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[Go_Ly_Dow]

Was linked this video and it shares my sentiments quite strongly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVGk4Hy_v0U

Health regen, automatic animations/positioning. Just a general lack of intensity in play with weak dodging mechanics and shallow combo's in the likes of the Witcher 3 and Shadow of Mordor (haven't played Batman or Ass Creed).

Not every game can be Dark Souls or Bloodborne, but it feels like many developers are going for this automated approach as it flows and looks better when marketing these games.



Thoughts?

 

[Canis lupus]

Western developers are generally not good with combat/gameplay.

Japan is just leagues ahead in that department.

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

Western developers are generally not good with combat/gameplay.

Japan is just leagues ahead in that department.

I'm really looking forward to Persona 5 so I can play a good old turn based RPG again.

 

[Kosh]

"it's combat for... I'm not going to say retards", but you just did. It may seem simplistic, but it's mostly the way it is because of the number of enemies you have to fight at once.

 

[NEOPARADIGM]

Batman combat is pretty ace.

 

[Beelzebufo]

I hated Witcher 3, but Batman works well.

 

[threelights]

Health Regen alone is not something I'd call bad. But yes, western developers are really bad with combat (and gameplay in general), and they seem to be getting worse and worse, often opting to just make everything automatic so it can be "cinematic" (*barfs*)
And yes, I'd say Batman has combat just as bad, if not worse than other AAA games =X

 

[Kwansu Dudes]

Western developers are generally not good with combat/gameplay.

Japan is just leagues ahead in that department.

I see it this way as well. Western games usually tend to focus on presentation while Japanese focus on gameplay. Granted this isn't true for every game, just the ones I've played/fans of.

 

[Ralemont]

Mass Effect 3's combat was incredible, especially in MP.

 

[SerTapTap]

Agreed, all the canned animations (anything that isn't a gun firing) in the Doom 4 trailer bothered the hell out of me. Doom felt great because you were so mobile and with few limitations (melee, BFG's wind-up) you could fire at any time and no animations at all ever interrupted your flow.

I think part of the problem is melee is really hard to make feel right and the "brutal melee" fancy kill things basically require canned animations, so any time you're not using a gun your combat winds up pretty QTE-ish. I wish more melee combat systems felt more like a fighting game--animation cancels, input queuing, very few "sticky" animations. In fact I'm not even a huge fan of Bayonetta because of how it will just eat your inputs if you press buttons too fast. I know what combo I want to do lemme do it.

 

[GuardianE]

This is commonly the case, but the nature of much AAA is to encourage hand holding so as not to scare off the general public. But luckily we still have a few higher budget titles where combat is a priority.

 

[Magic Mushroom]

Bloodborne and DMC4SE are AAA games and have awesome combat.

Thread should be, western devs often suck at combat.

 

[BadWolf]

Play Dragon's Dogma, Resident Evil 6 and Devil May Cry 4 SE.

Capcom's got your back with amazing combat.

 

[tearsintherain]

I just finished Batman and enjoyed Bloodborne. I like diversity, I would detest it if every single game played like Bloodborne (or Batman).

Sometimes I just want easy peasy combat to advance a story, I put the Assassins Creed games in that slot except for the most recent Unity which seemed to want to try and be more "hardcore" combat (and I hated it).

If you make the combat too difficult you are going to gain some gamers but lose others, for me Batman was slightly too difficult combat wise (yes I suck) with just being overwhelmed with too many combo moves in certain fights, I actually didn't have that much trouble with Bloodborne except on certain chalice boss fights. But I enjoyed that necessity of having to react quickly and correctly.

TLOU most people say has very mediocre combat but I really enjoyed it and found it just right, I was more interested in the story than convoluted combat.

Destiny is another example where the PVE combat is very easy for the most part but I really, really enjoy it. It feels "right", don't know how to explain it other than it works well. Too bad the story is ass.

 

[OceanBlue]

Is Mortal Kombat X an AAA game?

 

[Steel]

In most modern AAA games, yeah. I don't think it's all inherently bad, though. It's more that they've gotten kinda stale and homogeneous.

