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[Übermatik]

So, if you can't play as a girl in this game, does that mean there's no Link in it?

Nice link.

 

[-Minsc-]

I'm curious as to why this has become such a big deal for fans of the franchise lately. Why does it matter if Link is a boy or a girl?

If they want to make Link a girl, cool. I wouldn't have a problem with it. But what's with the constant prodding about it? Let them make the games they want to make.

Simple, Nintendo refuses to conform to the wishes of the popular view here on NeoGAF. It has nothing to do with gender equality. Gender equality is just the weapon used in this specific case. You could easily swap out the topic of gender equality with technical power and this thread would read in a similar fashion.

Conform Nintendo, conform. You are not allowed to be an individual Nintendo, conform.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Simple, Nintendo refuses to conform to the wishes of the popular view here on NeoGAF. It has nothing to do with gender equality. Gender equality is just the weapon used in this specific case. You could easily swap out the topic of gender equality with technical power and this thread would read in a similar fashion.

Conform Nintendo, conform. You are not allowed to be an individual Nintendo, conform.

Forgive my ignorance here, but I missed the part where this interview was conducted by NeoGAF. This sentiment would be more on-point if it was all motivated by us here at Social Justice HQ. But it was an interview conducted by IGN. I think it's important to note that this sentiment isn't just guided by a bunch of whiny, know-nothing internet denizens that are always going to complain about the latest flavor of the month but is actually a part of a larger conversation happening industry-wide at the moment.

 

[GabeTheGrouch76]

Concerning the first answer, I want to give the guy the benefit of the doubt and assume that when questioned, he didn't exactly know what type of answer to give. As in, he didn't want to give an honest/blunt answer (presumably that they generally prefer the Link-esque heroes to all be male or admit they never really thought about the idea) or refused to answer that question for the implications either choice would had brought, and wanted to take a third option he hoped wouldn't offend anybody.

The second answer though seems more half a case where he never really put much thought into the response and the other half of trying to spin his response in a positive light, both without really considering the implications of his first answer brought (especially when taking cultural differences into account).

Regardless, in both cases the answer(s) he ultimately gave sorta implies what people would accuse them of being with that decision, but either doesn't explicitly state it and/or brings in something else to use as an justification/excuse.

At least that's my take on the entire thing.

 

[MattKeil]

Simple, Nintendo refuses to conform to the wishes of the popular view here on NeoGAF. It has nothing to do with gender equality. Gender equality is just the weapon used in this specific case. You could easily swap out the topic of gender equality with technical power and this thread would read in a similar fashion.

Conform Nintendo, conform. You are not allowed to be an individual Nintendo, conform.

Yes, nothing says "conform" like...adding options and choice. You may want to come up with a new buzzword to obfuscate your preference for excluding people who aren't like you.

I suggest not taking the "Link is an established character" route, since Link A) Has almost no character or personality to speak of beyond an outfit, and B) Doesn't even have to be named Link if the player decides otherwise. Do people who name him something other than "Link" deserve this same rage over the betrayal of an "established character"?

Such handwringing over such a minor change that would make a lot of players happy and would never need to be looked at or utilized by anyone who doesn't want the option. Providing a gender option for the player character in a Zelda game would change absolutely nothing. You arguably wouldn't even need to change the sprite in most of the 2D games.

All the "OMG LINK BE MALE" people: Think about what you're raging at here. You'd literally have to pick "Male" as the character's gender when you start a new game. That's it. You probably wouldn't even have to move the cursor, because "Male" is almost always the default selection on those screens in games. And then you'd never have to think about it again. Do you see how you kind of come off not as defending this character you supposedly love, but as tremendously interested in making sure you have the experience you want and other people don't have the experience they want? Do you see how this kind of makes you look like a jerk? It's not a hill worth dying on.

 

[balgajo]

Yes, nothing says "conform" like...adding options and choice. You may want to come up with a new buzzword to obfuscate your preference for excluding people who aren't like you.

I suggest not taking the "Link is an established character" route, since Link A) Has almost no character or personality to speak of beyond an outfit, and B) Doesn't even have to be named Link if the player decides otherwise. Do people who name him something other than "Link" deserve this same rage over the betrayal of an "established character"?

Such handwringing over such a minor change that would make a lot of players happy and would never need to be looked at or utilized by anyone who doesn't want the option. Providing a gender option for the player character in a Zelda game would change absolutely nothing. You arguably wouldn't even need to change the sprite in most of the 2D games.

All the "OMG LINK BE MALE" people: Think about what you're raging at here. You'd literally have to pick "Male" as the character's gender when you start a new game. That's it. You probably wouldn't even have to move the cursor, because "Male" is almost always the default selection on those screens in games. And then you'd never have to think about it again. Do you see how you kind of come off not as defending this character you supposedly love, but as tremendously interested in making sure you have the experience you want and other people don't have the experience they want? Do you see how this kind of makes you look like a jerk? It's not a hill worth dying on.

