat games because its based around making it frustrating instead of elevating the enemies to be truly gruesome.

Dark Souls is a perfect example of a game where the AI makes it all sing. Take away the AI and make it a passive Assasssins Creed AI and the game looses everything. There will never be any fun or satisfaction in beating enemies who are not the equal of the player.





TL;DR AI AI AI AI AI AI AI AI AI
 

Two Words

Member
*plays witcher 3 on easy*

Combat is terrible, all you have to do is spam this whole group of nekkers

*bumps difficulty to blood and broken bones*

Combat is terrible, nekkers stun lock me and then kill me in 3 hits the dodge is useless game is broken.

Quen used never. Aard used never. Yrden used never. Roll used never. Crossbow used never.
I'm playing Witcher 3 on the second hardest difficulty, and the game's combat is pretty simple. Quen and Yrden are the only two spells I ever use and I don't feel like I've been challenged by the game after the first few hours. It doesn't have the problem of regenerating health, but the combat is pretty auto-battle-like.
 

gunbo13

Member
No ever seems to be talking abouter shooters in these discussions for some reason.
It's pretty standard to separate TPS, FPS, and action titles.

I only tried the first ME games and thought the combat was atrocious.
Some exceptions obviously, there's some fantastic western games too.
There's a good amount of exceptions actually. It's just that the really popular titles are all basically scripted gameplay.
 
And he's saying that is the problem. I don't think his issue is that any game does it, but that so many action games do this nowadays. It actually makes some sense in Batman considering the character, but nowadays it is like every character fights like Batman.

The only ones I can think of that have that same feel are Batman and Shadow of Mordor which is easily explainable via the WB license.

AC plays differently to me because of the heavy parrying required in the later games. The Witcher 3, as someone else mentioned, is not a joke on higher difficulty levels. It is a much more methodical combat system versus the frenetic nature of Batman and Mordor.
 

Brashnir

Member
Combat and everything else in games has been growing more and more toward spectacle and making the player feel cool, and away from solid game fundamentals. This has been happening east and west for decades now, and it has sucked for a long time.
 
I really hate that people view Western combat as bad or simple just because you don't always have full control of characters - not everything has to be a character action game. There are good western combat systems (Batman) which are heavily automated but still require skill, timing and precise input and then there are bad examples.
 
Batman's combat fits the comics. It would look weird if he were pulling off the typical gravity defying moves often seen in Japanese action games.

Does it really? Does Batman basically ice skate around a room while fighting 20+ guys in the comics? It's way too over the top. Batman is basically superhuman...well more so than he typically is portrayed. I wished they would have prioritized strategy, stealth, and gadgets over what these games turned into.
 

Guevara

Member
I roll my eyes every time people say Batman combat is great.
It literally what makes Western AAA games so bad.
Spam XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX, press Triangle for auto-win.
Position? Fuck nah, the move will automatically move toward for you.
Just press any direction+X, it will "dance" to the next target so you can spam more Xs.

I don't really like Batman combat either. I know in theory you can do more interesting things than "Spam XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX", but in practice that seems to work best.
 
A.I is the big problem. Case in point: Ninja Gaiden.
I remember the outcries and frustrations from an entire playerbase who rushed to buy Ninja Gaiden only to be decimated by the first boss. A seriously yolked buff he-man with a pair of nunchucks.
No matter how aggressively you smashed your combos you would get trashed, even on the normal difficulty. (easy difficulty would only get unlocked after dying many times. "Dog difficulty" was something Itagaki made to supplement what he thought about players who couldn't handle it).
The key of course - the big "aha" was to learn to block. The boss is unable to do anything to you if you just pressed down the block button.
This didn't work on many enemies, and the trade off-is simple. You can't block and attack at the same time. There was a fine line here, and chose between defense or offense.

I

maybe it was because i played Sigma, and not the Xbox orginal, but if you held block for more than a second he would grab you and head butt you and throw you to ground.

The Trick was to tap block and counter attack, or attack with a faster weapon because he'd block if not in an attack animation.
 
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