 

[Pyramid head]

Combat in all of those games is pretty garbage.
Mordor and Arkham are pretty much identical although from what little I've been able to play of Arkham Knight inbetween the PC version crashing every 5 minutes, they've somehow made the combat even looser and more 'automated' feeling than ever, which is almost impressive.

 

[Magic Mushroom]

TLOU most people say has very mediocre combat but I really enjoyed it and found it just right, I was more interested in the story than convoluted combat.

It's better than most. It's weighty and dynamic.

But if you want really deep combat systems, you need to look at old Team Ninja, From, Capcom and Platinum.

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

"it's combat for... I'm not going to say retards", but you just did. It may seem simplistic, but it's mostly the way it is because of the number of enemies you have to fight at once.

He gave a very good example at the end with Jedi Knights II with how fighting multiple enemies at once doesn't need to have automatic player turns, lock on and QTE like gameplay.

 

[Zakalwe]

Video won't load for me properly, but if he talks about Batman and TW3 then he's way off imo. :3

TW3 is a bit simplistic, but it's far from the mess many make it out to be. If you make use of every sign and their secondary functions, and your items, you can make combat quite interesting. Batman's is something that rewards you for your creativity, it might have a few issues (whiffing hits, camera awkward at times) but it's varied and fun.

TLoU is another example of a great AAA combat system, people like to rag on it but no other system has come as close to making me feel like I'm scrapping for my life. It's brutal, makes Joel seem tough but not over powered (it's his determination and willingness to be as brutal as necessary to survive that lets him win, not unbelievable ability) and fits the game perfectly.

There are more examples too, writing off every AAA game is silly.

 

[ktynn]

It's better than most. It's weighty and dynamic.

But if you wabt really deep combat systems, you need to look at old Team Ninja, From, Capcom and Platinum.

ye buddy you know whats up

 

[Daingurse]

Not really, find most things serviceable at the very least. The last AAA game that had combat that didn't really appeal to me much, was Dragon Age: Inquisition. Just felt dull on my 2-Hand Templar.

 

[Baroquemantic]

Nope! I love the combat in pretty much everything I've played the last couple years.

 

[Crayon]

Challenging gameplay is a niche thing now. This is why I don't pay more than 10 bucks or aaa games even if they look fun. More often than not, I play them for an hour and realize that it's "not for me". Some have great gameplay, but most are just a digital puppet show.

 

[Magic Mushroom]

I must say that the combat in both Hoirizon and especially For Honor looks quite promising though.

 

[Turin Turambar]

Yep.

AAA games are carefully designed and focus tested to be played by everyone. Usually combat difficulty and other related systems are nerfed so less skilled players can enjoy it without frustration.

An example of related system, old games could have an exploration aspect where you get resources (medkits, ammo, armor, etc). But the current designers can't count for all the players to be the explorative types, there are some that just will walk forward and that's it. That's why there are still exploration in games, but it's usually relegated to doing side tasks and challenges and getting collectibles, in other words very optional stuff, so a players that doesn't explore isn't behind the planned power curve in the game. It's much better when the exploration is fully integrated in the rest of the game experience, but it isn't done anymore.

A sample: I'm a only pc gamer with no experience in third person action games or brawlers and even I found the Batman games or SoM or AC games combat super easy.


You can do several difficulties but even then, they have to balance them thinking that the "middle one" is the one that most people picks, even when they shouldn't.

 

[Crossing Eden]

"It's combat made for...well i'm not gonna say retards, but for really skill less people"

Ugh. Will never understand the "simple=bad" mindset. Dude complains about batman being able to turn around and hit an enemy that came from the back, he's friggin batman, that's what I expect him to do. Not everything has to be a super hardcore inclusive skill test that only 1% of the fanbase knows how to use. Then he goes on to say that Witcher is about combos, uhhh I must've missed that memo because no it's not. It's about positioning, which is why so many people have problems with it is because they go into with the mindset that it's like batman. Also in a lot of the batman gameplay he showed he seemingly doesn't understand how to dodge tackles, and also not using any of the gadgets. "Hurr what's the point." News flash the game rewards you for doing more than just button mashing, and you're sure as hell aren't gonna get very far button mashing against a ton of varied enemy types when you add guns, shields, ninjas and brutes into the mix.