A lot of fans welcome the way they changed Link over the years giving him personality. We do not want to play with something that feel as a generic avatar, where NPCs don't give a shit to your appearance, gender, race, etc. A lot of people(myself included) likes Link iconic image, and no, for some of us the appearance is even more important than the outfit. If you don't have the ability to play with a character that doesn't look like you there's a lot of games already with the generic character experience.

The biggest problem in the interview is that you don't play as Link in multiplayer so they could make something to represent you.

Also I never saw the rage from the mainstream community and Zelda fan sites when talking about Zelda to be chosen as the protagonist.

 

[QueenOfThorns]

The biggest thing I've taken away from this thread is that Link has somehow become one of the greatest well defined characters in fiction with a personality and motivations that millions could describe.

 

[balgajo]

The biggest thing I've taken away from this thread is that Link has somehow become one of the greatest well defined characters in fiction with a personality and motivations that millions could describe.

What does it have to do with people liking him? Personality and motivations aren't necessary for people to create bound with a character. You see that Mario is one of the most beloved characters and he's more plain than Link, doesn't you?

 

[Nanashrew]

Thing about Link's personality and little arcs is that they're shallow at best and don't really do much to define Link. It's shallow for the reason to keep the player invested but not defined enough so to keep the player's imagination going. This is also another reason Link stays mute in every game.

Yeah, Link has been super expressive these days but it doesn't add a whole lot to him that makes him a truly defined character.

Groose is a more defined character than Link ever will be.

 

[Mr. Nice_Guy]

I'll never understand the ire towards this. Shocking, the male character in the game isn't female. I wish they would just say "you aren't playing as a female in this game because that isn't what we planned", instead of trying to use in game excuses.

Would be cool to be able too but you can't, and the same could be said of so many other games. Hopefully someday.

 

[pastrami]

A lot of fans welcome the way they changed Link over the years giving him personality. We do not want to play with something that feel as a generic avatar, where NPCs don't give a shit to your appearance, gender, race, etc. A lot of people(myself included) likes Link iconic image, and no, for some of us the appearance is even more important than the outfit. If you don't have the ability to play with a character that doesn't look like you there's a lot of games already with the generic character experience.

The biggest problem in the interview is that you don't play as Link in multiplayer so they could make something to represent you.

Also I never saw the rage from the mainstream community and Zelda fan sites when talking about Zelda to be chosen as the protagonist.

But isn't each Link a different person? Link in Twilight Princess is not Link from Wind Waker, and neither of them are Link from Skyward Sword.

So...what's the problem with having a female Link again? A different Link than the ones already featured in the other games.

 

[Nanashrew]

What does it have to do with people liking him? Personality and motivations aren't necessary for people to create bound with a character. You see that Mario is one of the most beloved characters and he's more plain than Link, doesn't you?

Mario has alts at least like Green Mario, Peach, Daisy (I can dream!), Rosalina and Toad. Though, I wish those other characters were used more often with Mario.

 

[balgajo]

But isn't each Link a different person? Link in Twilight Princess is not Link from Wind Waker, and neither of them are Link from Skyward Sword.

So...what's the problem with having a female Link again? A different Link than the ones already featured in the other games.

I'm referring to Link the character from Nintendo, not the characters featured in the lore per si. The idea of a Link character. Shikata was not talking about a specific Link when he said that Link was not that masculine, he was referring to Link the Nintendo character that is male.

Mario has alts at least like Green Mario, Peach, Daisy (I can dream!), Rosalina and Toad. Though, I wish those other characters were used more often with Mario.

And I agree with that. I just want that we play with a female Zelda character, not female Link.

 

[BGBW]

But isn't each Link a different person? Link in Twilight Princess is not Link from Wind Waker, and neither of them are Link from Skyward Sword.

So...what's the problem with having a female Link again? A different Link than the ones already featured in the other games.

The general populace doesn't care about that. Hell I still see people on GAF (y'know, where the informed go) who still say Zelda games are all just one story being retold over and over. For them there is one Link who looks a bit different based on the game but overall he's a pointy eared bloke in a green tunic. That's Link the brand. So storywise there's not really a problem, but marketing wise it's a whole different ball game.

 

[pastrami]

The general populace doesn't care about that. Hell I still see people on GAF (y'know, where the informed go) who still say Zelda games are all just one story being retold over and over. For them there is one Link who looks a bit different based on the game but overall he's a pointy eared bloke in a green tunic. That's Link the brand. So storywise there's not really a problem, but marketing wise it's a whole different ball game.

Why? Commander Shepard is pretty much completely customizable, yet has a very recognizable main character. What prevents Nintendo from doing the same thing? I'm not arguing that Nintendo should make a female Link. I'm just saying that no one in this thread has given me a compelling reason why they shouldn't.

People are arguing that Link is now an established character because his personality was fleshed out in the latest Zelda (I have only played the games up to Wind Waker, so I can't speak to how fleshed out he really is). But why does it matter that his character was fleshed out? The canon of the Zelda storyline is that nearly every Link featured in a Zelda game is a different character. Sometimes different Links aren't even from the same universe/timeline. So you can't argue that because Link is fleshed out as a character, he can not be a she, because by the same argument (precious canon/lore), it literally does not matter.

 

[BGBW]

Why? Commander Shepard is pretty much completely customizable, yet has a very recognizable main character. What prevents Nintendo from doing the same thing? I'm not arguing that Nintendo should make a female Link. I'm just saying that no one in this thread has given me a compelling reason why they shouldn't.

People are arguing that Link is now an established character because his personality was fleshed out in the latest Zelda (I have only played the games up to Wind Waker, so I can't speak to how fleshed out he really is). But why does it matter that his character was fleshed out? The canon of the Zelda storyline is that nearly every Link featured in a Zelda game is a different character. Sometimes different Links aren't even from the same universe/timeline. So you can't argue that because Link is fleshed out as a character, he can not be a she, because by the same argument (precious canon/lore), it literally does not matter.

Commander Shephard was customisable from the beginning. Link has retained his basically static image for 29 years now. Bit of a big difference there. And on the flip side, what is the compelling reason for the change?

I'm moving away from what they say in the games, so lore and personality has no bearing, and purely looking at image, which, with Nintendo's increasing move into licensing out, is rather important. With the image of Link detached from any game people need to recognise who it is. Reality is, his gender is one of the static characteristic that people know so it's more likely to stick.

 

[pastrami]

Commander Shephard was customisable from the beginning. Link has retained his basically static image for 29 years now. Bit of a big difference there. And on the flip side, what is the compelling reason for the change?

I'm moving away from what they say in the games, so lore and personality has no bearing, and purely looking at image, which, with Nintendo's increasing move into licensing out, is rather important. With the image of Link detached from any game people need to recognise who it is. Reality is, his gender is one of the static characteristic that people know so it's more likely to stick.

Uh, better representation of women/minorities in video games? To allow people to play as characters they can more easily identify with? Have you been paying attention at all?

And so what if Commander Shepard was customizable from the beginning? If Nintendo kept all the marketing, all the iconic Link designs, and simply added the ability to swap the gender or race of your character in the game, what changes? Will fans of the traditional Link suddenly not want Default Link Amiibos? Will the ability to change the gender or race of Link diminish your own personal like of the character?

EDIT: And again, let me emphasize that I'm not arguing that Nintendo SHOULD make these changes. I'm arguing that the people fighting against change don't really have a leg to stand on.

 

[DR2K]

I feel like Nintendo takes steps forward, but someone higher up is making them take steps back because they don't want to get lost.

 

[jimi_dini]

Uh, better representation of women/minorities in video games?

Why not ask for an entirely new character instead?
Maybe Link's sister?

Or well maybe just maybe use one of the various well designed existing female characters of Legend Of Zelda. a new Legend of Zelda featuring Impa?
Funny that noone seems to have a problem with other characters having a fixed gender. Male Impa, why not?

Spoiler

because Impa is a female

Link is simply not an RPG template a la the default character in Dark Souls. Link is not some default customization option.

I mean let's imagine Nintendo added a gender switch 2 years ago. Wouldn't people start complaining, that it's just a simple basically pointless gender switch and not a proper female Link? Because that would actually be the case here. It would be Mr. female Link. It would be a typical AAA checklist feature. "Abilitity to switch genders, check". But it would be just that. A check on a checklist.

Having son + daughter of Link fight in Hyrule? Fine by me.
Change the existing male Link just because? That's weird to me. It's like asking to add a gender selection to a Samus Aran game. Or gender select Mario. Or gender select Simon Belmont.

Is a gender switch even enough in any case?
Shouldn't that be 2 switches? One for "sex" and one for "gender"? I'm actually serious here. Is that even a feature in any game? I have never seen anything like that. Because that would actually be interesting (and also somewhat trivial to implement) and would also support a real tiny minority of people, which I think would be a great thing to do.

And what about skin color. Hair color. Eye color. Grunts-type. Blonde hair is not as common as brown hair, so wouldn't people with brown hair prefer a brown haired Link? What about people having red hair? That's rare and there are not many characters with that hair color in games. And then you basically got your typical character creator a la Dark Souls or Saints Row. Which is great for those type of games, but Legend of Zelda is not like those games. It could be of course, but if you want effectively that, then why not actually ask for a full character creation a la Saints Row, because at least that would be walking the full mile.