 

[revolverjgw]

Thank god for Ratchet and his 9 million weapons and the non-hitscan projectiles that he has to dodge

Why aren't there more games that play like those? Turn up the difficulty and speed a bit and call it Contra Vengeance: Origins Unleashed and I'm in

 

[akachan ningen]

In fact I'm not even a huge fan of Bayonetta because of how it will just eat your inputs if you press buttons too fast. I know what combo I want to do lemme do it.

Pressing the buttons with good timing is part of the gameplay. It's not like you're dialing a phone number.

 

[tesqui]

I think batman combat is fine, I just suck at it. My brain stops working when I have to remember button combos to execute specific maneuvers. When you throw in 4 different enemy types that are each tied to there own button combo, it gets a bit overwhelming for me.

Thats why i like souls combat. It's easier to understand, just harder to execute. That is for me at least.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

Don't like batman combat. Hate that it shows up in every game.

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

I must say that the combat in both Hoirizon and especially For Honor looks quite promising though.

The jury is still out on 'For Honor'.

Especially bring Ubisoft game premier trailer.

 

[Cormano]

I was never a fan, includes shooters, beat em ups, whatever. I always liked the idea of health packs, made me more careful.

 

[Zakalwe]

Yep.

AAA games are carefully designed and focus tested to be played by everyone. Usually combat difficulty and other related systems are nerfed so less skilled players can enjoy it without frustration.

An example of related system, old games could have an exploration aspect where you get resources (medkits, ammo, armor, etc). But the current designers can't count for all the players to be the explorative types, there are some that just will walk forward and that's it. That's why there are still exploration in games, but it's usually relegated to doing side tasks and challenges and getting collectibles, in other words very optional stuff, so a players that doesn't explore isn't behind the planned power curve in the game. It's much better when the exploration is fully integrated in the rest of the game experience, but it isn't done anymore.

A sample: I'm a only pc gamer with no experience in third person action games or brawlers and even I found the Batman games or SoM or AC games combat super easy.


You can do several difficulties but even then, they have to balance them thinking that the "middle one" is the one that most people picks, even when they shouldn't.

Systems like Barman's reward the player for what they put in. Getting higher scores or combos or bearing the groups in the fastest time. Easy to play but tough to beat the higher challenge scores.

It's perfectly done for everyone.

Not enjoying the combat is something else and perfectly fair, but there are plenty of examples of AAA games with high quality combat.

 

[Kosh]

He gave a very good example at the end with Jedi Knights II with how fighting multiple enemies at once doesn't need to have automatic player turns, lock on and QTE like gameplay.

Oh, he did. I stopped after the retard comment.

 

[lord_of_flood]

Pretty much, yes. It's why I don't play most western-developed AAA games. IMO western devs get their priorities wrong when it comes to game development. Gameplay systems should be more important than presentation, not the other way around.

 

[Turin Turambar]

Systems like Barman's reward the player for what they put in. Getting higher scores or combos or bearing the groups in the fastest time. Easy to play but tough to beat the higher challenge scores.

It's perfectly done for everyone.

Not enjoying the combat is something else and perfectly fair, but there are plenty of examples of AAA games with high quality combat.

What if I don't care for high scores. I really don't. In fact I avoid buying games that are basically "high score attacks".

I care for the difficulty of the single player experience, the "campaign". And it's pretty lacking.

So no, not "for everyone". Their way of doing difficulty, in other words pretty easy but where veteran gamers can get higher score with higher combos, it's just a crutch.

 

[RedSwirl]

Western developers are generally not good with combat/gameplay.

Japan is just leagues ahead in that department.

First post pretty much nails it as far as melee combat systems go. Most western developers just don't understand the basics that go into the combat systems for games like Dark Souls, Dragon's Dogma, Devil May Cry, or really any fighting game.