 

[QueenOfThorns]

For the record having a SEX switch and a GENDER switch be separate would be extremely terrible for most trans people, if that's what you're trying to argue.

Anyway, how is Zelda not like those kinds of games? It's not an RPG, but again. Link can be just as expressive no matter what they look like. Link isn't a set character like even Ganon is. Link is pretty much whatever the game needs Link to be. Link doesn't even talk. Characters will MENTION Link saying stuff, but that's the same things Pokemon games do, which allow you to customize your character in XY.

 

[pastrami]

Why not ask for an entirely new character instead?
Maybe Link's sister?

Or well maybe just maybe use one of the various well designed existing female characters of Legend Of Zelda. a new Legend of Zelda featuring Impa?
Funny that noone seems to have a problem with other characters having a fixed gender. Male Impa, why not?

Spoiler

because Impa is a female

Valid points, but doesn't really add anything to the argument that Link shouldn't be a female.

Link is simply not an RPG template a la the default character in Dark Souls. Link is not some default customization option.

That doesn't really explain why shouldn't Link be customizable, or a female.

I mean let's imagine Nintendo added a gender switch 2 years ago. Wouldn't people start complaining, that it's just a simple basically pointless gender switch and not a proper female Link? Because that would actually be the case here. It would be Mr. female Link. It would be a typical AAA checklist feature. "Abilitity to switch genders, check". But it would be just that. A check on a checklist.

Le sigh...again, I'm not arguing that Nintendo needs to do this, or should do this. I'm with Steve Youngblood when he says this:

I think the goal of asking questions like this is just to get creators to think on a go-forward basis about this stuff.

If they do some soul-searching and come out the other side thinking "no, we wanted the character to be male," then that's fine. But in this process they might also be able to articulate their vision better than just offering a canned response. Or maybe -- and I think it's worth noticing that this has been happening a lot as of late and as such it continues to surprise me that people think that these questions are unnecessary and accomplishing nothing -- they come out the other side thinking "you know what, this is an easy change to make that will yield some good will for our next game. Yeah, we can add more diverse options for our player characters."

I think asking why Link can't be female is a valid question to ask Nintendo. And I don't think Nintendo gave a satisfactory answer to that question. But people are running to defend against the change, and I'm not sure anyone has given a compelling reason why Link shouldn't be female.

Having son + daughter of Link fight in Hyrule? Fine by me.
Change the existing male Link just because? That's weird to me. It's like asking to add a gender selection to a Samus Aran game. Or gender select Mario. Or gender select Simon Belmont.

Every Link is literally a different person. It's not like Samus or Simon Belmont.

Is a gender switch even enough in any case?
Shouldn't that be 2 switches? One for "sex" and one for "gender"? I'm actually serious here. Is that even a feature in any game? I have never seen anything like that. Because that would actually be interesting (and also somewhat trivial to implement) and would also support a real tiny minority of people, which I think would be a great thing to do.

And what about skin color. Hair color. Eye color. Grunts-type. Blonde hair is not as common as brown hair, so wouldn't people with brown hair prefer a brown haired Link? What about people having red hair? That's rare and there are not many characters with that hair color in games. And then you basically got your typical character creator a la Dark Souls or Saints Row. Which is great for those type of games, but Legend of Zelda is not like those games. It could be of course, but if you want effectively that, then why not actually ask for a full character creation a la Saints Row, because at least that would be walking the full mile.

Oh ok, so unless we can accommodate every single minority, we shouldn't try to cater to any.

 

[bengraven]

So, because the game is set with that as the story background,

This the worst justification for something I have seen in years.

 

[iidesuyo]

Maybe they should just introduce Mii Links? Everyone like he/she wishes.

 

[nikos]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think this is an issue in Japan as these things aren't taken to heart there the way they have been here lately.

 

[balgajo]

Uh, better representation of women/minorities in video games? To allow people to play as characters they can more easily identify with? Have you been paying attention at all?

And so what if Commander Shepard was customizable from the beginning? If Nintendo kept all the marketing, all the iconic Link designs, and simply added the ability to swap the gender or race of your character in the game, what changes? Will fans of the traditional Link suddenly not want Default Link Amiibos? Will the ability to change the gender or race of Link diminish your own personal like of the character?

EDIT: And again, let me emphasize that I'm not arguing that Nintendo SHOULD make these changes. I'm arguing that the people fighting against change don't really have a leg to stand on.

Why do you think that's a compeling reason? You don't even need to change Link to accomplish this. Just make a Zelda game with Zelda as the main character.

From Nintendo perspective why would they do this?
Is there any evidence that women are not playing Zelda games because Links is a guy?
All I see in mainstream about transforming Link into a woman is rage. The same rage responsible for Wind Waker not seeling well in west. Do you think that girl Link would attract more players than the quantity of people they would loose?

Link as a mascot comes even before the timeline stuff.

This the worst justification for something I have seen in years.

While I think that PR was bad I have no problem with this part. It's the same thing when a character from a book dies and you asks the author why and he says that he thought that way.
Much better than females are difficult to animate or female staff liked it.

 

[Silent_Ocarina]

Link was made a male before any implication of there being multiple Links. You can argue that Nintendo has the ability to make a female Link because of the way the lore is set up, but it seems rather clear to me that they created Link as a male character and always intended for him to be a male. I've said this before, but if a female Link were to be created, it should be because that's what Nintendo wants for its character rather than because of pressure from other people.

 

[DSix]

He was just trying his best not to say "The fastest and cheapest way to do it was to simply do palette swaps of Link, customization would costs staff time we've already put elsewhere since".

 

[PaperFlame]

Itll be cool to have a spinoff zelda game where you play as a female character in the zelda world, but the actual character in the main story...?

Its like trying to change Mario into a female character or changing a brand of a logo.

It would make sense if the game started as being customized in the beginning of the franchise, but it didn't and it really shouldn't change.

I'm all in for the spin off ideas because I love new perspectives in games and world building.

 

[QueenOfThorns]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think this is an issue in Japan as these things aren't taken to heart there the way they have been here lately.

I don't think anyone needs to correct you, you need to provide proof for your claim. You're saying that in Japan none of this stuff matters and there isn't any pushback. What evidence to you have to support that?


I could say that it's a major issue in Japan and I'd be just making stuff up too. I don't know. I think it's ridiculous to make a claim for an entire country without actually knowing what's going on.

Link was made a male before any implication of there being multiple Links. You can argue that Nintendo has the ability to make a female Link because of the way the lore is set up, but it seems rather clear to me that they created Link as a male character and always intended for him to be a male. I've said this before, but if a female Link were to be created, it should be because that's what Nintendo wants for its character rather than because of pressure from other people.

Nintendo should just re-release the Wii U again in 2016 with no upgrades at all and still using the gamepad because that's what Nintendo wants. I know they're getting pressure to not do that, but we should trust Nintendo's vision.

This is a massive billion dollar studio. They get pressure from everything. They are not freedom fighters fighting against the system.

Maybe they should just introduce Mii Links? Everyone like he/she wishes.

No one wants to look like a Mii. Ever.

 

[WowZipZipBoomBoomWow]

Forgive my ignorance here, but I missed the part where this interview was conducted by NeoGAF. This sentiment would be more on-point if it was all motivated by us here at Social Justice HQ. But it was an interview conducted by IGN. I think it's important to note that this sentiment isn't just guided by a bunch of whiny, know-nothing internet denizens that are always going to complain about the latest flavor of the month but is actually a part of a larger conversation happening industry-wide at the moment.

It seems more like a group of people demanding that this be an option in games (regardless of whether or not it fits the game) than a "larger conversation". Conversations involve multiple viewpoints, yet when Nintendo says there are story reasons for it (however lazy they may be) and that the lack of such an option doesn't affect how fun a game is people flatly reject the answer.

There's really no reason for such a change, and no reason to expect Nintendo to have designed the game with that change in mind.

Spoiler alert: The "not Link" characters will turn out to be Links from other timelines / realities / whatever, or there will be some equally thin in-universe explanation for how they're all the same hero.

 

[QueenOfThorns]

Itll be cool to have a spinoff zelda game where you play as a female character in the zelda world, but the actual character in the main story...?

Its like trying to change Mario into a female character or changing a brand of a logo.

It would make sense if the game started as being customized in the beginning of the franchise, but it didn't and it really shouldn't change.

I'm all in for the spin off ideas because I love new perspectives in games and world building.

Zelda should have never left the NES, then.

A spinoff game is going to have a...quite not the real deal stigma attached to it, one that you buy into as well seeing as how you wouldn't want this for a main story game.

I think you'll find very few people arguing for changing the main character of Mario to someone else. The reason this is common in the Zelda franchise is because Link is a new Link every game. Different characters with different personalities, motivation, whatnot. (supposedly)

It'd make plenty of sense to do for Zelda. They've already made the Mario games a lot more inclusive with selecting your character and such. So it's actually ahead of Zelda by a bit.

 

[balgajo]

Zelda should have never left the NES, then.

A spinoff game is going to have a...quite not the real deal stigma attached to it, one that you buy into as well seeing as how you wouldn't want this for a main story game.