 

[family_guy]

I dislike what the Arkham series started.

 

[Artanisix]

Wow, that was an absolutely obnoxious video.

He points out Jedi Knight but I'd like to know of more adventure/action AAA games from that era that also had complex battle systems. Quite frankly, that could just be an outlier. DMC has crazy combat, Metal Gear Rising, Dark Souls etc. and those are all fairly recent generationally speaking.

 

[Zakalwe]

I think batman combat is fine, I just suck at it. My brain stops working when I have to remember button combos to execute specific maneuvers. When you throw in 4 different enemy types that are each tied to there own button combo, it gets a bit overwhelming for me.

Thats why i like souls combat. It's easier to understand, just harder to execute. That is for me at least.

I found the trick to BAK combat by selecting a specific most wanted outpost that had two of every enemy type (I forget the name).

Then I replayed it over and over, each time I practised by targeting one enemy type only and the specific moves required to take them down.

Try something along those lines, you'll soon get it down to muscle memory. You just need to focus, if you don't actively focus and learn it can be too chaotic as their are so many enemy types and so many combat options.

 

[Crossing Eden]

First post pretty much nails it as far as melee combat systems go. Most western developers just don't understand the basics that go into the combat systems for games like Dark Souls, Dragon's Dogma, Devil May Cry, or really any fighting game.

Because they usually aren't trying to make dark souls, dragon's dogma, or devil may cry.

 

[Seanspeed]

I see it this way as well. Western games usually tend to focus on presentation while Japanese focus on gameplay. Granted this isn't true for every game, just the ones I've played/fans of.

I love the gameplay in tons of western games, but there's more to gameplay than combat. I would agree that Japan does combat the best, though.

 

[Turin Turambar]

I must say that the combat in both Hoirizon and especially For Honor looks quite promising though.

For Honor is a multiplayer game, so the difficulty of the game and the skill of the enemy is going to be dependent of other (similarly skilled) humans. It's a bit different.

 

[Seyavesh]

yeah it's pretty bothersome but it's meant to cater to wider audience and not me so it's not like i can particularly blame them i guess

like i basically find it completely indefensible in terms of pure mechanics and challenge but most folks argue the demographics aspect which is pretty fair
it's just a bit of a shame there isn't an ideal where you get the best of high-octane action and the other jams oh wait it's devil may cry 3 WOOP WOOP

 

[-MD-]

He's playing Witcher 3 on some piss easy difficulty in that video, crank it up to death's march where you die in 2-3 hits and try spamming attacks. Good luck.

Batman's combat has always been a snoozefest but I don't have an issue with Witcher 3's. Now you've got stuff like Mordor and Mad Max that look like they stripped their combat out of Batman so overall I agree with the vid, AAA games are stale and boring.

 

[Zakalwe]

What if I don't care for high scores. I really don't. In fact I avoid buying games that are basically "high score attacks".

I care for the difficulty of the single player experience, the "campaign". And it's pretty lacking.

You create your own difficulty with the campaign by playing them like every encounter is a challenge mode.

Simply taking out the group is boring. You're supposed to be Batman, it's like a hidden difficultly mode: set it to hard but also don't ever take a hit and take down the enemies as efficiently as possible.

It takes skill to pull off consistently, the challenge of it makes it much more fun.

 

[Regiruler]

The combat in Darksiders 2 was good. Not amazing, but still pretty enjoyable with some mechanical depth once you get stuff like the death grip.

 

[fedexpeon]

I roll my eyes every time people say Batman combat is great.
It literally what makes Western AAA games so bad.
Spam XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX, press Triangle for auto-win.
Position? Fuck nah, the move will automatically move toward for you.
Just press any direction+X, it will "dance" to the next target so you can spam more Xs.

 

[Crossing Eden]

He's playing Witcher 3 on some piss easy difficulty in that video, crank it up to death's march where you die in 2-3 hits and try spamming attacks. Good luck.

Don't even have to go that far, blood and broken bones will generally wreck people, especially against a group of monsters like drowners.