I think you'll find very few people arguing for changing the main character of Mario to someone else. The reason this is common in the Zelda franchise is because Link is a new Link every game. Different characters with different personalities, motivation, whatnot. (supposedly)

It'd make plenty of sense to do for Zelda. They've already made the Mario games a lot more inclusive with selecting your character and such. So it's actually ahead of Zelda by a bit.

I don't think it's truth in the mainstream.

 

[QueenOfThorns]

I just saw them discuss this on CNN so I don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Of course it isn't common in the mainstream. We're on a video game discussion forum. Which is what you were talking about when you said that you don't see anyone asking for them to change Mario's gender.
Edit: Actually the Mario thing wasn't you. Got you mixed up with the other person who said that.

 

[B-Genius]

I see that as an acceptable answer. At the very least, it's far better than what was offered in the interview. As to the second question, I think it kind of undermines its validity if we're just trying to formulate a generic catch-all that's going to work in every situation. I'm not saying that it would never be a valid response, but it loses any touch of sincerity if it just gets tossed out for every challenge.

Again, I really feel like so much of the time we end up with these threads that are needlessly contentious. I don't feel like creative integrity is under a great attack here. An interviewer asked a question, expressed disappointment in the answer, and Nirolak thought it would make for an interesting thread. This isn't day 100 of feminist radicals sitting in at Nintendo HQ with demands that must be met. I think the goal of asking questions like this is just to get creators to think on a go-forward basis about this stuff.

If they do some soul-searching and come out the other side thinking "no, we wanted the character to be male," then that's fine. But in this process they might also be able to articulate their vision better than just offering a canned response. Or maybe -- and I think it's worth noticing that this has been happening a lot as of late and as such it continues to surprise me that people think that these questions are unnecessary and accomplishing nothing -- they come out the other side thinking "you know what, this is an easy change to make that will yield some good will for our next game. Yeah, we can add more diverse options for our player characters."

Thanks for the reply. I hope you understand that I'm not trying to be contentious.

Obviously if it's a copy/paste job for every developer who is challenged on this front, one would question the sincerity and how deeply they'd considered their options. I wasn't trying to suggest a generic catch-all in this sense.

What I am humbly suggesting is a case where every developer has given genuine forethought to their protagonist in every possible light, and makes a sincere statement in this regard when pressed for an answer on the topic.

I accept that the majority of game developers (especially on the senior creative side) are male, and that they are naturally more inclined to create a story about a male protagonist. Maybe their track record for exclusive female leads is 1 game out of 10. Is this still something they should be blamed for?

Maybe blame is the wrong word. Should they still be called out and challenged? They are simply doing what comes naturally to them. I'm not saying this was the exact case with Nintendo here; they certainly could have responded better. The balance of male/female has been skewed from the start, and shoehorning in "easy changes" - while maybe appeasing some people short-term - isn't necessarily going to fix anything long-term.

In my humble opinion, good writing and more female creators will establish the balance we're looking for. More options are always nice in the meantime, but not even options are a necessity.

 

[Silent_Ocarina]

Nintendo should just re-release the Wii U again in 2016 with no upgrades at all and still using the gamepad because that's what Nintendo wants. I know they're getting pressure to not do that, but we should trust Nintendo's vision.

This is a massive billion dollar studio. They get pressure from everything. They are not freedom fighters fighting against the system.

That's not even close to what I'm saying, but I appreciate the sarcasm.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

It seems more like a group of people demanding that this be an option in games (regardless of whether or not it fits the game) than a "larger conversation". Conversations involve multiple viewpoints, yet when Nintendo says there are story reasons for it (however lazy they may be) and that the lack of such an option doesn't affect how fun a game is people flatly reject the answer.

I honestly have no idea why you felt the need to put "larger conversation" in quotes as though it's something I've made up. If you have missed the many, many topics about concerns about better representation over the last several years, all I can say is that you have not been paying attention. I promise you that Nintendo isn't being singled out here, and this type of thing started long before this game was ever unveiled.

 

[iidesuyo]

No one wants to look like a Mii. Ever.

Back in 2006 Wii days many people thought Miis were cool and the future. Now everyone hates them. Whatever...

 

[Laughing Banana]

In every thread so far that I've participated discussing the idea of Female Link, it seems like the idea of making Zelda the lead character instead is viewed as not as favorable or valuable than playing as Female Link; there's this certain idea that making Zelda as the lead somehow make it less empowering than playing as Female Link, or by doing so the hypothetical game suddenly lose its eligibility to be called a "main game."

I find it really, really odd.

Anyways, on-topic: it probably would have been better for them to say that they're just cutting corners with the identical Link here instead of conjuring silly reasonings that anyone can see through anyways.

 

[Halifirien]

The biggest thing I've taken away from this thread is that Link has somehow become one of the greatest well defined characters in fiction with a personality and motivations that millions could describe.

I blame that 1980s cartoon that gave him the "Well EXCUUUUUUUUSE ME, Princess!" catchphrase.

 

[SixMachine]

In every thread so far that I've participated discussing the idea of Female Link, it seems like the idea of making Zelda the lead character instead is viewed as not as favorable or valuable than playing as Female Link; there's this certain idea that making Zelda as the lead somehow make it less empowering than playing as Female Link, or by doing so the hypothetical game suddenly lose its eligibility to be called a "main game."

I find it really, really odd.

Anyways, on-topic: it probably would have been better for them to say that they're just cutting corners with the identical Link here instead of conjuring silly reasonings that anyone can see through anyways.

I think Zelda, and by extension Sheik, have really cool movesets in both Smash and Hyrule Warriors. I would love to see them in a mainline game. To be honest, IDGAF about female Link because it would play just like Link at the end of the day, but a character using Zelda or Sheik's abilities as they are presented in other games would open a lot of gameplay opportunities.

 

[QueenOfThorns]

In every thread so far that I've participated discussing the idea of Female Link, it seems like the idea of making Zelda the lead character instead is viewed as not as favorable or valuable than playing as Female Link; there's this certain idea that making Zelda as the lead somehow make it less empowering than playing as Female Link, or by doing so the hypothetical game suddenly lose its eligibility to be called a "main game."

I find it really, really odd.

Playing as Zelda would be great, but it's a bit more of an uphill battle in regards to her being kidnapped in almost every game. That combined with Nintendo's lack of interest in changing up their stories...well.

Nintendo would have to change up their storytelling in a big way, which I'm all for. I'd love that. But it feels like that goes against Nintendo's philosophy with a lot of things.

 

[SoraanTribal]

I'd have rather them just have Zelda as a playable character in the game rather than making Link female. Link will always be a male character to me. I wouldn't care if they decided to change it, and it'd be kind of cool, but I still see Link as a guy after so many years. They could just make a new female character that you can play as, too.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Thanks for the reply. I hope you understand that I'm not trying to be contentious.

Obviously if it's a copy/paste job for every developer who is challenged on this front, one would question the sincerity and how deeply they'd considered their options. I wasn't trying to suggest a generic catch-all in this sense.

What I am humbly suggesting is a case where every developer has given genuine forethought to their protagonist in every possible light, and makes a sincere statement in this regard when pressed for an answer on the topic.

I accept that the majority of game developers (especially on the senior creative side) are male, and that they are naturally more inclined to create a story about a male protagonist. Maybe their track record for exclusive female leads is 1 game out of 10. Is this still something they should be blamed for?

Maybe blame is the wrong word. Should they still be called out and challenged? They are simply doing what comes naturally to them. I'm not saying this was the exact case with Nintendo here; they certainly could have responded better. The balance of male/female has been skewed from the start, and shoehorning in "easy changes" - while maybe appeasing some people short-term - isn't necessarily going to fix anything long-term.

In my humble opinion, good writing and more female creators will establish the balance we're looking for. More options are always nice in the meantime, but not even options are a necessity.

First of all, I would agree that "blame" is the wrong word. My interest in this is topic is never in condemning anyone as "bad" or "good." As for as challenging, I don't understand why doing so is ever a bad thing. I mean, it's not our place to force change. I'm not going to write my local congressional representative to pressure a Japanese company to add a female character to a video game. But simply saying "I'd like to see it"? I don't see the harm.

In general, I think people tend to have a distorted view of all creators as auteurs that are better off left completely alone and that any outside suggestions are tantamount to overbearing corporate overlords that are focus testing every aspect of design to hell and back. And I don't think that's the way things need to or even should be. Some outside ideas are great. Others may be stupid. But it's not like every outside idea poisons the creative process.

I think ultimately most people who care about this would probably be content just to see their concerns being taken seriously. Maybe you heard my idea, thought about it, and it didn't work for you. That's fine. But responses like this don't indicate that any serious consideration was given. And I think that's what causes the bulk of the backlash. Not "how dare you not cave in to my demands immediately!"

 

[DICKS AHOY]

In every thread so far that I've participated discussing the idea of Female Link, it seems like the idea of making Zelda the lead character instead is viewed as not as favorable or valuable than playing as Female Link; there's this certain idea that making Zelda as the lead somehow make it less empowering than playing as Female Link, or by doing so the hypothetical game suddenly lose its eligibility to be called a "main game."

I don't think having a playable Zelda in a mainline game over 'fem' Link is a less valuable idea, just a less likely one.

Going back to your earlier post in this thread about "How do you argue this without people calling you sexist" which I think I missed at the time, I think the main crux of the issue is there's no consensus over whether Link's an avatar or a proper character, or a weird mish-mash between the two, so people who think the former are going to naturally question why an avatar in a game having a gender option would cause problems for something as non gender-specific as a LoZ game. It's why you have people getting annoyed with the Samus or Mario comparisons because there's no real debate other whether those characters are actual characters or not, regardless of them being 'blank-slates' or not.

Personally I'll need some more Skyward Sword style plots before I feel Link's a proper, individual character, but unless someone outright says "I would feel uncomfortable playing as a girl in Zelda" or something to that extent, I don't really think it comes from some sort of subconscious issue with women. It's not a huge deal to me either way though, otherwise I'd have issues with the rest of the series which I very much don't

Spoiler

beyond design-issues with SS and TP

.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

I think the biggest mark against Zelda isn't that she's not a desirable choice from a player standpoint (I'd love to be able to play as her and/or Shiek), but just the design implications. I could see them making certain sequences where you play as Zelda in short bursts, but I don't see them designing a mainline game with Zelda as the main character or one with two interchangeable characters with different playstyles. I mean, it'd be cool if they did. I just don't think it'd happen.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

I think the biggest mark against Zelda isn't that she's not a desirable choice from a player standpoint (I'd love to be able to play as her and/or Shiek), but just the design implications. I could see them making certain sequences where you play as Zelda in short bursts, but I don't see them designing a mainline game with Zelda as the main character or one with two interchangeable characters with different playstyles. I mean, it'd be cool if they did. I just don't think it'd happen.

I could see maybe Sheik having a better chance, but they might see her as an even more obscure sell than regular princess Zelda and just regulate her more to a spin-off than a proper game like most people are suggesting.

It'd be great if Nintendo took Hyrule Warrior's success as a sign that a lot of these side-characters are popular enough to garner some audience in their own games. If it works for Mario (Luigi, DK, Wario, Yoshi, Peach, Bowser and even TOAD have their own games now), it could work for Zelda if they give it more of a chance than they did for Tingle.

 

[BGBW]

Uh, better representation of women/minorities in video games? To allow people to play as characters they can more easily identify with? Have you been paying attention at all?

And so what if Commander Shepard was customizable from the beginning? If Nintendo kept all the marketing, all the iconic Link designs, and simply added the ability to swap the gender or race of your character in the game, what changes? Will fans of the traditional Link suddenly not want Default Link Amiibos? Will the ability to change the gender or race of Link diminish your own personal like of the character?

EDIT: And again, let me emphasize that I'm not arguing that Nintendo SHOULD make these changes. I'm arguing that the people fighting against change don't really have a leg to stand on.

As I suspected, this debate has this perception that it is one sided and thus anyone against it is wrong because surly who in their right mind would be against this? Since you're in favour of change of course you're going to not find reasons against it as compelling. Here's a spanner for the works; I'm not against change, often play as female character, like customisation and honestly it would make no difference to me if Link was a female in the next game with no option to switch to male. Here's a kicker though, I never identify as Link so that whole aspect of the argument means nothing to me. However I'm not really a fan of debates where one side it portrayed as 'the bad side' which is why it may look like I'm on their side. Oh and by race I assume you mean skin tone since race in Hyrule refers to Hylians, humans, zoras, gorons etc and that wouldn't be as simply a switch as gender.

Wreck it Ralph 2 comes out and Link makes a cameo appearance. How should they look? This is what I mean by Link 'the brand'. Nothing in the story matters. Nothing the fans think matters. How recognisable they are to the general populace matters.

Talking of default Amiibo, how do you feel that male Robin is the only one with an Amiibo? As a result games like S.T.E.A.M. only allow you to play as him so fans of female Robin miss out.

 

[Nibiru]

That excuse is laughably bad!

 

[Zabi]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think this is an issue in Japan as these things aren't taken to heart there the way they have been here lately.

This is exactly why I feel people who are upset with gender politics in the game industry should simply ignore the western half of it and quit whining. If they are so paranoid that they are afraid that even Japan is "under attack" by so called SJWs (or whatever the term is), those paranoid gamers can check into the Chinese game industry.

 

[Freshmaker]

I think the biggest mark against Zelda isn't that she's not a desirable choice from a player standpoint (I'd love to be able to play as her and/or Shiek), but just the design implications. I could see them making certain sequences where you play as Zelda in short bursts, but I don't see them designing a mainline game with Zelda as the main character or one with two interchangeable characters with different playstyles. I mean, it'd be cool if they did. I just don't think it'd happen.

If Nintendo did, they'd be better off mot making the game play anything like what Link plays like. Zelda has a different skill set and all. They could play up the wisdom angle and make it more of a grand tower defense game. Focus on defending the realm before it falls, deciding where to deploy Link if it does etc.